Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Test - Stuck In The Middle With You

[shrang]

I brought it up cause it was your flawed and misleading argument.

1: The abuser controls

elaboration

That external factor is actually under the control of the abuser. I start that random number generator when I click on the move Swagger just like how I start the Shadow Tag trapping by clicking on Gothitelle or the sleep spam by clicking on Dark Void. I might be doing so without knowing the eventual outcome of that click but that would be the same thing as me covering up my opponent's side of the field (team, active mon, etc) and clicking Gothitelle or sleep. If I were to remove that covering I may find I just brought Gothitelle in on an Yveltal or clicked sleep on an Noctowl, or I've got Goth in on Chansey / slept the opposing Pokemon.

The abuser is always under control of the use of uncompetitive elements. They might not know the outcome but a common compensation for that is using things like SpDef Kyogre for your Sheer Cold spamming or prankster Substitutes for your Swagger spam to give you a bit more control over the outcome by playing to the only thing you do know about the random number generator: laws of probability.

Um... you sure?

The result depended on decisions made by both players. It's different from every other ban we've had (with the exception of Sleep Clause, which I've gone into in detail). For the other bans based on uncompetitiveness, be it Moody or Swagger or OHKO or Evasion in the past, you could outplay your opponent and still lose because the result depended on an external factor that is not in the control of either player.

Yeah, I'm sure. ~MM2

Your examples are just a few hypothetical scenarios for an end-game. So, yes, it is the result of choices you and your opponent made. The thing is, it's the result of a LOT of choices you and your opponent made. Those two players went through a full early-, mid-, and most of the end-game to arrive at those last, final turns.

This is not the case with Shadow Tag. First of all, we don't know if this Klefki hypothetical (or any other Tag scenario but it's simpler to keep the same one) took place in the early-game, or in the mid-game, or in the end-game. Hell, it could have taken place on the very first turn. That's a lot of possible choices, sometimes even all of them, that have been taken away from the game. At any point Shadow Tag can come in and take away control of the game's events from the victim, just like every other banned element.

Funny, I'd have thought that an "endgame" is merely the end stages of a game, no? So really, you don't have to go through 30-40 turns every game just to reach an "endgame". You can have a turn 1 6-0 GeoXern sweep and still have an "endgame".

Regardless, the timing of Klefki being trapped is irrelevant. The "victim" has resources (and choice) available to him to avoid being trapped and swept regardless of when in the game it might happen. To be frank, if you got swept because you got Klefki (or anything else trappable by Gothitelle) trapped on turn 1 AND you didn't have anything else that could at least get you back into the game (even disadvantaged) after your first Pokemon went down, then you probably 1) made an incredibly crappy decision in sending out your first mon (I mean really, why would you send out a S-tag weak mon like that) AND 2) you've made a incredibly shitty team that couldn't even stop a Gothitelle sweep (eg Dark-type, really strong physical moves, anything moderately bulky that can at least phaze out a +6 Goth, etc). It's almost like as if you're using Level 56's team, lead with Scolipede when the opponent leads with GeoXern and you lose from turn 1 flat. You can tell me that's a horrible example because it's frankly bad play (and questionable team too), but so is your "turn 1 sweep by Gothitelle" scenario. That Zekrom vs Groudon/Ghostceus scenario could have happened on turn 4 for all we know (if not exactly the same position, something very similar). You only assumed that it took many turns. Sure, only a terrible team would be in that situation where the Zekrom would be face, but this applies just as much to your examples of Gothitelle sweeping entire teams in a die-if-you-do-die-if-you-don't scenario. It would take just just as bad a player (or at least just as massive a choke) using just as bad a team to have Gothitelle sweeping and winning single-handedly on turn 1 or relatively early from the "early-game".

Point of the matter is that the "victim" here still retained choice, it's just they completely squandered that choice. It really doesn't matter "how many turns" of "choice" you get, it's the fact that you have the choice to avert getting destroyed when it counts. Some choices are more important than others, and if you screw those up, you'd be in a greater chance of losing. You have no-one else to blame but yourself if you squander that choice.

