Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

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I think I'm done for the night. What kind of logic is that? That's basically proving all of what I just said, that Mega-Mence is over-centralizing and restricts teambuilding. You're telling me that I can't make a team without having to use things Mamoswine, Weavile, Skarmory, Rotom-W, etc., everytime just for Mega-Mence? (Not that I have anything against those mon's) You're telling me, 100% of the teams I make, must have a Mega-Mence Counter? lol. my team is bad because it doesn't have a mega-mence counter. what a joke.
Mamoswine and Weavile aren't counters. Why did you leave out the second part? If you are actually good at offense then you dont need a mence counter, but are you really going to be consistently pulling off the double switches and predicting sub vs roost vs boost that you need to do? If you're actually good at that sort of thing then you can get by with things like thundurus, mamoswine, zapdos, and so on. If you are good at offense then you can check it with offensive mons. But if you are bad at offense, yet continue to use things like mamoswine, greninja, rotom, etc etc then your team is bad, you will get swept, and you should use a raw counter like porygon or tyranitar.

edit: pokemon like mamoswine, porygon, zapdos, rotom, slowbro, skarmory, etc are all OU regardless of mence's prescence or not. He is a centralizing force, but he's not actually forcing any bad pokemon on to anyone's teams (this is nothing like scarf golduck to counter primal groudon). Everything that checks/counters salamence is useful in OU because they will also be check/countering dragons in general, flying types in general, and are good pokemon to begin with. If your team doesn't have mence checks of course it's bad, because that means you're also not checking pinsir, talonflame, garchomp, or any other threatening sweeper.
 
Mamoswine and Weavile aren't counters. Why did you leave out the second part? If you are actually good at offense then you dont need a mence counter, but are you really going to be consistently pulling off the double switches and predicting sub vs roost vs boost that you need to do? If you're actually good at that sort of thing then you can get by with things like thundurus, mamoswine, zapdos, and so on. If you are good at offense then you can check it with offensive mons. But if you are bad at offense, yet continue to use things like mamoswine, greninja, rotom, etc etc then your team is bad, you will get swept, and you should use a raw counter like porygon or tyranitar.
Let me rephrase that, checks and counters. There. I left out the second part, because I didn't feel like reading and I come across to have read that specific part onlu. (playing ORAS along as well) The point of Sub-DD-Roost, is to first set up DD or Sub on something you know you can set up on, but more than likely Sub than DD. Why do you think someone is going try to set up a Sub or DD against Offense? Once Mega-Mence gets behind Sub on a mon' it can set up on, it's free to DD. And it's either you opponent switches out into their 'check' or 'counter', or let Mega-Salamence set up. Mega Salamence has very high reward, super low risk because in both scenarios, Mega-Salamence wins. If opponent A switches in their 'check' or 'counter', opponent B has always has high reward and is at +1 behind sub. Opponent breaks sub? Oh, it doesn't matter, because you're catching this STAB, Base 140, 255 Happiness, +1 Return from a fucking Mega Salamence. If opponent B decides to stay in and let the Mega-Mence do it's thing, Mega Mence wins. If Mega-Mence is always going to win these scenarios, then it's considered broken. You also have to remember that this a 6v6 singles. So Mega-Mence has teammates that can help eliminate offensive/defensive threats to Mega-Salamence, such as Magnezone trapping Skarm/Ferro, a highly offensive mon- Greninja, Healing Wish Latias, etc. Once these teammates help weaken or eliminate these threats, Mega-Mence is 200% guaranteed to sweep.
 
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Clone

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I have yet to see one logical argument from you. You mentioned how offense is gonna shut down Mence because youll predict his every more right every time. Ok. Sure, I guess we all have to read minds like you do. And how does this even tie into being good or bad at offense? Last I checked offense was the go-to playstyle for many top players, and many top players still lose to Mence. So I guess that theyre bad too, despite having had renowned success in multiple other formats.

