Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Valmanway]

Tornadus-Therian: B+ ---> B

Im not a man who likes drastic changes, but Tornadus is just ballsy. First off, it requires Rain support to even abuse its spammable move, plus it needs SR support (but most teams run Lati@s so) and second off, it may have a good ability and shit, but why use this thing if MPigeot just works 10x better. MPigeot only needs Hazard removal and it has basically the same coverage and the same things it kills. unless im missing something Tornadus-T really is only used on Rain, and even then ive never seen him sweep.

Basically the only reason why i want this down is cause of it relies on support and MPigeot kinda does his job better with less support.

I wouldn't call Pidgeot 10x better, since that's simply not true. In fact, I would go as far as to say that Tornadus-T is the one that's much better. While perfectly accurate Hurricanes are pretty sweet, that's really the only thing that Mega Pidgeot has going for it over Tornadus-T, as Tornadus-T has Focus Blast and Superpower to not be hard countered by Rock-types and Heatran, Knock Off to remove Leftovers, Life Orbs, etc..., Regenerator to keep himself healthy in case if hazards aren't removed yet, the ability to hold a Life Orb to do more damage, and isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning he has his high Speed off the bat and doesn't take up a Mega Slot. Sure, rain is mandatory for Tornadus-T to use Hurricane reliably, but Mega Pidgeot's flaws are both more apparent in a battle and more critical during team building than Tornadus-T's flaws.

I'm not necessarily saying that Tornadus-T shouldn't drop; I'll let others debate that one. I'm just saying that it isn't worse than Mega Pidgeot is all.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

I wouldn't call Pidgeot 10x better, since that's simply not true. In fact, I would go as far as to say that Tornadus-T is the one that's much better. While perfectly accurate Hurricanes are pretty sweet, that's really the only thing that Mega Pidgeot has going for it over Tornadus-T, as Tornadus-T has Focus Blast and Superpower to not be hard countered by Rock-types and Heatran, Knock Off to remove Leftovers, Life Orbs, etc..., Regenerator to keep himself healthy in case if hazards aren't removed yet, the ability to hold a Life Orb to do more damage, and isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning he has his high Speed off the bat and doesn't take up a Mega Slot. Sure, rain is mandatory for Tornadus-T to use Hurricane reliably, but Mega Pidgeot's flaws are both more apparent in a battle and more critical during team building than Tornadus-T's flaws.

I'm not necessarily saying that Tornadus-T shouldn't drop; I'll let others debate that one. I'm just saying that it isn't worse than Mega Pidgeot is all.

eh i was just trying to oversell it to make it sound good
tbh i wasnt saying MPigeot was good i was just saying MPigeot hits harder with less support but wastes a mega slot, like its easier to use.

 

[leremyju]

Just wondering, but how is mega latios B while latios is A

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Just wondering, but how is mega latios B while latios is A

Life orb Latios and Mega Latios deal about the same amount of damage, and while Mega Latios is a bit bulkier, the general consensus is that the extra bulk is not really worth the Mega slot, so the difference in the rankings reflects the opportunity cost of using Mega Latios over just using Life Orb Latios.

 

[TheTraininator]

I wouldn't call Pidgeot 10x better, since that's simply not true. In fact, I would go as far as to say that Tornadus-T is the one that's much better. While perfectly accurate Hurricanes are pretty sweet, that's really the only thing that Mega Pidgeot has going for it over Tornadus-T, as Tornadus-T has Focus Blast and Superpower to not be hard countered by Rock-types and Heatran, Knock Off to remove Leftovers, Life Orbs, etc..., Regenerator to keep himself healthy in case if hazards aren't removed yet, the ability to hold a Life Orb to do more damage, and isn't a Mega Evolution, meaning he has his high Speed off the bat and doesn't take up a Mega Slot. Sure, rain is mandatory for Tornadus-T to use Hurricane reliably, but Mega Pidgeot's flaws are both more apparent in a battle and more critical during team building than Tornadus-T's flaws.

I'm not necessarily saying that Tornadus-T shouldn't drop; I'll let others debate that one. I'm just saying that it isn't worse than Mega Pidgeot is all.

