Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[prem]

so not switching your check into the pokemon meant to check it because of diglett has made fletchdig easier to handle? that sounds so dumb lol

 

[TUO]

uh no matter what anyone says chinchou doesn't really beat fletchdig ever unless Rocks are up and the Chou is either scarfed or has soak or smth. However, the point that i mentioned a bit ago still stands, you are using two pokemon for this. It's not one poke with no counterplay because of trapping (what some people make it out to be) it is a core of two pokemon that has a cool dynamic (U-Turn+Trapping) that have a couple hard counters and multiple loose checks. Also, I know with defog and not much good spinblockers its a bit hard to get hazards on the field, but hazards are still a very real thing in this game, and that really affects both members of the core pretty badly. It's scary offensive presence given the right conditions is really what makes it great, and a good player can get themselves into these positions if he plays the U-Turn mindgame right, but Chinchou is not the only check in the world to the mon, AND the situation for trapping doesn't appear every single time, as there might be something else that you'll need to revenge with Dig (just an example)

 

[Heysup]

I'm not exactly sure who's arguing what, but I guess my original post kind of sparked a different discussion going on at the same time as this chinchou and fletchdig one....

Blarajan already confirmed what I said about the ban philosophy thing, being that we can ban for shits and giggles if we want. However, the reasoning that's being given right now appears to be solely about "brokenness" and I have to, again, point out that we are kidding ourselves if we think these things are broken.

There are annoying strategies that can be nominated and banned because they are annoying (not that I necessarily agree with that reason, tbh). Fletchling + Diglett is not even used that often (honestly, I haven't seen anyone else use it since Missy was banned) and while it's "annoying" to be trapped because you have to be careful with your grounded checks and avoid being outplayed (the horror!), it's not so different from simply just using a lure or an unexpected move. I would never ban anything like Swords Dance Mienfoo because it's annoying that when I switch my counter in, I have to be conscious of whether or not I can potentially just lose the game if it's SD Mienfoo. It's annoying and anti-meta but it's part of the game.

If you want to ban something because it's annoying, own it. Don't try and prove how it's broken or impossible to beat because it's really not. If we're trying to suggest things are broken instead of "it's annoying" just because one sounds better than the other, then I think the philosophical question of why to ban something is already answered.

 

[boo836]

so not switching your check into the pokemon meant to check it because of diglett has made fletchdig easier to handle? that sounds so dumb lol

What I'm saying is that the early U-Turn's always predictable and most often than not the safest move to use.

I and others have established both in this thread and in other discussions that Fletch almost always needs two checks. That isn't due to Diglett, but just from the the fact that you gain momentum when you answer their checks and force a switch. You could make other pairings that threaten Fletch's common switch-ins (Drilbur comes to mind), and while they aren't as effective as trapping, they can also typically be a bit more flexible or otherwise still get the job done. Outside of Fletchling, there's no other mon that Diglett could pair up with to similar effect (save maybe Ziggy but DigZig doesn't synergize as well as people hype it). I suggest that if you have an issue with DigZig that you look at the real problem and not the aspect you just find annoying.

 

[Shrug]

Would a Meditite retest be that absurd? It's slow, gets donked by Fletch (which is everywhere and probably not leaving) also loses to any faster mon who isn't taken out by Bullet punch, and just doesn't seem particularly broken. If I'm wrong by all means let me know (I didn't play in the Tite meta, so if it was truly crazy-broken just say so) but from reading the banthread it seems as if Meditite was banned for breaking stall too easily. but stall nowadays can afford to run Slowpoke / Spritzee and still check an abundance of threats. Just an idea.

 

[doomsday doink]

Would a Meditite retest be that absurd? It's slow, gets donked by Fletch (which is everywhere and probably not leaving) also loses to any faster mon who isn't taken out by Bullet punch, and just doesn't seem particularly broken. If I'm wrong by all means let me know (I didn't play in the Tite meta, so if it was truly crazy-broken just say so) but from reading the banthread it seems as if Meditite was banned for breaking stall too easily. but stall nowadays can afford to run Slowpoke / Spritzee and still check an abundance of threats. Just an idea.

