Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[The Avalanches]

I think a suspect test is good to assess in-depth the impact something has on the metagame. I mean, we could take a look at Sun and Shadow Tag for example (neither of which are broken) and get some real perspective of how people feel about them, but without necessarily removing them.

In my opinion, Chinchou is in the same boat as Fletchling. It's versatile, and can annoy teams severely, but it's not broken in any way, it's just a really good Pokemon. However, like I said, I'm not against a suspect test just to take a deeper look at its presence in the metagame and get everyone's opinion.

 

[tcr]

The thing blarajan is that theres a vast difference between a Pokemon that is worthy of a suspect test (something that is so spectacularly broken, i.e. Swirlix, or something so spectacularly omnipresent, Gligar / Tangela) and a Pokemon that is simply "good." There is no need for a test involving Abra or Chinchou, as most people (feel free to disagree, this is supposed to spark a discussion) would agree that neither are inherently broken and neither are prohibiting team building. A suspect test at this time would simply be a waste, as it would force people to pick Pokemon that are just better than a lot, i.e. S-tier / A-tier, as opposed to actually broken / restrictive. Those are just my thoughts on why theres no need for a suspect test.

if we do a suspect test though, ban Mienfoo pls

 

[blarajan]

I couldn't care less if we suspected something inherently broken or if we suspected something we don't like. I put the tier in the hands of the players, and if enough people dislike something, I do not in any way mind examining it further and making it the subject of the conversation. If it becomes clear that it's just something no one likes but no one finds broken, we will pretty quickly come to the conclusion that it should not be banned. But the discussion that got us to that point is always valuable and always worth having. I look at suspecting much less strongly than most people. I just consider it a large discussion on a Pokemon where we analyze its faults and strengths and see if it's worth banning. I would have that discussion about Abra, Chinchou, Mienfoo, fucking Doduo if that's what the community votes for and wants to talk about. Suspecting a Pokemon is not as big of a deal as we seem to be making it.

 

[prem]

can we just ban diglett already trapping is bullshit

 

[Slashari]

I would have that discussion about Abra, Chinchou, Mienfoo, fucking Doduo if that's what the community votes for and wants to talk about. Suspecting a Pokemon is not as big of a deal as we seem to be making it.

I believe fucking Doduo is an animal rights violation and should be stopped immediately. I am very glad that you brought this potential suspect to light Blarajan--these are the traits that separate the good tier leaders from the bad ones (I don't see macle making any groundbreaking verdicts like this).

Really tho, Doduo is strong af, triple birdspam cores with Doduo + Fletch + Tailow have an insane amount of breaking power that many teams will be hard-pressed to stop.

 

[Superpowerdude]

This convo has gone all over the place lmao but Shrug just because Shellder isn't used much doesn't mean it's awesome with multi hit moves and priority Ice ice shard it can beat fletch and Abra which players commonly use as their only defense to set up sweepers on more offensive teams.

Abra although powerful can't actually OHKO a lot of things without hazard or Knock Off Support so it doesn't really have it's uses early game. Sure it can stop a lot of set up sweepers, so can Fletchling, so can fast scarfers meaning it has competition with other Pokemon for a team slot. Also look at the difference of usage of Abra for 1760 stats and below and it doesn't effect team building in any drastic way

 

[boo836]

Ban Pursuit imo because being trapped and killed 100% of the time is really restrictive for my teams and I don't like it

 

[Rowan]

So yeah, people should use Shellder more - literally one of the most anti-meta set-up sweepers right now, with Abra and Fletchling everywhere, and it can get past them both with multi-hit moves + ice shard.

Chinchou is versatile, and GlassGlaceon, I think you're wrong in saying that restalk is the best set. Although it can run voltswitch no restalk now, it still gives up momentum quite easily when it's asleep. Personally, I always go with Berry Juice + HP Grass/Ground, to counter opposing Chinchou, and usually run Hydro Pump>Scald cos I like the damage. Although, I do run eviolite with the same set, if I'm running Spritzee for wishpassing. Scarf Chou is kinda good too now, as most of the 17-24 speed range is pretty frail. Scarchou helps take on tirtouga, scraggy, abra, drilbur, gastly really easily. Final thing I'd like to say is RUN TOXICHOU. Seriously, I've been using Toxic Chinchou since the Murkrow era and I don't think anyone else has even picked up on it yet. It's great for Porygon, Cottonee, and Munchlax and stops it being hard countered by them. Any sweeper that likes Pory+Munch worn down really appreciates the support. It's also good for opposing non-heal bell chinchou. When I'm running the BJ set, I use hydro/voltswitch/hidden power, and then there's always room for a filler, which people usually give to heal bell, ice beam, thunderbolt, or soak, but for me Toxic is the best option if your team doesn't struggle with status.

