Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Here we go again

Intimidate Cobalion is probably my favorite because I love intimidate and Cobalion's typing. He'd make a very effective physical check and moves like volt switch, swords dance, and thunder wave can easily take advantage of free turns and his high speed.

Defiant Entei sounds a little scary. Long story short, I hate how annoying Bisharp can be just from being in team preview, and with sacred fire/extreme speed, Entei would be even worse

Regenerator Florges is a good theory, and I'd love to see if it would work. Regenerator is one of my favorite abilities as well, for similar reasons to intimidate, and with a cool move pool, I think it's a strong option

Sand Rush Mega Garchomp is an idea I actually considered submitting myself, but chose not to because it'd be to much trouble. It doesn't sound that hard to stall a few turns, but this one of the best wall breakers in the game in terms of shear power. Assuming you manage to defeat and fairy or flier, it really doesn't matter which three pokes are left, just spam EQ or outrage. It seems pretty uninformative.

 

[Isa Simple]

Entei + Defiant: This is probably my favorite idea and will likely get my vote. I've always loved tank sets for Arcanine and Entei and Defiant is a really useful ability. Entei now brings more utility to the table being able to ward off defoggers as well as having access to Sacred Fire. Mind you being able to OHKO the most common defogger in the game with CB extreme speed is a little scary, but will make it extremely interesting to see what other defoggers strive in response to this thing. I think Defiant Entei will have a decent effect on the meta it will be cool to see what defoggers will become more or less used.

Mega Garchomp + Sand Rush: I'll admit, Garchomp is my favorite pokemon from the 4th gen, and it pains me to see its mega being less viable than himself. So yes, I was trying to just about break him and send him to the top of the viability rankings when I recommended this. However I still don't think this thing will break the meta by any means, a lot of bulky waters such as Slowbro and its Mega for example still have little to no trouble with Mega Garchomp given that they aren't affected by its speed. They can still take its hits and destroy it with Ice Beam. It has plenty of checks still. Without Sand Storm up this thing is still a B- pokemon. Without sand almost anything packing a decent Ice move can out speed and OHKO it, and with sand up it can be walled by certain pokemon and have its Sand stalled out. It is also worth noting that with the introduction of Mega Swampert, Politoad's usage has increased a little, which increases weather counter play. Now the standard Specs Politoad can't switch into Mega Chomp without getting 2HKOd before it can to anything, but if you bring it in on the same turn, after a slower VS/U-turn/BP or after Mega Chomp has killed something,
politoad can beat it 1v1 with Hydro pump or Ice beam OHKOing. Even if you suicide a Politoad to Mega Chomp just switching it in, you will still prevent it from sweeping by denying it its Sand. There are also many other pokes that can survive a hit from Chomp and proceed to OHKO is brought in safely. So at the end of the day I feel really weird saying my idea isn't as good as we thought, but what I'm trying to say is that even though this thing will kick a lot of asses in its days, it will never break the meta.

 

[Sun King]

Mega Garchomp + Sand Rush: I'll admit, Garchomp is my favorite pokemon from the 4th gen, and it pains me to see its mega being less viable than himself. So yes, I was trying to just about break him and send him to the top of the viability rankings when I recommended this. However I still don't think this thing will break the meta by any means, a lot of bulky waters such as Slowbro and its Mega for example still have little to no trouble with Mega Garchomp given that they aren't affected by its speed. They can still take its hits and destroy it with Ice Beam. It has plenty of checks still. Without Sand Storm up this thing is still a B- pokemon. Without sand almost anything packing a decent Ice move can out speed and OHKO it, and with sand up it can be walled by certain pokemon and have its Sand stalled out. It is also worth noting that with the introduction of Mega Swampert, Politoad's usage has increased a little, which increases weather counter play. Now the standard Specs Politoad can't switch into Mega Chomp without getting 2HKOd before it can to anything, but if you bring it in on the same turn, after a slower VS/U-turn/BP or after Mega Chomp has killed something,
politoad can beat it 1v1 with Hydro pump or Ice beam OHKOing. Even if you suicide a Politoad to Mega Chomp just switching it in, you will still prevent it from sweeping by denying it its Sand. There are also many other pokes that can survive a hit from Chomp and proceed to OHKO is brought in safely. So at the end of the day I feel really weird saying my idea isn't as good as we thought, but what I'm trying to say is that even though this thing will kick a lot of asses in its days, it will never break the meta.

