Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Why would you even consider poison fang when mix carv ice beam is an option, also gets through foongus
I agree that Poison Fang is not a good move for it in general, but it does OHKO bulky Eviolite Cottonee on the switch-in after Stealth Rock, whereas Ice Beam does not. It requires a cramped movepool and better prediction than most players would want to restrict themselves to just to kill one Pokemon, though.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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Just a reminder, we have a thread for discussing these changes here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-moveset-changes-discussion.3520001/page-2

still keeping this thread open for general discussion, but discussion on the new tutor moves can take place in that thread. (It doesn't let me move posts to a thread that's already open for some reason)

If anyone has topic ideas or anything they wanna discuss just send me a PM, or simply make a post in this thread about it
 
Just a reminder, we have a thread for discussing these changes here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-moveset-changes-discussion.3520001/page-2

still keeping this thread open for general discussion, but discussion on the new tutor moves can take place in that thread. (It doesn't let me move posts to a thread that's already open for some reason)

If anyone has topic ideas or anything they wanna discuss just send me a PM, or simply make a post in this thread about it
If that's the case this thread should probably have the "tutor pls discuss" removed from its title......-_- (which is probably why people are talking about it here ;))

tbh the other thread should just be moved here since it's basically going to happen anyway once the moves are released unless I'm wrong because I'm not reading anything.

rip Restalk BU Circle Throw Pancham tho.
 
RIP Metagame Discussion Thread (I swear this is like the fourth time the thread dies)

With ORAS's release being really close there was some discussion lately in the LC room about retesting a bunch of stuff after ORAS comes out (hi apt-get) and I thought it'd be cool to have some discussion here too about it. So yeah, do you guys think it's worth retesting something specific or we should let all LC Ubers (except Scyther) run loose again and retest them the same way that happened after XY got released?

I'll be posting my thoughts later today.
 
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doomsday doink

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RIP Metagame Discussion Thread (I swear this is like the fourth time the thread dies)

With ORAS's release being really close there was some discussion lately in the LC room about retesting a bunch of stuff after ORAS comes out (hi apt-get) and I thought it'd be cool to have some discussion here too about it. So yeah, do you guys think it's worth retesting something specific or we should let all LC Ubers (except Scyther) run loose again and retest them the same way that happened after XY got released?
Not enough is going to change to merit a return of Sneasel, Gligar, Murkrow or Swirlix. There's been discussion of retesting Yanma, Meditite, and Misdreavus in a single meta, but this usually entails banning Compound Eyes as well, which in the past has been shot down. I personally really enjoy the meta right now, and I think it's only going to diversify more in ORAS, and more underrated Pokemon are going to start to rise to check (Lord) Pancham and boosting Trick Gothita.
 
Pancham actually being usable is going to be great. Parting Shot will allow setup sweepers like Zigzagoon, Clamperl, etc. to come in more easily and means you don't have to sac a mon using Memento and stuff. I can see it becoming a great pivot, albeit outshined by Foo because of slightly worse typing and ability.
 
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Slashari yes but parting shot lowers its atk and sp atk only by 1 while memento drops by 2 but a pawn probs wont stop it like it would stop an cottonee.
 

Shrug

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Mambo said:
There's been discussion of retesting Yanma, Meditite, and Misdreavus in a single meta, but this usually entails banning Compound Eyes as well, which in the past has been shot down. I personally really enjoy the meta right now, and I think it's only going to diversify more in ORAS, and more underrated Pokemon are going to start to rise to check (Lord) Pancham and boosting Trick Gothita.
Would this not be feasible? I agree that this is a fun meta, but i don't think that there's a downside to retesting - it's fun to use new old things for a while, and if the novelty wears off and it turns out to be a less fun, less balanced meta, then we hit them with a reban. Now, I'm unsure of the whole Compoundeyes situation because I didn't play in the Yanma meta, but an all-inclusive suspect test could allow for discussion about if accurate Hypnosis is what makes Yanma broken and overall be positive, I think.