 

[Lemonade]

I'm not really convinced removing the ability to switch / choice is uncompetitive as it is imbalanced. There isn't really a chance factor for the side using STAG, if I have HP Fire Gar yeah I'm going to trap Steels and kill them. They have a clear advantage in my opinion. Swagger is different because the user can still be screwed if the opponent breaks through with boosted Attack, just as the opponent is screwed if they hit themselves. There is no clear advantage and it actually comes down to a coinflip.

 

[MMII]

Shrang, I'll blame the player for being so stupid as to check a Ygod with their Keys and for their shitty teambuilding when you can show me just one team that is immune to Shadow Tag and adequately handles the rest of the metagame.

I'm not really convinced removing the ability to switch / choice is uncompetitive as it is imbalanced. There isn't really a chance factor for the side using STAG, if I have HP Fire Gar yeah I'm going to trap Steels and kill them. They have a clear advantage in my opinion. Swagger is different because the user can still be screwed if the opponent breaks through with boosted Attack, just as the opponent is screwed if they hit themselves. There is no clear advantage and it actually comes down to a coinflip.

Sleep Clause?

I may not be the best at arguing, but I'm going to say a few things on this, since I main ubers on Nintendo's servers and things:

1. Shadow Tag is one of those things that is probably not going to be broken in the hands of a n00b player or even an intermediate player. They are going to trap or set up on the wrong things and they are probably going to get killed, especially in a tier of ubers where 2HKO's without Stealth Rock go around like candy. This being said, in the hands of a master, it can be devastating. Extremely devastating. I remember playing Wobbuffet's coming in on sweepers back in the 3rd Gen, and it would be a 1 for 1 kill using Counter or Mirror Coat. Mega Gengar has the same ability to do this via Destiny Bond. From the official tournament standpoint, Wobbuffet with Leftovers was banned in an ubers tournament in the 3rd Gen for being broken to the point it can recover and take out multiple Pokemon.

2. I think Gothitelle is far far worse than Mega Gengar honestly. While it doesn't have the sheer power or speed, it can perfectly back up Mega Gengar using Destiny Bond or Perish Song very nicely because of its bulk. It traps then uses Protect, and is a total terror to take down with any type of regularity, and you get one shot to OHKO it. If you don't you're losing something. I'm going to reiterate though this takes skill, and a n00b would not be able to take any type of advantage of it.

3. I don't see Shadow Tag'ers every day. I think in about 200 ubers battles this generation battling all kinds of tiers, I only saw one trapping team, and that was in an official tournament. It is definitely not an overused strategy by any means, but painful when you see it.

4. This is where I could make an argument for Shadow Tag being an uncompetitive force: There are gamers that are enough off assholes to run Gengar or Gothitelle on something that can't do anything back, like an Eviolite Chansey. The player could run some stall 120 PP set on it to make sure that it never runs out, and the Chansey is absolutely helpless there stuck for 15 minutes to a half hour (or more), and there is nothing the player can absolutely do about it. While I'm generally not that dickish to do something like that to someone, I'm sure that it has happened to someone either on PS or the Nintendo servers, and it can be a most frustrating thing to deal with, and it just wastes valuable time you can do something else with.

All being said, I think this is more of an elitist thing, and if I had reqs, I would go with no ban on this. That being said, there have been bans in official tournaments before (ubers JAA nonetheless), so this has precedent, and in the VGC Mr. Pak showed how nasty this can be if played in the right hands to the point it could very well see another ban in the official circuits. If #4 becomes a real issue and disrupts games, I'd ban it on the server without even a suspect test. In that fact it's probably worse than any of the luck-clauses could ever be.

I'm out on this.

-James

This is a post I had meant to bring up a few times before but forgot to every time. I don't know a lot of the things you are bringing up cause they seem awfully old so if you could clarify thatd be hot. What is ubers JAA? Another ban in the official circuits? Does that mean Tag was banned in VGC before? Wasn't Lefties Wobb banned in gen 3 cause of the infinite struggle wars that two Wobbs could get trapped into?