Yes, Fletchling "donks" on Meditite, but that's only if Fletchling gets a safe switch into it and Meditite doesn't switch out. Meditite doesn't just break stall, it breaks everything and its Speed can be easily compensated with Choice Scarf. No Misdreavus also means it's easier to just spam HJK, pretty much rekking anything that doesn't resist it. Also, to put its power into perspective, with a Choice Band, Meditite can 2HKO Spritzee with HJK. If Meditite was to be brought back, Misdreavus would need to come back as well, and that unravels the past two suspect tests for no reason really.

 

[zf]

Would a Meditite retest be that absurd? It's slow, gets donked by Fletch (which is everywhere and probably not leaving) also loses to any faster mon who isn't taken out by Bullet punch, and just doesn't seem particularly broken. If I'm wrong by all means let me know (I didn't play in the Tite meta, so if it was truly crazy-broken just say so) but from reading the banthread it seems as if Meditite was banned for breaking stall too easily. but stall nowadays can afford to run Slowpoke / Spritzee and still check an abundance of threats. Just an idea.

On top of what Fizz said, I'd like to add that Meditite has ways to beat its best counters by running a coverage move or Tricking them a scarf. Slowpoke gets 2HKO'd by Adamant Thunderpunch and Spritzee is 2HKO'd by Poison Jab or LO Zen Headbutt. Scarf tears apart everything but Slowpoke and Spritzee and LO Tite kills them (and everything else it manages to hit). LO Fake Out+BP kills Fletch after SR if Jolly, so there's that too. It's way too good and needs to stay banned.

 

[zeriloa]

Would a Meditite retest be that absurd? It's slow, gets donked by Fletch (which is everywhere and probably not leaving) also loses to any faster mon who isn't taken out by Bullet punch, and just doesn't seem particularly broken. If I'm wrong by all means let me know (I didn't play in the Tite meta, so if it was truly crazy-broken just say so) but from reading the banthread it seems as if Meditite was banned for breaking stall too easily. but stall nowadays can afford to run Slowpoke / Spritzee and still check an abundance of threats. Just an idea.

idk how you have the idea that tite loses to any faster mon that can take a bp. tite's good bulk with evio (most common set) and powerful recovery in drain punch let it beat plenty of faster mons - its not something like gastly thats a complete glass cannon.

 

[Shrug]

Welp my bad didn't know it was so good sorry!

 

[TUO]

If we can talk about things that we can suspect because of how annoying it is, can we discuss switching in a chinchou into another chinchou?

 

[blarajan]

no

 

[prem]

what is there even to discuss about it lol

 

[Corporal Levi]

Pardon me because this is almost entirely unrelated, but it doesn't look like the thread is going very far as it is.
For the past few days, I've been asking around as to what people who are at least somewhat active in the current metagame think are their personal top 20 or so Pokemon in the current metagame, because I enjoy ranking things and was curious as to what other people think, and I think the results have been pretty interesting.
Please please please keep in mind that this list is EXTREMELY subjective, so don't take anything to heart; I just figured some other people might find the results entertaining, so I have decided to share them.

Individual lists

If anybody who I have included would like their name and/or list removed from here (specify which or I'll credit the list to anonymous), contact me and I will do so.
This should be common sense, but don't please publicly bash people for their lists in a hurtful manner. Excluding myself and Starmaster, of course, I included each of these users because they are active and, at least in my eyes, competent and respectable LC players.
If anybody's wondering, these lists are just ordered by when I got them.
Anonymous
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Chinchou
4. Fletchling
5. Foongus
6. Drilbur
7. Ponyta
8. Timburr
9. Archen
10. Tirtouga
11. Spritzee
12. Ferroseed
13. Magnemite
14. Vullaby
15. Abra
16. Porygon
17. Gastly
18. Omanyte
19. Staryu
20. Croagunk
21. Snubbull
22. Bunnelby
23. Carvanha
24. Diglett
25. Cottonee
26. Gothita
27. Zigzagoon
28. Vulpix
29. Scraggy
30. Trubbish
31. Corphish
32. Hippopotas
33. Lickitung
34. Bellsprout
35. Torchic
36. Larvesta
37. Doduo
38. Slowpoke
39. Cranidos
40. Wynaut
41. Houndour
42. Shellder
43. Dwebble
44. Elekid
45. Koffing
46. Lileep
47. Surskit
48. Pumpkaboo
49. Aipom
50. Shellos

zeriloa
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Chinchou
4. Drilbur
5. Archen
6. Abra
7. Ponyta
8. Timburr
9. Carvanha
10. Magnemite
11. Fletchling
12. Tirtouga
13. Cottonee
14. Vullaby
15. Ferroseed
16. Foongus
17. Spritzee
18. Bunnelby
19. Omanyte
20. Croagunk