Additionally, if I have to carry one of a select few counters just to handle Mence, then how is that in any way healthy for the meta? Its not like with Birds or latios or Greninja or w/e where I can get away with only one check, and even if I lose that check I still have a chance. With Mence, the second you lose your "counter" (using the term loosely btw cuz theyre non existant), you lose to Mence. Hes setting up against a max Attack Landorus-T's Stone Edge. When it hits every time. When youre doing that, theres a problem. And yes, these "counters" you listed are all OU. But that doesnt change the fact that they dont fit on every team, and forcing offene to run a random Skarmory to handle Mence is the literal definition of overcentralization to the point of overpoweredness.

Everyone whos debated your points (minus a few but w/e) have made valid arguments that disprove your invalid ones. Please stop acting like youre right when youre at the point where youre grasping straws to try and save what little reputaion you may have left. Mence is broken beyond a reasonable doubt, and everyone but you can see it. Please stop cluttering the thread with your incessant bullshit that has no validity to it whatsoever.
 
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There's absolutely no denying that Mega Salamence deserves to be either suspected or quick-banned. So why not quick ban it so we can see what happens in the rest of the meta, but then immediately set up a suspect ladder in which you can use it? In other words, we'd get to have a Menceless ORAS OU ladder, but we'd also get to have another ladder in which we got to determine the fate of this powerhouse. In all honesty everyone knows it's too powerful for OU, but if we did do a suspect after a quick-ban we could at least put the matter to rest for good in order to look into the rest of the megas and the rest of the meta.
 
Things that normally instagib Dragon/Flying mons like Garchomp, Mamoswine, Weavile, Landorus-T, all can't OHKO it from full HP. Nothing that can take every single attack from Mega Mence can actually KO it, and the list includes Skarmory, Mega-Slowbro, Porygon2, Cresselia, Ferrothorn. It has Dragon Dance so it only needs one turn to outspeed any would-be revenge killer. Ubers can't even handle this thing, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Lugia are ALL set-up fodder, regular Groudon can't beat it 1v1, it straight up counters SD Mega-Ray because it's faster and takes 2/3 from +2 Extremespeed from Mega Ray with a 4/0 defensive spread, even Arceus is afraid of this motherfucker. People will probably end up running shit like Scarf Mewtwo as well to deal with it in fucking Ubers. It makes even traditionally quickbanned Pokemon quake in their boots. If that's not quickban worthy, you have to ask yourself: what is?
 

ginganinja

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If you are actually good at offense then you dont need a mence counter,
Guess every single well respected battler than I have had the pleasure of talking to on smogon are not "good at offense" since anyone with a barely functioning IQ knows that running a Mence counter/check is pretty much essential in this metagame. Its a credit to Mence that people are going to extraordinary lengths in which to counter/check Mega Mence...AND STILL think its unhealthy for the metagame. If I see you make a second post that contains the above quoted argument I will infract you, no exceptions.
 
56k

I have yet to see one logical argument from you. You mentioned how offense is gonna shut down Mence because youll predict his every more right every time. Ok. Sure, I guess we all have to read minds like you do. And how does this even tie into being good or bad at offense? Last I checked offense was the go-to playstyle for many top players, and many top players still lose to Mence. So I guess that theyre bad too, despite having had renowned success in multiple other formats.

Additionally, if I have to carry one of a select few counters just to handle Mence, then how is that in any way healthy for the meta? Its not like with Birds or latios or Greninja or w/e where I can get away with only one check, and even if I lose that check I still have a chance. With Mence, the second you lose your "counter" (using the term loosely btw cuz theyre non existant), you lose to Mence. Hes setting up against a max Attack Landorus-T's Stone Edge. When it hits every time. When youre doing that, theres a problem. And yes, these "counters" you listed are all OU. But that doesnt change the fact that they dont fit on every team, and forcing offene to run a random Skarmory to handle Mence is the literal definition of overcentralization to the point of overpoweredness.