 

[Lemonade]

don't want to get too off topic, but I went back and read the BW Sleep Clause discussion and policy was not as clear cut as it is now. Unless there is some gen 6 sleep clause vote not in PR or metagame forums I don't really think it's relevant.

 

[MMII]

don't want to get too off topic, but I went back and read the BW Sleep Clause discussion and policy was not as clear cut as it is now. Unless there is some gen 6 sleep clause vote not in PR or metagame forums I don't really think it's relevant.

You can find the gen 6 sleep clause suspect for ubers in the old bw forums. I completely misread your post lol. (and mixed up gen numbers) It would still be relevant, though, in that it's an existing clause with the same difference from Swagger that you highlighted with Shadow Tag. (clicking Dark Void has a clear advantage)

 

[Lemonade]

Yes, clicking Dark Void gives you a clear advantage. However, when Sleep Clause was retained, policy was different than it is now (as seen by posts in the discussion thread. Unfortunately votes did not have paragraphs), so it is not valid to say because Sleep Clause was retained, STag is uncompetitive. That is, unless you can show that when Sleep Clause was continued into XY there was discussion based on the current policy

 

[MMII]

Current policy is same as policy then. Discussion posts don't dictate policy. Although, I'm not sure what you are looking for here, tbh.

 

[Lemonade]

All I'm saying is infinite Sleep is OP so Shadow Tag is also OP ie not uncompetitive

 

[MMII]

Why can't it be both? How does Tag / Sleep / whatever being OP make it not uncompetitive?

 

[Lemonade]

It could be both if there are aspects that are uncompetitive, which I'm not finding. This post from the previous suspect thread, from my interpretation, is ruling out things that are OP as being uncompetitive, so the single aspect of Shadow Tag in that it removes choice is OP but not uncompetitive. Other uncompetitive clauses don't bear the similarity to Shadow Tag to make the ability uncompetitive, as I illustrated in my first post.

 

[MMII]

It could be both if there are aspects that are uncompetitive, which I'm not finding. This post from the previous suspect thread, from my interpretation, is ruling out things that are OP as being uncompetitive, so the single aspect of Shadow Tag in that it removes choice is OP but not uncompetitive. Other uncompetitive clauses don't bear the similarity to Shadow Tag to make the ability uncompetitive, as I illustrated in my first post.

No it's not? It's saying don't focus your discussion on showing how Gengar is OP as compared to showing how Gengar is uncompetitive. Replace OP with purple is what I'm saying.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

All I'm saying is infinite Sleep is OP so Shadow Tag is also OP ie not uncompetitive

Yeah this is nice but if you want to make this into an argument you're going to have to prove 1.) why shadow tag does not remove choice, or doesn't do so to a degree it can be considered uncompetitive and 2.) you're also going to have to prove stag=sleep in terms of why/how it was banned. As mm2 said, policy/reasoning basicly were the same and sleep was removed for removing a significant amount of control and making it so worse players could luck out better players by creating a matchup that is always in the sleep-user's favor. Damn, that SURE sounds familiar to stag and what we're discussing now.

The reason why shrang stopped arguing about how similar stag is to sleep (or at least, this is what seems logical to me) is that sleep was proven competitive (=precedent) and that its near impossible to argue that stag doesn't have the same effects as sleep does. On top of that its also damn near impossible to try and start a legit anti-ban argument that isn't easily dismantled in 10 secs because, in the end, stag still is uncompetitive and I haven't seen anyone prove it isnt. Shrang, if you could maybe summarize your posts/points to like a concrete bullet point list that would also be helpful I guess :]

 

[Zebstrika]

Shrang, I'll blame the player for being so stupid as to check a Ygod with their Keys and for their shitty teambuilding when you can show me just one team that is immune to Shadow Tag and adequately handles the rest of the metagame.

Sorry I'm not shrang, but why would you need the team immune to shadow tag? I haven't seen any ubers teams that are "immune" to geoxern (example) and never get messed up by them in any battle, at least not teams that can also handle the rest of the metagame as you said.