[20:14] boo836:uh mienfoo, pawn, aipom, fletchling, chinchou are top 5 I think
[20:14] boo836:wait what
[20:14] boo836:I thought you meant
[20:14] boo836:Usage
boo836
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Fletchling
4. Chinchou
5. Abra
6. Tirtouga
7. Spritzee
8. Gastly
9. Drilbur
10. Archen
11. Timburr
12. Gothita
13. Cottonee
14. Ferroseed
15. Foongus
16. Croagunk
17. Porygon
18. Magnemite
19. Omanyte
20. Zigzagoon

Superpowerdude
1. Mienfoo
2. Fletchling
3. Pawniard
4. Chinchou
5. Drilbur
6. Tirtouga
7. Archen
8. Timburr
9. Foongus
10. Ponyta
11. Abra
12. Magnemite
13. Spritzee
14. Croagunk
15. Ferroseed
16. Bunnelby
17. Omanyte
18. Gastly
19. Corphish
20. Diglett

Tahu
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Chinchou
4. Fletchling
5. Archen
6. Drilbur
7. Spritzee
8. Abra
9. Ponyta
10. Tirtouga
11. Magnemite
12. Timburr
13. Foongus
14. Ferroseed
15. Vullaby
16. Croagunk
17. Diglett
18. Omanyte
19. Gastly
20. Gothita
21. Bunnelby
22. Carvanha
23. Cranidos
24. Taillow
25. Zigzagoon
26. Shellder
27. Trubbish
28. Cottonee
29. Larvesta
30. Hippopotas

Starmaster
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Timburr
4. Chinchou
5. Drilbur
6. Fletchling
7. Archen
8. Spritzee
9. Magnemite
10. Larvesta
11. Ponyta
12. Ferroseed
13. Foongus
14. Carvanha
15. Scraggy
16. Cottonee
17. Abra
18. Vullaby
19. Zigzagoon
20. Croagunk

Yagura
1. Chinchou
2. Mienfoo
3. Pawniard
4. Fletchling
5. Abra
6. Gastly
7. Drilbur
8. Timburr
9. Spritzee
10. Tirtouga
11. Archen
12. Magnemite
13. Porygon
14. Snover
15. Cottonee
16. Ponyta
17. Omanyte
18. Bellsprout
19. Croagunk
20. Ferroseed

Eren Yeagar
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Chinchou
4. Abra
5. Fletchling
6. Foongus
7. Spritzee
8. Porygon
9. Ferroseed
10.Archen
11.Drilbur
12.Timburr
13.Ferroseed
13.Tirtouga
14.Ponyta
15.Magnemite
16.Vullaby
17.Omanyte
18.Snubbull
19.Cottonee
20.Bunnelby

Sparkychild
1. Fletchling
2. Mienfoo
3. Chinchou
4. Archen
5. Drilbur
6. Tirtouga
7. Foongus
8. Ferroseed
9. Ponyta
10. Vullaby
11. Trubbish
12. Gothita
13. Diglett
14. Pawniard
15. Spritzee
16. Porygon
17. Timburr
18. Cottonee
19. Larvesta
20. Abra

GlassGlaceon
1. Pawniard
2. Mienfoo
3. Fletchling
4. Drilbur
5. Chinchou
6. Foongus
7. Ferroseed
8. Abra
9. Magnemite
10. Ponyta
11. Archen
12. Spritzee
13. Diglett
14. Hippopotas
15. Vullaby
16. Gastly
17. Larvesta
18. Timburr
19. Trubbish
20. Scraggy

Tricking
1. Porygon
2. Drilbur
3. Pawniard
4. Spritzee
5. Foongus
6. Fletchling
7. Archen
8. Diglett
9. Timburr
10. Magnemite
11. Chinchou
12. Staryu
13. Abra
14. Gastly
15. Ponyta
16. Larvesta
17. Mienfoo
18. Pumpkaboo
19. Gothita
20. Slowpoke
21. Stunky
22. Tirtouga
23. Dwebble
24. Cottonee
25. Taillow

apt-get
1 Mienfoo
2 Chinchou
3 Drilbur
4 Archen
5 Larvesta
6 Omanyte
7 Pawniard
8 Fletchling
9 Shellder
10 Abra
11 Ponyta
12 Cottonee
13 Croagunk
14 Gothita
15 Vulpix
16 Scraggy
17 Dwebble
18 Tirtouga
19 Timburr
20 Staryu

