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Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Because Blaziken itself got Speed Boost as ability and access to HJK, making it banworthy.
ok, thanks
Hm. I suppose tracking the usage of mons carrying mega stones and those without is too much trouble then? Or is that sort of thing not even worth bothering with?
most of the mons with OP megas are being banned from their respective tiers anyways, like mega lopunny and mega beedrill.
I understand OU is first priority, but banning from the bottom rather than just going off the OU usage of a pokemon with mega potential would be more correct for the other tiers.
The problems is the base form crosses the usage threshold regardless of what it is holding, therefore it is OU. Base Form Mawile appeared on more than 3.34% of OU teams, so it's OU. There's a topic in Policy Review on this issue, can't link because I'm on my mobile.
To be fair, only UU's tiering is based on OU usage. RU tiering is based on UU usage, and NU tiering is based off RU usage. But honestly, another issue with tiering a Mega's base form separately from its base form is that in reality it's quite subjective. Many see megas as new mons separate from the base forms, but others, such as a large portion of the Ubers players, see megas as possible sets for a mon to run. One could also argue that a mega is just the base form holding an item similar to Soul Dew. All three of these views are reasonable views that aren't really incorrect, but when you start tiering mons based off whether they're using a Mega Stone, it gets weird. It makes sense from a "Megas are new mons" perspective, but from a "Megas are sets" or "Megas are just the base mons holding a specific item", this seems weird because now certain mons are being tiered based on set usage or item usage, not raw usage, which in the eyes of some would be the equivalent of saying that Toxic Orb Darmanitan should be RU but Choice item and Life Orb Darmanitan should be UU. Keeping mons tiered only on usage reasonably satisfies the other two views since we're still maintaining that a mon is based solely on usage, not the usage of different sets. Yes, those with the "megas are different mons" view miss out on using Gardevoir in UU or Charizard in NU, but the current tiering system is arguably much more objective than a system where Megas are tiered separately from base forms, which also means fewer long-term issues with precedence.
The megas are in fact evolutions. It wouldn't be weird at all because Mega Charizard X is a completely different pokemon from Charizard. Same goes for the rest of them. It's not simply a set just because people like to think it is.
Like a said, it's only a view: not a fact, simply a subjective way to look at Megas. Here's my counter argument to the "Megas are separate mons" argument: if Megas are an evolution, i.e. mons that are separate from their base forms, why can't I have Mega Charizard X on my team? I don't mean a Charizard holding the Mega Stone, I mean Mega Charizard X. Because Mega Charizard X, as an individual Pokemon, doesn't technically exist: a base form that changes into it mid-battle exists, but that's no different than Meloetta changing forms with Relic Song. Kyurem's forms, on the other hand, despite having the same Dex number, are mons that exist before the battle starts: they can be directly placed into your team, and no move, ability, or held item is required to bring them out mid-battle.
This isn't to say that I don't think of Megas as being separate Mons from their base forms either, but it's not incorrect to view them as sets for the base form either. When you analyze tiering based on one of these two views, you get one of two results:
1. A system where Megas have separate tiering from their base forms. Proponents of the "Megas are item-based sets" view could very well argue that we now have precedence for tiering based on item usage and try and work to tier everything else on item usage. It's not to say it would happen, but it would be an issue that could recur and cause additional grief to the tiering staff.
2. Our current system. It's more restrictive, but since Megas can't truly be proven to be "new Mons" in the most literal sense ("can I place this mon directly on my team"), it has fewer long-term implications and is easier to defend.
Ultimately, some subgroup is going to be unhappy with either tiering system, so it makes since to go with the system that is easier to justify and arguably sets fewer, if any, precedence to base more unreasonable demands from.
Similarly, though, you wouldn't be banning a mon from a tier, you'd just be banning an item. Like the way gengarite is banned from OU.
Mawile is the killer example. No reason why mawilite shouldn't be banned from OU just like gengarite is, then Mawile would end up wherever it ended up (NU probably).
There are more problems with banning gardevoirite, say, from UU, because that wouldn't stop Gardevoir from still being OU and hence banned from OU regardless of the status of its stone. But there is no reason in principle why it shouldn't be possible to ban a stone from a lower tier like that, even if it has no immediate impact.
Mawile is the killer example. No reason why mawilite shouldn't be banned from OU just like gengarite is, then Mawile would end up wherever it ended up (NU probably).
There are more problems with banning gardevoirite, say, from UU, because that wouldn't stop Gardevoir from still being OU and hence banned from OU regardless of the status of its stone. But there is no reason in principle why it shouldn't be possible to ban a stone from a lower tier like that, even if it has no immediate impact.