Just the way that you said it needs to be "immune" to shadow tag and "adequately handle" the rest of the meta seems like a double standard here.

 

[Lemonade]

No it's not? It's saying don't focus your discussion on showing how Gengar is OP as compared to showing how Gengar is uncompetitive. Replace OP with purple is what I'm saying.

If something is only OP, it is not grounds for a ban.

STag is only OP, I don't see how removing the ability to switch is also uncompetitive. It gives the STag user a clear advantage, isn't that what overpowered means? Where is the missing factor of luck present in Swagger or OHKO moves?

Also sleep was proven competitive when quite a few posts in the BW discussion thread clearly referred to it as overcentralizing only, which again is not grounds for a ban (posts arguing STag is overcentralizing only so ban it would be deleted in this thread, would they not? So how is policy the same as back then?). I'm not even the one who brought up Sleep in the first place, I wasn't trying to use it in my argument.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Sorry I'm not shrang, but why would you need the team immune to shadow tag? I haven't seen any ubers teams that are "immune" to geoxern (example) and never get messed up by them in any battle, at least not teams that can also handle the rest of the metagame as you said.

Just the way that you said it needs to be "immune" to shadow tag and "adequately handle" the rest of the meta seems like a double standard here.

not mm2 but, I dont think he was saying that at all. yeah, there is no way to not be stag weak unless you're going to be using mono-ghost. you don't need a team immune to tag, one that doesn't get buttfucked by it is fine too. but you are not really proving anything by what you're saying because, since you cant be immune, stag will always remain uncompetitive.

handling stag fine is good enough, stag is still uncompetitive
using a team with mono-ghost, stag is still uncompetitve, just cant abuse it on your ghosts (which doesnt adequately handle the meta)

 

[shrang]

Shrang, I'll blame the player for being so stupid as to check a Ygod with their Keys and for their shitty teambuilding when you can show me just one team that is immune to Shadow Tag and adequately handles the rest of the metagame.

Nobody's contested that you can reduce your Tag weakness and still have a solid team. Dice has a full thread of those, it'd be stupid to argue that.

What's being contested is the constant argument that comes up that basically blames the victim for losing to Shadow Tag. You can remove but not eliminate every possible Shadow Tag weakness and I've yet to see a team that proves that false.

Can we start addressing the real culprit of this issue here, Shadow Tag, and discuss if it is uncompetitive or not?

You just answered your own challenge just a while back. Why do you need a team that's immune to Shadow Tag? Like Zebstrika said, you don't need a team totally immune to GeoXern or any other threat in Ubers. What makes Shadow Tag so special that you need a team totally immune to it? I'll find you a team that's totally immune to Shadow Tag when you can tell me why it's relevant to the tier. I'll paste orch's post from earlier because I think it explains very nicely:

Not to mention that you can simply use offensive mons that are least effected by Shadow Tag and click attack and kill these pokemons... If you still think that you need counter/reliable check for everything to have a successful ubers team, then you're teambuilding wrong. Even BW Ubers had this issue. You cannot check everything in ubers metagame. This is not arguable. You can give me any ubers team and I'll find a specific pokemon and its set that will seriously threaten the team. It's just the nature of Ubers, since it's inherently unbalanced, so it's always match up based. There's no need to be hyperbolic and claim that it's impossible to construct a team that minimize the impact of Shadow Tag. It's a threat, just like all other mons in the metagame.