Heysup
1. Mienfoo
2. Fletchling
3. Pawniard
4. Abra
5. Tirtouga
6. Chinchou
7. Archen
8. Drilbur
9. Magnemite
10. Timburr
11. Zigzagoon
12. Vullaby
13. Carvanha
14. Spritzee
15. Cottonee
16. Ferroseed
17. Foongus
18. Ponyta
19. Porygon
20. Diglett
21 Trubbish
22 Dwebble
23 Croagunk
24 Gastly
25 Honedge
26 Gothita
27 Larvesta
28 Shellder
29 Doduo
30 Scraggy
31 Omanyte
32 Staryu
33 Munchlax
34 Bunnelby
35 Snubbull
36 Vulpix
37 Onix
38 Elekid
39 Riolu
40 Shellos
41 Tyrunt

Obvious Power
[18:45] Obvious Power:can you make sure to point out how
[18:45] Obvious Power:my list is the real one
[18:45] Obvious Power:with the most accuracy
[18:45] Obvious Power:and the others sucl
[18:45] Obvious Power:suck
[18:45] Obvious Power:thanks i look forward to seeing it
God. Squirtle
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Chinchou
4. Archen
5. Drilbur
6. Fletchling
7. Foongus
8. Ponyta
9. Spritzee
10. Ferroseed
11. Tirtouga
12. Timburr
13. Porygon
14. Abra
15. Diglett
16. Vullaby
17. Omanyte
18. Snubbull
19. Magnemite
20. Trubbish

DatCoconut
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Fletchling
4. Chinchou
5. Timburr
6. Archen
7. Drilbur
8. Magnemite
9. Abra
10. Foongus
11. Ponyta
12. Spritzee
13. Ferroseed
14. Croagunk
15. Carvanha
16. Vullaby
17. Cottonee
18. Porygon
19. Tirtouga
20. Bunnelby

ZoroarkForever
1. Chinchou
2. Mienfoo
3. Fletchling
4. Ponyta
5. Abra
6. Archen
7. Drilbur
8. Foongus
9. Spritzee
10. Timburr
11. Ferroseed
12. Tirtouga
13. Vullaby
14. Porygon
15. Corphish
16. Croagunk
17. Carvanha
18. Omanyte
19. Diglett
20. Trubbish
[20:36] Overlord ZF:personally, I find pawn mediocre whenever I use it
[20:36] Overlord ZF:most teams are prepared for it
[20:37] Overlord ZF:i.e. hp fight foongus+mienfoo is annoying
[20:38] Overlord ZF:prevalence of fighting types really I guess

Champion Fizz
1. Mienfoo
2. Pawniard
3. Archen
4. Drilbur
5. Chinchou
6. Ferroseed
7. Abra
8. Tirtouga
9. Foongus
10. Diglett
11. Timburr
12. Larvesta
13. Fletchling
14. Spritzee
15. Vullaby
16. Houndour
17. Shellder
18. Ponyta
19. Magnemite
20. Carvanha

The Avalanches
1. Pawniard
2. Fletchling
3. Mienfoo
4. Abra
5. Chinchou
6. Drilbur
7. Spritzee
8. Tirtouga
9. Timburr
10. Foongus
11. Ponyta
12. Archen
13. Magnemite
14. Diglett
15. Ferroseed
16. Cottonee
17. Bunnelby
18. Vullaby
19. Gastly
20. Porygon

Goddess Briyella
1. Mienfoo
2. Chinchou
3. Fletchling
4. Pawniard
5. Abra
6. Archen
7. Drilbur
8. Bunnelby
9. Ponyta
10. Croagunk
11. Timburr
12. Omanyte
13. Diglett
14. Cottonee
15. Tirtouga
16. Gothita
17. Munchlax
18. Dwebble
19. Foongus
20. Slowpoke

macle
1. Fletchling
2. Mienfoo
3. Pawnaird
4. Archen
5. Foongus
6. Tirouga
7. Drillbur
8. Ponyta
9. Ziggy
10. Timburr
11. Magnemite
12. Diglett
13. Cottonee
14. Abra
15. Gastly
16. Omanyte
17. Croagunk
18. Carvanha
19. Spritzee
20. Chinchou