As for prem's point, I did used to agree that Diglett's presence in the metagame was overcentralising and worthy of a ban, but at the minute, I've almost never seen FletchDig being used well. Are people just not using it because they're bored of it, or is there an actual reason why it seems to have died down? or am I just not noticing it?

 

[The Quasar]

...

In my opinion, Chinchou is in the same boat as Fletchling. It's versatile, and can annoy teams severely, but it's not broken in any way, it's just a really good Pokemon. However, like I said, I'm not against a suspect test just to take a deeper look at its presence in the metagame and get everyone's opinion.

I agree with you. But not for versatility. Fletching is always the same, what could you expect by "priority bird" newly? Chinchou could play different roles with its remarkable movepool.

 

[apt-get]

At this point, suspects end up just being everyone rational voting no ban and voters getting free 0.5 tiering badge points. I don't think we want people getting tiering contributor when they have done nothing for the tier

 

[prem]

At this point, suspects end up just being everyone rational voting no ban and voters getting free 0.5 tiering badge points. I don't think we want people getting tiering contributor when they have done nothing for the tier

real the only thing i want banned is diglett cause its dumb. and Rowan its probably cause people are bored with it. whenever i see fletchdig i still cry just as much and i havent used fletchdig lately cause its not suspect time but im guaranteed i can bs my way through ladder with a terrible fletchdig cottonee ziggy team cause again trapping is bullshitttttt

 

[Ary]

the legendary fletchdig is obviously the most broken combo in lc atm, ban chinchou and dig so it just becomes the legendary fletch. tbh imo js

 

[Dillon~]

Chinchou is a very good counter to fletchling, but so is any ground type if you predict the roost right.​

 

[The Avalanches]

Chinchou is a very good counter to fletchling, but so is any ground type if you predict the roost right.​

Chinchou is the best counter to Fletchling, it isn't beaten by any of Fletchling's strange coverage. Mispredicting a Roost is extremely dangerous, if they get to +2 on an Earthquake, they can just bop you.

 

[Dillon~]

Chinchou is the best counter to Fletchling, it isn't beaten by any of Fletchling's strange coverage. Mispredicting a Roost is extremely dangerous, if they get to +2 on an Earthquake, they can just bop you.

Yea, if you mispredict, your at risk of a 2hko then

 

[The Avalanches]

Yea, if you mispredict, your at risk of a 2hko then

You're at risk of being swept. Using a Ground move on Fletchling is completely reckless -- especially when most Ground-types already carry Rock-type coverage.

 

[Dillon~]

You're at risk of being swept. Using a Ground move on Fletchling is completely reckless -- especially when most Ground-types already carry Rock-type coverage.

Yea, either rock slide or stone edge is common

 

[Slashari]

Yeah, there's really no point in being flashy and predicting the Roost and going for EQ unless you absolutely need to. Fletchling is pretty frail and will go down to most STAB neutral hits. Going for EQ on a predicted Roost is an unnecessary risk and to beat a Poke as threatening as Fletch, you can't afford to make dumb plays.

 

[Dillon~]

Yeah, there's really no point in being flashy and predicting the Roost and going for EQ unless you absolutely need to. Fletchling is pretty frail and will go down to most STAB neutral hits. Going for EQ on a predicted Roost is an unnecessary risk and to beat a Poke as threatening as Fletch, you can't afford to make dumb plays.

Yea, even 1 mess up can cost you a valuable poke that can come in handy

 

[TUO]

i've been using shellder ever since fletchdig has become popular js. Just because something is threatening and punishes mistakes that doesnt mean there's no counterplay. tbh if you fuck up against hyperoffense or any good hyper offensive player+core you pretty much are at a huge disadvantage anyway. FletchDig is also more than one pokemon, cuz apparently some people think its just one poke (idek why). As it is more than one pokemon, it requires more than one slot on a team. This makes it much riskier to run that someone would think. Fletch with an SD also doesn't really KO everything (not saying its weak, but there are more pokes that live one than some of these people make it out to be) Next, a lot of things that switchin to fletch have a great offensive presence. A lot of people believed that the problem with krow was that most of its checks are rather loose checks and didn't pack enough offensive presence. This is far from the case with fletch as omanyte, shellder, tirt, chou, archen, scarf pawn (to an extent, unless you have no SR up or no prior damage, which you should have if you did damage rather than giving it a free turn) all pack offensive presence after either checking or switching into fletch. Yes not all of them can switchn in but those that check also pack enough offensive presence to threaten the team of the fletch user. TBH it's actually much better of a revenge killer than a late-game sweeper atm, and the fletchdig core is definitely top-tier, but the fact that people have kept it in the tier for so long, and even as suspected as not broken, now is said to have no counterplay. Fletch is not that easy to just slap onto the team unless you are playing against less experienced players.