A question: Tangla wasn't a part of the "will not retest" group (Scyther, Sneasel, Gligar, Murkrow, Swirlix) or the "could retest" group already mentioned. I'm assuming it wouldn't be retested because it's both broken and annoying?
 

apt-get

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To be honest, I feel like this meta is pretty bland, compared to what unbanning more currently banned pokemon could achieve. Wow, pancham has new moves, ORAS comfirmed best meta?
Unbanning Misdreavus and Meditite is already nice, as the suspect test concerning these pokemon were pretty dubious, for the most part, in my opinion. Unbanning Yanma is another step, since we need to ban Compoundeyes first: I think having at least these three will bring a much more fun meta with more viable pokemon.

Unbanning Murkrow is something else, but I feel like it could work. Many people think it's broken, but honestly, I don't know what really changed between this gen and BW (Dark vs steel isn't really relevant since Sucker Punch wasn't the main argument of the ban), and I never really had any problems with it, tho that may be because I always run offense. It could potentially be balanced in the new meta, but if too many people don't want it in...

</opinion>
 
Retesting stuff would certainly spice things up. I'm all for bringing Missy and Meditite back, though I feel like that's the general consensus already. I wasn't really around for anything after the Murkrow / Swirlix ban, so my opinions concerning Missy and Meditite are pretty uneducated right now, but I agree with a lot of people in that bringing some of these things back can't hurt. A new meta brings new possibilities, and if the banned squad is still broken, we just re-ban them. Simple.

And it's not like we're bringing back anything super-controversial like Sneasel or Tangela. There's no doubting those Pokemon will be un-bannable for as long as they exist.
 
To be honest the current metagame is clearly the best, healthiest, and most balanced that we had in XY and probably in the LC history, literally there is nothing overpowered and most battles are decided by who plays better more than matchups which is how it was in the all metas from the Sneasel one to the Misdreavus meta.

However that made the meta stale and boring which is fine yeah but it'll be better to shake the metagame up a little bit by retesting some less-broken LC Ubers like Meditite, Yanma, and to a lesser extent Misdreavus and Murkrow that were less controversial compared to stuff like Sneasel, Swirlix, and Gilgar which will obviously get banned once again. Meditite and Misdreavus were indeed phenomenal Pokémon with the first having an exceptional Attack after the Huge Power boost, average bulk and speed, and a wide physical moveset leaving with almost no total counter, while the second having high Speed and Special Attack, decent bulk, and a wide support moveset so they'll probably be banned once again (especially Misdreavus, Meditite is arguable) after being retested, however Yanma has been a fine Pokémon especially its Speed Boost variant which is a strong late game cleaner yes but not invincible and has plenty of counters and stuff that can revenge kill it, on the other hand the Coumpoundeyes set was the problematic one which means that banning the combination of Yanma and Coumpoundeyes might be a wise idea however complex bans have been avoided in LC (we can still ban Coumpoundeyes alone as nothing else uses it except the really really rare Venonant). But to be honest I don't want to rush stuff and I think the best idea will be to wait until ORAS gets released and see these Pokémon in action before judging them (if they get retested ofc).

Indeed the metagame won't be changing much after ORAS' released except for a slight raise in the usage of Pancham and Gothita but other than that there won't be some remarkable change which may mean that they'll probably get banned once again but it won't hurt to see if stuff changed will it?
 
tite was banned at the same time as krow lol

Anyway, I think that the meta is a lot more balanced and diverse (admittedly that's not saying a whole lot) with Missy gone, and without it Meditite is actually broken (I'm still of the opinion it wasn't when it got banned). This leaves Yanma, which would require a complex ban which isn't ideal.
 
