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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Gunk Shot
With 40 Atk Evs and Gunk Shot Greninja is able to OHKO/2HKO many counters/checks (they were lol)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 463-546 (167.1 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 328-385 (83.2 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 212-251 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Raikou)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 226-266 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Goodra)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr: 175-207 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (AV Conkeldurr)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 185-218 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 156-185 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Special Defensive Rotom-W)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 304-359 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Blissey will be poisoned from Gunk Shot:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 304-359 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and poison damage
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Gunk Shot
With 40 Atk Evs and Gunk Shot Greninja is able to OHKO/2HKO many counters/checks (they were lol)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 463-546 (167.1 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 328-385 (83.2 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 212-251 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Raikou)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 226-266 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Goodra)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Conkeldurr: 175-207 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (AV Conkeldurr)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 185-218 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 156-185 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Special Defensive Rotom-W)
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 304-359 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Blissey will be poisoned from Gunk Shot:
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 304-359 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and poison damage
Basically seeing greninja on every team at this point, it's kinda ridiculous <_< and salamence-induced scarfninja sets are killing off my own scarf landorus, scarfchomp, scarf lati@s, and such. I tried playing some super offensive teams and it was frustrating not having any switch so now i'm back to stall/balance with porygon2 :)
You are kinda late to the party bro.
On a side note, has anyone been experimenting with hydragross and suitable partners? Hydragross seems to be a like a very strong underrated core. What partners would work well with the core? I'd assume something that can soak fighting type hits and potentially even fairy types? On mobile rn so typing right outta my ass. Will contribute a bit more when I get on my com
I think part of it depends on what Hydreigon and Metagross are using. I've been using STABs / Ice Punch / Earthquake M-Gross and Draco Meteor / Dark Pulse / Fire Blast Hydreigon, which takes care of most defensive threats. However, the core struggles against Tyranitar / Excadrill cores and bulky waters. It's a different story if M-Gross is running Hammer Arm and Grass Knot, but for teambuilding reasons I don't really like Hammer Arm. Either way, Metagross's moves heavily influence your needed team support, arguably more so than most other wallbreakers.
I realize that I have basically just been posting my current team up in bits in pieces, but I have been using a lot of things that have had great success, so I want to share them. My stealth rock setter has been garchomp but not the garchomp you are thinking of. Here is my set:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Protect/Fire Blast
- Earthquake
This set is designed to help out my sharpedo sweep. I mean I might just go off on a super long post here so bear with me. I will post specific mons that I needed him to deal with and how he does it.
I guess I will leave out the other mons because you get the idea, mons like slowbro or mandibuzz get toxiced, physcial attackers can usually not do enough damage and get hit hard by eq.
The cons to this set are obviously it only has one attack and mons like skarmory or ferrothorn arent really that scared of you.(as zanbakuresh pointed out these problems are solved by adding fire blast over protect) But thats what teammates are for, this set is designed to deal with some of the tiers most annoying mons. It can be adjusted to fit your teams needs, as I said earlier this particular one is mainly for sharpedo. Let me know what you guys think!
Edit: I did forget the tough claws boost on mega metagross, it still doesnt usually OHKO, but it does substantially more.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 356-420 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Protect/Fire Blast
- Earthquake
This set is designed to help out my sharpedo sweep. I mean I might just go off on a super long post here so bear with me. I will post specific mons that I needed him to deal with and how he does it.
Lando-t- A very common lead and it will either be scarfed, and usually u-turn out while I get up rocks and take about 30% of his health with the rocky skin damage, or he is the sr bulky set and he gets toxiced and I get my rocks up, and he usually will still u-turn out taking the damage. Since scarf is most common, every single time it comes in he will either get locked into earthquake, which can be taken advantage of, or he is taking a bunch of damage.
Azumarill- This garchomp set beats azu 1v1 Here is a calc:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp eats this attack up then eqs it for the kill in combination with the rocky damage
Rotom-w- gets toxicd and widdled down in conjunction with the toxic damage, protect stalling, and stealth rocks damage, and this is perfect because rotom only needs to be at 50% for sharpedo to take him out, not to mention sharpedo also has protect to get another toxic turn in.
