Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[alexwolf]

Hey all, here you can talk about anything ORAS related, from discussing new MEvos and their impact on the metagame, to how the existing metagame will adapt to those new threats, including new sets of existing Pokemon or existing Pokemon that got better or worse in ORAS. For anyone wondering how we know about the new Mega Evolutions and moves, the data have already been extracted from the demo version released in early October, and there is already an OU ladder when you can try out those new stuff in Pokemon Showdown. Also, feel free to post sets about the new Mega Evolutions, and i will add to the OP everything i find to be good enough. For reference, here are the new MEvos and the important movepool additions:

New Mega Evolutions

Hide

Mega Beedrill

Typing: Bug/Poison
Ability: Adaptability
Stats: 65/150/40/15/80/145

Mega Pidgeot

Typing: Normal/Flying
Ability: No Guard
Stats: 83/80/80/135/80/121

Mega Slowbro

Typing: Water/Psychic
Ability: Shell Armor
Stats: 95/75/180/130/80/30

Mega Steelix

Typing: Steel/Ground
Ability: Sand Force
Stats: 75/125/230/55/95/30

Mega Sceptile

Typing: Grass/Dragon
Ability: Lightning Rod
Stats: 70/110/75/145/85/145

Mega Swampert

Typing: Water/Ground
Ability: Swift Swim
Stats: 100/150/110/95/110/70

Mega Sableye

Typing: Dark/Ghost
Ability: Magic Bounce
Stats: 50/85/125/85/115/20

Mega Sharpedo

Typing: Water/Dark
Ability: Strong Jaw
Stats: 70/140/70/110/65/105

Mega Camerupt

Typing: Fire/Ground
Ability: Sheer Force
Stats: 70/120/100/145/105/20

Mega Altaria

Typing: Dragon/Fairy
Ability: Pixilate
Stats: 75/110/110/110/105/80

Mega Glalie

Typing: Ice
Ability: Refrigerate
Stats: 80/120/80/120/80/100

Mega Salamence

Typing: Dragon/Flying
Ability: Aerialate
Stats: 95/145/130/120/90/120

Mega Metagross

Typing: Steel/Psychic
Ability: Tough Claws
Stats: 80/145/150/105/110/110

Mega Latias

Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Stats: 80/100/120/140/150/110

Mega Latios

Typing: Dragon/Psychic
Ability: Levitate
Stats: 80/130/100/160/120/110

Mega Lopunny

Typing: Normal/Fighting
Ability: Scrappy
Stats: 65/136/94/54/96/135

Mega Gallade

Typing: Fighting/Psychic
Ability: Inner Focus
Stats: 68/165/95/65/115/110

Mega Audino

Typing: Normal/Fairy
Ability: Healer
Stats: 103/60/126/80/126/50

Mega Diancie

Typing: Rock/Fairy
Ability: Magic Bounce
Stats: 50/160/110/160/110/110

Movepool Additions

Hide

Earth Power and Heal Bell Diancie
Gunk Shot and Low Kick Greninja
High Jump Kick Lopunny
Crunch Gyarados
Knock Off, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, and Superpower Diggersby
Fire Punch and Thunder Punch Hawlucha
Drain Punch Chesnaught
Synthesis and Foul Play Gourgeist
Earth Power Volcanion
Superpower, Drain Punch, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Ice Punch, Fire Punch Pangoro

Have fun, be civil, and think before posting!

 

[Rosen]

swiggity swooty

anyway crunch was god's gift to gyara, 2hkos mega venu at +1 and you don't have to run shitty ice fang. also chesnaught is bae, sorry ferro. i really can't think of much of a reason to run subseed loom over naught at this point, spore isn't as huge an asset imo as stupidly massive physical bulk. whenever i look for a defensive grass type, atm i almost automatically go to chesnaught. it's turned into the lovechild of loom and ferro and it is beautiful <3

 

[AM]

Continuing on what Rosen said I would like to point out that for one to use Breloom effectively in the current ORAS meta, one must branch out from the normal sets that are the Sash and SubSeed sets. A set such as this allows you to check things like M-Lopunny and M-Sharpedo much more efficiently while being able to potentially punish certain threats like Ferrothorn and M-Bro with a bit more ease.