I really like what you're saying, as you're totally right--it's not impossible to deal with. I do think that forcing a sacrifice in order to take it out is borderline broken though. That's essentially why Mega Mawile got the boot; in order to take it out, you had to make plays that ended up hurting you in the long run. I'm not saying that MegaChomp would get banned necessarily, but I AM saying that it's going to centralize the metagame. I'd be shocked if every team didn't start packing a strong Ice-type move (as we've seen with Weavile in the ORAS metagame to deal with MegaMence). This would absolutely change the state of the metagame.

 

[Isa Simple]

I really like what you're saying, as you're totally right--it's not impossible to deal with. I do think that forcing a sacrifice in order to take it out is borderline broken though. That's essentially why Mega Mawile got the boot; in order to take it out, you had to make plays that ended up hurting you in the long run. I'm not saying that MegaChomp would get banned necessarily, but I AM saying that it's going to centralize the metagame. I'd be shocked if every team didn't start packing a strong Ice-type move (as we've seen with Weavile in the ORAS metagame to deal with MegaMence). This would absolutely change the state of the metagame.

I'm was only suggesting perhaps sacrificing Politoad considering you'll get up rain, die, and get a rain sweeper in easily for a possible sweep right then and there. Mind you it still doesn't force a sacrifice. I used Politoad as an example but if you can get anything in safely that can avoid the OHKO and proceed to destroy chomp with an ice move then your set. You are right though this will be very impactful on the meta.

 

[silver97]

Entei + Defiant: This is probably my favorite idea and will likely get my vote. I've always loved tank sets for Arcanine and Entei and Defiant is a really useful ability. Entei now brings more utility to the table being able to ward off defoggers as well as having access to Sacred Fire. Mind you being able to OHKO the most common defogger in the game with CB extreme speed is a little scary, but will make it extremely interesting to see what other defoggers strive in response to this thing. I think Defiant Entei will have a decent effect on the meta it will be cool to see what defoggers will become more or less used.

Mega Garchomp + Sand Rush: I'll admit, Garchomp is my favorite pokemon from the 4th gen, and it pains me to see its mega being less viable than himself. So yes, I was trying to just about break him and send him to the top of the viability rankings when I recommended this. However I still don't think this thing will break the meta by any means, a lot of bulky waters such as Slowbro and its Mega for example still have little to no trouble with Mega Garchomp given that they aren't affected by its speed. They can still take its hits and destroy it with Ice Beam. It has plenty of checks still. Without Sand Storm up this thing is still a B- pokemon. Without sand almost anything packing a decent Ice move can out speed and OHKO it, and with sand up it can be walled by certain pokemon and have its Sand stalled out. It is also worth noting that with the introduction of Mega Swampert, Politoad's usage has increased a little, which increases weather counter play. Now the standard Specs Politoad can't switch into Mega Chomp without getting 2HKOd before it can to anything, but if you bring it in on the same turn, after a slower VS/U-turn/BP or after Mega Chomp has killed something,
politoad can beat it 1v1 with Hydro pump or Ice beam OHKOing. Even if you suicide a Politoad to Mega Chomp just switching it in, you will still prevent it from sweeping by denying it its Sand. There are also many other pokes that can survive a hit from Chomp and proceed to OHKO is brought in safely. So at the end of the day I feel really weird saying my idea isn't as good as we thought, but what I'm trying to say is that even though this thing will kick a lot of asses in its days, it will never break the meta.

All you're saying is right, sand rush mega chomp in fact is not a wallbreaker and you don't have to use it to break opposing team defenses. That's the whole Point of having sand rush, you don't setup sand on turn 1 and start sweeping on turn 2, you have to use it as a lategame cleaner when everything is weakened enough. Excadrill has a lot of answers as well, But it's still a fuckin monster, same goes with chomp that hits slightly less hard but has the possibility to go mixed with fire blast or dmeteor

 

[Hogg]

Yeah, I think SR MegaChomp is not the most broken thing in the world - again, it's less broken than, say, MegaMence. But unlike Excadrill, it has the Special Attack to muscle through many of its usual counters, and the bulk to survive most hits. Again, we're talking about something with better physical bulk than Mega Swampert. Slowbro stops it? Try again, Slowbro is 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor + EQ, and even with a Naughty nature on Chomp, Ice Beam won't OHKO. Ice Shard to save the day? LO Weavile can't OHKO with Ice Shard, and LO Mamoswine only has an 18.8% chance. And that's with no defensive investment - I ran my calcs with a Naughty MegaChomp, 252 Att/32 SpAtt/224 Speed. It can actually run 0 Speed EVs and still outspeed 252+ base 150s in the sand... I just gave it 224 to outspeed Scarf Latios and max speed Adamant Excadrill.

