Can we guys fucking stop talking about Blissey? She has no reason to go unranked. Thank you.
I used to pretty much have your exact stance on Clefable, until I made a good team with it. First of all, its stats are mediocre, but they're just high enough to let Clefable to what it wants to do, which is to tank certain hits to let it set up Calm Mind, Wish, SR, be a nuisance with Knock Off, and absorb status. If you give it the right role for your team and play it well, it will nearly always fulfill its job against nearly every team. It needs practically no support, which is a huge plus, and if you do decide to give it support in the form of pretty much any steel-type teammate, it does even better.I'm a decent player, I've used a lot of teams and a lot of pokemon, but can never get my head round Clefable.
I really don't get it. I've never seen it do all that well and it certainly doesn't seem consistent to me. It has mediocre power and decent bulk, so stat wise isn't anything great. It does have fantastic typing, 2 great abilities and a plethora of options, but none of them scream A/S rank to me. I don't know, I've never seen it do work and have never liked it when using it.
So basically, I'm asking what all the fuss is about. Maybe I've been using the wrong set/team for it, but I just don't get it. It never does all that well. Maybe I need advice on how to use it?
For me Clefable is nowhere near S rank, but I'm not a top player - I like to think I'm above average, mind - so my opinion is based on personal experience and not a lot more.
After posting my post, I tried it out again and started to see what the fuss was about. I'm not sure it's S/A+ Rank, but I understand what people are saying now. I used a simple CM set and it did set up with insane ease, though is generally stopped quite easily. It's good though.Clefable gives the opponents almost no room for a misplay. If you let it get to +2, you're toast. And getting to +2 involves one small misstep at best.
It pairs so well with so many other pokes too. Use it with moonlight and Char-Y and you have an easy switch in and several turns of super recovery to set up with. Pair it with Tar/Drill and you have a switch in to their fighting checks that takes nothing from sand damage. Pair it with almost anything dangerous, frankly, and you lead your opponents into a deadly guessing game.
This is what "glue" is. And this is why it is so horrible to face. I switch Clefable in to something -- one of many things -- that can essentially do nothing to it. What do you do next? Am I going to set up, hit Moonblast, hit Flamethrower or double-switch? Guess wrong and you're screwed.
And with Magic Guard, I can come in as often as I want without worrying about hazards or random toxic or burns.
For me, Clefable is most definitely one of the toughest things out there. It's an implacable, derpy tank of doom.
Didn't say its not, in my post I actually agree with it being great mon, but not good enough to be S rank in my opinion.Life Orb Clefable really works due to its Magic Guard ability of not taking any damage from non-damaging attacks and status from toxic and burn. Clefable has actually been proven to being very useful in OU along with being a celtic.
Technically speaking, there are reasons to both rank and not rank Blissey, but I agree we should not be talking about it right now, as been by the crappy discussion that we had a few weeks ago.Can we guys fucking stop talking about Blissey? She has no reason to go unranked. Thank you.
Blissey is better in stall vs stall, and it does not get screwed by Knock Off Landorus-I. Chansey is better in every other way (besides no Leftovers) but agreeing that Blissey should be ranked for that niche against Landorus has helped it find its place on some of my balanced builds.Technically speaking, there are reasons to both rank and not rank Blissey, but I agree we should not be talking about it right now, as been by the crappy discussion that we had a few weeks ago.
the azumaril could come in after you used it. EXE. a t-tarWhy would you Hammer Arm if you are checking Azumarill? Chesnaught is very good at checking/countering common threats but you shouldn't spread it too thin either. I'm one of the bigger fans of Chesnaught but it's not going to fight off Tyranitar, Excadrill and Azumarill in a row. AV Azu is very similar, it can take out one or two troublesome special attackers a match, but if you repeatedly overwhelm it with strong special attacks it will fall as well.
Fire Blast OHKO's the most defensive of Mega Scizor after SR, don't see how this is manhandling considering Scizor can't threaten unless it's boosted...
