Entei + Defiant
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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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Woo! Entei started off with little votes but it's making a comeback! Im suprised Florges is getting all this support.
Well hello there Theorymon Masters; if I'm posting, you know one of two things is happening:
1.) I'm beating some sort of horse dead
2.) I'm posting the results of the voting/new slate
We had an excellent voter turnout this slate, despite only having 3 things to vote for. Now…without further ado, I give you your winner!
+ Defiant
The votes were:
Congratulations to Ohioisonfire for winning this slate; we hope to hear more from you in the future!
For our next slate, we have…
+ Prankster (credit goes to Albacore )
+ Multiscale
+ Dark Void (credit goes to hawk1113 )
+ Rock Polish
Looking forward to the great things y'all have to say about these theorymons. Let's get to it!
Discuss.
2.) I'm posting the results of the voting/new slate
We had an excellent voter turnout this slate, despite only having 3 things to vote for. Now…without further ado, I give you your winner!
The votes were:
- Entei + Defiant: 13
- Florges + Regenerator: 9
- Cobalion + Intimidate: 5
Congratulations to Ohioisonfire for winning this slate; we hope to hear more from you in the future!
For our next slate, we have…
Looking forward to the great things y'all have to say about these theorymons. Let's get to it!
Discuss.
I like the most of the slate and I'll comment on the other noms later, but Prankster Liepard with Dark Void? How is that not totally broken? First, unlike Spore Grass types can't absorb it. Second, Liepard has good enough base speed that every priority user not named Dragonite or Talonflame gets put to sleep. So Mega Pinsir, Scizor or Azu can't even pick it off. The only thing that DV Liepard does is centralize the entire tier around Insomnia/Vitals Spirit mons, the three Mega Magic Bouncers, Whimscott, Thundy-I, and other fast Taunters, and forces everything to run Lum Berries and Magic Coat. I'm trying to figure out the argument for getting this approved really. It turns the whole match into 6 on 5 really easily, and there are only a few overly specific stops out there to it.
Prankster Infernape: The big plus Infernape has with Prankster is WoW, Stealth Rocks, Taunt, and Slack Off. That'll be really helpful. While Fire is an interesting defensive type (five resists to three weaknesses, but those three are pretty crucial), the Fighting secondary type will be helpful, primarily to make Stealth Rock damage neutral. Sadly, a weakness to Psychic and Flying are added, and the resistance to Fairy is lost. Still pretty good.
Milotic + Multiscale: Really good, but probably not too terribly broken. The problem with Multiscale is you lose it if Stealth Rocks are up. However, Milotic is pretty bulky, so if you switch into something you wall, take <50%, then Recover, you can mess with something that otherwise beats you thanks to "resisting" its attack (or at least taking neutral damage). Also, as if we needed another bulky water...
Liepard + Dark Void: The SwagPlay cat is back with a vengeance, determined to be the most obnoxious thing to ever grace OU with its presence. Prankster Dark Void gives you a better panic button against sweepers than Thundurus. Against Physical sweepers, it can Dark Void then Foul Play or Sub or whatever. Evil.
Nidoking + Rock Polish: Rock Polish likely would have been better on Nidoqueen thanks to her better bulk, but whatever. Nidoking isn't exactly "slow", but base 85 does leave it outsped by a lot of things. Rock Polish would completely fix this. Landorus does completely outclass it in stats, but Nidoking gets BoltBeam, Flamethrower, as well as Sludge Wave and FocusMiss Blast. Great coverage.
Overall, a solid slate. I suspect that most people will despise Dark Void Liepard, but none of these are necessarily bad.
Milotic + Multiscale: Really good, but probably not too terribly broken. The problem with Multiscale is you lose it if Stealth Rocks are up. However, Milotic is pretty bulky, so if you switch into something you wall, take <50%, then Recover, you can mess with something that otherwise beats you thanks to "resisting" its attack (or at least taking neutral damage). Also, as if we needed another bulky water...
Liepard + Dark Void: The SwagPlay cat is back with a vengeance, determined to be the most obnoxious thing to ever grace OU with its presence. Prankster Dark Void gives you a better panic button against sweepers than Thundurus. Against Physical sweepers, it can Dark Void then Foul Play or Sub or whatever. Evil.
Nidoking + Rock Polish: Rock Polish likely would have been better on Nidoqueen thanks to her better bulk, but whatever. Nidoking isn't exactly "slow", but base 85 does leave it outsped by a lot of things. Rock Polish would completely fix this. Landorus does completely outclass it in stats, but Nidoking gets BoltBeam, Flamethrower, as well as Sludge Wave and Focus
Overall, a solid slate. I suspect that most people will despise Dark Void Liepard, but none of these are necessarily bad.
