So Sand Rush Garchomp was removed for being broken, even though it had legitimate answers (Cresselia and Togekiss in particular answer it well) but this kind of overcentralizing is healthy? Forcing offensive and HO teams to carrying clerics isn't too overcentralizing? Without a cleric or Heal Bell support you more often then not lose to a Liepard team, and there is only one viable HO Heal Bell user (Mega Lopunny). There are bans for mons that force HO teams to carry specific counters, that turn those teams into "shitty balance teams." I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but forcing HO teams to carry non-HO mons (basically any cleric) classifies as overcentralizing. Look at Sand Rush Exca. It had a decent amount of answers, but those answers really don't fit on offensive teams. Would you make the argument that offensive teams should have just carried Skarm? Because now you are asking offensive teams to carry Sylveon, Chansey or Clefable (or use the one Mega slot on Lopunny), who, outside of answering one mon, have no place on HO teams. Where does the line between Rush Mega Garchomp and DV Liepard fall exactly? You could make the argument that "if your teams doesn't have the bulk to handle Mega Garchomp, that's not a problem with Mega Garchomp, thats a problem with your teams bulk." Also, no ones acting like sleep or para kill something, but sleep in particular is a guaranteed sidelining for a few turns,and that's sometimes all you need. The real issue, especially with Dark Void, is that it has no type based immunity. Prankster Spore can be mitigated to a degree by just carrying a Grass type, Prankster T-Wave the same with Electric and Grounds types. Dark Void has no type based switch-in, which puts it into a slightly higher tier of brokenness imo.
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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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But sableyes offensive stats are worse, infernape has fantastic speed and great mixed attack stats, Sableye defensive typing is what lets it do its stalling best cause Fairy is one weakness and its hard to break a pokemon without hitting it super effectively, but infernape has a lot of common weaknesses that no matter how much investment, it'll still die. Ground and Flying i would say being the most prevalent, and if you wanna go full physical to try and tank the hits, you'll get wrecked by water and psychic attacks. I can see the utility and the point of view with sableye, its just if i want to use a utility mon to spread burns, i would just use sableye at that point and use Nape as a wall breaker because they typing goes a longer way than the stats in my opinion.
Edit: id like to back up my reasoning with calcs, but its down at the moment :/
Your entire argument revolving around HO falls on deaf ears. I'm a stall player, and has the community given two shits about centralizing threats to stall? Fuck no. I won't endorse that argument. Forcing HO to adapt to a threat is the same as forcing Stall to adapt after the Aegislash ban. At the end of the day, certain playstyles are less viable. Through actions of the community (i.e. Suspect results), I have found the player base to care little for protecting playstyles, and more for keeping a sense of balance in the metagame. Liepard would not create an imbalance the same way Sand Rush Mega Garchomp would. Chomp would steamroll teams while being difficult to prepare for. Liepard--or--status abuse can easily be prepared for by simply carrying Heal Bell.
Well, as a primarily balanced player, I find the positive centralizing argument intriguing, but ultimately not enough to get me to look past all the inevitable battles I'll end up having a much harder time winning, no matter how much better I am than my opponent I am, just because I won't be able to set up my win condition until liepard's gone. That's why I hate prankster, it decreases the number options the other player has. Granted, I do concede Dragonite and other sweepers can get past it, so I won't be too bummed out if leopard wins, but I'd much rather see something like Milotic win because it can be a great tool for defensive teams, but also has many reliable ways to be countered via rocks, volt turn, status, etc. Pokes like that increase the diversity of the game without making other play styles run inferior teams.
Okay so you're cool with banning Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham? Stall would really appreciate being viable again.
Except DV Liepard hurts stall, too. Between priority Taunt/Encore, STAB Knock Off and the fact that forcing a team to use Heal Bell (especially if Encored) can give your team the setup opportunity it needs to sweep, DV Liepard is no great boon to stall, or to any playstyle.