Everyone whos debated your points (minus a few but w/e) have made valid arguments that disprove your invalid ones. Please stop acting like youre right when youre at the point where youre grasping straws to try and save what little reputaion you may have left. Mence is broken beyond a reasonable doubt, and everyone but you can see it. Please stop cluttering the thread with your incessant bullshit that has no validity to it whatsoever.
Offensive teams have pokemon that easily survive 1 unboosted hit and 1hko mence or outspeed status it (these are checks). For them it is a game of preventing the setup, which can only be done if they make sure to keep something in that threatens mence. But those same pokemon that "keep mence out" can do other things like set up hazards, defog, recover, or just plain attack. It's up to that player to decide their own risk/reward, use a move that does decent damage to whatever is in and also keeps mence out, or make a prediction and go for rocks or attack the switch in.

It's your own choice to play that way, if you're confident in your guesswork then go ahead with a pure offense team. If you want to be safer then you run multiple checks (skarmory, thundurus, etc etc) which have multitudes of usefulness beyond simply dealing with certain mence sets. They were OU to begin with just for resisting flying and having massive utility. If you want to be almost 100% safe (crits, hax, missing, it's pokemon etc) then just run a counter (and don't put it in quotes "counter" lol they exist)

The things that check mence are not few and far between. More than half of OU "deals with it" in their own way, whether through strong fairy/ice/rock/dragon attacks, status, insane bulk, phazing, etc. Greninja, slowbro, porygon, diancie, metagross, skarmory, tyranitar, steelix, zapdos, rotom, thundurus, terakion, latias, sylveon, clefable, rhyperior, sableye, klefki, noivern, ferrothorn, talonflame, doublade, and so on. Every single one of those pokemon is useful against various salamence sets (which is why I can't use a blanket word like "check" because each has their own method of fucking with it)

Overcentralizing does not apply at all, because everything that works well agaisnt salamence is already around to begin with. They were dealing with pinsir, talonflame, flying spam, kyurem, dragons, and physical sweepers before. Now they additionally deal with salamence by default. Even if salamence was banned you'd still be using the exact same pokemon that you were using before, because they are all useful in many situations.

So to recap:

Not uncounterable (there are 3 or 4)
Not uncheckable (loose check definition here, but, more than half of OU/BL/UU can status it, kill it, revenge kill, "keep it out", "prevent it from boosting")
Not overcentralizing (everything that is good against mence is inherently good against all of OU -- flying spam, dragon spam, sweepers in general)
Not restricting teambuilding (if mence was banned and you suddenly dropped all your mence checks in glee, you'd be swept by pinsir or mega latios or something)
Not uncompetitive (nothing regarding mence comes close to the randomness of moody or swagger, the nature of BP teams, or the silliness of mega gengar)
Is currently the strongest mega (yes it is, but this could change)


If you are actually good at offense then you dont need a mence counter,

Guess every single well respected battler than I have had the pleasure of talking to on smogon are not "good at offense" since anyone with a barely functioning IQ knows that running a Mence counter/check is pretty much essential in this metagame. Its a credit to Mence that people are going to extraordinary lengths in which to counter/check Mega Mence...AND STILL think its unhealthy for the metagame. If I see you make a second post that contains the above quoted argument I will infract you, no exceptions.
That's not what i said, I said that offensive teams use checks instead of counters!
 
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Karxrida

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AFAIK there is nothing that counters MegaMence to a satisfactory degree (by that I mean all of its sets that AREN'T run specifically to beat said counter) that would be considered often in teambuilding if MegaMence wasnt present. When a single pokemon bends the meta to such a degree that a team pretty much has to run it and/ or multiple Checks / counters to it, its a sure sign that its significantly better than the competition, and is unhealthy for the current state of OU. Theres no harm in a quickban now, and once the meta settles down having a potential suspect to see if it is truly broken in a settled state of OU, or the council could wait and suspect test, there really is no harm in either approach other than this potentially effecting ongoing tournaments (iirc the ladder tournaments on?)