Lopunny (mega)- This is my personal favorite, because it will usually fake out then ice punch in order to prevent rocks, but in actuality it can live ice punch EVERYTIME even after fake out, so you can choose to either get up rocks or just kill the lopunny and try and get rocks up later.
252+ Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 280-332 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This is obviously with the attack boost mega gets)
Metagross(mega)- Another mon that may think it has the coverage move to OHKO garchomp only to get destroyed after the ice punch and killed with earthquake.
252+ Atk Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(also with attack raise)
Azumarill- This garchomp set beats azu 1v1 Here is a calc:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Garchomp eats this attack up then eqs it for the kill in combination with the rocky damage
Rotom-w- gets toxicd and widdled down in conjunction with the toxic damage, protect stalling, and stealth rocks damage, and this is perfect because rotom only needs to be at 50% for sharpedo to take him out, not to mention sharpedo also has protect to get another toxic turn in.
Lopunny (mega)- This is my personal favorite, because it will usually fake out then ice punch in order to prevent rocks, but in actuality it can live ice punch EVERYTIME even after fake out, so you can choose to either get up rocks or just kill the lopunny and try and get rocks up later.
252+ Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 280-332 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This is obviously with the attack boost mega gets)
Metagross(mega)- Another mon that may think it has the coverage move to OHKO garchomp only to get destroyed after the ice punch and killed with earthquake.
252+ Atk Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(also with attack raise)
I guess I will leave out the other mons because you get the idea, mons like slowbro or mandibuzz get toxiced, physcial attackers can usually not do enough damage and get hit hard by eq.
The cons to this set are obviously it only has one attack and mons like skarmory or ferrothorn arent really that scared of you.(as zanbakuresh pointed out these problems are solved by adding fire blast over protect) But thats what teammates are for, this set is designed to deal with some of the tiers most annoying mons. It can be adjusted to fit your teams needs, as I said earlier this particular one is mainly for sharpedo. Let me know what you guys think!
Edit: I did forget the tough claws boost on mega metagross, it still doesnt usually OHKO, but it does substantially more.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 356-420 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
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Instead of Dragon Claw being slashed, you can slash Fire Blast. Solves all your major steel type problem and potentially scares them out for you to gain momentum.
I've been experimenting with scarf Hydreigon, 4 attacks Metagross, and 4 trappers (Wobbuffet, Goth, Dug, and Magnezone). The trappers are great at taking out any threats that may stop the main core (or provide any resistance whatsoever) while Hydreigon provides the dark resist that his team mates need. After the trappers deal with key threats the Hydragross core is tough to beat. Typically the trappers trade 1-1 with the opponent's defensive core, Metagross breaks offensive threats, then finally Hydreigon sweeps with Dark Pulse.
So wait, are you trying to run all four OU trappers in a single team? I feel like that's simply begging to get mauled by any competently built offensive team, whom only need 1 successful setup to bulldoze through most of your team.
That being said, let me know if it actually does work.
Yeah it is really out there; you're overstating it's effectiveness by a long shot. Any birdspam member shuts it down, it has a lot of trouble switching in, shut down by status, it has to deal with it's base speed being 80 on the mega evolution turn, and it speed ties with a heck of a lot of things now. It's not enough to keep it out of A+ and perhaps it might even go to S, but there's absolutely no way this thing is as dangerous, versatile, uncounterable or metagame-centralizing as Blaziken, Aegislash, Mega Salamence etc. are.
My opponents must not be very competent then :P. I find Wobbuffet does wonders against any form of set up and the offensive nature of my team keeps the game tempo in my favor most of the time. The only real problem is a set up Salamence and honestly, what team doesn't have problems with him?
Gallade will be a nightmare too if it setups up on you. I have to agree that four trappers is kinda overkill for a team when you could be adding much more needed roles on the team.