Abra and Chou I really feel now are just finding things to ban. This metagame is stale, no one can deny this. However, finding whatever is efficient and top-tier and calling it broken is definitely not the right way to diversify the meta. We as the LC community really need to realize that just because the meta is stale there is no need to make the best mons seem broken.

Banning Abra and Chou might even be as much of an injustice as SM Ent getting rid of Jess imo (i just cant get over it)

 

[boo836]

You shouldn't be worried about fletch's weird coverage because Fletch shouldn't be risking the Scald burn (neither should diggy). Fletchdig is so far from broken guys. Most of the checks to Fletch can actually rekt a Dig switch with little cost (Chinchou, Archen, Tirt, Pawn).

Also, FletchGoth is superior anyways B)

 

[Yagura]

You shouldn't be worried about fletch's weird coverage because Fletch shouldn't be risking the Scald burn (neither should diggy). Fletchdig is so far from broken guys. Most of the checks to Fletch can actually rekt a Dig switch with little cost (Chinchou, Archen, Tirt, Pawn).

Remember that Fletchling has access to U-Turn and it's actually the glue of the FletchDig core which allows Fletchling to switch out into Diglett when predicting a switch into a Fletch counter, trap it and take it down (except if it's Archen). Yes, I understand that some of these counters can be scarfed (Chinchou) or carry priority attacks that can KO Diglett (Aqua Jet Tirtouga and Sucker Punch Pawniard) but it's worth noting that most Digletts are Focus Sash so it can still do its job perfectly even though it needs some prediction. Also, you can bait some Fletchling counters like Chinchou with letting KO something and take it down with Diglett easily allowing Fletch to sweep more comfortably. I'm not saying that FletchDig is broken and is worth a ban but it's not as easy to deal with as you say.

Also, FletchGoth is superior anyways B)

I can't tell if you're serious or just trolling but FletchDig is obviously better because Diglett traps and kills more Fletch counter than Gothita and it can get OHKOed by Pawniard and Chinchou can Volt Switch out of the trap, yes Gothita can trap and KO Archen something that Diglett can't do.

FletchDigGoth is actually really good as Diglett deals with stuff Gothita can't KO and trap easily and Gothita can KO Archen which is the only Fletchling counter Diglett can't trap.

 

[boo836]

Remember that Fletchling has access to U-Turn and it's actually the glue of the FletchDig core which allows Fletchling to switch out into Diglett when predicting a switch into a Fletch counter, trap it and take it down (except if it's Archen). Yes, I understand that some of these counters can be scarfed (Chinchou) or carry priority attacks that can KO Diglett (Aqua Jet Tirtouga and Sucker Punch Pawniard) but it's worth noting that most Digletts are Focus Sash so it can still do its job perfectly even though it needs some prediction. Also, you can bait some Fletchling counters like Chinchou with letting KO something and take it down with Diglett easily allowing Fletch to sweep more comfortably. I'm not saying that FletchDig is broken and is worth a ban but it's not as easy to deal with as you say.

Fletch spamming U-Turn doesn't really save it from chou when you consider that early game most people won't immediately go to chou these days. I've found Fletchdig astoundingly easy to play around with Chou+ another check.

I can't tell if you're just trolling or telling the truth but FletchDig is obviously better because Diglett traps and kills more Fletch counter than Gothita and it can get OHKOed by Pawniard and Chinchou can Volt Switch out of the trap, yes Gothita can trap and KO Archen something that Diglett can't do.

A little of both really. Goth has massive advantages over Dig but there's still a flaw concerning synergy, as both function as cleaners of sorts.

FletchDigGoth is actually really good as Diglett deals with stuff Gothita can't KO and trap easily and Gothita can KO Archen which is the only Fletchling counter Diglett can't trap.

Dedicating two support slots for something as heavily prepared for as Fletch isn't really the way to go. Often, teams like that will crumble because the opponent is able to assert a shitton of pressure. That's why Ziggy teams don't consistently perform well. Goth is capable of killing virtually everything that Diglett can, js.

Comments in Bold.

 

[prem]

please never use prediction and assumptions of people not switching pokemon in as an arguement. saying "people will not spam uturn cause no one brings chou in first turn" brings up the case of it just using acrobatics and ignoring chinchou the fact that chinchou on the team and isnt worth discussing

 

[boo836]

please never use prediction and assumptions of people not switching pokemon in as an arguement. saying "people will not spam uturn cause no one brings chou in first turn" brings up the case of it just using acrobatics and ignoring chinchou the fact that chinchou on the team and isnt worth discussing

I didn't say they wouldn't spam U-Turn early, I'm just saying that no rational player is going to switch Chou early game vs a fletchdig team. It's not really an assumption so much as a general rule that people have become used to.