Loom Set

Breloom (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Force Palm
- Rock Tomb
- Mach Punch

Not much needed to be said besides Force Palm being spammable with a 30% chance to flinch any non Electric types barring abilities of course. Life Orb is interchangeable as well with the point being that Breloom needs to maximize on its offensive potential to succeed in the current environment.

Knock Off Diggersby is fantastic from my experience in being able to threaten things like Gengar a bit more easily while breaking stall a bit better than it normally would.

Priority is even more of a necessity on offense regardless if it's in the form of offensive or supportive priority, for example Sucker Punch Bisharp and Thunder Wave Klefki respectively. That's really all I can say for now.

 

[Ajwf]

Chesnaught is incredibly good in this meta and probably will be OU simply due to the addition of Drain Punch. I've been running offensive Chesnaught and I've yet to be disappointed.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes/Taunt
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed / Taunt

The only reason I suggest taunt is you still run into a ton of ferrothorns liking to rock all over you, and you still can't OHKO them. Twave is deadly to Chesnaught (at least offensive chesnaught) so you want to avoid that too. You do get some skarm/latias defoggers on the ins and also can stop a heatran from wisping your switch if it comes in on you. But seriously, being able to revenge kill Azumarill from full health, take ferro, excadrill, bisharp, ttar and GAIN health, just edge out rotom-wash and get him for 80% damage and still take just about everything you used to is absolutely wonderful.

Then you add spikes for all those turns you know a switch is coming in or you just have some free time to play with (which is pretty often tbh). Even one of these spike layers and your opponent seems to lose brain cells in how often they try to force defog them.

But seriously, chesnaught with drain punch is a blessing as he now gets some serious longevity.

Audino... I don't know what to do with Audino-Mega. It's so bulky, it has a cool move pool for supportish things but it seems to have the eeveloution cleric issue (Wish/Bell/Protect+Stab) which basically makes it a more passive (defensive) sylveon. Or a chansey with a slight edge in bulk, but one that gets wrecked by greninja. Also, screw greninja and that freaking Gunk Shot boost oml.

Between Slowbro-Mega and Chansey, people seem to be struggling to break it down. It is so bad to get at. The 2 attack/slack off/support move slowbro is amazing, although I personally like 3 attack (ice beam/scald/psyshock) so you don't lose CM keldeo.

 

[LoDart210]

Finally! It was limiting to only discuss megas!

I have this crazy idea. Do you think its possible jolteon might make a return? I found it to be very useful to take out extremely fast threats like greninja and talonflame that threaten the vast majority of the meta.

Not calling it a counter but it functions well as a check and specs volt switch hurts a lot of things.

It partners well with mEvo's like mPidgeot and mCamerupt!

What do you guys think?

 

[Rosen]

Finally! It was limiting to only discuss megas!

I have this crazy idea. Do you think its possible jolteon might make a return? I found it to be very useful to take out extremely fast threats like greninja and talonflame that threaten the vast majority of the meta.

Not calling it a counter but it functions well as a check and specs volt switch hurts a lot of things.

It partners well with mEvo's like mPidgeot and mCamerupt!

What do you guys think?

not as long as manectric and raikou exist, i'm afraid

 

[Celticpride]

Weavile is fantastic in the new meta, and it's not just because of Mega Mence. It has strong enough priority to dent/revenge Mega Beedrill and Sceptile, is difficult for any Lati to deal with, can hit Lando-T hard, and in general outspeed a ton of stuff, including Greninja. Being able to run Knock Off and Icicle Crash together only helps it, that extra 10 BP on Crash over Punch is a nice bonus. It's still as frail as anything, but if it gets a free switch look out.