However that made the meta stale and boring which is fine yeah but it'll be better to shake the metagame up a little bit by retesting some less-broken LC Ubers like Meditite, Yanma, and to a lesser extent Misdreavus and Murkrow that were less controversial compared to stuff like Sneasel, Swirlix, and Gilgar which will obviously get banned once again. Meditite and Misdreavus were indeed phenomenal Pokémon with the first having an exceptional Attack after the Huge Power boost, average bulk and speed, and a wide physical moveset leaving with almost no total counter, while the second having high Speed and Special Attack, decent bulk, and a wide support moveset so they'll probably be banned once again (especially Misdreavus, Meditite is arguable) after being retested, however Yanma has been a fine Pokémon especially its Speed Boost variant which is a strong late game cleaner yes but not invincible and has plenty of counters and stuff that can revenge kill it, on the other hand the Coumpoundeyes set was the problematic one which means that banning the combination of Yanma and Coumpoundeyes might be a wise idea however complex bans have been avoided in LC (we can still ban Coumpoundeyes alone as nothing else uses it except the really really rare Venonant). But to be honest I don't want to rush stuff and I think the best idea will be to wait until ORAS gets released and see these Pokémon in action before judging them (if they get retested ofc).

Indeed the metagame won't be changing much after ORAS' released except for a slight raise in the usage of Pancham and Gothita but other than that there won't be some remarkable change which may mean that they'll probably get banned once again but it won't hurt to see if stuff changed will it?
I really hate posts like this. You say that these bans were "less controversial," and then make these Pokemon sound as though they were so completely and obviously broken, which was not the case for Meditite and Misdreavus. Meditite and Misdreavus are two controversial bans because the entire LC community is split on the decision, some people say they were completely broken, while others believe they were just great Pokemon and fit in perfectly. Yanma is just in the spotlight because people really don't want it banned due to it having an extremely subpar typing and bulk, while also losing to a couple of huge threats in the meta, including Fletchling and Archen. I could also see a Gligar retest, as, while it did outclass everything and prevent things from shining, like Vullaby and Archen, to an extent, it is still hard walled by Archen, a mon it is trying to outclass.

That being said, the mons in LC Ubers I'd be okay with retesting in order from least to most broken are as follows:
  1. Meditite
  2. Misdreavus
  3. Yanma
  4. Gligar & Murkrow (Gligar and Murkrow are tied cuz fuck them both).
The others, most especially Swirlix, can rot in LC Ubers for the rest of eternity for all I care...

Now onto the ORAS gains... The part about Gothita and Pancham gaining a slight increase is complete and utter bs, in all honesty.
  • Pancham literally has a better stat spread than Timburr, but with the ability to be a pivot. The special thing about Pancham is, while it pivots, it is also helping a pokmeon in your party set up, be it Drilbur, Pawniard, or even Nasty Plot Croagunk.
  • While Gothita gains a remarkable new niche in its already terrifying arsenal. With the ability to set up Calm Minds in the face of something you tricked a Choice Scarf, or Specs, on, Gothita is now going to be an even bigger threat.
  • You also left out Pumpkaboo which now becomes an even bigger problem for Pokemon like Drilbur and Staryu, due to it gaining reliable recovery in Synthesis. It also forms a nice core with Pawniard to keep your hazards on the field, due to Pumpkaboo beating all spinners, and Pawniard preventing people from Defogging.
(I left out explaining Murkrow cuz I really despise this piece of trash)
 
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GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love
Gligar should never be let back in LC for a multitude of obvious reasons that everyone who played SwirlGar has seemed to have conveniently forgot.

1. Gligar was one of the most overcentralizing & overpowering LC forces there was period. Nothing even came close to being on literally every teams as much as this stupid thing. If you weren't running one of slowpoke, shellos, or archen with other niche counters i dont even wanna bother mentioning, Gligar stright up tore through your team with no problem at all, which leads me to my next point.