'

broken mon countering broken mon = balance metagame idea leads to a horribly shit version of a metagame, just look at BW for evidence. BW OU had politoed, ninetales and to an extent ttar completly centralizing the meta to the point where stupidly powerful pokemon such as Kyurem - B were introduced into the meta. If you need to drag a proven broken pokemon back into OU to fix a pokemon, isnt that a surefire sign that pokemon is broken?
While I agree with your main point, Kyurem-B's drop was influenced by other factors; no Physical Ice STAB to abuse huge Attack stat, redundant typing offensively, horrible defensive typing which included a Rocks weakness, couldn't abuse a Choice Scarf as well as would have like to, etc. The fact that it's still around in OU is a testament to how balanced it actually is, and people are even asking it to drop out of A- rank in the Viability thread (I think? It's late and I might be misremembering).

People also seem to be forgetting that most of the "counters" they bring up to beat Mega Salamence only really deal with SubRoostDD. What if it's MixMence (DD or 4 Attacks), Special Mence, DD 2/3 Attacks? What do you do when your counter gets hit by a Draco Meteor or Hyper Voice as they switch in (the prediction isn't hard since everyone assumes it's SubRoostDD and will throw their Rotom-W at you without any hesitation)? You're just boned, and Mega Salamence just possibly crippled your team to the point that even if you kill it, you've already lost. Your opponent still has 5 other Mons you have to deal with, one of which might be a Healing Wish user so Mence can go for round 2 if you didn't kill it.
 
Just seeing the stats with the ability aerialate told me that MegaMence was going to wreck. Although its normal version was stuck in Borderline, a good team could use Salamence to do damage to any team. The weaknesses were the bulk and typing. Now with great bulk and intimidate, Salamence is going to be and should be headed straight to ubers, no questions.
 
Goodbye megamence, I knew you'd be too overpowered the day you were announced. They all said I was being ridiculous, who's ridiculous now?

Quickban MegaMence
 
All arguments have been made, I don't want to repeat any of them and there is only one conclusion for me:

The faster it's gone the better!

Though I appreciate the patience of the council not to rush things but it's really in vain in this case.
 

Albacore

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Offensive teams have pokemon that easily survive 1 unboosted hit and 1hko mence or outspeed status it (these are checks). For them it is a game of preventing the setup, which can only be done if they make sure to keep something in that threatens mence. But those same pokemon that "keep mence out" can do other things like set up hazards, defog, recover, or just plain attack. It's up to that player to decide their own risk/reward, use a move that does decent damage to whatever is in and also keeps mence out, or make a prediction and go for rocks or attack the switch in.
You're assuming MMence will always be facing something that can stop it from setting up, and the only way that can happen is if the MMence user is dumb enough to send it it on Greninja or Scarf Latios, instead of Landorus-T or Landorus-I or Keldeo locked into anything other than Icy Wind or Heatran or Scarf Magnezone or MLopunny or MGallade or Excadrill or one of the many, many things it can use as setup fodder. You can only "prevent Mence from setting up" if every single one of your Pokemon is a Mence check. And I'm sorry, but you can't make an offensive team (or any team in general) with 6 Pokemon that beat MMence 1v1, or you will literally just lose to the rest of the metagame. In other words, Mono-Ice has never been viable in OU
It's your own choice to play that way, if you're confident in your guesswork then go ahead with a pure offense team. If you want to be safer then you run multiple checks (skarmory, thundurus, etc etc) which have multitudes of usefulness beyond simply dealing with certain mence sets. They were OU to begin with just for resisting flying and having massive utility. If you want to be almost 100% safe (crits, hax, missing, it's pokemon etc) then just run a counter (and don't put it in quotes "counter" lol they exist)
If you need to run both Thundurus and Skarmory on the same team just to deal with one threat then something is very, very wrong. Running multiple checks to one Pokemon=making yourself much weaker to everything else. And yes, counters do exist, but the only thing which counters all sets afaik are Phys Def Reflect Cresselia (which literally can only be used on full stall because of how much it kills momentum) and Phys Def P2 (who is and has always been a niche option in OU). You say that the only way for offense to beat MMence is by "guesswork" (which in itself is pretty distessing), but that's not even true in the first place. There is literally no skill or prediction or guesswork involved in using MMence, especially the Sub set : just Sub on defensive stuff that can't touch you, Roost on offensive threats that can't 2HKO you to stall them out, DD if doing so lets you win from there, spam Return otherwise. No skill at all.
The things that check mence are not few and far between. More than half of OU "deals with it" in their own way, whether through strong fairy/ice/rock/dragon attacks, status, insane bulk, phazing, etc. Greninja, slowbro, porygon, diancie, metagross, skarmory, tyranitar, steelix, zapdos, rotom, thundurus, terakion, latias, sylveon, clefable, rhyperior, sableye, klefki, noivern, ferrothorn, talonflame, doublade, and so on.
okay here we go. Fairy/ice/rock/dragon attack users usually get outsped and 2HKO'd and can't even OHKO back. Status is stopped by Sub or Refresh. Insane bulk needs to be paired with an Ice move to actually deal w/ MMence (and besides doesn't fit on offensive teams). Phazing is lol b/c you still take a Return to the face and don't actually deal with it, just delay the problem. Almost everything else you mentioned is screwed if MMence runs something other than just Sub DD or even loses at +1. Greninja can't switch in and needs to be scarfed to revenge kill it. Slowbro needs to run Ice Beam and is 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor, can't even OHKO back w/ Ice Beam. Diancie is OHKO'd by EQ at +1. Metagross is setup fodder unless it runs Ice Punch which is only useful for hitting MMence in the first place and just makes its 4MSS way worse. Skarmory needs Taunt+Counter to beat it, loses to Fire Blast. TTar is 2HKO'd by EQ at +1, can't OHKO back. not even gonna adress Steelix becuase it is completely unviable. Rotom needs to run way too much SpA investment to beat it. defensive Sylveon can't OHKO, offensive Sylveon is OHKO'd. Clefable is 2HKO'd, can't OHKO back. Rhyperior loses to Draco Meteor, Sableye loses to Refresh, Noiverns needs be scarfed and can't switch in, lmao Ferro is the very definition of setup fodder, so are Talon and Doublade, idk why you even mentioned those.
Every single one of those pokemon is useful against various salamence sets (which is why I can't use a blanket word like "check" because each has their own method of fucking with it)
yeah but being "useful" isn't enough lol. Just because something doesn't outright die to MMence does not make it an actual answer to it. The fact that you can't even use the word "check" for most of these Pokemon just shows that they do not handle it at all, you literally just listed all the thing that don't straight up lose to it (and even some that do)