Bisharp can't switch in, but yeah Bisharp is a check and you wouldn't set up calm mind with that thing around.
Mew does wall with Taunt/Knock Off, I'll give you that.
It's not easy to just come in and 2HKO Clef after two calm minds. There are few Pokemon with that power, and most that have it are taken out by Moonblast at 2+ after a little prior damage.
You also have to consider Clefable's sets outside of Calm Mind. You can have a SR or Wish set with EV's to check Greninja (sometimes when I'm on a new account I just use Cosmic Power Clefabe to 6-0 lower ladder teams). It's just a super useful defensive Pokemon for nearly any team, a glue is the definition of this Pokemon. It's definitely a better candidate for S rank than, say, Heracross, seeing as Heracross is only really useful against stall/bulkier balance while Clefable pulls its weight vs. pretty much any team.
-Most Clefable run fire coverage which can most likely OHKO while Scizor can't do the same back. Clefable wins 1v1, while Scizor beats Tyranitar 1v1. pretty much all offensive Clefable run fire coverage, only some bulky Tyranitar do, it's not the best comparison.Scizor's bane is and always has been Fire Blast.
But think about this like you would Tyranitar - Scizor usually can't OHKO TTar with Bullet Punch while TTar can OHKO with Fire Blast. We still have always considered Scizor a way to handle Tyranitar, though.
The game is more about simple isolated calculations. OHKO and 2HKO calculations are nice and handy, but those are not what make situations.
The fact remains that Clefable usually cannot maintain enough good offensive and defensive momentum to truly threaten any good offensive team or even balanced team (this applies to Scizor's and Bisharp's situations) like a real S-Ranked Pokemon would be able to.
Also, why is it that in all your situations, Clefable somehow is getting to +2 unhindered, while the opponent's Poekmon are assumed to have prior damage. Any setup sweeper with 2 turns to setup and a weakened enemy team will wreak havoc lol
Anyone who keeps Geninja in on a healthy Clefable, or allows the themselves to be swept by Cosmic Power Clefable, deserves to lose.
The things it has going for it:Can someone provide me some sort of reasoning as to why Noivern is ranked at C-? Like outside of the obvious traits perhaps cause I really don't see how you would consider this equally viable to the likes of something like Slowking for example.
You know, I'm kind of with you on Exploud; I'm not sure what exactly it still has going for it enough to warrant a ranking. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of Nidoking atm, as both are underwhelming 'mons with a bit of a bite to them that allows them to hit a few things pretty hard, but still lack any real power and have no real bulk. And the thing about that is that we don't have Nidoking ranked, so I'm not sure Exploud still deserves a spot. Unless I'm missing something too? But from what I can see, Exploud is an underwhelming wallbreaker that has a mediocre speed tier, less than optimal bulk, okay coverage, and one good STAB move that still isn't all that great. Even though it has a niche against a few substitute users, (especially ghosts that forget about scrappy) it doesn't really seem worth a teamslot on a serious OU team to me. So unless someone knows a good reason to keep Exploud ranked, I'm going to go ahead and nominate Exploud for Unranked.Can someone provide me some sort of reasoning as to why Noivern is ranked at C-? Like outside of the obvious traits perhaps cause I really don't see how you would consider this equally viable to the likes of something like Slowking for example.
Maybe some discussion on Exploud as well. It was really good on TR teams back when Aegislash was around cause of scrappy but you have plenty of other wallbreakers to consider before you go and pick something like Exploud. Is it C- for being a specially offensive wallbreaker in TR or am I missing something that somehow makes it still relevant in todays metagame?
Yeah, I guess TR is enough of a niche. I haven't run into a good TR team in a good long while, but that could just be me. Of course, that's still a slim niche either way, so I'm not sure Exploud warrants a C- rank if TR is the only thing it's good for anymore. So how about Exploud for D? Fair?Exploud's main niche is on trick room teams. There, it has a big difference over Nidoking, in that it has one super spammable move (well, lower speed too, but that just means it's less viable on other teams). That means the opponent can't stall trick room turns by constantly switching to things that resist the move you were going to use, because there simply isn't much that wants to take Exploud's specs boomburst even if they know it's coming.