Not to sound like an ass, but Dark Void Liepard is absolutely NOT broken. So what--you can't just sweep a team from the get-go. Cry about it. I wanted to slate that because I really want to see the metagame tamed a bit. It's so blatantly offensive--we could use something to disrupt the fast-paced flow of games.
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Interesting...
Infernape + Prankster: So on one hand you have a more consistent lead Infernape who can utilize Stealth Rocks easily ignoring the speed tier. On the other hand you have a +1 Taunt to slow down mons such as Klefki and have the ability to ignore a state of paralysis with this ability to a degree. I guess you get a fast set up as well but Idk exactly how this would be effective in a singles metagame. +1 Slack Off is pretty hilarious as well so it'll make it more viable in handling stall while having +1 Will-O-Wisp against offense.
Milotic + Multiscale: Simply hell lol. Already has great bulk, reliable recovery, decent defensive typing, and solid utility. This would be a staple on stall for sure and we all know that stall is the most enjoyable playstyle ever :]. In all seriousness though Milotics speed is what generally holds it back and this will mostly threaten unprepared stall teams more than anything. Liking this one.
Liepard + Dark Void: The amount of set up opportunities this one can provide is pretty great. The only real down side is all of the traits it was already hindered by, such as poor bulk, terrible offensive movepool, deadweight against M-Sableye and M-Diancie, and so forth. I would see this more on hyper offense than anything as those will be the teams you'll want this thing on. Also as ;lmlm said, it's not really broken as much as it looks like on paper. Anyone who has played AAA and has utilized similar mons such as Dark Void Sableye can tell you this. It would be more prepped for but sleep clause and flaws keep it in check.
Edit: Celticpride I meant STABmons here.
Nidoking + Rock Polish
I think this one is a really underrated threat that would seem anti-meta to me. It can reliably run a neutral speed nature, with life orb + coverage moves on both special and physical sets. It does have a good amount of weaknesses though and getting an opportunity to set up can be hard for this reason as well as some others like average defenses.
Infernape + Prankster: So on one hand you have a more consistent lead Infernape who can utilize Stealth Rocks easily ignoring the speed tier. On the other hand you have a +1 Taunt to slow down mons such as Klefki and have the ability to ignore a state of paralysis with this ability to a degree. I guess you get a fast set up as well but Idk exactly how this would be effective in a singles metagame. +1 Slack Off is pretty hilarious as well so it'll make it more viable in handling stall while having +1 Will-O-Wisp against offense.
Milotic + Multiscale: Simply hell lol. Already has great bulk, reliable recovery, decent defensive typing, and solid utility. This would be a staple on stall for sure and we all know that stall is the most enjoyable playstyle ever :]. In all seriousness though Milotics speed is what generally holds it back and this will mostly threaten unprepared stall teams more than anything. Liking this one.
Liepard + Dark Void: The amount of set up opportunities this one can provide is pretty great. The only real down side is all of the traits it was already hindered by, such as poor bulk, terrible offensive movepool, deadweight against M-Sableye and M-Diancie, and so forth. I would see this more on hyper offense than anything as those will be the teams you'll want this thing on. Also as ;lmlm said, it's not really broken as much as it looks like on paper. Anyone who has played AAA and has utilized similar mons such as Dark Void Sableye can tell you this. It would be more prepped for but sleep clause and flaws keep it in check.
Edit: Celticpride I meant STABmons here.
Nidoking + Rock Polish
I think this one is a really underrated threat that would seem anti-meta to me. It can reliably run a neutral speed nature, with life orb + coverage moves on both special and physical sets. It does have a good amount of weaknesses though and getting an opportunity to set up can be hard for this reason as well as some others like average defenses.
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The damn fire thing won. Oh well.
Well anyway, I don't quite care for the monkey (we seem to have a habit of slating mons I don't like llately....Could Salamence be next? xD) and I understand the prankster bit, but it will be interesting to theorize how it could separate itself from the other mons in being an offensive mon with emergency wisp (if only wisp became 100% accurate for fire types like it does Poison mons). An interesting idea, but hate the monkey all the same.
Wait, whats this? More prankster shenanigans? I really don't know how Liepard would be running around with Dark Void, but at least its only 80% to hit.
Milotic always seems to be a mon slated for theorymon and it isn't hard to see why. Popular, sorta wished it got fairy typing in the transiton to XY (and got a fairy type added earlier in the last thread) and wishing it had slightly more bulk. Well now it can parade around with some interesting bulk choices and while it helps it take a beating more reliably, I think it should do fine in positioning itself as a more defensive multiscale user than Dragonite in some regards.