just for the sake of argument here is the list of viable things that are "useful" against MKhan :

fighting attacks insane bulk phazing wearing it down faster sucker punch resists terrakion keldeo cobalion sableye slowbro landorus-t hippodwon chesnaught ferrothorn garchomp skarmory conkeldurr breloom gengar heracross medicham mew talonflame greninja infernape mandibuzz meinshao mega-aggron tangrowth houndoom alomomola slowbro quagsire rhyperior also you can assume all of these are running rocky helmet just like everything in MMence meta is running HP Ice.

Overcentralizing does not apply at all, because everything that works well agaisnt salamence is already around to begin with. They were dealing with pinsir, talonflame, flying spam, kyurem, dragons, and physical sweepers before. Now they additionally deal with salamence by default.
I literally have never seen a Porygon-2 in OU before ORAS besides a couple of Trick Room teams. Now it is everywhere. How is that not overcentralisation? Also, how is the fact that everything is running an Ice move not proof of overcentralisation too?
Even if salamence was banned you'd still be using the exact same pokemon that you were using before, because they are all useful in many situations.
I can assure you that scarf Greninja will not be a thing with MMence gone. Neither will Ice Punch Gallade. Or 168 SpA Rotom-W.
So to recap:
Not uncounterable (there are 3 or 4)
EKiller Arceus has more counters than this
Not uncheckable (loose check definition here, but, more than half of OU/BL/UU can status it, kill it, revenge kill, "keep it out", "prevent it from boosting")
of course it's not uncheckable, nothing is uncheckable lol how is that even an argument
Not overcentralizing (everything that is good against mence is inherently good against all of OU -- flying spam, dragon spam, sweepers in general)
yes it is
Not restricting teambuilding (if mence was banned and you suddenly dropped all your mence checks in glee, you'd be swept by pinsir or mega latios or something)
yes it is
Not uncompetitive (nothing regarding mence comes close to the randomness of moody or swagger, the nature of BP teams, or the silliness of mega gengar)
mence promotes skilless play which is definitely uncompetetive
Is currently the strongest mega (yes it is, but this could change)
no it couldn't
 