Well saying that 100% accurate Hurricane is the only thing Pidgeot does better than Torn-T is also simply not true. The most important difference is that it has access to Defog, wich allows it to function as an offensive Defogger of sorts similar to Lati@s and remove hazards on a forced switch, something Tornadus-T is unable to do. The other thing that Pidgeot has acces to is Roost, and while that may seem moot when compared to Regenerator's passive healing benefits, it allows for Pidgeot to run an effective SubRoost set to, again, capitalize on switches since it only ever needs Hurricane and Heat Wave. And do not dismiss 100% accurate Hurricane either, as that is a HUGE factor. If Torn-T wants to clean up and the end of a match, it has to count on that 30% chance every time it clicks Hurricane that it will miss and fail to do its job, forcing it to go itemless and use Acrobatics if it wants to retain efficency. This of course sacrifices a huge amount of its damage output to the point where most players do not find this a valuable option. Pidgeot however, will never have that worry and can always be counted on to clean up with ease. Pidgeot's consistency makes it much easier to do its job at the end of the day.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Pidgeot is so much better than Torn-T: in fact, all the benefits you mentioned are very good points, and obviously there is a huge opportunity cost with Pidge since it takes up your Mega slot. However, I feel that both Pidge and Torn have advantages over another that warrant neither of them to outclass the other. I won't give my ranking opinion of Pidge yet since that is currently way ahead of our current topic of discussion, but I'm establishing this statement as a reference point to come back to later.

 

[pika pal]

Well saying that 100% accurate Hurricane is the only thing Pidgeot does better than Torn-T is also simply not true. The most important difference is that it has access to Defog, wich allows it to function as an offensive Defogger of sorts similar to Lati@s and remove hazards on a forced switch, something Tornadus-T is unable to do.

I don't exactly think Pidgeot makes the most effective choice for a Defogger. You mentioned Latios as a comparison, but that raises the question of why you'd run Pidegot over it. Pidgeot requires the Mega stone, is itself weak to entry hazards, has less Special bulk for the same Physical, and factoring in a LO for Latios, doesn't achieve quite the same Power. Latios also has the option to run various moves like EQ or HP Fighting to lure some of his checks and counters, be they bulky special tanks, SR setters, Pursuit Trappers, or both (Tyranitar, Heatran, Bisharp).
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 328-390 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Pidgeot can barely manage a 2HKO on Heatran if it tries to lure with HP Ground
252 SpA Pidgeot Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 192-228 (49.8 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot: 145-172 (47 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pidgeot has very little means of getting around anything bulky that resists Hurricane, even if Heat Wave is neutral
252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pidgeot Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 138-164 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (who outspeeds to boot)
252 SpA Pidgeot Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 180-216 (44.6 - 53.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pidgeot Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 98-116 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 77.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Relevant as a Greninja check/Counter)

The problem presented by these is that 2 of these Pokemon are rock setters another outspeeds Pidegot, and yet another can Volt Switch on it into the hazard setter or another check and force Pidgeot out, which robs it of the chance to Roost or Defog. Being a Defogger weak to hazards was already sketchy for bulkier Mons like Mandibuzz or Zapdos, and while Pidegot is more offensively minded, Latios simply does the job better for offensive teams. With all that in mind, I don't think Mega Pidgeot makes for a viable Defog user in OU.

On the matter of any comparison to Tornadus-T, I don't think the two should be played the same, which makes such comparisons hard. Pidgeot plays best as you mentioned when cleaning, knocking out weakened foes with Hurricane and Heatwave once its resistors are dealt with. Tornadus-T, on the other hand, always struck me more as a scout/utility mon that happened to do decent damage besides. Regenerator offsetting its SR weakness meant it could more frequently afford to come in and U-Turn out to favorable match-ups, while punching holes with Hurricane/Focus Blast/Superpower, or removing items with Knock Off. Tornadus would punch holes or cripple opponents FOR the cleaners or to weaken a win conditions checks for them while still remaining healthy and powerful enough to contribute beyond that point.