Now Nidoking is my favorite Ground type easily, and normally I like giving my favorites buffs but idk, I understand his buff fine but I just don't really want to throw my support to it cause of it being my favorite. God knows I've used him far to much and know his crooks and crannies but idk, its an interesting dilemma I find myself in directly wanting to buff a mon that I use so frequently. Its perplexing to me and makes me question to do it at all for whatever reason so i'll stop here before I babble on any further.
Well anyway, I don't quite care for the monkey (we seem to have a habit of slating mons I don't like llately....Could Salamence be next? xD) and I understand the prankster bit, but it will be interesting to theorize how it could separate itself from the other mons in being an offensive mon with emergency wisp (if only wisp became 100% accurate for fire types like it does Poison mons). An interesting idea, but hate the monkey all the same.
Wait, whats this? More prankster shenanigans? I really don't know how Liepard would be running around with Dark Void, but at least its only 80% to hit.
Milotic always seems to be a mon slated for theorymon and it isn't hard to see why. Popular, sorta wished it got fairy typing in the transiton to XY (and got a fairy type added earlier in the last thread) and wishing it had slightly more bulk. Well now it can parade around with some interesting bulk choices and while it helps it take a beating more reliably, I think it should do fine in positioning itself as a more defensive multiscale user than Dragonite in some regards.
Now Nidoking is my favorite Ground type easily, and normally I like giving my favorites buffs but idk, I understand his buff fine but I just don't really want to throw my support to it cause of it being my favorite. God knows I've used him far to much and know his crooks and crannies but idk, its an interesting dilemma I find myself in directly wanting to buff a mon that I use so frequently. Its perplexing to me and makes me question to do it at all for whatever reason so i'll stop here before I babble on any further.
It's not that I want to sweep right from the get go. It's worse because Prankster Dark Void rewards sloppy play and it's a get out of jail free card. Thundy-I is suspectable for similar reasons, but this is arguably worse. If you happen to slip up and allow a window for something to set-up, Liepard allows you a scott-free do over with few to no drawbacks. That just sounds cancerous to me, and I don't even think it would accomplish the goal of curbing offensive. I think it takes away from the best player winning, which makes it broken to me. The goal in a balanced meta is to give the better player the better chance at winning and this takes away from that.
Also, AM Smeargle+Prankster is banned in AAA. I assume you meant that instead of DV Sableye.
Also, AM Smeargle+Prankster is banned in AAA. I assume you meant that instead of DV Sableye.
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It's not broken because you have to use liepard... Anyway, you're acting like putting 1 pokemon to sleep=op, when really it just gives you an advantage.
Infernape + Prankster: The idea behind this was that for such an offensive Pokemon, Infernape has a surprisingly large support movepool. Obviously, it can easily run a set of Wisp/Taunt/Slack Off/STAB Sableye-style, but with higher defenses and a different typing. Immunity to WoW is also pretty nice too. But unlike Sableye, it actually has a lot more options. I think its main use would be as a suicide lead on HO teams. Priority SR is a godsend, and it can run a set of Rocks/Taunt/Endeavor/Mach Punch which guarantees hazards advantage against all other suicide leads but Mamoswine and Shuckle. Heck, you can even invest fully in bulk since you don't need the speed at all, though since you have Endeavor I doubt that would be a good idea. I honestly don't know what spread it would run, given that you don't need speed and you don't need bulk, but I guess max speed lets you tie with opposing lend napes lol. You can also run Priority Encore to act as some sort of mini-Thundurus sweep stopper, Priority Torment to be generally annoying, Priority Sunny Day, Priority SubToxic, or if you want to be really creative, Priority RestTalk+Calm Mind(though Prio CM+Slack Off+Flamethrower+Taunt to stop phazing+status may be a legit set). This thing has a lot of options to abuse Prankster, so this would be interesting.