I've used Exploud on successful TR teams before. On offensive teams, there really isn't much that can prevent Exploud from OHKOing 2-3 things easily. It can even get past some of it's would be bulky counters like Heatran or Ferrothorn. It's also useful because the only thing switching in completely safely is Chansey, and you can just double switch into your physical TR sweeper with little prediction. Exploud definitely isn't as useful on TR as Mega Hera or Crawdaunt, but it can survive any priority besides Breloom's LO Mach Punch and OHKO's so many things it's crazy. I personally think it's fine in C-, but I wouldn't mind it dropping to D if people think C- is too good.Yeah, I guess TR is enough of a niche. I haven't run into a good TR team in a good long while, but that could just be me. Of course, that's still a slim niche either way, so I'm not sure Exploud warrants a C- rank if TR is the only thing it's good for anymore. So how about Exploud for D? Fair?
Noivern sits at a speed tier higher than Greninja, which is usually fucking the majority of offensive teams, and it does this without needing to Mega Evolve first like Manetric or something like that. For Hyper Offensive teams that lack room for another Mega because another one fits better than MMane does, it's a fit, being one of the only things on offence able to check it that isn't a Mega Pokemon. It also hits rather hard and has Infiltrator, which is a massive fuck you to sub. With that speed and how hard it can hit, it can be a massive problem for offensive teams, or could run taunt and switcheroo (one that bypasses the sub!) to fuck stall up. I think it's worthy of C- and should remain there.Can someone provide me some sort of reasoning as to why Noivern is ranked at C-? Like outside of the obvious traits perhaps cause I really don't see how you would consider this equally viable to the likes of something like Slowking for example.
Could someone link me the post of Greaninja's S rank reasoning? If itsn't to post this in here I'm sorry, just curious.
There you go.Greninja: A+ -> S
I'm aware this will be a controversial nomination but I firmly believe Greninja is a threat of the highest level and deserves the highest rank on this list.
No other Pokemon poses a threat to both offensive and defensive teams the way Greninja does. Its depth of coverage (and the power each move has) combined with Hydro Pump's "just enough" power makes it incredibly hard for defensive teams to switch into. About the only thing that can is Chansey, and not all teams can run it. Mixed Defenses Clefable can take a couple of Hydros, but it has to be very careful and the mere presence of Greninja on the opponent's team means it's forced into its recover very often to avoid being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Other checks such as Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur simply get owned by the appropriate coverage move, which by the way you can almost never tell until it has used it. About offensive teams, Greninja is fast enough to outspeed every non scarfed Pokemon except for a couple of Megas which lets it clean a lot of teams extremely easily once a few things have been weakened. Sets such as AV Azumarill can slow it down for a while but it's never a full stop to Grass move Greninja. Don't forget that Greninja resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch, meaning that not all priority can take it down easily. Scarfers may revenge kill it, but they absolutely cannot switch in, so what's stopping Greninja from simply switching out and coming back later to kill more stuff?
As I said before, Chansey is able to stop Greninja pretty easily. However, one move changes everything: Spikes. Spikes Greninja takes full advantage of Chansey, because if it switches in (and trust me, it will), it guarantees at least two layers for the Greninja user, three if Chansey decides to stay in. It can't even Thunder Wave it because of the Ground typing. You could switch to a Defogger, but Greninja actually owns every single one of them. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and the Lati twins are going to get mauled by STAB Ice Beam, while Skarmory and the odd Scizor are destroyed by Hidden Power Fire. The fact that Greninja is able to take such advantage of its one true counter is incredible and makes it infinitely more viable.
Greninja is absolutely metagame defining, consistent and threatening to all playstyles, which in my book fits the S rank perfectly.