Raikou is another Pokemon that has gotten a little better in the new meta imo. Volt Switching and quick momentum is always really good in a new meta, and Raikou doesn't require a Scarf or Mega Stone to reach a pretty dirty speed tier. It checks BirdSpam, Greninja, Mega Sceptile, some Swift Swimmers, Rotom-W, and pretty much any other special attacker when it carries an Assault Vest. If only it could use Aura Sphere without being forced to use a pretty bad nature alongside it...

Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir have also gotten slightly better, because they beat MegaBro and MegaEye stall teams respectively. Medicham seems to have gotten worse with a really hard stop to it being introduced (Mega Eye). Gardevoir also hates something else existing that might carry Bullet Punch, and it just might have to carry a handcuff that can check both Scizor and Metagross (ScarfTran and Gard core? Maybe?).

 

[Karxrida]

Finally! It was limiting to only discuss megas!

I have this crazy idea. Do you think its possible jolteon might make a return? I found it to be very useful to take out extremely fast threats like greninja and talonflame that threaten the vast majority of the meta.

Not calling it a counter but it functions well as a check and specs volt switch hurts a lot of things.

It partners well with mEvo's like mPidgeot and mCamerupt!

What do you guys think?

I highly doubt it. It has significantly worse bulk than Raikou and Mega Manectric (SD Talonflame always OHKOs after Rocks with Brave Bird, Latios' Draco Meteor always OHKOs, etc.), is weaker than them, and only has Shadow Ball for coverage. It's a lot easier to handle overall and is pretty much outclassed even with higher base Speed and not needing a Mega Stone.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Weavile is fantastic in the new meta, and it's not just because of Mega Mence. It has strong enough priority to dent/revenge Mega Beedrill and Sceptile, is difficult for any Lati to deal with, can hit Lando-T hard, and in general outspeed a ton of stuff, including Greninja. Being able to run Knock Off and Icicle Crash together only helps it, that extra 10 BP on Crash over Punch is a nice bonus. It's still as frail as anything, but if it gets a free switch look out.

Raikou is another Pokemon that has gotten a little better in the new meta imo. Volt Switching and quick momentum is always really good in a new meta, and Raikou doesn't require a Scarf or Mega Stone to reach a pretty dirty speed tier. It checks BirdSpam, Greninja, Mega Sceptile, some Swift Swimmers, Rotom-W, and pretty much any other special attacker when it carries an Assault Vest. If only it could use Aura Sphere with out being forced to use a pretty bad nature for it...

Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir have also gotten slightly better, because they beat MegaBro and MegaEye stall teams respectively. Medicham seems to have gotten worse with a really hard stop to it being introduced (Mega Eye). Gardevoir also hates something else existing that might carry Bullet Punch, and it just might have to carry a handcuff that can check both Scizor and Metagross (ScarfTran and Gard core? Maybe?).

Totally agree about Weavile. It's a great answer to a lot of the new threats that are coming out. Weavile's always had an interesting niche being able to handle a lot of top tier threats, and since that list now includes a lot of shiny new toys that everyone wants to try out, I definitely foresee Weavile becoming very widespread in the early ORAS meta.

I also see a good start for Hawlucha. Fire punch/Thunder punch help it take care of a lot of pokemon that used to cause it a lot of grief. Fire punch for ferrothorn/scizor, who used to be super annoying to deal with for hawl; And thunder punch for flying types not named talonflame and bulky waters that also used to be able to take even boosted HJKs or god forbid, use protect on it. If only it also got ice punch for lando, hawl would be nearly impossible to prevent from getting 2-4 kills per match. Additionally, hawl makes a great check for mega gallade, whom it outspeeds and can KO w/sky attack/acrobatics. In fact, after an unburden boost, hawl is capable of outspeeding and heavily damaging most of the new megas, and hell, the whole damn meta. Sure, it won't be OHKOing too many of them, but being able to take a large chunk out of dang near anything makes him one dangerous customer.

 

[Karxrida]

Totally agree about Weavile. It's a great answer to a lot of the new threats that are coming out. Weavile's always had an interesting niche being able to handle a lot of top tier threats, and since that list now includes a lot of shiny new toys that everyone wants to try out, I definitely foresee Weavile becoming very widespread in the early ORAS meta.