Milotic + Multiscale: I don't think this would be too ridiculous tbh. I mean it still can't stall out things that can 2HKO it, though it does have a higher chance to beat it with toxic/scald, few physical attackers were able to beat it anyway, and those who were (sub DD MGyara, MHera) can still beat it. Multiscale isn't really changing this thing's checks and counters list. However, it will make this thing wall all the stuff is walls way more convincingly. It also makes it less pressured to spam recover whenever it forces something out. For instance, say it switches into Garchomp from full. Multiscale or not, Garchomp is switching out, however, if it does have Multiscale, it can actually switch into Garchomp a second time without having to recover up, since it will have taken half as much from Earthquake the first time, which means it can afford to Toxic on the switch instead of Recovering. I don't think this is breaking the metagame or anything, but it looks like a pretty solid buff for an otherwise overshadowed Pokemon
Liepard + Dark Void: lol this is dumb
Nidoking + Rock Polish This sounds really neat, the problem I have with this is that Landorus-I exists and is kinda better for the most part? Nidoking does have one thing going for it though, and that i its far better special movepool. Notably, it can get past usual checks to Landorus-I, basically Flying types, with Ice Beam. The standard set will probably be Rock Polish/Earth Power/Sludge Wave/Ice Beam. It will be solid no doubt, but because competition from the faster, more powerful, ground-immune Landorus-I, I don't think it'll be used too much unfortunately.
Milotic + Multiscale: I don't think this would be too ridiculous tbh. I mean it still can't stall out things that can 2HKO it, though it does have a higher chance to beat it with toxic/scald, few physical attackers were able to beat it anyway, and those who were (sub DD MGyara, MHera) can still beat it. Multiscale isn't really changing this thing's checks and counters list. However, it will make this thing wall all the stuff is walls way more convincingly. It also makes it less pressured to spam recover whenever it forces something out. For instance, say it switches into Garchomp from full. Multiscale or not, Garchomp is switching out, however, if it does have Multiscale, it can actually switch into Garchomp a second time without having to recover up, since it will have taken half as much from Earthquake the first time, which means it can afford to Toxic on the switch instead of Recovering. I don't think this is breaking the metagame or anything, but it looks like a pretty solid buff for an otherwise overshadowed Pokemon
Liepard + Dark Void: lol this is dumb
Nidoking + Rock Polish This sounds really neat, the problem I have with this is that Landorus-I exists and is kinda better for the most part? Nidoking does have one thing going for it though, and that i its far better special movepool. Notably, it can get past usual checks to Landorus-I, basically Flying types, with Ice Beam. The standard set will probably be Rock Polish/Earth Power/Sludge Wave/Ice Beam. It will be solid no doubt, but because competition from the faster, more powerful, ground-immune Landorus-I, I don't think it'll be used too much unfortunately.
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Yes! Lord entei did it!
I'm from my phone so i'll give quick opinions on the new slate.
Dark void Liepard: pls no
Multiscale milotic: this buff seems nice because it allows milotic to toxic stall slower things or just force switches because pokemon that would normally dent it don't want to be hit by scald/Ice beam. However it is not that strong imo, as a defensive pokemon it will switch-in often and sr break its multiscale, plus it is prone to status. Imo multiscale is a good ability for offensive pokemon, so it Should run some sort of boosting set (i don't even know if it gets a boosting move) to work at his best, But it doesn't convince me.
Rock polish nidoking: really nice as nidoking forces many switches with its good coverage, but it doesn't solve one of the main problems: competition with lando i. Lando gets rock polish as well, is stronger and Faster, it sets up more easily. Actually i didn't even know nidoking doesn't get rock polish, lando is just better.
Prankster Infernape: i like playing offensively, so i really like this. Basically grants rocks up and prevent opponent from setting like 100% of the times, it can also burn things or cripple one with endeavor (and kill it with mach punch). My favorite here i think.
I'm from my phone so i'll give quick opinions on the new slate.
Dark void Liepard: pls no
Multiscale milotic: this buff seems nice because it allows milotic to toxic stall slower things or just force switches because pokemon that would normally dent it don't want to be hit by scald/Ice beam. However it is not that strong imo, as a defensive pokemon it will switch-in often and sr break its multiscale, plus it is prone to status. Imo multiscale is a good ability for offensive pokemon, so it Should run some sort of boosting set (i don't even know if it gets a boosting move) to work at his best, But it doesn't convince me.
Rock polish nidoking: really nice as nidoking forces many switches with its good coverage, but it doesn't solve one of the main problems: competition with lando i. Lando gets rock polish as well, is stronger and Faster, it sets up more easily. Actually i didn't even know nidoking doesn't get rock polish, lando is just better.
Prankster Infernape: i like playing offensively, so i really like this. Basically grants rocks up and prevent opponent from setting like 100% of the times, it can also burn things or cripple one with endeavor (and kill it with mach punch). My favorite here i think.
Rock Polish Nidoking sounds... nice, and honestly I'm surprised that it doesn't actually have it in the games. Problem is... yeah, I don't see what it would have over Lando.
Prankster Infernape... eh? I'm not seeing much potential from the get-go.
walks away slowly from prankster dark void
Multiscale Milotic definitely sounds the most enticing to me. For everyone sad it didn't get a Mega, this finally gives it some sort of niche over like every other water type. Especially since it should have an easier time setting up Coils now, which it got in ORAS.