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dialganet

Banned deucer.
Quickban.
We've come to the point when you have to worry to kill something with your scarfed Garchomp with a dragon move to not let this thing set up. It can stall out non ice super effective moves, refresh status, even gain an extra turn on Roosting on something like stone edge or rock slide, destroy every single check by running a single extra offensive move and you still have 5 teamslots to work around what's left.
It's bulkier than M-Mom, sets up easier and is faster then M-Luke, has almost the same offensive output as Pinsir with an infinitely better movepool and the option to be mixed.
Honestly, M-Luke was way more manageable.
 
(Offensive teams) can only "prevent Mence from setting up" if every single one of your Pokemon is a Mence check. And I'm sorry, but you can't make an offensive team (or any team in general) with 6 Pokemon that beat MMence 1v1, or you will literally just lose to the rest of the metagame.
That's not quite right, instead if means that you need to be careful about the timing and placing the checks in/out of the field. (which is exactly what high level pokemon has always been) For example, if you currently have something out that is setup fodder for mence but kills whatever is in front of you, then you need to think twice before simply killing it. It'd probably be better to switch to something that can not only deal with what's on the field but can also threaten/prevent salamence. Voltturn would be the best move to have in this case. This is a very common situation for every sweeper in the game. It is easier for defensive teams to do because they usually have pokemon that wall/check/counter multiple things (whatever the opponent has on the field) and can also attack or cripple mence (depending on set)


If you need to run both Thundurus and Skarmory on the same team just to deal with one threat then something is very, very wrong. Running multiple checks to one Pokemon=making yourself much weaker to everything else.
But that's exactly what I'm trying to refute, because everything that works well against mence is also very useful against thinks like kyurem, latios, pinsir, garchomp, talonflame, landorus, basically anything that shares a common typing and plenty of other random things (i.e. skarm will beat scizors and excadrills too). Not only that, but having tools like prankster or just a flat wall on your team are useful in a large variety of situations as well. For example, having both thundurus and skarmory on your team isn't a bad place to start at all (even if mence was banned) and then just build around it. It seems to be a balanced approach. A more offensive team could use thundurus/greninja/weavile, which are all very good against the whole meta at large. Running mence checks doesnt make you weak against other stuff -if the team is well built!-


You say that the only way for offense to beat MMence is by "guesswork" (which in itself is pretty distessing), but that's not even true in the first place. There is literally no skill or prediction or guesswork involved in using MMence, especially the Sub set : just Sub on defensive stuff that can't touch you, Roost on offensive threats that can't 2HKO you to stall them out, DD if doing so lets you win from there, spam Return otherwise. No skill at all.
Every pokemon running sub or boosting moves does the same thing -_- it's not skill-less to actually manufacture the situation in the first place where you actually freely get in on something and have a chance to set up. It is HARD to do. Between double switches, voltturn, priority, surprise/gimmick sets, what have you, getting setup doesn't just magically happen every single time.

Almost every single high level replay ever since 4th gen has always come down to complete guesses or predictions or luck at the end (should I attack them while they boost? or should i switch to a soft check while they attack me? should I attack while he tries to substitute? or should I status while he tries to roost?)

Every high level game right now, just as before, is going to come down to the same sorts of thing. Should I toxic it while it roosts? What if it subs? What if it isn't a bulky set at all and I can just 1hko it? This applies to every threatening sweeper out there. Almost every good game between offensive teams has always been decided in the final turns where someone guesses wrong (think prankster taunt twave thundurus vs the entire meta, a few months ago, where everything is speed ties and guessing their final move) More offensive teams have to get the guesses right more often whereas bulkier teams often an afford a few more mistakes.