2. I would initially argue gligar's versatility as one of the ways it was broken, but everyone ran stupid SubSD Berry Juice, everyone KNEW everyone ran SubSD Berry Juice, and everyone still got swept by SubSD Berry Juice despite knowing the set and the common coverage and moveeset and EVs and everything it ran. That set was literally enough to completely break LC in half and gain gligar an overwhelming usage statistic of 47% back in january compared to #2's 30%. The combination of SD, gligar's nice speed, base attack, base defense, and great coverage allowed it to bust through most teams with ease

3. Okay here's the versatility part. When gligar wasnt running sub eq sd acro he was running one of 439202029190 sets that were all pretty much as effective in their own respective ways because it had a pivot set, a sd 3 attack set a scarf set an evio sd set and a ton more.

please dont let this monstr back in lc tyvm

mons to retest shoud be

1. tite
2. yanma
3. missy i guess
4. murkrow definitely.
5. swirlix becos cute n_n
 
I really hate posts like this. You say that these bans were "less controversial," and then make these Pokemon sound as though they were so completely and obviously broken, which was not the case for Meditite and Misdreavus. Meditite and Misdreavus are two controversial bans because the entire LC community is split on the decision, some people say they were completely broken, while others believe they were just great Pokemon and fit in perfectly. Yanma is just in the spotlight because people really don't want it banned due to it having an extremely subpar typing and bulk, while also losing to a couple of huge threats in the meta, including Fletchling and Archen. I could also see a Gligar retest, as, while it did outclass everything and prevent things from shining, like Vullaby and Archen, to an extent, it is still hard walled by Archen, a mon it is trying to outclass.

That being said, the mons in LC Ubers I'd be okay with retesting in order from least to most broken are as follows:
  1. Meditite
  2. Misdreavus
  3. Yanma
  4. Gligar & Murkrow (Gligar and Murkrow are tied cuz fuck them both).
The others, most especially Swirlix, can rot in LC Ubers for the rest of eternity for all I care...

Now onto the ORAS gains... The part about Gothita and Pancham gaining a slight increase is complete and utter bs, in all honesty.
  • Pancham literally has a better stat spread than Timburr, but with the ability to be a pivot. The special thing about Pancham is, while it pivots, it is also helping a pokmeon in your party set up, be it Drilbur, Pawniard, or even Nasty Plot Croagunk.
  • While Gothita gains a remarkable new niche in its already terrifying arsenal. With the ability to set up Calm Minds in the face of something you tricked a Choice Scarf, or Specs, on, Gothita is now going to be an even bigger threat.
  • You also left out Pumpkaboo which now becomes an even bigger problem for Pokemon like Drilbur and Staryu, due to it gaining reliable recovery in Synthesis. It also forms a nice core with Pawniard to keep your hazards on the field, due to Pumpkaboo beating all spinners, and Pawniard preventing people from Defogging.
(I left out explaining Murkrow cuz I really despise this piece of trash)
I'm not entirely sure what the topic is right now but from what I gather, people are (rather absurdly, in my opinion) talking about retesting because of ORAS.....the absurdity I think, no offense, is illustrated in the latter half of this post where all of the changes do not actually influence the Pokemon that were banned to any reasonable degree.

The process that went into banning these Pokemon was clearly not just "on a whim" there was already discussion and scrutiny of every argument for and against banning each suspect. Further, the people making the decision had to prove themselves in terms of discussion and ladder requirements.

What makes it even worse is that you guys aren't even bringing up anything new. While this thread was given new life (after was taken away basically because we were told to stop talking in here lo0o0ol) I think this is definitely an unhealthy thing to be talking about. If you're going to post about retesting at least read the thread first as to not be repeating anything that was already addressed (ps. Archen and Fletchling were already in those metagames and were considered).
 
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I'm not entirely sure what the topic is right now but from what I gather, people are (rather absurdly, in my opinion) talking about retesting because of ORAS.....the absurdity I think, no offense, is illustrated in the latter half of the post where all of the changes do not actually influence the Pokemon that were banned to any reasonable degree.

The process that went into banning these Pokemon was clearly not just "on a whim" there was already discussion and scrutiny of every argument for and against banning each suspect. Further, the people making the decision had to prove themselves in terms of discussion and ladder requirements.