Prankster Infernape... eh? I'm not seeing much potential from the get-go.
walks away slowly from prankster dark void
Multiscale Milotic definitely sounds the most enticing to me. For everyone sad it didn't get a Mega, this finally gives it some sort of niche over like every other water type. Especially since it should have an easier time setting up Coils now, which it got in ORAS.
Prankster Infernape prankster will-o-wisp, no
Multiscale Milotic I like, a great defensive that requires preparation for in the form of rocks or something if you have any intention of sweeping, but the preparation isn't too hard to bring.
Dark Void Liepard no pranksters, I thought I made that clear
Rock Polish Nidoking is an idea, still has landorus problems, but I'll give it enough of a chance to run calcs
Multiscale Milotic I like, a great defensive that requires preparation for in the form of rocks or something if you have any intention of sweeping, but the preparation isn't too hard to bring.
Dark Void Liepard no pranksters, I thought I made that clear
Rock Polish Nidoking is an idea, still has landorus problems, but I'll give it enough of a chance to run calcs
Prankster Infernape- His move pool says yes, but his stats say no. 77/71/71 defensive stats are just bad. While it's 104/104/108 offensive stats are great for wall breaking. It has the move pool to make it hard to switch into its coverage moves. GF just made this the generic wallbreaker spread, and trying to make it a utility mon seems silly to me.
Multiscale Milotic- can someone explain the appeal of this? On dragonite it makes sense since it lets it set up easier, or activate a weakness policy, but marvel scale just seems better as a more permanent defense buff, since it's special defense is already good. Someone just has to explain this to me the charm cause I don't see it.
Dark void Liepard- just a fast prankster with bad defensive typing and stats. Dark void is a one trick that only works once, then it's kinda dead weight since its stats are just bad. I'd still much rather use prankster with better stats like thunderus, or a better defensive typed one like klefki. Plus thunder wave just seems better status to spread as it's more trollish and can be spread more.
Rock polish Nidoking- I like this one, mostly because it came at the right time. Sure Landorus I outclasses it, but with the new ORAS meta, landorus-T is very good, while landorus-I really got hurt from the speed creep and was overall on the decline anyway, so using landorus-I elimimates landorus-t being an option. This also lets Nidoking run a life orb and modest nature to be a better wall breaker, as it has wonderful coverage, some moves Include ice beam, sludge wave, earth power, focus blast, thunderbolt, fire blast. This makes it both a great late game cleaner and wall breaker. This is a perfect example of a mon getting the right buff at the right time.
Multiscale Milotic- can someone explain the appeal of this? On dragonite it makes sense since it lets it set up easier, or activate a weakness policy, but marvel scale just seems better as a more permanent defense buff, since it's special defense is already good. Someone just has to explain this to me the charm cause I don't see it.
Dark void Liepard- just a fast prankster with bad defensive typing and stats. Dark void is a one trick that only works once, then it's kinda dead weight since its stats are just bad. I'd still much rather use prankster with better stats like thunderus, or a better defensive typed one like klefki. Plus thunder wave just seems better status to spread as it's more trollish and can be spread more.
Rock polish Nidoking- I like this one, mostly because it came at the right time. Sure Landorus I outclasses it, but with the new ORAS meta, landorus-T is very good, while landorus-I really got hurt from the speed creep and was overall on the decline anyway, so using landorus-I elimimates landorus-t being an option. This also lets Nidoking run a life orb and modest nature to be a better wall breaker, as it has wonderful coverage, some moves Include ice beam, sludge wave, earth power, focus blast, thunderbolt, fire blast. This makes it both a great late game cleaner and wall breaker. This is a perfect example of a mon getting the right buff at the right time.
Interesting slate; lots of more defensive or disruptive mons which is cool.
Infernape + Prankster: I'm drawn to the Theorymon that does the most new stuff, and Infernape wins that contest. With Stealth Rock, Slack Off, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt and Encore alongside standard moves like Toxic and Substitute and literally every set-up move under the sun, Infernape has a lot of new tricks up its sleeve with its newfound priority. The only drawbacks are that it doesn't seem to have any trick that Sableye doesn't already and Prankster is sort of obnoxious, but Infernape's very different typing and excellent attacking stats give it a different potential niche than Sableye, even if their Prankster options are basically the same. A great Pokemon and a strong contender for my vote.