okay here we go. Fairy/ice/rock/dragon attack users usually ... loses to ... needs be scarfed ... can't switch in... being "useful" isn't enough ... you can't even use the word "check" ... you literally just listed all the thing that don't straight up lose to it ...
Why did you phrase everything that way though? Pointing out the weakness that each check option has? It's just as valid to list it out like this:

sub/dd/roost/return loses to xxxxx, yyyyy, zzzzz, etc, etc
dd/refresh/roost/return loses to aaa, bbb, ccc, ddd, etc
dd/3attacks loses to 1, 2, 3, 4, etc etc
dd/facade/return/roost loses to q, r, s, t, u, etc etc
4attacks loses to w, x, y, z

And so on. Ofc you can break down each check and decide which mence set will beat it. And you can likewise beat each set. <_<

Look, there are 1000s of people all at the same skill level roughly at the top of the ladder or who could compete equally in a tournament. As soon as you click "Find Battle" you have a 50% chance to win or lose. And anything higher than 50% is actually magnificent considering you're fighting people exactly the same as you.

You can't cover every mence set and you can't cover every [[any OU sweeper]] set either, with only checks. Many OUs don't have any true counters at all.


I literally have never seen a Porygon-2 in OU before ORAS besides a couple of Trick Room teams. Now it is everywhere. How is that not overcentralisation? Also, how is the fact that everything is running an Ice move not proof of overcentralisation too?
Porygon is being drawn up by multiple forces, not just salamence. It's good against greninja, slowbro, all kinds of things. It has been common on stall teams for months before. But stall wasn't popular due to heracross and gardeoivoir and other things like that.

All the HP Ice things are used by electric types and boltbeam has always been a thing, it's even more important now.



It is centralizing but debating whether it's normalcentralizing or actually overcentralizing just sounds exhausting.



It's not overcentralizing yes it is
It's not restricting teambuilding yes it is
It's not uncompetitive definitely uncompetetive


It's only banworthy if nothing will ever drop from ubers. If things slowly start to drop in for research and OU gets a massive power creep in general (regardless of its effects on stall) then things should just wait until then. In such a situation, you could have 2 random salamence checks (like greninja and rotom) on your team and they would also be useful and fare very well against the entire theoretical OU. And you'd win against some mence teams and lose against others.
 
It's only banworthy if nothing will ever drop from ubers. If things slowly start to drop in for research and OU gets a massive power creep in general (regardless of its effects on stall) then things should just wait until then. In such a situation, you could have 2 random salamence checks (like greninja and rotom) on your team and they would also be useful and fare very well against the entire theoretical OU. And you'd win against some mence teams and lose against others.
If you need something broken to drop to stop MMence, then it's broken.
 
It's only banworthy if nothing will ever drop from ubers. If things slowly start to drop in for research and OU gets a massive power creep in general (regardless of its effects on stall) then things should just wait until then. In such a situation, you could have 2 random salamence checks (like greninja and rotom) on your team and they would also be useful and fare very well against the entire theoretical OU. And you'd win against some mence teams and lose against others.
Well what are we discussing here then? From what i could gather the only thing that MIGHT come back someday is Aegi due to how close the vote was and because it was influenced by the bandwaggon effect you can see here all so often. So no there wont be any mence checks that come back down from übers, most of the things there are banned for a reason and bringing back broken stuff to check broken stuff is an idiotic way of balancing.
 
Why does everyone keep saying that <_< you dont need anything from ubers to stop mence (but some of them could be good at it)

Instead it'd be some sort of even playing field where OU is a lot more powerful than everyone's currently used to.
 
56K You picked two of the worst examples of pokemon to use as checks. Greninja can only reliably revenge Mence when it's scarfed, and Rotom-W can only break Mence's sub with Volt Switch or kill it with HP Ice if it puts heavy investment into sp. atk. Both of these sets are sub-optimal against the rest of the meta. Besides, neither of them are even good checks to every set. Greninja cannot switch in on anything other than a resisted or neutral coverage move, and if Mence has a sub up then it's dead meat. Sure, Rotom resists flying, but it gets nuked by a Draco Meteor coming from the special set. This is the thing, it has a bunch of different sets that are all extremely powerful, they all have different checks and counters, and there's no way to tell which one it is until it's already mega evolved and is blasting you in the face - if you guessed wrong, you probably just lost a Pokémon, and that's the best case scenario. It's just as bad as Mega Lucario, potentially even worse. This thing has got to go, end of story.
 