What makes it even worse is that you guys aren't even bringing up anything new. While this thread was given new life (after was taken away basically because we were told to stop talking in here lo0o0ol) I think this is definitely an unhealthy thing to be talking about. If you're going to post about retesting at least read the thread first as to not be repeating anything that was already addressed (ps. Archen and Fletchling were already in those metagames and were considered).
Just a few thoughts I have about your post.
  • Pumpkaboo gives Misdreavus actual competition as a defensive Ghost-type, or spinblocker, in this meta where all defensive Ghosts, bar the now banned Misdreavus, are absolutely terrible. Pumpkaboo also ha san actual ability to switch into Drilbur, which Misdreavus cannot do for fear of being hit by Earthquake and taking a great deal of damage. On top of this, Pumpkaboo has reliable recovery over Misdreavus, which Misdreavus would love to have.
  • Pancham gives Meditite potential competition as being a Fighting-type with an incredible offensive movepool. Pancham gains a plethora of new toys, including Knock Off, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Elemental Punches, and, less notably, Superpower. Pancham also has the ability to pivot, while also helping a team member begin its sweep, which could also give us reason to leave both Misdreavus and Meditite in LC Ubers.
  • Gothita can aid in the removal of Meditite, seeing as it has Shadow Ball and resists Meditite's STABs, and Gothita can also help with removing a weakened Misdreavus.

However, as this conversation may not be healthy, in your opinion, you could address this in a manner that is healthy itself, rather than blasting your obscenities and blatant rudeness. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with theorymoning the potential outcome of what ORAS LC could become if we actually do decide to retest these threats.

(As for that last tid-bit, that may be true, however, at the time of Yanma's ban neither Archen nor Fletchling were as prominent as they currently are, and the tier was much less convoluted with an astounding amount of threats.)
 

Shrug

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Heysup said:
people are (rather absurdly, in my opinion) talking about retesting because of ORAS.....the absurdity I think, no offense, is illustrated in the latter half of this post where all of the changes do not actually influence the Pokemon that were banned to any reasonable degree.
You're completely right that the changes in ORAS have no effect on these suspects. Indeed, these changes affect little at all (increased Pancham viability? so fucking exciting). I'll disclose fully that I played in none of these metas save the Missy one (and I was too bad during it to have an opinion). However, there seem to be three re-suspects (mainly) up for discussion: Missy, Tite, and Yanma. All of the three were banned separately, and two (Meditite and Yanma) were banned along with likely more broken threats in Krow and Tangla. While there still exists the factors that make them broken (great power / support capabilities etc), introducing them together may offset the centralization they bring, especially in a meta more suited to adapt to them. For instance, it's easier to game-plan for Yanma now that you don't need to fear Krow and Tang too. again, this isn't because of ORAS changes; in fact, the reality that we received basically nothing besides a 5th Fighting type, nearly not an change, makes us want to introduce some new ideas into the meta. We have no brokenmons to test; a retest is a monthlong fun experiment if it fails, and an even more fun general metagame if it succeeds. Why not try it with things that were not 100% certain broken in different enviornments last time?
 
Just a few thoughts I have about your post.
  • Pumpkaboo gives Misdreavus actual competition as a defensive Ghost-type, or spinblocker, in this meta where all defensive Ghosts, bar the now banned Misdreavus, are absolutely terrible. Pumpkaboo also ha san actual ability to switch into Drilbur, which Misdreavus cannot do for fear of being hit by Earthquake and taking a great deal of damage. On top of this, Pumpkaboo has reliable recovery over Misdreavus, which Misdreavus would love to have.
  • Pancham gives Meditite potential competition as being a Fighting-type with an incredible offensive movepool. Pancham gains a plethora of new toys, including Knock Off, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Elemental Punches, and, less notably, Superpower. Pancham also has the ability to pivot, while also helping a team member begin its sweep, which could also give us reason to leave both Misdreavus and Meditite in LC Ubers.
  • Gothita can aid in the removal of Meditite, seeing as it has Shadow Ball and resists Meditite's STABs, and Gothita can also help with removing a weakened Misdreavus.
This is more along the lines of "reasoning" for a retest (as opposed to posting stuff that's unrelated at all) however it definitely helps me illustrate how irrelevant the buffs would be of some Pokemon in relation to the banned Pokemon.