I also see a good start for Hawlucha. Fire punch/Thunder punch help it take care of a lot of pokemon that used to cause it a lot of grief. Fire punch for ferrothorn/scizor, who used to be super annoying to deal with for hawl; And thunder punch for flying types not named talonflame and bulky waters that also used to be able to take even boosted HJKs or god forbid, use protect on it. If only it also got ice punch for lando, hawl would be nearly impossible to prevent from getting 2-4 kills per match. Additionally, hawl makes a great check for mega gallade, whom it outspeeds and can KO w/sky attack/acrobatics. In fact, after an unburden boost, hawl is capable of outspeeding and heavily damaging most of the new megas, and hell, the whole damn meta. Sure, it won't be OHKOing too many of them, but being able to take a large chunk out of dang near anything makes him one dangerous customer.

Hawlucha only checks Mega Gallade if it runs a Jolly nature, which cost the Unburden sets a lot of necessary power. A LO set (the only other reason you'd use Jolly) receives a lot of competition from other cleaners on top of getting beaten by Greninja and having no good Flying STAB, which really sucks.

Even then, Acro cannot KO unless you've used up your item while Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt will OHKO back. Unless you're ready to sweep the moment you send out Hawlucha to check it, you have to waste your Unburden boost to do so.

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 164-194 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 234-276 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hawlucha Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 213-252 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 348-410 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Gloating]

Totally agree about Weavile. It's a great answer to a lot of the new threats that are coming out. Weavile's always had an interesting niche being able to handle a lot of top tier threats, and since that list now includes a lot of shiny new toys that everyone wants to try out, I definitely foresee Weavile becoming very widespread in the early ORAS meta.

I also see a good start for Hawlucha. Fire punch/Thunder punch help it take care of a lot of pokemon that used to cause it a lot of grief. Fire punch for ferrothorn/scizor, who used to be super annoying to deal with for hawl; And thunder punch for flying types not named talonflame and bulky waters that also used to be able to take even boosted HJKs or god forbid, use protect on it. If only it also got ice punch for lando, hawl would be nearly impossible to prevent from getting 2-4 kills per match. Additionally, hawl makes a great check for mega gallade, whom it outspeeds and can KO w/sky attack/acrobatics. In fact, after an unburden boost, hawl is capable of outspeeding and heavily damaging most of the new megas, and hell, the whole damn meta. Sure, it won't be OHKOing too many of them, but being able to take a large chunk out of dang near anything makes him one dangerous customer.

I honestly feel those moves are unnecessary. It's best set is unarguably Sub SD because it protects it from status and sets up on Mew and things like that so it doesn't have space for those moves anyway. HJK already hits Scizor pretty hard as well as Ferrothorn who you can play around the Protect with Substitute, Acrobatics or SD. Acrobatics hits harder than super effective Thunder Punch so it's not needed. It doesn't need Ice Punch either because it beats Ice Fang less Gliscor and Landorus-T anyway.

 

[Pac-man9]

I've currently been testing a new core with Mega Metagross, Hydreigon, and Talonflame core with great results, and wanted to share it with you peoples

+

+ = LOVE


Metagross
@Metagrossite
248 atk/160 hp/96 spe/4 spd

Moveset

Meteor Mash
Zen Headbutt
Agility
Earthquake


Hydreigon
Choice Scarf
252 spe/252 sp.atk/4 atk

Moveset

Draco Meteor
Dark Pulse
U-Turn
Fire Blast


Talonflame
Item: Choice Band
252 atk/252 spe/4 hp

Moveset

Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
U-Turn
Aerial Ace/Tailwind


Just like the aegislash and Hydreigon core, Hydreigon and mega Metagross cover almost all of each other's weaknesses, along with checks and counters. Hydreigon clears the way of pesky MSlowbro, ferrothorn, and any other physical tanks that Metagross' s coverage can't handle, giving him an easy sweep after an agility boost. Talonflame is here primarily to put a stop to mega gallade, who dismantles this core otherwise, but also puts a dent in anything that switches into it, making MGross's job easier. Although impractical, He can also soak up priority will o wisps from sabeleye, aimed at Gross, and then proceeds to OHKO him. Speaking of impractical, note the tailwind on Talonflame. I wanted to think outside the box and figured, when you know that your Talonflame is about to expire, you can use tailwind before you doe to give your Metagross a temporary agility boost, and can proceed to sweep right then and there.