Milotic + Multiscale: This does less stuff than Infernape, since it basically just makes its current set of Recover/Scald/Ice Beam/Dragon Tail or Haze way, way better, but it might actually be my favorite. I'm a huge fan of Milotic and this is a theorymon I'd thought of myself a few times. Its typing would make it a much better abuser of the move than D-nite, and also a very different, more defensive one. Also, a physical Coil set with D-tail, Waterfall, and Recover also sounds plausible and awesome. She needs Rocks removal, but overall it's an exciting and interesting 'mon.
Liepard + Dark Void: I can see the way the wind is blowing, but I'm going to stick up for my submission. Sleep is obnoxious and mean to be sure, but it's also a part of the metagame, one that Sleep Clause prevents from being totally abusive. Having another viable Sleep inducer (especially one with amazing speed and no reliance on Spore which is easily avoided) would be interesting and I think help chill the meta out a little bit. Prankster is an awesome ability, and it's a shame to see Liepard have no real niche for it that Thundurus, Klefki, Sableye and (in our universe) Froslass don't already have covered. Dark Void would finally put this cool cat on the map. It's far from broken, because in addition to the limits imposed on it by Sleep Clause, Liepard is still kind of a dead weight 'mon. She's got a nice support move pool and U-turn for momentum, but her nonexistent bulk means that a stiff breeze can KO her (nevermind any sort of priority) and while her attacking move pool is awesome, her stats aren't and even at +4 via Nasty Plot she's painfully easy to wall and kill. But she would shake things up and cause some intriguing decisions on the part of both players.
Again, I can see the intense horror here, but I'd ask folks to think about this in terms of how it can affect the meta and what the value of insta-sleep is when considering this submission, instead of focusing on how it would feel to play against. Is it worth basically making your team 5-6 to start in exchange for an 80% to take a key target out of commission for a few turns? How can one best capitalize on that momentum, and gain that advantage without sacrificing all of their own momentum? As an opponent to it, how do you react and "take the hit" from it, assuming you don't have a hard counter? What kind of changes does its presence on an opposing team have for your choice of lead? I think the Pokemon has a lot of interesting discussion in it, even if it you ultimately don't want to give it your vote.
Rock Polish + Nidoking: This is a stacked slate with a lot of interesting Pokemon and to me this one is bringing up the rear. To answer the question, how is it different than Lando?: There are a few big things -
Infernape + Prankster: I'm drawn to the Theorymon that does the most new stuff, and Infernape wins that contest. With Stealth Rock, Slack Off, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt and Encore alongside standard moves like Toxic and Substitute and literally every set-up move under the sun, Infernape has a lot of new tricks up its sleeve with its newfound priority. The only drawbacks are that it doesn't seem to have any trick that Sableye doesn't already and Prankster is sort of obnoxious, but Infernape's very different typing and excellent attacking stats give it a different potential niche than Sableye, even if their Prankster options are basically the same. A great Pokemon and a strong contender for my vote.
Milotic + Multiscale: This does less stuff than Infernape, since it basically just makes its current set of Recover/Scald/Ice Beam/Dragon Tail or Haze way, way better, but it might actually be my favorite. I'm a huge fan of Milotic and this is a theorymon I'd thought of myself a few times. Its typing would make it a much better abuser of the move than D-nite, and also a very different, more defensive one. Also, a physical Coil set with D-tail, Waterfall, and Recover also sounds plausible and awesome. She needs Rocks removal, but overall it's an exciting and interesting 'mon.
Liepard + Dark Void: I can see the way the wind is blowing, but I'm going to stick up for my submission. Sleep is obnoxious and mean to be sure, but it's also a part of the metagame, one that Sleep Clause prevents from being totally abusive. Having another viable Sleep inducer (especially one with amazing speed and no reliance on Spore which is easily avoided) would be interesting and I think help chill the meta out a little bit. Prankster is an awesome ability, and it's a shame to see Liepard have no real niche for it that Thundurus, Klefki, Sableye and (in our universe) Froslass don't already have covered. Dark Void would finally put this cool cat on the map. It's far from broken, because in addition to the limits imposed on it by Sleep Clause, Liepard is still kind of a dead weight 'mon. She's got a nice support move pool and U-turn for momentum, but her nonexistent bulk means that a stiff breeze can KO her (nevermind any sort of priority) and while her attacking move pool is awesome, her stats aren't and even at +4 via Nasty Plot she's painfully easy to wall and kill. But she would shake things up and cause some intriguing decisions on the part of both players.