1. Giving Pokemon competition in their role has literally nothing to do with their brokeness. Lowering usage does not influence power. (side note: even if it was, Meditite has a different role from Mienfoo, Timburr (often used together with Meditite, actually), and Pancham so I have little doubt that it wouldn't even lower the usage of Meditite even if it took from Mienfoo/Timburr).
2. Gothita cannot even KO Meditite and actually loses to it.

(here I go, humoring the idea of the new moves influencing the banned Pokemon)

While I'm at it, there are and were all more effective and definitely more viable ways of dealing with the banned Pokemon so the precedent has been set way higher than these changes, even if these changes would make a genuine impact on the metagame, would not influence the brokeness at all. I mean seriously, if you're suggesting things to the effect of "Gligar (or insert broken Pokemon) would not be broken if Pancham (insert Pokemon with new move) had Ice Punch (insert new move)!" I think the concept of a retest based on ORAS speaks for itself in that those things were around before on equal or better Pokemon and did not stop them from being broken.


However, as this conversation may not be healthy, in your opinion, you could address this in a manner that is healthy itself, rather than blasting your obscenities and blatant rudeness. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with theorymoning the potential outcome of what ORAS LC could become if we actually do decide to retest these threats.

(As for that last tid-bit, that may be true, however, at the time of Yanma's ban neither Archen nor Fletchling were as prominent as they currently are, and the tier was much less convoluted with an astounding amount of threats.)
I don't know why it offended you that I used words like "absurd" and that it is somehow a fucking obscenity (see what I did there?) but let's not let it actually detract from the point at hand.

Discussing something that could potentially lead to a rash decision, overturning decision made by people who, frankly, knew more, worked harder and definitely put more thought into their arguments than the current posts (hence the council process) is not healthy. This is not so much my "opinion" as it is an argued value judgement that's based on facts and experience. Anyone's "opinion" can be valid but their arguments may not be.

You're completely right that the changes in ORAS have no effect on these suspects. Indeed, these changes affect little at all (increased Pancham viability? so fucking exciting). I'll disclose fully that I played in none of these metas save the Missy one (and I was too bad during it to have an opinion). However, there seem to be three re-suspects (mainly) up for discussion: Missy, Tite, and Yanma. All of the three were banned separately, and two (Meditite and Yanma) were banned along with likely more broken threats in Krow and Tangla. While there still exists the factors that make them broken (great power / support capabilities etc), introducing them together may offset the centralization they bring, especially in a meta more suited to adapt to them. For instance, it's easier to game-plan for Yanma now that you don't need to fear Krow and Tang too. again, this isn't because of ORAS changes; in fact, the reality that we received basically nothing besides a 5th Fighting type, nearly not an change, makes us want to introduce some new ideas into the meta. We have no brokenmons to test; a retest is a monthlong fun experiment if it fails, and an even more fun general metagame if it succeeds. Why not try it with things that were not 100% certain broken in different enviornments last time?
The post that brought this up, I'm pretty sure, said something like 'now with ORAS changes, what about a retest'. I could be wrong, but that's the gist I'm getting from all of the posts anyway.

I'm not sure I like the idea of "let's do a retest for no logical reason at all" either, to be fair.

And why not do it? Well to put it simply, we decided that whatever "fun" those Pokemon brought to the metagame, they should be banned. This could have been for any reason the council decided, most of them for "because it's too powerful" and a few because "it makes it less fun". Either way, we already decided and recycling it does not exactly make sense with that in mind. I would ask the question "Why do it?" but I'd probably just get something I'd answer with this: All of the present arguments were analyzed already and decided upon (including but not limited to: fun, power, and centralization), taking away any reason to do it.
 