It's not unstoppable, just like Excadrill isn't unstoppable, but as others have said, it's super centralizing.

 

[Draco765]

I love MegaChomp, but I can definitely see where you guys are coming from saying it could be broken. But as someone who very much enjoyed using MegaChomp in XY, I will definitely say that it is not unwallable. It really wants a way past fairies that Sand Rush sort of actively hurts (with its main niche right now being a very strong earthquake.) Its raw speed would make it a terror to offensive teams, but more defensive built teams would have much fewer issues unless Chomp can get a SD, which, while not hard thanks to good bulk, means MegaChomp mush more vulnerable to being revenged,, as well as losing coverage for Skarmory and the like.

 

[Master B8s]

Intimidate Cobalion- I like this buff. Cobalion has tons of utility, as well as fantastic bulk and typing. Cobalion can spread Thunder waves, stealth rocks, as well as volt switch out for momentum. Cobalion can also use intimidate to come in, force a switch and set up swords dances. granted, 90 Attack isn't very good, but 108 Speed (going by X/Y speed tiers) coupled with its typing is pretty good. I see more people wanting to use defensive sets, but Offensive sets would be a nice surprise factor.

Defiant Entei- This seems more like a defiant buff, but Entei gains a buff from it to. Defiant discourages Intimidate users and Deffogers, while a +2 (+1 from intimidate) Entei is still quite threatening. Though his move pool is very one dimensional, it has what it needs to be good. Sacred Fire for an obvious stab choice, as anything that can switch into a sacred fire doesn't like to get burned. Stone edge and Bulldoze make EdgeQuake coverage, so heatran doesn't come in for free, while ExtremeSpeed rounds off with a strong Prioirty move to make up for Enteis average speed (again, by X/Y speed tiers), not to mention to use ExtremeSpeed, which you will want to, you have to run Adamant, which means there is no hope to speed tie other base 100s. This one has my vote because both Defiant and Entei needed a buff, and this theorymon gives them both a buff.

Regenerator Florges- Finally, Florges has an ability that isn't worthless. But in all seriousness, I'm very middle of the road about this one. I like Sylveon for its ability to pass bigger wishes, as florges has only 78 base Hp, while Sylveon is not as passive with Pixilate Hyper Voice to threaten your opponent. It does make Florges less reliant on its own wishes. I say this would be a huge buff before ORAS when Greninja didn't get Gunk shot because florges would hard stop it, but still on the fence about this one. Im not saying no to it, but nothing screams yes to me.

Mega Chomp + Sand Rush- No. I shit a brick just reading that. It gets stopped by most of the things Excadrill gets stopped by, but Garchomp can run fire blast, which makes Skarmory and Chesnaught shaky checks, as they are 2HKOed by Fire Blast uninvested. That leaves Landorus-T which is one counter, but it gets worn down for switching in repeatedly. It does miss out on a boosting item since it is a mega, but with a 482 Attack stat, it still hits just as hard as excadrill. Garchomps bulk is also much better to stomach hits. For example, Excadrill is OHKOed by Defensive Landorus-Ts Earthquake, while Garchomp is 3HKOed by Earthquake. MegaChomps 108/115/95 is actually fantastic bulk for a wallbreaker/late game cleaner. I won't vote for this one, its just way too big of a buff, and would be an unhealthy one for the metagame.

$0.02

 

[hawk1113]

Yeah, I think SR MegaChomp is not the most broken thing in the world - again, it's less broken than, say, MegaMence. But unlike Excadrill, it has the Special Attack to muscle through many of its usual counters, and the bulk to survive most hits. Again, we're talking about something with better physical bulk than Mega Swampert. Slowbro stops it? Try again, Slowbro is 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor + EQ, and even with a Naughty nature on Chomp, Ice Beam won't OHKO. Ice Shard to save the day? LO Weavile can't OHKO with Ice Shard, and LO Mamoswine only has an 18.8% chance. And that's with no defensive investment - I ran my calcs with a Naughty MegaChomp, 252 Att/32 SpAtt/224 Speed. It can actually run 0 Speed EVs and still outspeed 252+ base 150s in the sand... I just gave it 224 to outspeed Scarf Latios and max speed Adamant Excadrill.