Again, I can see the intense horror here, but I'd ask folks to think about this in terms of how it can affect the meta and what the value of insta-sleep is when considering this submission, instead of focusing on how it would feel to play against. Is it worth basically making your team 5-6 to start in exchange for an 80% to take a key target out of commission for a few turns? How can one best capitalize on that momentum, and gain that advantage without sacrificing all of their own momentum? As an opponent to it, how do you react and "take the hit" from it, assuming you don't have a hard counter? What kind of changes does its presence on an opposing team have for your choice of lead? I think the Pokemon has a lot of interesting discussion in it, even if it you ultimately don't want to give it your vote.
Rock Polish + Nidoking: This is a stacked slate with a lot of interesting Pokemon and to me this one is bringing up the rear. To answer the question, how is it different than Lando?: There are a few big things -
- Different typing: Poison/Ground has more weaknesses but also one more resist (a key Fairy resist), and the King doesn't have any crippling x4 Weaknesses that any sucker with a Hidden Power can prey on. The different resists are nice too: the Rock resist is most welcome.
- STAB Sheer Force Life Orb Sludge Wave + Fairy resist = kill 'da fairies!
- A literally insane move pool with every kind of coverage known to man or Mon. Fire, Dragon, Water, Electric, Ice, Fighting, Bug, and Ghost, on both the physical and special sides.
Just to remind everyone who is complaining that Milotic doesn't have any way of setting up: Milotic gets Coil from the ORAS move tutors. It's no Geomancy or Quiver Dance, but combined with Dragon Tail it can make for a pretty serious defensive beast.
Anyhow, expanded thoughts:
Infernape + Prankster: OK, I kind of like this one. Infernape's days as an anti-lead are long over, especially now that there are a wide variety of threats that outspeed him. Prankster Taunt and Stealth Rock make the difference, though. Infernape would be the ONLY user of Prankster rocks in the game - and that's really pretty cool. On Hyper Offensive teams, having what more or less amounts to guaranteed Rocks up (barring Magic Bounce) is a pretty big deal. This is probably my second favorite of the bunch.
Milotic + Multiscale: This one is my favorite, because it makes Milotic a serious tank. With Coil to boost her defenses and Dragon Tail to phaze and deal damage, Milotic can boost up, Recover to regain Multiscale, and be hugely difficult to break. It would essentially make her a better Zygarde, and one that might actually be usable in OU. I like Prankster Infernape, but this is pretty darned cool, and probably my favorite.
Liepard + Dark Void: I have no desire to ever see priority sleep in the game, especially from a fairly accurate and no-immunity source like Dark Void. This is stupid. Please don't vote for it.
Nidoking + Rock Polish: If this was UU I'd be all over this one, but in OU it's just outclassed by Landorus. STAB Sludge Wave is nice and all, but Lando's better initial Speed tier and significantly higher Special Attack means I have trouble really seeing situations where I'd use this instead.
Anyhow, expanded thoughts:
Infernape + Prankster: OK, I kind of like this one. Infernape's days as an anti-lead are long over, especially now that there are a wide variety of threats that outspeed him. Prankster Taunt and Stealth Rock make the difference, though. Infernape would be the ONLY user of Prankster rocks in the game - and that's really pretty cool. On Hyper Offensive teams, having what more or less amounts to guaranteed Rocks up (barring Magic Bounce) is a pretty big deal. This is probably my second favorite of the bunch.
Milotic + Multiscale: This one is my favorite, because it makes Milotic a serious tank. With Coil to boost her defenses and Dragon Tail to phaze and deal damage, Milotic can boost up, Recover to regain Multiscale, and be hugely difficult to break. It would essentially make her a better Zygarde, and one that might actually be usable in OU. I like Prankster Infernape, but this is pretty darned cool, and probably my favorite.
Liepard + Dark Void: I have no desire to ever see priority sleep in the game, especially from a fairly accurate and no-immunity source like Dark Void. This is stupid. Please don't vote for it.
Nidoking + Rock Polish: If this was UU I'd be all over this one, but in OU it's just outclassed by Landorus. STAB Sludge Wave is nice and all, but Lando's better initial Speed tier and significantly higher Special Attack means I have trouble really seeing situations where I'd use this instead.
There are quite a few reasons. For instance, it makes for a good replacement Lando-I if you're using Lando-T; similar to how people run Scarf Raikou if they're running a Mega other than Manectric. It's definitely not as good as Lando-I, just as Raikou isn't as good as Mega Man.
In addition, as noted above, it gets a better movepool - gems such as Fire Blast and Surf, not to mention it gets Ice Beam rather than having to rely on HP Ice. I get your point tho.