 

[TheTraininator]

On the matter of any comparison to Tornadus-T, I don't think the two should be played the same, which makes such comparisons hard. Pidgeot plays best as you mentioned when cleaning, knocking out weakened foes with Hurricane and Heatwave once its resistors are dealt with. Tornadus-T, on the other hand, always struck me more as a scout/utility mon that happened to do decent damage besides. Regenerator offsetting its SR weakness meant it could more frequently afford to come in and U-Turn out to favorable match-ups, while punching holes with Hurricane/Focus Blast/Superpower, or removing items with Knock Off. Tornadus would punch holes or cripple opponents FOR the cleaners or to weaken a win conditions checks for them while still remaining healthy and powerful enough to contribute beyond that point.

You've inspired me. BRB, making a team of Tornadus-T/Mega Pidgeot/Talonflame/Staraptor/Honchkrow/Zapdos because FUCK STEALTH ROCKS.

In all seriousness though, yeah, I guess it isn't totally fair to compare Pidge and Torn because other than the speed tier and Hurricane spam, they are quite different. Oh, and the reason I mentioned Pidgeot as a Defogger was more of as a backup hazard remover rather than as a primary one, as of course it does have the Rocks weakness. It isn't meant to beat Rock setters 1-on-1, it's more of a "well I'm forcing this Gallade out anyway and the Heatran switchin is obvious, might as well take the time to remove some hazards" kind of thing. It can totally afford to free up a moveslot for it, it's not like it has 4MSS or anything. And yeah, like you said, don't bother with HP Ground, it's piss weak.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Amoongus: B ---> C+

Who even uses this junk. its so bad, the only thing saving it is its ability.
The thing doesnt work on Stall, HO, not even fucking balance. its a ballsy frail POS that doesnt even hit hard and is outclassed by a much better mon, MVenu. With its usage being below 1.000% and being outclassed by MVenu AND the new megas, just demote this.

Amoongus is solid B:
It checks anything that is not grass and cannot OHKO thanks to spore and unless you have a cleric, it is basically dead.
Its ability means it can repeatedly and reliably check/counter what it is supposed to.
Clear smog can prevent a sweep and means that it will never be setup bait even against taunters or with sleep clause active.
It is a super reliable switch against one of most used mons in the meta: Rotom-Wash.
It has reliable recovery in synthesis.

Mega-Venusaur has too much opportunity cost as a defensive mon on stall (they mostly want Mega-sableye/mega-bro) so as a -be it specially or physically- defensive grass you basically need to chose between Amoongus, Celebi, Ferrothorn and Chesnaught all of them covering different threats and can have different roles.
We should stop having the mindset that every pokemon has to be ranked on how well it handles megas. There are 5 other pokemon you need to also handle.

Last but not least, it is useless to appeal to usage as an argument for viability since viability is independent from usage.

 

[Kurona]

its a ballsy frail POS that doesnt even hit hard and is outclassed by a much better mon, MVenu. With its usage being below 1.000% and being outclassed by MVenu AND the new megas, just demote this.

The entire point of using Amoonguss is to have a substitute for MVenu when you're using the Mega Slot for a different Pokémon. Of course MVenu outclasses it, that's why it's ranked higher and is even considered viable at all. But when you can't use it because you have a different Mega, Amoonguss is generally your best option.

 

[AM]

I'll be perfectly honest, I don't think Amoonguss is that great in the meta. It sort of thrived where it was because of the general hype that lingered on that maintained itself till the end of XY. When your average well built team has an automatic answer to Amoonguss with little to no effort I think that becomes a problem in maintaining its current rank. Offense pretty much beats it with continuous offensive pressure as well as stallbreakers. Let's mention the fact that sleep clause is so easy to take advantage of and after that Amoonguss is basically a free switch into any relevant psychic type in the tier, which include M-Gallade and M-Metagross among others. Amoonguss pretty much loses to M-Sableye Stall flat out and in reality doesn't hinder the stall builds you see now a days. The worst part about Amoonguss in my eyes is the increase of hazard stacking on both offensive and defensive archetypes as it hinders its longevity that it normally would've maintained in a meta back when hazard stacking wasn't such a huge issue.