Hawkstar
1. Timburr
2. Mienfoo
3. Abra
4. Fletchling
5. Drilbur
6. Archen
7. Carvanha
8. Foongus
9. Spritzee
10. Pawniard
11. Porygon
12. Magnemite
13. Bunnelby
14. Larvesta
15. Chinchou
16. Ponyta
17. Croagunk
18. Tirtouga
19. Diglett
20. Vullaby

I know I've missed quite a few users that I would otherwise want to include, mostly because I haven't been able to catch them on PS!.
If anybody else would like to submit their list, I'll include it here but since this is a really subjective list and solely for interest's sake anyway, I might not update the overall standings.

Overall

I probably made quite a few addition errors because I'm not very good at that kind of stuff, so if anybody notices something wrong, please let me know.
The layout is
Ranking. Pokemon - Sum of ranks given

All lists:
1. Mienfoo - 45
2. Fletchling - 94
3. Chinchou - 107
4. Drilbur - 124
5. Archen - 144
6. Abra - 177
7. Timburr - 212

Twenty lists:
1. Pawniard - 74
2. Tirtouga - 215
3. Ponyta - 222

Nineteen lists:
1. Foongus - 188
2. Spritzee - 203

Eighteen lists:

Seventeen lists:
1. Magnemite - 200

Sixteen lists:
1. Ferroseed - 206

Fifteen lists:
1. Porygon - 204
2. Cottonee - 258

Fourteen lists:
1. Vullaby - 212
2. Diglett - 217
3. Omanyte - 225
4. Croagunk - 235

Thirteen lists:

Twelve lists:

Eleven lists:

Ten lists:
1. Gastly - 156
2. Larvesta - 175
3. Bunnelby - 189

Nine lists:
1. Carvanha - 158

Eight lists:
1. Gothita - 145

Seven lists:
1. Trubbish - 153

Six lists:
1. Zigzagoon - 111

Five lists:
1. Scraggy - 110
2. Shellder - 122
3. Dwebble - 123

Four lists:
1. Staryu - 83
2. Snubbull - 92

Three lists:
1. Corphish - 65
2. Hippopotas - 76
3. Slowpoke - 78
4. Vulpix - 79

Two lists:
1. Taillow - 49
2. Munchlax - 50
3. Bellsprout - 52
4. Houndour - 57
5. Cranidos - 62
6. Doduo - 66
6. Pumpkaboo - 66
8. Elekid - 82
9. Shellos - 90

One list:
1. Snover - 14
2. Stunky - 21
3. Honedge - 25
4. Onix - 37
5. Riolu - 39
6. Tyrunt - 41
7. Squirtle - God

Again, all of this is very subjective. I'm sorry if this post doesn't belong here, but I thought it would be more interesting than the mostly back-and-forth argument that has been going on thus far.

 

[Heysup]

yea prem and blarajan = discussion killers.

Corporal Levi saves the day.

The things I found most interesting are that Ziggy and Vanha are so low. They are like the scariest two Pokemon ever for an offensive team (the former rekts stall with Substitute or an Encorer). I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that put Zigzagoon in the top 15.

 

[macle]

i had ziggy at 9 you goon. Also i forgot chinchou exists so levi should put it at 20 instead of trubbish

 

[gali]

My main problem with Zigzagoon is that it requires a lot of support to be used effectively and you're essentially playing 6-5 until you've set up the necessary conditions to sweep. You also need Memento support, which is really exploitable with Pawniard or difficult to set up with lots of offensive pressure. It also can't set up on anything with Knock Off and more than 13 speed, which is a pretty wide category. Sure, it's scary and destroys stall, but so does LO Pawn (try running this sometime zf, it's the best set and more than pulls its weight), which doesn't require a team built around it. Don't get me wrong, it's still probably the best dedicated wincon in the tier, but it's not nearly as defining as you make it out to be.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Yea, I've never been swept by Zigzagoon. The whole setup is way too obvious and easy to prevent before it happens. I can see why it's powerful, but it requires way too much support that can end up flopping hard if the opponent keeps their Pawniard or Archen in good health or if the player makes a bad move or incorrect prediction.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

If we can talk about things that we can suspect because of how annoying it is, can we discuss switching in a chinchou into another chinchou?