Okay so I want to talk about why my vote is almost certainly going to go to Liepard…
To everyone saying that it will centralize the metagame, you are most likely right. Liepard with Dark Void would very likely find a place on a LOT of teams simply because of Prankster sleep alongside Taunt and Thunder Wave. Hell--it even gets U-Turn to make itself hard to hit. Purely offensive teams would likely have an unfavorable matchup against this thing due to its fast-paced disruptive abilities. Liepard could very easily become a centralizing factor in the metagame.
However…I think it could have an interesting and reasonably healthy effect on the metagame.
I'd like to address one major issue before I continue. A lot of people think that once a Pokemon is put to sleep or paralyzed, it is useless for the remainder of the game. This is entirely false. The only thing rendering a Pokemon useless for the remainder of the game is KO'ing it. Last I checked, sleep and paralysis do not KO a Pokemon. They certainly make a Pokemon LESS useful, but they are still valuable to a varying extent (I say varying because defensive Pokemon care significantly less than offensive Pokemon). If your team is stopped short by status effects, that is not the status effects being broken; it is your team being poorly equipped to handle status effects. Last I checked, Stall and Balance don't care about status effects.
I do not have any problem WHATSOEVER as to the effects that would likely follow this centralization. I believe that if we had Dark Void Liepard in our metagame, we would see a significant change in team building. We would likely see successful offensive teams each carry some sort of cleric. Liepard's presence would simply necessitate Heal Bell/Aromatherapy on teams. Obviously Liepard would increase the importance of the use of powerful priority moves, so we would probably see more Talonflame and Dragonite. I think that forcing offensive teams to use a cleric is a great step for the metagame. Defensive and Balanced play styles would skyrocket in viability, as offensive teams would not be able to cover as much with less coverage. Additionally, this could actually add a cool component to offensive teams. They would now have a component of longevity--something that Stall and Balance teams have. Offensive players would now be able to mitigate the amount of damage their team sustains overall. I think that would be a really cool metagame to play in.
All in all, I think that the metagame effects of Liepard would be really cool; I hope that maybe some of you were previously bandwagoning, and now my post enlightens you to the fact that Prankster sleep is a really cool thing. It's the kind of thing this thread is all about: stirring up controversy so that we can better understand how our metagame works and the things that cause major shifts in it.
To everyone saying that it will centralize the metagame, you are most likely right. Liepard with Dark Void would very likely find a place on a LOT of teams simply because of Prankster sleep alongside Taunt and Thunder Wave. Hell--it even gets U-Turn to make itself hard to hit. Purely offensive teams would likely have an unfavorable matchup against this thing due to its fast-paced disruptive abilities. Liepard could very easily become a centralizing factor in the metagame.
However…I think it could have an interesting and reasonably healthy effect on the metagame.
I'd like to address one major issue before I continue. A lot of people think that once a Pokemon is put to sleep or paralyzed, it is useless for the remainder of the game. This is entirely false. The only thing rendering a Pokemon useless for the remainder of the game is KO'ing it. Last I checked, sleep and paralysis do not KO a Pokemon. They certainly make a Pokemon LESS useful, but they are still valuable to a varying extent (I say varying because defensive Pokemon care significantly less than offensive Pokemon). If your team is stopped short by status effects, that is not the status effects being broken; it is your team being poorly equipped to handle status effects. Last I checked, Stall and Balance don't care about status effects.
I do not have any problem WHATSOEVER as to the effects that would likely follow this centralization. I believe that if we had Dark Void Liepard in our metagame, we would see a significant change in team building. We would likely see successful offensive teams each carry some sort of cleric. Liepard's presence would simply necessitate Heal Bell/Aromatherapy on teams. Obviously Liepard would increase the importance of the use of powerful priority moves, so we would probably see more Talonflame and Dragonite. I think that forcing offensive teams to use a cleric is a great step for the metagame. Defensive and Balanced play styles would skyrocket in viability, as offensive teams would not be able to cover as much with less coverage. Additionally, this could actually add a cool component to offensive teams. They would now have a component of longevity--something that Stall and Balance teams have. Offensive players would now be able to mitigate the amount of damage their team sustains overall. I think that would be a really cool metagame to play in.
All in all, I think that the metagame effects of Liepard would be really cool; I hope that maybe some of you were previously bandwagoning, and now my post enlightens you to the fact that Prankster sleep is a really cool thing. It's the kind of thing this thread is all about: stirring up controversy so that we can better understand how our metagame works and the things that cause major shifts in it.
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Bear in mind that base Sableye has base 50/75/65 defenses and still manages to stall out a lot of the (UU) meta due to priority recovery and willowisp. Nape's typing is overall worse but it has a crucial resistance to the fire types that are immune to will-o-wisp and a good offensive presence even when uninvested due to high bp STABs.
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