True, but if Charizard's base form is OU by usage, assuming you ban its stones from all non-OU tiers, how do you determine what tier to put its base form it? If its base form is OU by usage, you would need another objective criteria to determine whether to drop its base form into UU, which would in turn let it drop further down. What do you use to make this decision?
Your likely first answer is to use the usage of Charizard without a Mega Stone. However, now you're dividing Charizard's usage between it's Mega Stone and other items, i.e. dividing Charizard's usage into Charizard's item usage, which could feed future arguments for dividing other mons by usage + item. You can argue that Mega Stones are different from other items, but how so? Anyone can hold any Mega Stone. Because it only has effects for certain mons? Then how is Light Ball or Soul Dew any different from a Mega stone? Because certain sets are only viable given the use of Mega Stones? Darmanitan's going to have a harder time wallbreaking without something upping his speed or power.
It's easy to drop Mawile because there is no "Mawile+Mawilite" usage in OU anymore, but it's much harder to objectively tier mons whose Megas still see usage in non-Ubers tiers. The system's not perfect, but I don't think the solution to improving it is as easy as people make it out to be.
I don't get why it's so hard to link usage to a pokemon + an item. Say charizard and charizardite, and then a charizard without the item. If It's being used with charizardite in OU then the stone should move up, but if charizard alone isn't being used in OU then what is so hard about leaving it in NU where it was? I'm not saying we base pokemon usage off of the items they hold, I am saying that I don't see why it couldn't work for mega stones. Can someone (preferably Sanger Zonvolt cause he seems to know what he's talking about) explain the fundamentals to me? Yes I realise it complicates the system a tad, but let me paint you a picture:
Let's say I start off with charizard holding the mega stone in NU. I use it a bit, then RU starts to use it more than NU (keep in mind this is with the mega stone, not charizard alone). So RU starts to get its usage up to 4% when it's holding the stone, but charizard's usage without the stone is a mere 1% in RU (Im not sure how easy it'd be to code a system where you track item usage and non item usage)... But anyway, that means they can track the stone's usage and send it up to RU, while NU still has regular charizard. Like I said, I'm no coder, but I don't see how it could be that difficult to make a system where items on a pokemon (specifically mega stones only) are calculated, usage wise, differently to that of regular pokemon. If there was a way (and I'm almost 99% sure there is at this point) to pinpoint the usage of the mega stone and the pokemon together in one tier, and the the usage of the pokemon without the mega stone separately then wouldn't I be able to use my Charizard in NU, whilst RU has the stone by usage? Thus the stone would be an RU tier only thing (or UU and then OU when it rises) and the charizard would thus be NU by usage without the stone. Forgive me if I know nothing, but to me this makes sense, provided we do it for the stones, not counting other items like specs or whatever.
Edit: This is probably not a simple question, and it deserves its own thread I'm sure, but at it's base this was a simple question in some long paragraphs.
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Probably the biggest problem with that right now is that most pokemon with Mega evolutions are simply not used out of their mega form.
I think we'd all agree that Charizard's base form is probably largely unviable in the OU meta, for example last gen I believe it sat in NU. There is no way of compiling data where Charizard is using an item other than its megastones, because the data simply isn't there.
I see where you're coming from thought, what you propose works fine on paper at least from the bottom up, but not from top down. Mawile is the go-to example here, as Mawilite was banned, it's now stuck, it's not getting use in OU because any potential set it could pull off is way outclassed by another mon. But since Mawile's usage was high enough to boost it into OU outright there is no data, from this generation at least, about Mawile without Mawilite. I guess it's just got to wait until it drops naturally, similar to how Lucario fell to UU after its megastone was banned.
I think we'd all agree that Charizard's base form is probably largely unviable in the OU meta, for example last gen I believe it sat in NU. There is no way of compiling data where Charizard is using an item other than its megastones, because the data simply isn't there.
I see where you're coming from thought, what you propose works fine on paper at least from the bottom up, but not from top down. Mawile is the go-to example here, as Mawilite was banned, it's now stuck, it's not getting use in OU because any potential set it could pull off is way outclassed by another mon. But since Mawile's usage was high enough to boost it into OU outright there is no data, from this generation at least, about Mawile without Mawilite. I guess it's just got to wait until it drops naturally, similar to how Lucario fell to UU after its megastone was banned.
If there is no data for the usage of a non-mega, then by default it should move down a tier due to it having no usage. This can be determined by using the system i suggested. I'm sure there are some people using specs charizard in OU for the lols, but we don't know now because the system hasn't been made where mega stone usage is different to non mega stone usage yet. Also, if they can, I'd like a mod to tell me if I should start up a different thread for this or if it's okay to discuss here.
My take on it is to view the Megas more as a set the Pokemon, as others have echoed.