Someone mentioned a drop to C+ but I think that's too low. It still does have the benefits of providing some relief from certain archetypes such as Rain Offense which almost everything except Stall hates lol, Spore regardless of the sleep clause can still ease pressure for the team and provide some ample opportunities, and outside of its notable flaws it does maintain its positive traits of being a solid pivot that has decent synergy with a good portion of the tier. I think B- for Amoonguss looks more realistically to myself.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Let's go through how Mega Venu stacks up against the new Megas:
Beedrill: 50% chance to win
Pidgeot: Loses
Slowbro: Wins
Sceptile: Wins
Swampert: Wins
Sableye: Loses
Sharpedo: Wins
Camerupt: Loses
Metagross: Loses
Altaria: Wins
Latias: Loses
Latios: Loses
Lopunny: Wins
Gallade: Loses
Diancie: Wins

It literally breaks even on new Megas it beats and loses to. For every new threat that's a pain to for it, there's one it wall that's hard to handle otherwise. It should be A for it's ability to take on the new Fairy Megas in addition to all the other stuff it did before, throw Swampert, Sceptile and Lopunny on top of that and it comes out looking pretty good. BTW, defensive Venu isnt why it's A+ now, the Tank set is. That set is still a great tool for balance teams because it covers such a wide range of threats.

So its kind of irrelevant how well venusaur stacks up against ALL the new megas, because if you are arguing to keep venu in A+ we just need to compare it to the top tier new megas, such as sableye, gallade, metagross, latias, altaria, slobro, diancie, and if we do that it starts to not look so good for venusaur, especially since one of your main points was it helps beat the new fairy megas, but it definitely can not switch into the common diancie set of CM/psyshock/earth power/moonblast, it also cant switch in to sharpedo with rocks up and since venusaur is a more defensive mega it is fair to assume that the situation would be venu switching into rocks on sharpedo(feel free to ignore the sharpedo point, im just a fanboy). So it really doesnt even break even against all megas, and is definitely on the losing side of all the new top tier megas. That combod with metagame shifts that harm venusaur like more talonflame and psychic types like the latis. I think that venusaur honestly deserves to be put in A-.

 

[Hydrium]

Tornadus-Therian: B+ ---> B

Im not a man who likes drastic changes, but Tornadus is just ballsy. First off, it requires Rain support to even abuse its spammable move, plus it needs SR support (but most teams run Lati@s so) and second off, it may have a good ability and shit, but why use this thing if MPigeot just works 10x better. MPigeot only needs Hazard removal and it has basically the same coverage and the same things it kills. unless im missing something Tornadus-T really is only used on Rain, and even then ive never seen him sweep.

Basically the only reason why i want this down is cause of it relies on support and MPigeot kinda does his job better with less support.

Amoongus: B ---> C+

Who even uses this junk. its so bad, the only thing saving it is its ability.
The thing doesnt work on Stall, HO, not even fucking balance. its a ballsy frail POS that doesnt even hit hard and is outclassed by a much better mon, MVenu. With its usage being below 1.000% and being outclassed by MVenu AND the new megas, just demote this.

Beedrill: Loses
Pidgeot: Loses
Slowbro: Wins
Sceptile: Loses
Swampert: Wins
Sableye: Loses
Sharpedo: Wins
Camerupt: Loses
Metagross: Loses
Altaria: Wins
Latias: Loses
Latios: Loses
Lopunny: Loses
Gallade: Loses
Diancie: Wins

I think we need to set a definition up because we always use calcs based off of SR but yet when it comes to a poke needing SR support we always use the excuse everyone runs Lati@s. I know it's convenient to cherry pick what works best for our argument but I just see this happening constantly.

 

[Vxy]

What do you guys think about Scizor moving up to B+? Maybe even A-, but I think that's stretching it. A lot of the new Megas get rekt by Banded Bullet Punch (like OHKO'd or 2HKO'd). Here's a list:

Diancie - OHKO'd
Altaria - OHKO'd if offensive, 2HKO'd if defensive
Sceptile - 2HKO'd
Beedrill - OHKO'd
Glalie - OHKO'd
Gallade - 2HKO'd
Latios - 2HKO'd
Latias - 50% chance to 2HKO (that's with no investment, if it has investment which I'm pretty sure it does, it's a 3HKO)
Pidgeot - 2HKO'd