Ugh, ok fair enough back to serious discussion. A fairy type would do well to complete the established fairy/steel/dragon core and to give the trio a much needed fighting resist. Lando-T could also be useful to provide Rocks and check Sand Rush cores.
Do not forget that a good number of dragons are resistant to fighting, notable ones being Lati@s and Salamence(who also has intimidate to make the switches a bit easier), who could fit in to that core quite well
naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
Off the topic of the new Megas, offensive Mega Scizor is still really good in the meta rn. It just checks / counters so many of the new megas going around. Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Sceptile, Mega Diancie, Mega Audino, the list goes on. Hell it even takes advantage of the Hydro Pump/HP Fire-less Greninjas going around. It also lures and OHKOs the ever-so-popular Ferrothorns and Rotom-Ws. It's still a great answer to top metagame threats that sweeps slow teams at a moment's notice like it was in late XY. Pair it with CB Azumarill and you have a frightening offensive core.
Also pointing out that Cresselia is a monster. It's like Porygon-2 in that it's a great blanket check to half the meta. It even has Lunar Dance, meaning that you can restore a weakened sweeper to full health immediately. It's a Pokemon that you can just slap onto any team, from HO to stall, and watch it perform. Pursuit trapping isn't as common anymore which also helps Cress out greatly.
Also pointing out that Cresselia is a monster. It's like Porygon-2 in that it's a great blanket check to half the meta. It even has Lunar Dance, meaning that you can restore a weakened sweeper to full health immediately. It's a Pokemon that you can just slap onto any team, from HO to stall, and watch it perform. Pursuit trapping isn't as common anymore which also helps Cress out greatly.
Slight nitpick, Mega Sceptile runs hp fire on it's standard set, so... don't switch scizor in. Unless you've scouted it and it has like substitute instead.
Hey, m8, just wanna say you've inspired me to roll with the super shark and I gotta agree, Jaws does MAD work, very underrated. I'm finding Sharpedo is one of those mons who stacks naturally with partners (Conk, Ninja) who can bully the same group of checks/counters until they're within Crunch range, and this particular Garchomp is just such excellent glue, leading well and switching into early game landos/talonflames with ease and punishing them with chip damage.
One thing I've been trying to good success is Aqua Jet > Waterfall on Sharpedo. Aqua Jet is literal piss, and there have been occasions where I've missed Waterfall (though rarely, since my team wears down water-neutrals pretty hard), but considering Talonflame and Thundy are goddamn everywhere as blanket sweeper/cleaner checks the priority shines far more often than the power. It also has the 'Fake-Out-esque' benefit of providing clutch MEvos on sacs/kills where you know your opponent has no other play but to go for the kill and Protect would just waste a turn.
Replay of Jet Sharpedo cleaning despite Talonflame: [note, Victini lead was a missclick, but it worked out fine]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-182944059
Man is that a good glue. loving the garchomp. Another great partner for sharpedo is latios, as it nails the pokemon m-sharpedo has trouble with if it runs poison fang > zen headbutt, mainly venusaur and keldeo. although using both bulky chomp and latios in conjunction compounds weaknesses, so im pondering another pokemon that could fit this role with less similar weaknesses. Maybe a wierd lando t.
Phone is glitching so I can't calc but it looks like you forgot the tough claws boost on mega metagross.
You're right:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 408-480 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
However it's not M-meta is staying on garchomp before mega evo since you have to assume you can be outsped.
Also most Mega Metagross run a +Speed nature anyway to outspeed Terrakion and Keldeo as well as speed tie other base 110s, (and outspeed those running HP Fire.)
At the moment I am finding fairy to be a less-than-desirable typing just based on the sheer amount of steel types going around on teams, and even non-steels like greninja and garchomp can really pack a punch. I've been trying to give mega-altaria a try but there are hardly any pokemon to 100% safely start boosting on save for latia@s, rotom, and choice locks. I imagine diancie and audino players are having the same frustrations, what with magnezone, ferrothorn, skarmory, scizor, metagross, and heatran being so ubiquitous. But then again, I havent tried running altaria with trappers in my team, and it seems like trapping is part of the new meta. Overall though I wouldn't rate dragon/fairy/steel as a particular exceptional defensive core typing, to be honest it's just steel type doing all the work (dragon and flying resist) and any types you pair up with it will be inherently good because steel is so good.