I can't run a Sableye with leftovers and a Mega Sableye on the same team, and any Mega, however briefly, still requires you to play with its base form in account, whether that's a benefit like Sableye's Prankster, or a detriment like Base Charizard's Typing (in the case of Zard-X). If the Megas were something more akin to Kyurem or Rotom's forms, I could see your case, but the fact that I cannot start the battle off with a Pokemon already in its Mega form means I am in some capacity using the Base form for my team.
A spike in usage for Gardevoir w/ Gardevoirite would in turn mean more teams are running base Gardevoir, hence she moves up. But a spike in usage for Rotom-W or Rotom-H does inherently mean more teams have Rotom-F on them.
And to go outside OU for a bit, Rayquaza does not Mega evolve using an item, which for all intents and purposes means if alternate Mega evolutions followed suit, they could not be tiered separately either, since there's no stone to track.
I can't run a Sableye with leftovers and a Mega Sableye on the same team, and any Mega, however briefly, still requires you to play with its base form in account, whether that's a benefit like Sableye's Prankster, or a detriment like Base Charizard's Typing (in the case of Zard-X). If the Megas were something more akin to Kyurem or Rotom's forms, I could see your case, but the fact that I cannot start the battle off with a Pokemon already in its Mega form means I am in some capacity using the Base form for my team.
A spike in usage for Gardevoir w/ Gardevoirite would in turn mean more teams are running base Gardevoir, hence she moves up. But a spike in usage for Rotom-W or Rotom-H does inherently mean more teams have Rotom-F on them.
And to go outside OU for a bit, Rayquaza does not Mega evolve using an item, which for all intents and purposes means if alternate Mega evolutions followed suit, they could not be tiered separately either, since there's no stone to track.
We actually only take use the usage of players with higher ladder ratings to determine usage as opposed to the whole ladder, so given the necessary ladder rating for your input to matter, you wouldn't see Specs Charizard. Incidently, unless I'm mistaken, I believe we do have item statistics that are tracked (of course there are dead links in the data discussion thread when I actually need them). The issue is how we actually approach tiering.
The issue with this is that Mega Stones can't really be tiered on their own. If you compare their use against all other items, the values have no meaning (how many Charizardite X do you see in a battle versus Leftovers?). If you try and compare them to the usage of other mons, the only value that would have meaning is the usage of the mons holding the stone, so you're right back to just comparing the usage of Charizard+Stone to the usage of the rest of the tier. Even if you tried treating the stones as their own mon, they can't be used without the base form, so base forms would see the same usage numbers, leading back to having to split Zard by his sets. Remember, the issue isn't whether we can get the data. The issue is keeping the tiering system as objective as possible. It's one thing for the councils to ban mons within the tier, but when the tiering of any mon becomes set-dependent, it opens up the issue of "If Pokemon X can be in two tiers based on its sets, why can't others?" which is a battle no one wants to fight.
Damn dude thanks a whole lot! I was only expecting a rough explanation but you went all out with this. I really appreciate it because I never really had a skeleton for balance before so this will help me with building ALOT.This might not be classified as a "simple answer", but the question cannot be answered well without going kind of in-depth, so here goes n_n
When building a balanced team, my teams generally consist of defensive backbone capable of dealing with most threats, and an offensive core capable of breaking down even bulkier cores. Sometimes, I use a pre-made archetype, which consists of the following:
Wallbreaker | Wallbreaker 2 or Stallbreaker | Revenge Killer or Speed Control | Hazard Setter | Pivot | Filler
Wallbreakers are key Pokemon on every Balance team. In order to not only be able to break through Offense, but also opposing Balance and Stall, your team has to pack at least one Pokemon with the ability to break holes in the opponents cores. These Pokemon are generally offensive, with a lot of offensive presence, in form of high offensive stats, or access to high BP moves.
If it doesn't fit your team to run two wallbreakers, and it feels the need of the defensive presence some stallbreakers provide, running a Pokemon specified to beat stall is a very good option of most Balance teams. Stallbreakers can be both offensive and defensive, and the need for one or the other varies depending on the rest of your team.
To not auto-lose to setup sweepers such as DD Mega Charizard X, DD Mega Altaria, etc., you either have to have a defensive check, or a potent reveneg killer. These revenge killers have to have a naturally high Base Speed, or access to some form of strong priority move. Choice Scarf Pokemon make great revenge killers too, as they are able to revenge most setup sweepers, even if they are at +1.
Having another way of stopping setup sweepers is an option aswell. Prankster Thunder Wave is the most viable option here, and there are very few Pokemon who has access to that combination in the OU metagame.