Also, the whole "give me one example of a S-tag immune team" does not address anything I've said in the last few posts (even though it was in response to it), and (let me remind you) that is that choice is available to the player to avert the possibility of being beaten due to S-tag. It still doesn't change the fact that you got outplayed instead of any other reason. You know, I can give you a counter-challenge: Why don't you find me a team that is totally immune to Rock Polish Groudon that adequately handles everything else? I bet you can find me plenty of them. However, that doesn't change the fact that you can still force people into the Scarf Zek vs Ghostceus/Groudon example from before. In short, your request for a completely immune to S-tag team that handles everything else that still adequately covers everything else does not address anything about what you've been trying to argue, namely how S-tag denies meaningful choice or denies the "victim" control. You seem to have trouble grasping the concept that just because you can switch does not automatically mean you have control, and via the same logic, just because you can't switch doesn't automatically mean you've lost control.

not mm2 but, I dont think he was saying that at all. yeah, there is no way to not be stag weak unless you're going to be using mono-ghost. you don't need a team immune to tag, one that doesn't get buttfucked by it is fine too. but you are not really proving anything by what you're saying because, since you cant be immune, stag will always remain uncompetitive.

handling stag fine is good enough, stag is still uncompetitive
using a team with mono-ghost, stag is still uncompetitve, just cant abuse it on your ghosts (which doesnt adequately handle the meta)

Not to go into why this argument is terrible (actually you know what I will after this), why are we even arguing about this then? Why are we arguing such a criteria (and therefore "immunity to S-tag") if you're going to come up with a conclusion that S-tag is uncompetitive regardless?

Anyway, now to address why it is terrible, the reason being that Ubers has been a "tier" (for the lack of a better word) for 5 generations where we don't give a shit that you can't be "totally immune" to threat X, Y, Z. There has never been a perfect team to check every threat in metagame or even be totally immune to any one threat, for that matter. Most Ubers have, at the very least, obscure ways to beat all of their counters, if they wished to. If you're going to call that "uncompetitive", then I'd suggest that you take "uncompetitive" out of the reasons why we ban things in Ubers, because that's exactly what Ubers was, is and always will be: uncompetitive (by that definition).

 

[faint]

I'd just like to say that I find it very interesting how many of you failed to address the inability to switch as your primary ban argument during the Mega Gengar suspect but have sense moved your entire platform to focus around that idea. Perhaps it was because your vote was not counted, I don't know, but this doesn't change the fact that Shadow Tag has been prevalent for three entire generations prior to XY. You would think as we continue to add stronger and stronger mons into the game threats like Shadow Tag would become LESS of an issue, but here I see the complete opposite. I'm not saying you're wrong if you believe it should be banned, that is completely subjective, but I do believe many of you are clinging on to the next best alternative to find a reason to ban it just because you want it gone so badly.

Also, I personally find the entire X makes Y argument completely flawed. Plenty of mons have been introduced over the years that have made something else irrelevant / drop in usage / effectively removed as a threat. If you are really trying to push a ban using that logic you are completely ignorant to every generation shift that has occurred over the past 10 years. Just my two cents.

My opinion on Shadow Tag has not and will not change. It is in no way uncompetitive, broken, or "fundamentally removing an imperative aspect of the game." You choose what gets trapped and you have options to prevent a mon from getting trapped. You should always be thinking about what the goal of your opponent is. Is he trapping my X mon to setup with his Y mon? What advantage does my opponent gain from trapping my mon? etc.

Also status moves are a pretty important part of the game so let's ban Taunt. jajaja

 

[pokemaster12321]

Hello everyone. I have never participated in any suspect test bar the Gengarite test, so please excuse me if I come off as ignorant. I am not at all inexperienced in the Ubers tier, having played more matches than I care to admit. However, I am failing to understand the definition of "uncompetitive" as has been posted many times by Melee Mewtwo. He posts:

Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

Is this not using the word in its own definition? How can that make any sense whatsoever? That would be like saying "The definition of brown is: Brown objects are those that reflect dull colors-- and do so to a degree that they can be considered brown." What? Without finding a way to define that degree, this definition is meaningless. Using a word in its own definition is a fallacy known as circular definition.

By extension, using that provided "definition" for uncompetitive, can we not put Taunt up for the same discussion? It takes autonomy away from the player, and I suppose it does so to a degree that "CAN" be considered uncompetitive (which has never been adequately defined).

Since the supposed "uncompetitiveness" of Shadow Tag is the crux of this entire debate, I think it is absolutely meaningless to continue until we have a definition of the word that does not succumb to the fallacy of circular definition.