And then there's also some that hate taking a banded U-turn, like Mega Slowbro (decent chance to 2HKO, but obviously you have to switch to something else after using it). On top of that, there's Latios, who is OHKO'd and Latias, who is 2HKO'd with HP/defense investment. I'm not saying these new Megas are the only reason, because Banded Scizor is a pretty good revenge killer against a lot of things, but a lot of these new Megas take a ton of damage from it. Obviously, Salamence, Metagross, Sableye, Cameupt, etc. can switch in pretty easily, but for the stuff Scizor CAN take out, I think it's worth rising :]

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Amoongus is solid B:
It checks anything that is not grass and cannot OHKO thanks to spore and unless you have a cleric, it is basically dead.
Its ability means it can repeatedly and reliably check/counter what it is supposed to.
Clear smog can prevent a sweep and means that it will never be setup bait even against taunters or with sleep clause active.
It is a super reliable switch against one of most used mons in the meta: Rotom-Wash.
It has reliable recovery in synthesis.

Mega-Venusaur has too much opportunity cost as a defensive mon on stall (they mostly want Mega-sableye/mega-bro) so as a -be it specially or physically- defensive grass you basically need to chose between Amoongus, Celebi, Ferrothorn and Chesnaught all of them covering different threats and can have different roles.
We should stop having the mindset that every pokemon has to be ranked on how well it handles megas. There are 5 other pokemon you need to also handle.

Last but not least, it is useless to appeal to usage as an argument for viability since viability is independent from usage.

Alright first off i honestly dont think Amoongus is a B mon cause ill state some new reasons and some reasons i said.

It doesnt check anything non grass what are you on. I know a panitload of mons that can easily outspeed and OHKO this thing (TFlame MMetagross, MGallade, MPigeot, Lati@s, etc.) and while it does threaten to spore your ass, usually people carry a Grass type, but lets not worry about other team members.

Clear Smog is completely useless due to Amoongus being killed and outsped by most Setup sweepers. Waste of a moveslot imo. Unless amoongus has this priority i didnt know about, sounds like trash.

Uuh Rotom W is one mon, and there are way too many mons that easily threaten to KO it. I understand that Amoongus does more than Rotom W, but still has a hard time in this meta with all the new megas.

Synthesis recovery+ Regenerator is good, cant deny that.

The reason why youre wrong here is that MVenu is that teams that run Amoongus over MVenu is doing something wrong. IMO amoongus is no more than an annoying Regenerator mon that has access to spore, he doesnt hit hard, he sure as hell isnt a threat, and loses the defensive capabilities MVenu once had. Sure, MVenu has opportunity cost with the new megas, but every team fits in MVenu. MVenu is still the stall staple it was in XY, although not as good, but still threatens many new megas. Amoongus ruins momentum, is slow, doesnt hit hard, the only thing it has is Regenerator and Spore. Basically, what we do in Viability Thread is that we demote mons outclassed by other mons down ALOT, ex. Chansey over Blissey. I think C+ is fine for this mon.

Also i didnt completely revolved my argument against new megas, i was giving an example.

 

[Josh Morales]

I really think Mega Absol should be C+/B- now that Play Rough+Knock Off is legal. I mean c'mon, that's STAB on one of the most broken attacking moves in the game and a move with decent power that hits anything that resists Knock Off SE bar Bisharp, Fairies, and Drapion but lol Drapion you'd have to be insane to use that and Bisharp gets bopped by Superpower. The ubiquity of Psychic-types and the rise of Thund-I also really helps it in the Metagame and Magic Bounce will always be one of the best abilities in the game. 115 Speed is also still a very good speed tier despite the speed creep since many of the new Mega Evolutions that have induced are at base 110 Speed and all of the other new Pokemon that are faster can't even reliably switch-in and Mega Absol can also pick off Mega Beedrill and a weakened Mega Sceptile with Sucker Punch.