Guys I'm pretty sure TUO was being facetious and stating that suspecting Diglett or Arena Trap because it's annoying is asinine just as suspecting switching Chinchou into Chinchou would be.

 

[prem]

Yea, I've never been swept by Zigzagoon. The whole setup is way too obvious and easy to prevent before it happens. I can see why it's powerful, but it requires way too much support that can end up flopping hard if the opponent keeps their Pawniard or Archen in good health or if the player makes a bad move or incorrect prediction.

really? ive never really thought it needed support lol. most of the time i just pressed belly drum on a random timbur or mienfoo cause i was guaranted itd use knock off and then proceeded to win. but then again im ballsy af with my setups because its easier to win like that in my head but yeah

Guys I'm pretty sure TUO was being facetious and stating that suspecting Diglett or Arena Trap because it's annoying is asinine just as suspecting switching Chinchou into Chinchou would be.

i dont think diglett is annoying i think it, and trapping as a concept, is just flat out broken.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

really? ive never really thought it needed support lol. most of the time i just pressed belly drum on a random timbur or mienfoo cause i was guaranted itd use knock off and then proceeded to win. but then again im ballsy af with my setups because its easier to win like that in my head but yeah

I'm not talking about preventing the setup. I'm saying even if Zigzagoon successfully sets up, it can't sweep if the opponent has Pawniard or Archen in good health and hits Zigzagoon with any attack from any Pokemon on the turn it uses Belly Drum. If I see Zigzagoon at Team Preview (usually accompanied by Diglett), my main priority for the whole battle is preserving my Normal resist no matter when it might come in handy, so I can be safe. It might get one kill, but I get to pick what dies. There's also Gastly, which auto-wins against Zigzagoon 100%.

 

[prem]

oh well i use ziggy more as a weaken the shit up and then fletchling sweep cause its true flying is better than normal while doing the samething. i mean espeed does like 80% to itemless archen so its not like its weak even against resisted hits

 

[Superpowerdude]

^teams like this are very effective because diglett synergies well with both Fletch and Zig, being able to trap common checks to both and allow them to set up easier with memento support. The both share similar checks like Tirtouga, Archen, Pawnaird so even when one doesn't sweep with Zig, fletch can come and clean up. A combination of Extreme Speed and Acrobatics makes it practically impossible to revenge kill this core too.

I know I pretty much repeated most of what prem said but still I felt like agreeing here. zigzagoon does indeed need a lot of support to get its job done

Thanks or posting Corporal Levi I'm looking forward to reading the lists properly later :)

 

[skies]

At the moment I don't feel like a suspect test for anything is in place. Nothing truly stands out to me as a 'broken pls ban' Pokemon. I definitely do not think Chinchou is broken by any means. While it's a top tier threat, I don't think it's truly broken in a sense. I'm slowly becoming more integrated into the recent LC, hadn't played in a bit, and it's pretty clear Chinchou is amazing, there's no denying it. But, what makes it banworthy? Sure, it's a fantastic Pokemon in like all aspects but what truly makes it shine as 'banworthy'? I'd like to compare Chinchou to Meditite, not in terms of how they play or the Pokemon themselves [COMPLETELY different], but of the two one of them is clearly banworthy and you know it. Maybe it's just my way of thinking, but Pokemon jump out at me when they scream "BAN ME" and Chinchou doesn't have that. It's fantastic, and a suspect test to see what people think is neat, but overall I don't think it deserves the ban in the long run.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

There was talk of Gothita being potentially suspect-worthy. I know prem and a few others have expressed that trapping abilities as a whole might be broken. I've never had a problem with Diglett or Gothita to that degree, but how does everyone here feel about trapping abilities in Little Cup, specifically Shadow Tag Gothita and Arena Trap Diglett?

 

[Heysup]

The most underestimated thing about Zigzagoon (besides +6 power, like pawniard/archen taking like 70% itemless) is the fact that it's an anti-sweeper. What I mean is the most common threatening sweepers like Fletchling and Carvanha lose to it because of +2 priority. Nothing can really beat it in that regard.

Also, not that I want to bring it up again but you cannot honestly call trapping broken, specifically on those weak ass mons. Annoying, hard to play against, maybe, but not broken. There's other shit that's more annoying to me.