DV liepard is hardly an issue for stall. They can handle status just fine. Stall can easily operate with something put to sleep.
So, running Lopunny, Altaria, Celebi, Roserade, or running Sleep Talk on one of your pokemon is impossible?
Actually, I'd just unban aegislash, but even that isn't too necessary as slowbro and sableye will shake things up plenty, assuming we ban salamence
To answer your question, no, I don't support bans against things unless they fit the definition of broken or uncompetitive, but this is more about my personal banning philosophy than any preference regarding play style
Regarding theorymon specifically, I'll always vote for the option that provides the most options in battle
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Celebi, Roserade and Heal Bell Altaria really don't fit on HO teams at all. Well, I guess Altaria could fit on some HO teams with a set of DD/Return/Heal Bell/Roost. If your suggesting randomly running Sleep Talk on non-RestTalk sets, that's a huge sign of crippling over-centralization.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
Actually HO often carry a "cleric" to give its sweepers another chance ti sweep. I'm referring to healing wish users, normally latias But in oras we get another reliable user in lopunny, so i don't think DV on liepard will force HO to run heal bell/aromatherapy because it makes you lose pressure on your opponent and common clerics are passive mons that just don't fit HO teams. This will end up with every HO obliged to run lopunny/latias and i don't know how healty it is.
Furthermore a mon like liepard will likely be abused by offensive teams more than defensive and it will result in even more offensive teams and a more match-up influenced metagame. And yeah i think everyone agrees that giving prankster users other status moves to abuse is like spreading cancer
Furthermore a mon like liepard will likely be abused by offensive teams more than defensive and it will result in even more offensive teams and a more match-up influenced metagame. And yeah i think everyone agrees that giving prankster users other status moves to abuse is like spreading cancer
I mean considering ORAS is here and considering that stall has become more viable than ever now than it was in XY Idk how this is considered an argument that DV liepard will somehow balance out the meta. In my own personal opinion I don't think it'll actually provide anything positively influential outside of some mon that players will just put for a support mon that doesn't even benefit from a defensive typing or defensive BSTs. Stall was fine in XY as well after the hype of the 3 big wallbreakers so to speak. The difference is that you couldn't sit on your ass and just wall stuff the entire match relying on purely passive damage. Even now you have to make plays of sort to utilize an effective stall build and can't just go off of reactive plays every turn. Sooner or late you would have to go on the offensive either through hazard stacking or continuously forcing players to switch via double switching. So as far as DV Liepard goes I think it's a generally cool idea but if the argument is that it'll somehow balance the meta out by making Hyper Offensive builds for the most part become balanced teams, then no that's not really balancing. Liepard would basically have a way, and in reality still does, to hurt all playstyles. From a stall standpoint in this metagame a wall losing its ability to provide its team mate options through support moves or in the case of something like Jirachi, offensive utility hurts stall as well.
It's not as overpowered as some people are stating cause in reality Liepard on an OU team is basically a 5.5 vs 6. The way people will adapt is just running lum berry on stuff that normally wouldn't as Liepard will just fall to the sheer power of builds as well. I probably won't vote for DV Liepard not because of the whole balancing argument alone but the fact that it's just a lame mon by itself lol. I rather utilize something like Multiscale Milotic where that right there can improve both balanced and stall builds in a more natural way than forcing players to just click on Dark Void and give themselves the illusion that there is some sort of competition going on.
It's not as overpowered as some people are stating cause in reality Liepard on an OU team is basically a 5.5 vs 6. The way people will adapt is just running lum berry on stuff that normally wouldn't as Liepard will just fall to the sheer power of builds as well. I probably won't vote for DV Liepard not because of the whole balancing argument alone but the fact that it's just a lame mon by itself lol. I rather utilize something like Multiscale Milotic where that right there can improve both balanced and stall builds in a more natural way than forcing players to just click on Dark Void and give themselves the illusion that there is some sort of competition going on.