So what do you think?

 

[Kurona]

By god, this thread makes me happy purely for the fact I don't have to scroll past that Poll anymore. That thing was way too unnecessary and took up too much space :U

I've currently been testing a new core with Mega Metagross, Hydreigon, and Talonflame core with great results, and wanted to share it with you peoples
View attachment 29354 +View attachment 29361 +View attachment 29359 = LOVE


Metagross
@Metagrossite
248 atk/160 hp/96 spe/4 spd

Moveset

Meteor Mash
Zen Headbutt
Agility
Ice Punch


Hydreigon
@Choice Scarf
252 spe/252 sp.atk/4 atk

Moveset

Draco Meteor
Dark Pulse
U-Turn
Fire Blast


Talonflame
Item: Choice Band
252 atk/252 spe/4 hp

Moveset

Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
U-Turn
Aerial Ace/Tailwind


Just like the aegislash and Hydreigon core, Hydreigon and mega Metagross cover almost all of each other's weaknesses, along with checks and counters. Hydreigon clears the way of pesky MSlowbro, ferrothorn, and any other physical tanks that Metagross' s coverage can't handle, giving him an easy sweep after an agility boost. Talonflame is here primarily to put a stop to mega gallade, who dismantles this core otherwise, but also puts a dent in anything that switches into it, making MGross's job easier. Although impractical, He can also soak up priority will o wisps from sabeleye, aimed at Gross, and then proceeds to OHKO him. Speaking of impractical, note the tailwind on Talonflame. When you know that your Talonflame is about to expire, you can use tailwind before you doe to give your Metagross a temporary agility boost, and can proceed to sweep right then and there.

So what do you think?

Why Hydreigon over Latios?

 

[Elveman]

There's two pairs of Megas that share types but have different roles. A difference between Sharpedo and Gyarados was discussed in previous thread. So maybe we can discuss situations when Mega Cham is preferred over Mega Gallade and vice versa. Personally, I think that while Mega Cham has access to immediate power (+2 CC of Mega Gallade is only 1.3 times stronger than HJK of Mega Cham), Gallade has access to some moves that abuse his bulk (Will-o, Disable, better use of Drain Punch) and speed (Destiny Bond, Taunt) so it can be similar to Gengar in that role. Also it has better coverage with Knock Off (that also acts as utility move).
So what do you guys think about Gallade and Cham in this meta?

 

[Pac-man9]

Why Hydreigon over Latios?

Mainly to destroy mega slowbro

 

[Stallion]

Greninja is messed up right now. The simple addition of Gunk Shot means the only safe switch in is Chansey (and Empoleon, who I've actually used just for Ninja), who actually loses to physical versions. It's a pain in the ass to deal with, and I'd argue more centralizing than any of the new ORAS additions with the possible exception of MegaMence.

Also base 100 speed means fuck all now, the two most important speed tiers are base 110 and base 122 (or whatever Greninja is)

 

[tigers jaw]

porygon2 is a god in or/as, checking/hard countering so many new threats - every team i've made has this thing on it.

greninja with gunk shot is literally the bane of my existence (rip 252/96+ clef), along with mega mence - the two are the biggest constraints on team building i've found so far, although megabro is always on my mind, too.

honestly, i don't think i'm gonna be that into or/as ou until mence goes, as it's really been getting on my nerves but w/e - why everyone's using it is understandable lol

will post more of my thoughts later, gotta dash :)

edit: ninja'd on the ninja

 

[Elveman]

Greninja is messed up right now. The simple addition of Gunk Shot means the only safe switch in is Chansey (and Empoleon, who I've actually used just for Ninja), who actually loses to physical versions. It's a pain in the ass to deal with, and I'd argue more centralizing than any of the new ORAS additions with the possible exception of MegaMence.