Also, please don't focus too much on my brown example. It's late, and I'm having a hard time coming up with a better example, but my main point is entirely unaffected by the strength of my example.

 

[shrang]

Hello everyone. I have never participated in any suspect test bar the Gengarite test, so please excuse me if I come off as ignorant. I am not at all inexperienced in the Ubers tier, having played more matches than I care to admit. However, I am failing to understand the definition of "uncompetitive" as has been posted many times by Melee Mewtwo. He posts:



Is this not using the word in its own definition? How can that make any sense whatsoever? That would be like saying "The definition of brown is: Brown objects are those that reflect dull colors-- and do so to a degree that they can be considered brown." What? Without finding a way to define that degree, this definition is meaningless. Using a word in its own definition is a fallacy known as circular definition.

By extension, using that provided "definition" for uncompetitive, can we not put Taunt up for the same discussion? It takes autonomy away from the player, and I suppose it does so to a degree that "CAN" be considered uncompetitive (which has never been adequately defined).

Since the supposed "uncompetitiveness" of Shadow Tag is absolutely the crux of this entire debate, I think it is absolutely meaningless to continue until we have a definition of the word that does not succumb to the fallacy of circular definition.

Also, please don't focus too much on my brown example. It's late, and I'm having a hard time coming up with a better example, but my main point is entirely unaffected by the strength of my example.

I'd also like to add that even if the definition is a good one, there will be different interpretations of the definition because of how subjective it is. This is actually something I wanted to bring up quite a while ago when we were arguing about the definition, but it slipped my mind. It's one thing for me to question why we are using a definition that the OU council has come up with, there's also another matter entirely in the way many of the pro-ban faction interpret this definition.

 

[Toshhy]

Why are we having a shadow tag suspect test when the suspect testing for Mega-Gengar concluded in no ban?

Should shadow tag get banned, it would countradict the verdict on Mega-Gengar.

Let's face it. Mega-Gengar is the reason for this shadow tag suspect. Pro-banners are unhappy with the result from the original testing and wanted a second chance it seems.

In the Uber context:

Shadow Tag requires skill to use => it is not uncompetitive.

Uncompetitiveness should be the requirement for ban => no ban

• A successful trap by your opponent does not 100% ensure that you will lose. It is not a 1-2 step.
• You using Shadow Tag does not take control out of the hands of the opponent. The opponent has control leading up to the trap, hence influencing the trap.
• Mega-Gengar requires a turn to trap. Moreover, Ghost types cannot be trapped. Can be phazed out.
• You lose the ability to switch, but you still have control of what moves to choose and its not like Mega-Gengar will live any attack from ubers.

Banning a Pokemon from uber will set a bad precedent for the tier. I'm not using this as an arguement just pointing it out.

And yes testing to ban shadow tag is a camouflaged method to ban a Pokemon from entirely.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Alright so I am actually going to help shrang out as I feel he's having to fight a one-man war against Melee Mewtwo and everyone else, and he has actually managed to change my opinion from viciously pro-ban.

Personally I think that all this throwing around of the word "uncompetitive" is a load of rubbish. The premise of Shrang's argument is that Shadow Tag can be built around and can be used by both players, so you cannot really say that it is "unfair" because both players have access to it. If one player brings Kyogre / Arceus / Xerneas and the other brings Deoxys-N / Garchomp / Gardevoir, then the player with the less overpowered team cannot complain about his opponent having the advantage as he too can use Kyogre / Arceus / Xerneas. The tier is unbelievably centralized and that's not been a problem, so saying that Shadow Tag is centralizing is no good because you CAN prepare for it. You can argue that you can prepare for it and still lose, but isn't that true for so many things? You can bring your Giratina-Origin / Scizor core to cover yourself against Extremekiller and then lose to Fire Blast / Shadow Claw, for example. You can bring your sturdy Klefki along then get sniped by Xerneas once or twice and suddenly you can't check it anymore (or you can lose to Xerneas that run specific investment to make Substitutes unbreakable by Play Rough).