I think people are extrapolating a bit when they reference my argument that stall becomes more viable. I never said that liepard itself would increase the viability of stall. What I said was that offensive teams sacrificing coverage to handle liepard/status abuse would benefit stall. I just wanna clear things up so that people aren't misquoting me.
I'd actually posit that forcing things to run Lum Berry is a relatively significant adaptation. Running Lum Berry has always come at the opportunity cost of Life Orb for offensive Pokemon. If you remove the Life Orb, certain threats become significantly easier to handle for teams, as they no longer have the power they previously boasted.
The reason I even brought up stall in the first place was to highlight the fact that we, as a community, care little for protecting play styles. I'm aware that it has since adapted and found a small niche in the metagame; it's just a completely different animal than what it was before. My question is why should we treat HO any different than Stall in this situation?
I'd actually posit that forcing things to run Lum Berry is a relatively significant adaptation. Running Lum Berry has always come at the opportunity cost of Life Orb for offensive Pokemon. If you remove the Life Orb, certain threats become significantly easier to handle for teams, as they no longer have the power they previously boasted.
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I'm loving the discussion on Liepard. One thing to note is potential sets for Liepard when mentioning counters: because she has no hope of being threatening offensively, and no bulk or recovery to speak of, most sets will likely not be running a Choice item, LO, or Lefties. That means she can easily run Mental Herb (to sleep faster Priority Taunters like Thundurus), Focus Sash (to sleep fast or Lum-berry wielding attackers), or her own Lum Berry (to beat opposing status).
In terms of voting that's a knock against her, perhaps, but I think there are still plenty of options being raised to stopping her shenanigans. Also, I don't think she's all that easy to use well. It will be easy and tempting to lead with her and mash DV against the first target you see but it isn't always optimal, since her nonexistent bulk makes her so hard to switch in successfully. That makes her less of a hard stop to sweepers and more of a disrupter-mon: something that can harass and slow-down teams. Slowing thins down seems like an upside to me. It will take actual prediction or team selection to make her truly devastating, and those increased options are the allure to me.
In terms of voting that's a knock against her, perhaps, but I think there are still plenty of options being raised to stopping her shenanigans. Also, I don't think she's all that easy to use well. It will be easy and tempting to lead with her and mash DV against the first target you see but it isn't always optimal, since her nonexistent bulk makes her so hard to switch in successfully. That makes her less of a hard stop to sweepers and more of a disrupter-mon: something that can harass and slow-down teams. Slowing thins down seems like an upside to me. It will take actual prediction or team selection to make her truly devastating, and those increased options are the allure to me.
was away sorry for absence(not like you missed me). It'll be short and to the point:
Infernape+Prankster: i dunno did the guy do some intense research into what Ape can do with Prankster. From what i know, it would've been Godly in DPP, with suicide leads and all, but this meta isn't fit for this thing. I read in one of the posts it gets rocks, taunt, wow, and Slack Off(ye all praise the bulky Ape). It'll not be much of a push for Ape to get attention imo.
Milotic+Multiscale: i dunno if i'm the only one, but i hate milotic cos many of my randbats loses came due to it. I've no idea what milotic does in UU(it's uu right?), but it can turn into a very good wall, and we know how good a defensive water-type can be. It also has Marvel Scale, so it'll be a tough time for the opponent until he finds out what ability it is, i'm kind of unsure about it cos i love something else.
Liepard+Dark Void: hmm..........nah
Nidoking+Rock Polish: Ok it sounds a bit offhand, but it's a known real threat, specially to those who know what it does in randbats(others, think lando-i). It's speed isn't so bad that Rock Polish would seem helpless. It can go a similar route to that of Lando-I, and it won't be either bad or outclassed or overpowered, so i think i'll vote for this.