Mega Absol for C+/B-

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Imo you're not giving Amoonguss enough credit. It's actually much bulkier than you think, mainly by virtue of having stupidly high HP and Regenerator to just hang around for a long time. Spore can definitely be decently useful to cripple something for a bit, and Amoonguss does lose to a lot of common mons (so does Mega Venusaur tbh), it can check Keldeo, Rotom-W, Thundurus, etc because it resists some of their moves and has decently passable bulk. It gets plenty of switch-in opportunities and the threat of Spore and having mild offensive presence isn't shabby for a defensive Pokemon. It does take on a lot of rain mons to a decent degree such as Kabutops, Kingdra, and Mega Swampert, and does a hefty amount to Kabutops and Mega Swampert with Giga Drain. Saying that using Amoonguss over Mega Venusaur means something is wrong with you team makes it seem like you're extremely biased, as Amoonguss can hang around with Regen still and it doesn't take up a Mega Slot like Mega Venusaur does. Mega Venusaur is definitely not a universal fit on any team, at least not like what it was in early XY, and there are a ton of other megas. Amoonguss definitely has good reasons to be used over Mega Venusaur, as Spore is still pretty nice and Regenerator ensures it just doesn't die, plus it has Foul Play and the like. Being much harder to wear down than Mega Venusaur and not taking up the Mega Slot give Amoonguss enough reason to be used. Regarding Chansey vs. Blissey, the reason why Blissey is almost completely outclassed by Chansey is that they are literally the same Pokemon only Chansey is bulkier, and there is no real difference between them.

Admittedly this thing still gets owned by a lot of top mons in the tier right now, such as Mega Salamence, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Talonflame, etc. and kind of just struggles with a few mons right now, so B- would also be realistic for Amoonguss, but I don't think C+ is fitting since Amoonguss definitely has its niches, just that the meta is kinda hostile to it rn and it has decent synergy with quite a few mons. From reading your posts they just seem really biased to me and you seem to only harp on Amoonguss's downsides and not the good things.

 

[Gary]

I'm going to bring up what I think might be a controversial nomination judging by how in the past people were so hesitant having a Swift Swimmer the same rank as Politoed, but I honestly think that Mega Swampert deserves to be bumped from B+ to A-.

In all honesty, I think Mega Swampert is the best thing rain has atm aside from Politoed itself. I mean seriously, it's so good there's no reason NOT to use it, and it has zero competition. Besides, other than maybe Mega Ampharos, what other mega is really worth using over Mega Swampert on rain? It's one of the only Mega evolutions that can take FULL advantage of rain thanks to its ability, typing, and coverage, so why wouldn't you run it? On top of that, Mega Swampert itself makes rain MUCH more viable. After facing it multiple times using standard offense that could normally take on rain before the Mega Swampert era, I honestly found myself easily being overwhelmed by it, regardless of how well my team was prepared for it. It just absolutely rapes offense, like straight up. Honestly what the hell can even switch into the combination of EQ, rain boosted Waterfalls, Ice Punch, and Low Kick/Superpower, which is basically perfect coverage? The best revenge killer in OU, Landorus-T, is a complete sitting duck against it. Ferrothorn, one of the best rain checks in OU, is completely slaughtered by the combination of a Waterfall or EQ + Superpower. It has ONE weakness to the Grass-type, most of which are either too frail to live an Ice Punch or in Ferros case, are covered by its other moves. That leaves Amoonguss, Mega Venu, and Celebi, the former being pretty subpar in the current meta while the latter has no business switching into it and is easily pressured by teammates such as AV Torn-T, and only defensive variants of Mega Venu can switch into EQ. On top of its mere single weakness, it's also VERY bulky for an offensive Pokemon, surpassing that of even Celebi, Jirachi, and Victini. This makes it incredibly difficult to revenge kill, and oftentimes forces offense to sack multiple Pokemon in order to take it out, or to very carefully play around it until rain is stalled out. Also unlike other swimmers, it can't be paralyzed by Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave.