Also base 100 speed means fuck all now, the two most important speed tiers are base 110 and base 122 (or whatever Greninja is)

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 242-283 (65 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 172-203 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Empoleon isn't a reliable counter now

 

[Clair]

Just from some preliminary testing, I feel like M-Gyarados has gained a lot of viability. Crunch gives it that solid two move STAB combo it always wanted, it checks Gunk Ninja, and a lot of serious threats before or after Mega-evolving (M-Slowbro being the main one, but also Swampert rain, M-Gross, and the whole slew of Fighting Megas).

Other than that...M-Mence is so centralising its making it hard to get much of a handle on the metagame. M-Heracross usage seems pretty strong higher up on the ladder despite the flying spam, which I'd attribute to breaking M-Bro and not being walled by Sableye like M-Cham and (somewhat) Gallade.

 

[Gloating]

Yeah Greninja is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier right now aside from Mega Mence who needs to GTFO. This frog is almost impossible to wall and also gets many opportunities to Spike stack due to how many switches it forces. Physical sets aren't horrible either, I've been caught off guard by Water Shiruken and Low Kick. There's just no telling what this thing is running.

 

[Srn]

Greninja is messed up right now. The simple addition of Gunk Shot means the only safe switch in is Chansey (and Empoleon, who I've actually used just for Ninja), who actually loses to physical versions. It's a pain in the ass to deal with, and I'd argue more centralizing than any of the new ORAS additions with the possible exception of MegaMence.

Also base 100 speed means fuck all now, the two most important speed tiers are base 110 and base 122 (or whatever Greninja is)

I'd throw in cress (w/ a little sdef it eats dpulse), rachi (needs full sdef) and p2 onto that list. But yeah the amount of reliable answers to ninja are so few its actually quite retarded even for stall to handle.

 

[SomeKidFromJohto]

Yeah, with all of the new moves gren is getting in ORAS, I'm starting to notice shades of the same descriptions as a lot of banned pokemon. With it's new movepool, there's no way to tell if it's running special, physical, or mixed, and if you guess wrong you can easily lose 2-3 pokemon in a hurry. Plus, with the ability to lay spikes to punish switching and wear down the few pokemon that CAN counter it, it's always leaving a heavy mark on any battle. I'm certainly not calling for gren to get suspect tested or anything, but the parallels are there, and they contribute to showing how much more amazing gren is getting in ORAS, and considering it was already S rank, that's saying a lot.

 

[Stef0w]

Goddammit gunk shot, you better not go and get my ninja bro banned

Hyped to see mega zam and aero in the new meta, zam wont mind more good abilities to steal, and it's speedtier is still as godly, but it's gonna hate scarf/priority spam. Aero is just gonna be plain awesome.

My favorite new mega might actually be camerupt, damn he looks fun to use.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

What has everybody found to be a solid response to M-Swampert? I want to replace my Rotom-W with Lanturn so opposing Rotom-W don't give me hell, but that leaves me incredibly susceptible to a Mega Swampert sweep, as I need Azumarill alive at high health to have a chance to revenge. This thing is a monster late game under rain.

 

[zbr]

Well, Greninja no longer has any sort of safe switch in. Almost everything is K.O.ed by one of its moves, but that brings me to me next point. Greninja sufferes hugely from 4-Slot move syndrome.

This just seem largely like the counter argument that the Anti Ban side proposed for Mega Luke not being broken. Albeit they are largely different, it just seems like Gren is very centralising in the ORAS meta. Maybe Gren will end up like BW Hydreigon or it may end up like Mega Luke we won't know. But at this stage, it is really safe to conclude that due to the punishing nature of Gren's versatility and it's great speed tier, it places a huge strain on team building and that is a really really huge issue.