Something else that I think Melee Mewtwo is not realising or not admitting is that the "you can prepare for it but lose to it anyway" works in both ways. Let's go through the different methods of dealing with Shadow Tag:

Punishment Arceus - loses to Charm Gothitelle. But what if the Gothitelle is Trick Room or Heal Bell? you can contently let them get to +6 then snipe them with Punishment. "But I prepared my Gothitelle for Support Arceus with Taunt!". Too bad, you lost your Shadow Tag user.

Roar Arceus - loses to Taunt Gengar and Taunt Gothitelle. But what if the Gothitelle is Charm? you contently let it Charm you to -6, then smile as you Roar it away as it goes for Calm Mind number 5 or 6. "But I prepared for Punishment / Poison Jab / Waterfall / whatever Arceus with my Gothitelle!" Too bad, you can do nothing.

Earthquake 176+ Arceus-Grass - loses to Gothitelle (unless you run Bullet Seed and it doesn't have Charm), but outspeeds and surprise KOes Gengar. "But i prepared for Grassceus by adding Gengar to my team with Scarf Kyogre and Specs Palkia!" yeah well you got sniped by Earthquake, sucks to be you.

"But I don't want to run shit moves on my mons so that I don't lose to Shadow Tag!" Yeah well I don't want to have to run Palkia on 70% of my teams so I don't lose to Scarf Kyogre. I don't want to run Steel-Types that suck ass just so that I don't lose to Xerneas. I don't want to run Thunder Wave Palkia to insure myself against Xerneas. But I HAVE TO because Ubers is and always has been a tier that is CENTRALIZED. You can argue about being forced to run X mon for Y, or A move for B mon, or not being able to use X Y or Z because Xerneas sets up all over them, but that has never been an issue. Like Minority Suspect said, if we have to run Defog Arceus-Ghost on every team alongside Shed Shell Palkia, then that's how it will be.

Also, arguing that "well all these moves like Thunder Wave Kia also come in handy against Support Arceus so that you can outspeed, Klefki can also set up Spikes and Prankster Twave a rampaging Blaziken, Scizor can also handle Extremekiller, you may be semi-forced to run these things but at least they don't ONLY insure you against Shadow Tag / whatever, and even then you can still lose!" Dragon Tail Kia can phaze out Calm Mind Arceus-Water and Calm Mind Kyogre, Earthquake Grassceus can get the jump on Dialga / Heatran etc.

All I know is I don't complain when I prepare for Extremekiller with Giratina-Origin and then I get smacked by Shadow Force, or when I run Arceus-Ghost and lose to Refresh Jolly Extremekiller. I think what some people need to admit is that they are using "uncompetitive" as a fancy word to hide what they truly want Shadow Tag banned for - Shadow Tag turns games into a bag of dicks, ruins the ONLY element of the game that we play it for - TO ENJOY OURSELVES. I know I don't enjoy Gothitelle slowly maneuvering during 40 turns so that it can get 4 Trick Room turns to sweep instead of 3, and making sure that it's at 90% health instead of 80% health when it kills the Support Arceus. I also despise the way that Gengar can snipe something that otherwise runs a train over my opponent's team because oh look, it Taunted my +6 Arceus as I tried to dodge Destiny Bond and now it can cheaply KO Arceus without any repercussions, taking away the fact that I outplayed my opponent and exposed a flaw in his teambuilding that meant he lost 6-0 to Calm Mind Arceus-Water. Not a SINGLE person can honestly argue that they enjoy playing against Shadow Tag, and I challenge anyone who thinks that Shadow Tag leads to a positive metagame that is made better by Shadow Tag's presence to speak up and post right here explaining why they think so. Right now I am still pro-ban, but not because I think it is "uncompetitive" or "removes choice" or bla bla whatever. I want it gone because I think it is poisoning the Ubers tier, and once it is gone I will be able to enjoy all the Ubers matches that I play, which thanks to Shadow Tag doesn't happen right now.