Bulky offense and stall have a much easier time take it on, because they have shit like Slowbro, Sableye, Rotom-W, and Mega Venusuar which can take it on. However, especially in the case of Rotom-W and Sableye, caution must be used, as neither of them enjoy taking rain boosted Waterfalls, while the former can be worn down rather easily. However, the huge amount of problems it gives for common offensive teams is undeniable, and its combination of bulk, power, and coverage makes it one of the most terrifying offensive Pokemon in the tier when given the right support. Obviously it has its share of flaws, such as having a harder time against stall as well as needing Politoed to be fast, however I see it being a staple on rain teams, and potentially making rain even more viable then it already is once people start realizing how amazing it is. It should be in A- with Politoed, because it's so good that it's worth giving up a teamslot for Politoed in order to unlock the true beast that is Swift Swim Mega Swampert, and it makes even Kabutops look like a chump.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Imo you're not giving Amoonguss enough credit. It's actually much bulkier than you think, mainly by virtue of having stupidly high HP and Regenerator to just hang around for a long time. Spore can definitely be decently useful to cripple something for a bit, and Amoonguss does lose to a lot of common mons (so does Mega Venusaur tbh), it can check Keldeo, Rotom-W, Thundurus, etc because it resists some of their moves and has decently passable bulk. It gets plenty of switch-in opportunities and the threat of Spore and having mild offensive presence isn't shabby for a defensive Pokemon. It does take on a lot of rain mons to a decent degree such as Kabutops, Kingdra, and Mega Swampert, and does a hefty amount to Kabutops and Mega Swampert with Giga Drain. Saying that using Amoonguss over Mega Venusaur means something is wrong with you team makes it seem like you're extremely biased, as Amoonguss can hang around with Regen still and it doesn't take up a Mega Slot like Mega Venusaur does. Mega Venusaur is definitely not a universal fit on any team, at least not like what it was in early XY, and there are a ton of other megas. Amoonguss definitely has good reasons to be used over Mega Venusaur, as Spore is still pretty nice and Regenerator ensures it just doesn't die, plus it has Foul Play and the like. Being much harder to wear down than Mega Venusaur and not taking up the Mega Slot give Amoonguss enough reason to be used. Regarding Chansey vs. Blissey, the reason why Blissey is almost completely outclassed by Chansey is that they are literally the same Pokemon only Chansey is bulkier, and there is no real difference between them.

Admittedly this thing still gets owned by a lot of top mons in the tier right now, such as Mega Salamence, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Talonflame, etc. and kind of just struggles with a few mons right now, so B- would also be realistic for Amoonguss, but I don't think C+ is fitting since Amoonguss definitely has its niches, just that the meta is kinda hostile to it rn and it has decent synergy with quite a few mons. From reading your posts they just seem really biased to me and you seem to only harp on Amoonguss's downsides and not the good things.

The reason why im biased is cause im fitting into the crowd, as most of us smogoners like to state our opinions with bias. tbh i totally agree with you that its a B- mon, but i was stating that B is way too much for this little shroom.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

A real negative of mega swampert to remember is that you dont get swift swim until the turn after you mega evolve. Unless you run protect this can leave you in situations where you take damage that kabutops or kingdra wouldn't have had to worry about. This can make it a slight chore to mega evolve vs offense even with its great bulk and typing.

 

[Gary]

A real negative of mega swampert to remember is that you dont get swift swim until the turn after you mega evolve. Unless you run protect this can leave you in situations where you take damage that kabutops or kingdra wouldn't have had to worry about. This can make it a slight chore to mega evolve vs offense even with its great bulk and typing.

I still don't think that's significant enough to keep it from moving up a rank. In most circumstances, when Swampert is sent out freely it's most likely going to be against a favorable matchup that will be forced out or risks being OHKOed the following turn. I mean yes there's gonna be instances where that extra Speed is needed immediately, but I hardly see how this con is comparable to the sheer positives that mega swampy brings once it megas. Its great typing and bulk gives it a lot of opportunities to mega evolve freely without having to worry about taking too much prior damage.

 

[firehusky]

Adding on to what Gary2346 said, mega swampert's great coverage of water / ground / ice, is really good, and given that most of the time you will be sending in swampert in on someone that you force it, like heatran. You obviously won't be sending in swampert on something like mega sceptile or mega venusaur, so yes he does lack some speed the turn he mega evolves, but he gains so much after he mega evolves, that it's normally worth it. Supporting mega swampert being bumped up to A-.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I'm going to bring up what I think might be a controversial nomination judging by how in the past people were so hesitant having a Swift Swimmer the same rank as Politoed, but I honestly think that Mega Swampert deserves to be bumped from B+ to A-.