Why does everyone keep saying that <_< you dont need anything from ubers to stop mence (but some of them could be good at it)

Instead it'd be some sort of even playing field where OU is a lot more powerful than everyone's currently used to.
A bunch of things dropping to OU from Ubers (Remember, BROKEN Pokemon) will indeed turn OU into an even playing field... as long as you don't stray away from, if lucky, 10 Pokemon. Likely less.
 

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Why does everyone keep saying that <_< you dont need anything from ubers to stop mence (but some of them could be good at it)
56k said:
It's only banworthy if nothing will ever drop from ubers.
Quote from yours truly. Like any same person would say, having to bring stuff down to Ubers just to potentially balance a mon just screams broken in every way. Broken mon A checking broken mon B doesn't make broken mon B any less broken. This would be the exact same scenario with Mence and these theoretical drops you're proposing.
 
56K You picked two of the worst examples of pokemon to use as checks. Greninja can only reliably revenge Mence when it's scarfed, and Rotom-W can only break Mence's sub with Volt Switch or kill it with HP Ice if it puts heavy investment into sp. atk. Both of these sets are sub-optimal against the rest of the meta. Besides, neither of them are even good checks to every set. Greninja cannot switch in on anything other than a resisted or neutral coverage move, and if Mence has a sub up then it's dead meat. Sure, Rotom resists flying, but it gets nuked by a Draco Meteor coming from the special set. This is the thing, it has a bunch of different sets that are all extremely powerful, they all have different checks and counters, and there's no way to tell which one it is until it's already mega evolved and is blasting you in the face - if you guessed wrong, you probably just lost a Pokémon, and that's the best case scenario. It's just as bad as Mega Lucario, potentially even worse. This thing has got to go, end of story.
Check usually means that something can kill another thing if they both had come in at the same time, for free, which greninja does
But counter means that the opponent has gotten a free turn already, which greninja cant do. He's a check
I agree that there's no way to know which mence set they're using. But I don't agree that there is anything unique about that.
 
I agree that there's no way to know which mence set they're using. But I don't agree that there is anything unique about that.
Let's compare MMence with Aegislash and MMawile:
- One of Aegislash's reasons for it was voted for banning is that you only knew it carried Shadow Ball. The other three moves meant whether your means to stop it work or not. Likely the second.
- One of MMawile's reasons for it was voted for banning is that you only knew it carried Sucker Punch and Play Rough. The other two moves meant whether your means to stop it work or not. Likely the second.

Meanwhile, MMence does not rely on any move in particular to use an effective set.
 
Quote from yours truly. Like any same person would say, having to bring stuff down to Ubers just to potentially balance a mon just screams broken in every way. Broken mon A checking broken mon B doesn't make broken mon B any less broken. This would be the exact same scenario with Mence and these theoretical drops you're proposing.
You don't have to bring anything down to deal with salamence!

He is already counterable, people have been using their choice of checks, and it's a vastly variable situation where (of course) different sets have their own counters. But some pokemon really do counter all sets. He is a defining force at the moment because offensive teams don't really have any better mega to be using except possibly metagross or lati@s.

I'm not saying "We need ubers to deal with salamence!!" -- What I AM saying (for pages at this point) is

The term "broken" is being used completely too loosely at this point. Maybe you could just call it "adequately powerful for the modern xy oras ou tier"

By 4th gen standards? Ok, they're broken. But at this point there's some unsalvageable aspect of ye olde 6v6 singles and whatever you think broken or overpowered actually means might be an exxageration.
 
The meta will still be rid with power creep and be a terrible meta without Mega Mence, but maybe once this broken impossible to reliably switch-in against Pokemon is gone we can start worrying about the remaining broken Pokemon that are crap because of an even more broken Pokemon.

More or less just a rant, but everybody already explained why Mence should be quickbanned, quickban.
 
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