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Shrug

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Heysup said:
The post that brought this up, I'm pretty sure, said something like 'now with ORAS changes, what about a retest'. I could be wrong, but that's the gist I'm getting from all of the posts anyway.
I think you're right, and I agree: what did we get from the change to ORAS? nothing, it isn't good reasoning to argue for retests on this basis.

And why not do it? Well to put it simply, we decided that whatever "fun" those Pokemon brought to the metagame, they should be banned. This could have been for any reason the council decided, most of them for "because it's too powerful" and a few because "it makes it less fun". Either way, we already decided and recycling it does not exactly make sense with that in mind. I would ask the question "Why do it?" but I'd probably just get something I'd answer with this: All of the present arguments were analyzed already and decided upon (including but not limited to: fun, power, and centralization), taking away any reason to do it.
I, personally, feel as if the interplay between these mons may alleviate those factors you mentioned. While we looked and banned the mons for a variety of reasons, those might change based on the new meta with all of them together minus the other bans. Reading the arguments, Yanma seems sketchy (people REALLY hate the Hypnosis set, and they cite that a ton as a reason), but Tite and Missy were not as clean cut. Considering the fact that Missy seems to create a sort-of-strong playerbase opposition to the ban (which may all be user apt-get but still) and Tite was a part of a meta with the threat of Krow, the two could check one another; in addition, this may allow for a Yanma retest, sans compoundeyes, as well (it wasnt considered super broken without hypnosis). At the very least, it's something to consider. In my opinion, the possible collaboration of these elements might work to provide a better meta with these mons in it; it's possible that it would not work, and the meta would return to normal. It's perfectly fine that you feel as if the mons are well-deserving of bans, and they certainly were at their time, but it could be that together they're fine. It, in my estimation, is at least worth a test. Is that a slightly better reason (not saying you need to agree, just that it could be valid) than "ORAS Pancham unbreaks Yanma"?
 
Just an interesting side benefit to possibly doing a retest that popped into my head, and I figure I would just float it out there. Retesting banned things in general could help draw some attention to LC in a positive manner. The general tone of OU and some other tiers is basically once something is banned, there should be no talk of unbans at all, period (the ORAS thread title had "no talk of bans or Aegi" in the title of the freaking thread). I know some people, myself included, really don't like that "once it's gone, it ain't coming back mentality." Even just suspect testing Missy and Tite only to reban them right away at least shows a willingness to change and reevaluate things, and that's honestly pretty refreshing. I'm not suggesting by any means that a retest happens as a publicity stunt, but it could show a level of open-mindedness that can be hard to find in other tiers. I believe that could be a good thing in the long run.
 
I, personally, feel as if the interplay between these mons may alleviate those factors you mentioned. While we looked and banned the mons for a variety of reasons, those might change based on the new meta with all of them together minus the other bans. Reading the arguments, Yanma seems sketchy (people REALLY hate the Hypnosis set, and they cite that a ton as a reason), but Tite and Missy were not as clean cut. Considering the fact that Missy seems to create a sort-of-strong playerbase opposition to the ban (which may all be user apt-get but still) and Tite was a part of a meta with the threat of Krow, the two could check one another; in addition, this may allow for a Yanma retest, sans compoundeyes, as well (it wasnt considered super broken without hypnosis). At the very least, it's something to consider. In my opinion, the possible collaboration of these elements might work to provide a better meta with these mons in it; it's possible that it would not work, and the meta would return to normal. It's perfectly fine that you feel as if the mons are well-deserving of bans, and they certainly were at their time, but it could be that together they're fine. It, in my estimation, is at least worth a test. Is that a slightly better reason (not saying you need to agree, just that it could be valid) than "ORAS Pancham unbreaks Yanma"?
I think you may be confused as to how the suspect tests actually took place. They were actually all tested together. One (or more) Pokemon was broken when all other Pokemon were still around. Then once banned, it was rinse repeat until nothing was ban-worthy. Reintroducing a few, even at a time, does nothing but backtrack.