I really disagree with this while steels are common I think trapping is really overrated and the sheer amount of zones has led to shed shell being standard on skarm and ferro. I think lures like EQ Lati and HP fire ninja are far more effective than trapping because they actually put in work against offense. Also Altaria can set up on stuff like Lando-t due to ground immunity before mega and Keldeo so it shouldn't be too difficult, perhaps using sub or heal bell and a bulkier spread would help to set up on things like rotom and non-mega slowbro.
I've been using this core to great success. Along with P2, these guys are probs the most anti-meta Pokemon atm in my opinion. However, as I found out today, it gets COMPLETELY rolled by the DD Facade set 9/10 times. Of course this isn't a common as Return / Frustration sets, but it does get good usage on lots of teams. This is why Sala needs to get banned, it just gives no shits.Here are a couple of mons which are pretty anti-meta right now.
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Defog
- Roar
With Greninja being one of the most threatening mons in OU thanks to gunk shot move tutor in ORAS, Empoleon becomes one of the best defensive checks for it. Thanks to its typing and very good special bulk, it's reliably able to take any hit from Greninja, the most threatening move from it being grass knot which does 27-32%. Seeing as grass knot is sub optimal at the moment anyway, Empoleon shouldn't have anything to worry about when facing it. Emp can also check with a number of the new threats including cm mega latias, cm slowbro, diancie, sub dd salamence and a few others.
Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Pursuit / Filler
Physically defensive spiritomb is a really nice check to sub dd salamence, gengar, mega latias and a load of physical attackers in general. With its infiltrator ability, tomb can easily pick sub dd salamence off with a will-o wisp or with a foul play after taking any one hit. Many of the core using mega latias focus on using fighting types to pressure dark types but by virtue of tomb's ghost typing, it can stay as a check for mega latias without having to be worried about getting nailed by a fighting move. With gengar being one of the most powerful mons at the moment, the fact that the most gar can do is hit tomb for neutral damage is really nice as well and nailing it with a pursuit is really really easy. There are also a number of powerful physical attackers at the moment which tomb can blast with a STAB foul play such as gallade, scarf landorus t, swampert, beedrill etc. I'm not saying tomb is a fantastic mon but i think it has a couple of good niches within the oras metagame.
It's also worth noting that Low Kick Greninja sees some usage, which is far more threatening than GK. Lots of people opt for LK, Gunk, Ice Beam, HP Fire and simply forego Dark Pulse and Water STAB. This is also why 'ninja will probably get suspected, versatile doesn't even cover it, it's a swiss-army-gofuckyourself that can drastically alter its move set entirely depending on what its teammate requires.
Yeah, gren is ridiculous atm. I've even been having some success with some 'niche' sets like PuP/water shuriken. After a PuP or two, water shuriken becomes an incredibly threatening priority move that many people don't see coming, as they don't realize that water shuriken HAS priority. It basically hits like an aqua jet if it gets 3 hits, which is decently likely, and adding the chance to do even MORE damage is pretty cool. Add in the appropriate coverage moves, and you have a killing machine on your hands that is very difficult to stop. The best example I can think of is how PuP gren absolutely STEAMROLLS sand offense, using Ttar as PuP fodder, and slamming sand rush excadrill with SE priority. I've actually 6-0'd some sand teams with this set, which is just insane. But even putting this set aside, my main point is that greninja can really do anything it wants at this point. I've seen scarfed variants that revenge kill +1 mega salamence, I've seen spike stackers, U-Turners, stallbreakers; I've seen so many different gren builds it isn't even funny. Gren is quite possibly the most influential pokemon in the whole meta right now, Salamence included.
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