Infernape+Prankster: i dunno did the guy do some intense research into what Ape can do with Prankster. From what i know, it would've been Godly in DPP, with suicide leads and all, but this meta isn't fit for this thing. I read in one of the posts it gets rocks, taunt, wow, and Slack Off(ye all praise the bulky Ape). It'll not be much of a push for Ape to get attention imo.
Milotic+Multiscale: i dunno if i'm the only one, but i hate milotic cos many of my randbats loses came due to it. I've no idea what milotic does in UU(it's uu right?), but it can turn into a very good wall, and we know how good a defensive water-type can be. It also has Marvel Scale, so it'll be a tough time for the opponent until he finds out what ability it is, i'm kind of unsure about it cos i love something else.
Liepard+Dark Void: hmm..........nah
Nidoking+Rock Polish: Ok it sounds a bit offhand, but it's a known real threat, specially to those who know what it does in randbats(others, think lando-i). It's speed isn't so bad that Rock Polish would seem helpless. It can go a similar route to that of Lando-I, and it won't be either bad or outclassed or overpowered, so i think i'll vote for this.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
Mh didn't know milotic gets coil, it becomes really tough to handle with its special bulk, multiscale and dragon tail. It definitely gets my attention now.
Talking about liepard, i don't think stall will benefit a lot from it, it is just another option for HO that helps handling better opposing offesnive teams, but is also useful vs stall with taunt and u-turn.
Talking about liepard, i don't think stall will benefit a lot from it, it is just another option for HO that helps handling better opposing offesnive teams, but is also useful vs stall with taunt and u-turn.
The thing with DV Liepard is that it's just too easy to spam. Click Dark Void, then click U-turn, and you've got a guaranteed advantage and a healthy Liepard waiting to do it again. Even teams with Natural Cure or Heal Bell will be put at a disadvantage, as you can bring in something to set up on the Heal Bell or whatever. It's an immediate advantage with just two moves, against basically any team. Then you've still got two more moves to screw around with so that Liepard isn't totally dead weight, with lovely little moves like Encore, Taunt, Knock Off or Thunder Wave. It's not competitive; you just click Dark Void and hope the 20% miss doesn't bite you in the ass.
Really not a fan, and I hope this one doesn't get picked.
Really not a fan, and I hope this one doesn't get picked.
Prankster Infernape: I think this one would be pretty good. With Prankster Stealth Rock, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Slack Off, and Encore to abuse, Infernape could very easily cause some hell for both offensive and defensive teams alike. What sets Infernape apart from other Prankster abusers is his offensive presence, as 104 / 104 offenses isn't too shabby, and STAB attacks in Close Combat, Flare Blitz, and Overheat to bust down walls that have been crippled by his various status moves can be a true life saver for the team. I really like it.
Multiscale Milotic: At first, I thought this would be a really good Theorymon, since taking half damage is pretty awesome. However, for something that's supposed to take repeated hits, I can't see it working out very well. The thing about Multiscale is that it's supposed to be used on offensive Pokemon that need the extra bulk to take a hit only when absolutely necessary. As a defensive Pokemon, Milotic is expected to be able to repeatedly switch into attacks, but Multiscale will only help somewhat in this case, as after a single hit, it's goodbye Multiscale. This problem is more significant if hazards are on the field, which make Multiscale absolutely useless. Not a fan of this one.
Dark Void Liepard: Why didn't I see how broken this was earlier? Prankster with damn near any Sleep inducing move would be incredibly difficult to play around, and unlike Spore, there aren't any safe switches to absorb it, so this could very easily gain momentum at the start of the match. Even though it has 80 accuracy, Dark Void is just so spammable, as putting anything to sleep can easily provide a safe switch for a teammate, and using U-turn to punish the opponent for hastily switching out their crippled teammate is really a nightmare. Besides, I'm more of a dog person, so that's already a big reason there.