Entry hazards are a must on every Balance team, as well. In order to stand a chance at breaking holes in bulkier teams, damage from Stealth Rock and possibly Spikes are ever so helpful. Wearing down Offense also becomes much easier, as switching around means that your opponent will take a lot of damage.
Both offensive and defensive pivots are great additions to most teams, as they gain momentum for their team. This means setting entry hazards, and bringing in your wallbreakers becomes much easier. Defensive pivots are oftenly an important part of the defensive backbone in most Balance teams, too. These defensive Pokemon have usually have Regenerator or Natural Cure as abilities, or access to Volt Switch or U-Turn. Offensive pivots are most commonly Pokemon with access to Volt Switch or U-Turn, which lets them keep up their momentum.
Fillers are the Pokemon you add to your team to accomplish a role that your team is in need of. This can vary between Hazard Control | Defensive Glue | Pivot 2 | Hazard Setter 2If you are using one or more Pokemon weak to SR, I would adivse you to use a Pokemon capable of removing entry hazards on your side of the field. If running Spikes, Rapid spin is preferred over Defog, as you can keep your own hazards.
If your team is especially weak to one certain threat, using a defensive glue to patch up that weakness is a great solution, and use of the filler slot. Almost any defensively oriented Pokemon is capable of acting as a defensive glue, but some check more threats than others. Below, I'm going to list my personal favorites, as they check a lot of threats that seem to trouble Balance teams.
Running Spikes alongside Stealth Rock can be really profitable, if playing bulkier teams. Thus, if you already ahve the defensive core covered, you can use a Spikes setter in the filler slot.Hope I helped, god damn that was a lot of hide tags u_u[Wallbreaker]
[Wallbreaker 2]
[Hazard Setter]
[Pivot]
[Revenge Killer]
[Stallbreaker]
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 48 Atk / 208 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Gallade (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
Ferrothorn @ Shed Shell
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Tailwind
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Quick AttackGreninja and Mega Gallade form a terrifying offensive core, so thats the core i built the team around. Becuase physically defensive tanks, such as Landorus-T and Mega Sableye bothered Mega Gallade, I wanted to put Diggersby in the mix as well. It draws in Mega Sableye, and takes it on, so Gallade can have a lot of fun. The favor is returned as well, seeing as how Gallade draws in Skarmory for Diggersby to have a field day. To create a good defensive backbone, I added Rotom-W and Ferrothorn. These two Pokemon check the majority of the metagame, while providing hazard support, and momentum from Rotom-W's Volt Switch. Something that really troubled the defensive core was the two charizard Mega evolutions. Therefore, I added choice Scarf Latios, which revenge kills both of them, even when Mega Charizard X is at +1 Speed.
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Here's a question that's been bugging me for a while now: what the hell happened to Dusknoir?
From what I understand, the general consensus here is that it's trash because its bulk is undermined by its terrible HP stat and lack of reliable recovery, among other reasons. Okay... but as far as I know, those two things were still true back in Gen IV, and it was OU then. So what happened? I know that the metagame changes over time, but how did Dusknoir go from "pretty good in OU" to "barely viable in PU" over the course of two gens?
From what I understand, the general consensus here is that it's trash because its bulk is undermined by its terrible HP stat and lack of reliable recovery, among other reasons. Okay... but as far as I know, those two things were still true back in Gen IV, and it was OU then. So what happened? I know that the metagame changes over time, but how did Dusknoir go from "pretty good in OU" to "barely viable in PU" over the course of two gens?
I didn't play gen4, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. But, it appears Dusknoir was D rank in gen4, so despite being OU, it was absolutely terrible, and shouldn't have been OU in the first place. when gen 5 came out and sableye/cofagrigus were made better introduced, dusknoir now had 0 reason to be used: even less than in dpp. For reference, it's been bad in every tier it's been in (4 - OU, 5 - RU, 6 - PU), so I guess there really isn't much redeemable about it - people just like using it fsr.
edit: oh yeah like sanger said, defensively dusknoir was eclipsed by its pre evolution, adding insult to injury in gen 5
2 things. One, the introduction of Eviolite made Duskclops better than Dusknoir as a bulky mon and I believe Dusknoir makes for a poor offensive mon. This combined with the power creep that comes with every generation is what caused it to plummet.
I think you've slightly missed my point. I'm not suggesting we tier the mon separately from the stone. Charizard is OU is OU. What I am saying is that if Charizard dropped in popularity down to UU, it should then be possible to ban Charizardite-X from UU without banning Charizard from UU, just like Gengarite is banned from OU. But for some reason, Gengarite seems to be viewed uniquely in this regard.
If you ask a OU Moderator, and get their permission, you can post it here in the OU subforum. If sure many people would appreciate having a link to a damagecalc, now that the main one is down n_n
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