In all honesty, I think Mega Swampert is the best thing rain has atm aside from Politoed itself. I mean seriously, it's so good there's no reason NOT to use it, and it has zero competition. Besides, other than maybe Mega Ampharos, what other mega is really worth using over Mega Swampert on rain? It's one of the only Mega evolutions that can take FULL advantage of rain thanks to its ability, typing, and coverage, so why wouldn't you run it? On top of that, Mega Swampert itself makes rain MUCH more viable. After facing it multiple times using standard offense that could normally take on rain before the Mega Swampert era, I honestly found myself easily being overwhelmed by it, regardless of how well my team was prepared for it. It just absolutely rapes offense, like straight up. Honestly what the hell can even switch into the combination of EQ, rain boosted Waterfalls, Ice Punch, and Low Kick/Superpower, which is basically perfect coverage? The best revenge killer in OU, Landorus-T, is a complete sitting duck against it. Ferrothorn, one of the best rain checks in OU, is completely slaughtered by the combination of a Waterfall or EQ + Superpower. It has ONE weakness to the Grass-type, most of which are either too frail to live an Ice Punch or in Ferros case, are covered by its other moves. That leaves Amoonguss, Mega Venu, and Celebi, the former being pretty subpar in the current meta while the latter has no business switching into it and is easily pressured by teammates such as AV Torn-T, and only defensive variants of Mega Venu can switch into EQ. On top of its mere single weakness, it's also VERY bulky for an offensive Pokemon, surpassing that of even Celebi, Jirachi, and Victini. This makes it incredibly difficult to revenge kill, and oftentimes forces offense to sack multiple Pokemon in order to take it out, or to very carefully play around it until rain is stalled out. Also unlike other swimmers, it can't be paralyzed by Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave.

Bulky offense and stall have a much easier time take it on, because they have shit like Slowbro, Sableye, Rotom-W, and Mega Venusuar which can take it on. However, especially in the case of Rotom-W and Sableye, caution must be used, as neither of them enjoy taking rain boosted Waterfalls, while the former can be worn down rather easily. However, the huge amount of problems it gives for common offensive teams is undeniable, and its combination of bulk, power, and coverage makes it one of the most terrifying offensive Pokemon in the tier when given the right support. Obviously it has its share of flaws, such as having a harder time against stall as well as needing Politoed to be fast, however I see it being a staple on rain teams, and potentially making rain even more viable then it already is once people start realizing how amazing it is. It should be in A- with Politoed, because it's so good that it's worth giving up a teamslot for Politoed in order to unlock the true beast that is Swift Swim Mega Swampert, and it makes even Kabutops look like a chump.

The only things is by using MegaSwampert you can't use MegaCross.
Also beating Ferro is not that easy: 252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-226 (54.5 - 64.2%)
not necessarily guranteed.

Also Chestnaught, MegaSlowbro, and and celebi also problems that megacross can help remedy. Basically rain can be good vs offense with megaswampert or stall with megaCross.

So not like mega swampert is the only mega for rain.

 

[firehusky]

However, mega swampert can make wayyyyy more use of rain than mega heracross. Swift swim gives it +2 speed and boosts its waterfall. Both are great megas, but mega swampert makes more use of rain than mega heracross. Mega heracross hits a lot harder, however. Not trying to say one or the other is better, just stating some facts.
Also no one runs max max ferrothorn, here is the correct spread:
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Easy 2HKO

 

[Worthlessnoob]

However, mega swampert can make wayyyyy more use of rain than mega heracross. Swift swim gives it +2 speed and boosts its waterfall. Both are great megas, but mega swampert makes more use of rain than mega heracross. Mega heracross hits a lot harder, however. Not trying to say one or the other is better, just stating some facts.
Also no one runs max max ferrothorn, here is the correct spread:
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Easy 2HKO

MegaCross is used for busting TTar's head open which is a huge problem to rain as it sets up opposing weather.

Anyway, Swampert probably deserves B+ considering Seismitoad was ranked just for Swift Swim plus an electric immunity. Swampert is basically a physical version of that except actually decent.

Edit: firehusky I'm not adamant about my opinion on Swampert's ranking because I do like it as a rain mon, but there are many problems on it I haven't mentioned that should be considered like how it can't outspeed +1 neutral Spe Mence unlike Kingdra and Kabu which give it competition.

 

[firehusky]

Mega swampert can also bust open ttar's head too...
Also, swampert does not deserve B+, because it has way better stats than seismitoad, and is more bulkier. Also, swampert has arguably better coverage, and isn't completely dead weight outside of rain.