It's not unstoppable, just like Excadrill isn't unstoppable, but as others have said, it's super centralizing.

Yeah, running through those same calcs, a set of...

Garchomp-Mega @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin -> Sand Rush
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast

Is just brutal, and does indeed seem to leave just Mega-Bro, Specs Sylveon, Landorus-T, and (strangely enough) Physically Defensive Granbull as "sure-fire" counters (and even they will get badly maimed by MegaChomp). Also, 224 speed is nice but those 32 HP EVs aren't doing a lot for him - 252 allows him to outspeed Scarf Weavile and Scarf Greninja, thus removing two more possible checks. Assault Vest Conkeldurr is able to tank anything MegaChomp dishes out, but Ice Punch only has a 68% chance to OHKO. Dragonite has a 95% chance to survive an Outrage and fire back with its own OHKO Outrage, but that's only if Multiscale is intact and will almost certainly leave D-nite dead to sand damage afterwards. Clefable or Talonflame can wound Chomp badly, but neither can KO him before he KOs them making them shaky checks. It requires support, but like ;lmlm said it's hard to imagine any team stopping this thing without sacrificing at least one and possibly two 'mons to drop him.

 

[Sun King]

I think the deadliest thing about Chomp is its speed coupled with that bulk. It would be completely fine if it could be outsped and KO'd or flat out KO'd by priority. The problem is that you can't just stick a Choice Scarf on a Dragon-Type or mon with Ice Beam and you're good to go. In order to take this down, you need to have serious bulk on your team. Part of why I've always hated MegaChomp is that it has the power to break defensive things. Obviously that power isn't messing around, but power alone isn't really good enough to determine brokenness. It's the combination of well distributed power, obscene speed, and good bulk that makes this submission a little over the edge for me. I simply cannot justify voting for something that forces opponents into bad positions simply by being on the field. I know I always say that I vote for the thing that shakes up the tier the most, but I can't do it this time. It would be too unhealthy for the tier.

 

[Hogg]

I don't know that I'd consider Specs Sylveon a counter - EQ has a 43.8% chance to OHKO after rocks damage, and it certainly can't switch in. You could maybe call it a check, but it's a super shaky check.

Re: the EVs, I actually had the extra 32 EVs in Special Attack rather than HP, but I didn't bother checking to see if it nets any extra KOs. I just plugged in enough Speed to hit 276 and dumped the remaining into offenses. If Scarf Greninja remains popular, rather than a one trick pony to handle MegaMence, then max Speed is probably better.

You could play a pretty brutal defensive version of this set too with no Speed - you'll lose to base 100 and above Scarfers, but you're still faster than the most popular scarfer in the game, Lando-T, and adding in some extra defensive EVs could give you the bulk to get off a Swords Dance. SD/EQ/Dragon Claw/Fire Blast on a bulkier build could be pretty scary also.

In any case, as fun as it is to theorymon for Sand Rush Mega-Garchomp, I certainly won't be voting for it. It's cool and thematic, but I think it's too much. I think I'm still leaning toward Intimidate Cobalion as my favorite, although I do really like Defiant Entei.

 

[heritage]

Yeah, I'm not going to vote for Chomp just because it would be so over-powered. It really border-lines on the broken-ness clause, to be honest. I want to keep the ladder healthy, and Sand Rush Garchomp would certainly pressure the tier.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

So, if we're not going to talk about Garchomp anymore, let's talk about the others.

Cobalion Sets
-support sets,
-calm mind set
-SD set
-rest talk (edit)

This thing has crazy versatility and so many tools to punish free turns with its just crazy. Moves Like SR and T wave at 108 speed is scary if you pair it with some good ground/fire/fighting resists to come in after a volt switch (lando t?). Probably a little gimmicky, but a toxic stalling set with protect and calm mind jumps out as a nice surprise, or just a regular calm mind set with focus blast and hp ghost. Then the SD set that probably won't be standard, but still very dangerous for cleaning if you don't have something to wall it.

Entei Sets
-all-out attacker

There's only really 1 set for this one, but you do have some versatility with the coverage (bulldoze, iron head, stone edge, etc.) and item (life orb, AV, band). The real interesting thing is team mates. You'll need a rocks setter and spin blocker. I was theorizing a fwg trio of Ferro, jelly, and AV Entei, but I haven't done calcs yet.