I think it's fair to say and really important to consider, and I believe I speak for the good of the metagame, community and a past council member, that simply redoing "contentious" bans (that is, essentially going for a different potential coin-flip with different voters/process) is undesirable for the competitiveness and validity of the metagame.
 

Vileman

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I agree with heysup, re-testing mons because what, pancham got knock off? Doesnt seems right. Its just throwing away all the suspect process and discussions of each lc uber just because "they are fun to use". Although, if there are a legit reasons for a possible retest that would be another story.
 
I really hate posts like this. You say that these bans were "less controversial," and then make these Pokemon sound as though they were so completely and obviously broken, which was not the case for Meditite and Misdreavus. Meditite and Misdreavus are two controversial bans because the entire LC community is split on the decision, some people say they were completely broken, while others believe they were just great Pokemon and fit in perfectly. Yanma is just in the spotlight because people really don't want it banned due to it having an extremely subpar typing and bulk, while also losing to a couple of huge threats in the meta, including Fletchling and Archen. I could also see a Gligar retest, as, while it did outclass everything and prevent things from shining, like Vullaby and Archen, to an extent, it is still hard walled by Archen, a mon it is trying to outclass.
I think I didn't make it clear enough so here is a better explanation: I said they are less controversial because they are less powerful compared to the other LC Ubers like Scyther, Sneasel, Gilgar, Swirlix, Tangela, and to a lesser extent Murkrow that will obviously get banned once again if they get retested. However, the "less controversial Pokémon" which are Meditite, Yanma, and to a lesser extent Misdreavus (it'll be facing a kind of competition as a support Ghost-type after Pumpkaboo gets Synthesis but its Nasty Plot set will still be strong) are powerful yes and even a little bit broken however the community was kind of split on whether to ban them or not which means that retesting them won't hurt as much as the Pokémon I mentioned before in this post and it'll create some kind of healthy discussion between the ban and no ban sides which is something LC really needs at the moment.

Also I don't really know why you think a Gilgar retest, literally the whole community agreed on its brokenness and overcentralizing and the SwirlGar meta was one of the worse metas in the LC history (GlassGlaceon I hope that you were joking when you said that Swirlix should be retested lol), I don't really want to elaborate about it as Glass said what should've been said.

Now onto the ORAS gains... The part about Gothita and Pancham gaining a slight increase is complete and utter bs, in all honesty.
  • Pancham literally has a better stat spread than Timburr, but with the ability to be a pivot. The special thing about Pancham is, while it pivots, it is also helping a pokmeon in your party set up, be it Drilbur, Pawniard, or even Nasty Plot Croagunk.
  • While Gothita gains a remarkable new niche in its already terrifying arsenal. With the ability to set up Calm Minds in the face of something you tricked a Choice Scarf, or Specs, on, Gothita is now going to be an even bigger threat.
  • You also left out Pumpkaboo which now becomes an even bigger problem for Pokemon like Drilbur and Staryu, due to it gaining reliable recovery in Synthesis. It also forms a nice core with Pawniard to keep your hazards on the field, due to Pumpkaboo beating all spinners, and Pawniard preventing people from Defogging.
Do you really think that is going to make any of the Pokémon that are banned at the moment less powerful? Like I said before Misdreavus will be facing a competition from Pumpkaboo after the latter gets Synthesis but Misdreavus still has its powerful Nasty Plot set.

And to make it clear I don't think Meditite, Yanma, and Misdreavus should be retested because Pancham and the other Pokémon got new toys to play with like I said those buffs won't have much of an impact on them, but the reason behind me along with other users that they should be retested is to shake up the metagame a little bit and reviving it from the stale state it's going through at the moment (which is cool yeah but it kind of killed the discussion and activity in LC)
 
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