Rock Polish Nidoking: This is one step forward, one step back. Getting Rock Polish makes it hard to revenge kill Nidoking without priority, and can make it fairly easy to sweep team thanks to his excellent coverage. Sadly, he has to give up a coverage move to make this possible. You need Ice Beam for Landorus-T and Gliscor and Flamethrower for Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, so you'll be blocked by one of those parties when lacking the appropriate coverage move. Nidoking also faces competition from Rock Polish Landorus, which has better stats overall, as well as having Knock Off to go mixed. I guess I'm neutral on this one.
Multiscale Milotic: At first, I thought this would be a really good Theorymon, since taking half damage is pretty awesome. However, for something that's supposed to take repeated hits, I can't see it working out very well. The thing about Multiscale is that it's supposed to be used on offensive Pokemon that need the extra bulk to take a hit only when absolutely necessary. As a defensive Pokemon, Milotic is expected to be able to repeatedly switch into attacks, but Multiscale will only help somewhat in this case, as after a single hit, it's goodbye Multiscale. This problem is more significant if hazards are on the field, which make Multiscale absolutely useless. Not a fan of this one.
Dark Void Liepard: Why didn't I see how broken this was earlier? Prankster with damn near any Sleep inducing move would be incredibly difficult to play around, and unlike Spore, there aren't any safe switches to absorb it, so this could very easily gain momentum at the start of the match. Even though it has 80 accuracy, Dark Void is just so spammable, as putting anything to sleep can easily provide a safe switch for a teammate, and using U-turn to punish the opponent for hastily switching out their crippled teammate is really a nightmare. Besides, I'm more of a dog person, so that's already a big reason there.
Rock Polish Nidoking: This is one step forward, one step back. Getting Rock Polish makes it hard to revenge kill Nidoking without priority, and can make it fairly easy to sweep team thanks to his excellent coverage. Sadly, he has to give up a coverage move to make this possible. You need Ice Beam for Landorus-T and Gliscor and Flamethrower for Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, so you'll be blocked by one of those parties when lacking the appropriate coverage move. Nidoking also faces competition from Rock Polish Landorus, which has better stats overall, as well as having Knock Off to go mixed. I guess I'm neutral on this one.
A few things to consider with Multiscale on Milotic compared to a Bulky Attacker like Dragonnite:
- Milotic's typing leaves it with fewer resists but also fewer weaknesses, and no crippling x4 weaknesses.
- Milotic isn't weak to Rocks.
- Milotic has better special bulk than Dragonite.
- Milotic can fish for Burns much more easily with Scald, allowing her to force switches and artificially increase her bulk.
- Milotic has access to a defense-boosting move in Coil, which also helps in the Bulk department.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
Well it doesn't fit liepard's flavor perfectly, but at least it doesn't contradict it
None of the Pokedex entires talk about anything sleep-related or imply dark powers, plus it doesn't get any sleep-inducing moves (it does get Dream Eater but so does a lot of weird stuff). It just seems like it was added for the potential broken factor of priority sleep, and should probably just be removed from the slate.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
It is the same thing as liepard, whimsi doesn't have anything to do with mushrooms and things that actually have spores, it just has the same type.
Not mentioning anything in the Pokedex and contradicting flavor are two entirely different things. I don't find it unreasonable that Liepard could have dark powers. Spore Whimsicott would be an excellent submission. Perhaps if you had said something earlier on, we would have slated that instead. We did not slate ANYTHING because it had the potential to be broken; our primary goal when we slate things is to introduce something we feel contributes to the metagame that generates healthy discussion, which is EXACTLY what Dark Void Liepard did. Spore Whimsicott would also be an interesting thought. Perhaps we can slate it at a later time.
The true fact of the matter is that we try our hardest to slate as many things that people submit to us. Often times, we are under a time crunch to get a slate full, and in that hurry, we don't have time to come up with suitable alternatives. If you are unhappy with the things we slate, please submit better things yourself. It's like voting for your government, people. If you are unhappy, then do something about it. Complaining that you don't like things isn't going to fix everything.
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