Florges sets
-still working on it

It's hard to say which sets will be worth using over sylveon without actually using it. I was thinking a specially defensive wish passing set paired with slow bro, but it'll need support. Maybe a surprise t spikes team with a hex gengar cleaner? I'd like to see how this poke would influence the meta, but I'd kinda rather go with more sure fire options

 

[hawk1113]

The set I was messing around with on Cobalion is...

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Taunt

Support Move of choice + Volt Switch + Intimidate is a winning strategy, with Thunder Wave being my personal favorite to help harass and disrupt opposing sweepers even more. 40 SpA EVs ensures the 2HKO on any of his numerous ground-type switch-ins thanks to his "BoltBeam" coverage. With the rest in HP, Cobalion can actually come in on many ground types, tank their Earthquakes uninvested thanks to the -1 from Intimidate, and kill them with HP which is awesome. Close Combat allows Cobalion to continue to fulfill his role of "Dark-type" killer even without Justified, OHKOing the likes of Bisharp, Weavile, and other STAB Knock Off-spammers, and also mangles blobs, Excadrill, and Ferrothorn.

Like Kairyu said though, there's plenty more options for Cobalion, including a pure physical wall, a Rest Talk wall set, a SD Sweeper, a Calm Mind set, or a more pure support set that drops HP or Close Combat for additional support options. Lots of cool stuff to do with this guy.

 

[SparksBlade]

;lmlm you ded?

 

[bb skarm]

Generally we bring up when it's time to vote in our conversation, at the moment we are discussing a solid slate and consider our submissions. Although we don't have a perfect answer, I can assure you all voting will start this week :)

 

[Salemance]

Well I'm still torn what I want to vote for but hopefully illbfifure it out soon. Always hate having to pick the favorite.

 

[Sun King]

;lmlm you ded?

Nah, I ain't dead. You can't kill the Sun King that easily.

Soooo... Voting? I think discussion is over y / n?

We'll start voting soon. Sometimes we get activity after a few days of nothing, so I was checking to see if that was the case.

 

[Salemance]

Alright everybody, its time for another exciting edition of Theorymon Voting!

The candidates who wish to steal your heart and become slight reality this week are:

- Defiant Entei

- A Coballion with Intimidate

- Regenerator Florges!


And remember, in order to get one of these guys the win, your vote must be submitted in bold with the one you wanting to win demonstrated clearly like so:

Mega Chomp + Sand Rush


Now due to some thoughts on the council and stressed by yall, it seems we sorta overlooked the down right ridiculousness of Sand Rush on Mega Chomp, and have decided it best to take it off the slate for the time being. It was an oversight on our part it sending out community ideas and while it may still be a great one, its just a bit much for what we try to do here. Sorry for the inconvenience yall.

Happy Voting period to all (and may the best campaign win!)!

 

[Sun King]

Well I guess we're going. I just want to say to all of you members that I personally am sorry we slated Garchomp. I believe we fucked up, and I want to take accountability for that. I will take it upon myself to do a better job censoring OP submissions, and I am sure the rest of the council would do the same. I certainly take the fall for pitching Sand Rush MegaChomp to the council, but I do believe it ultimately falls on all of us to know better. Once again, sorry folks. Won't happen again.

Now, for my vote, I'm going to go with my gut and say Florges + Regenerator.

 

[Salemance]

Screw Garchomp
Cobalion + Intimidate

So you say poor man, so you say.



Now my vote I guess....what do I want to survive this culling?

Regenerator Florges

I hate Entei with a passion for whatever reason and would like to see Florges actually have a niche in the current meta. For the flower thing!


EDIT: Already Edited it ;lmlm so guess its fine. We fucked up and it happens. Happened before and try as we might it may happen gain. Only human so don't complain much

 

[Celticpride]

Regenerator + Florges

Salemance how does anyone hate Entei D:
I guess that third movie with the weird voiced Entei could have ruined it for some but still

 

[skies]

Regenerator Florges

 

[Salemance]

Regenerator + Florges

Salemance how does anyone hate Entei D:
I guess that third movie with the weird voiced Entei could have ruined it for some but still

Its a personal thing. I never liked it much cause when it came to teamslots I still almost always pick Arcanine over it just cause of its utility and being a fun mon to abuse. Never found that in Entei even with Sacred Fire spam.
At least its not like Salamence and where I just hated it when I saw it.

 

[Valmanway]

Regenerator Florges