 

[faint]

does anyone else feel like this suspect should be put on hold because the slew of brokenmons soon to be released come oras might mean the meta gets shaken up enough that it actually appreciates/requires stag, specifically mega gengar (and wobb) as a form of check and balance???

i'll make a longer post later

If anything users will use ORAS as a reason to retest it for a third time. But yes, I will admit that I think the timing of this test is poor.

 

[trillyntruly]

i've decided to look up the definition of the word competitive. there were a few results, i'd say 2 of which definitely do not apply.

"well suited for competition; having a feature that makes for successful competition"
this definition here seemed to fit the bill most perfectly to me.

of the 4 definitions, the only other one that could apply in our case is this one:
"useful to a competitor ; giving a competitor an advantage"

so what is successful competition? one could say the very thing that makes something competitive according to the second definition is what makes it broken or uncompetitive for our purposes. it gives one player an advantage over another. but that isn't necessarily the case. successful competition requires opponents to have a chance against the other player, otherwise there is no competition. if one company has access to technology that makes it the clearly superior choice over its competitors, they're not really competing anymore at all, one is just raking in money, while the others are losing it. let's assume the other companies do not have any way to access this technology whatsoever. then it is an uneven playing field and nobody is even competing anymore. or let's use sports as an example. if a professional athlete is using the tools he has acquired in order to play against a child, it's a similar scenario. it isn't competitive because one party lacks, in every possible way, the ability to stand a chance.

i ask whether or not this is the case for shadow tag, and it clearly isn't (imo). within this thread, i feel as though, it has been proven time and time again that many other clauses which are present in ubers take away a significant amount of control on the players' part that shadow tag does not. moody/swagger/sleep are on a completely different plane than shadow tag. now let's take into consideration that any player can use shadow tag. what would you say to a company losing competition because it refused to use the tools at its disposal in order to compete against a threat within their competition? you'd tell them to stop complaining and compete, rather than try to make the technology illegal on the basis that it "just isn't fair".

if you don't want to adapt, don't. but don't say it's impossible. and don't make ridiculous arguments like "if you can't cover every other top threat while also being immune to stag, it's broken". i mean, really? no team is truly immune to anything, and you will always have weaknesses. this is the first rule i learned about teambuilding. yes, you will have trappable pokemon, because mono-ghost sucks. but you have the ability to make decisions within teambuilding, during starter-picking, and throughout the match. if you can see what is preventing a sweep from your opponent, you know to play carefully with it, and if you make a decision that allows it to get trapped, that really stinks, looks like you might lose this game. but you lost due to, entirely, your own decisions. it's not uncompetitive because it is useful, both to your competitor and to you, you have access to it as well, you can mitigate it, and you decide with it in mind the entire game. nothing is taken out of your control, until you've been trapped. but you got yourself trapped. a check mate isn't broken, it's the goddamn point.

 

[AlphaNeria]

Excellent comment PISTOLERO, I completely agree. Shadow Tag isn't too fun to play against especially if you're already trapped. Watching Gothitelle stall for 40 turns to get maximum TR turns to sweep with is also annoying. But it isn't uncompetitive.

That said I'll say that while Shadow Tag isn't too fun to play against, I find it still leads to a reasonably enjoyable game. There is a game to be played with the Shadow Tag user trying to bait the target Pokemon to switch in before trapping it, while the defender tries to avoid that very situation. It can lead to multiple turns of interesting cut and parry, even if the turns in which the Shadow Tagger has trapped something aren't fun. It's true that games with Shadow Tag can lead to one crucial turn deciding the game, e.g. a mistaken prediction that leaves a crucial Pokemon trapped, but on the other hand the tier has extremely strong set up sweepers that can also decide the game if they get their one turn of set up.

So while Shadow Tag isn't too fun to play against, I think it's still fun enough to keep in the tier. I probably won't be able to make reqs this time, but if I do manage I'll vote no ban.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Why in the world are people trying to use fun as a criteria to ban stag when it is a extremely subjective criteria?