Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Remember when many was claiming that Greninja had 4MSS? The post that you has made about Haxorus shows that using Taunt on Haxorus causes a serious and real 4MSS.

Let's see the set:
Swords Dance/Dragon Dance
-Taunt
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Poison Jab

This would be set and you'll start noticing the heavy 4MSS there.
Swords Dance/Dragon Dance is not a case of 4MSS. Haxorus could use both moves and abuse them.
Outrage/Dragon Claw doesn't cause a move debate. Outrage is supposedly better but getting locked in sucks and having to switch out (or a 50% risk of getting confusion damage) is no good. ut I prefer Outrage over Dragon Claw because if Haxorus wants to do something, it's power.
Earthquake or Poison Jab. Here it's the big 4MSS: If you don't have Poison Jab, you can't defeat Fairies. However, Dragon move/Poison Jab is a bad idea because you would get walled by many Steel types in the tier (which is never a good thing). No STAB Earthquake doesn't hit Fairies enough. And if you lack Taunt, you aren't a stallbreaker anymore.

I don't think its 4MSS is as bad as you make it out to be. Outrage and Dragon Claw basically do the same thing: give it a strong STAB attack. Yes, they have their ups and downs, but does anyone ever say that Mega Charizard X has 4MSS because it wants Dragon Claw AND Outrage? I really doubt it since I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing that it loses to without it is Quagsire (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In addition, the use of Swords Dance and Dragon Dance I think comes down far more to whether you need him as a wallbreaker / Stallbreaker or a sweeper / Stallbreaker, which I'd lean way more towards SD simply because we have so many better Dragon Dancers in the tier and so you have a better shot against Mega Sableye, one of the biggest threats in the tier. The only thing where 4MSS would be particularly bad is choosing a second coverage move since, as you pointed out, will leave it walled by a large portion of the meta regardless of whatever you choose

Now, does it have 4MSS? Yes, it does. Is it severe? Severe enough to keep it in the C's yes, but I don't think it's so severe that it outweighs the arguably now very useful niche of Mold Breaker + Taunt users.

 

[Albacore]

Now that Serperior is released, I suggest we put it in B rank for the time being, with possibility of it rising to B+. Having used it I can confirm that it is legitimately good, and very unique in what it does, but for all intents and purposes, it's a late game cleaner/wallbreaker.

Now, Serperior has 2 big selling points : punching massive holes into Stall and being able to revenge kill stuff while setting up.

Against defensive teams, this thing is kind of a monster, all the support it really needs is Heatran removal and it's not like Heatran is hard to lure or wear down, otherwise it just spams leaf storm and not even Chansey stops it (though you probably want Chansey weakened before you attempt to sweep with it).

Against offensive teams, its speed enables it to outpace a large portion of the metagame, and if it's able to come in for free against something like Keldeo and nothing on the opposing team outspeeds it, it's pretty much over, even Metagross is KO'd by the combination of Leaf Storm and +2 HP Fire. The fact that it launches its most powerful STAB while attacking makes counterplay pretty much impossible, you can't really sack anything to it. There are a few common Pokemon on Offense that can switch into Leaf Storm and KO it back, namely Heatran, Talonflame, Pinsir, Bisharp and Dragonite, however the latter two need it to be weakened to revenge it. Otherwise, it will pretty much get a kill if it comes in on something that gets KO'd by Leaf Storm.

It also offers quite a bit of defensive utility, its bulk, while not great, it a least decent enough, and it can take advantage advantage of Rotom-W and Mega-Slowbro but also Water and Ground types in general. It can also take on Sableye decently, in fact it's a lot like Manaphy in that it breaks Stall just by boosting very rapidly to insane levels but is somewhat lacking in immediate power, except it trades bulk and pseudo-status immunity for speed and a far easier time setting up.

It definitely has flaws : the low PP of Leaf Storm is a big problem, it gets worn down a ton by Status and Life Orb recoil, it's easily checked by Talonflame and revenge killed by Greninja as well as Scarf Landorus-T is weakened, and it really hates being forced out, however its speed enables it to pull off late-game cleans very consistently and it can threaten offensive and defensive teams alike, even if it does need some support to be effective.

Replay of Serp vs stall : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-200834898

I'll try to find a replay of Serp vs Offense, the best one i have so far is vs offense with a random Chansey on it which doesn't really show what Serp is capable of vs a comptetent team handled by a competent player. But as you can see, Serp is capable of ripping through like, 4 Pokemon per match once random stuff is weakened. So yeah, this thing is scary and definitely deserving of at least B for me.

 

[Karxrida]

Now that Serperior is released, I suggest we put it in B rank for the time being, with possibility of it rising to B+. Having used it I can confirm that it is legitimately good, and very unique in what it does, but for all intents and purposes, it's a late game cleaner/hole-puncher.

Now, Serperior has 2 selling points : punching massive holes into Stall and being able to revenge kill stuff while setting up.

Against defensive teams, this thing is kind of a monster, all the support it really needs is Heatran removal and it's not like Heatran is hard to lure or wear down, otherwise it just spams leaf storm and not even Chansey stops it (though you probably want Chansey weakened before you attempt to sweep with it).

Against offensive teams, its speed enables it to outspeed a large portion of the metagame, and if it's able to come in for free against something like Keldeo and nothing on the opposing team outspeeds it, it's pretty much over, even Metagross is KO'd by the combination of Leaf Storm and +2 HP Fire. The fact that it launches its most powerful STAB while attacking makes counterplay pretty much impossible, you can't really sack anything to it, offense needs to either stop it from coming in at all or revenge kil it unless it runs Heatran.

It also offers quite a bit of defensive utility, its bulk, while not great, it a least decent enough, and it can take advantage advantage of Rotom-W and Mega-Slowbro but also Water and Ground types in general. It can also take on Sableye decently, in fact it's a lot like Manaphy in that it breaks Stall just by boosting very rapidly to insane levels but is somewhat lacking, except it trades bulk and pseudo-status immunity for speed and a far easier time setting up.

It definitely has flaws : the low PP of Leaf Storm is a big problem, it gets won down really easy by Status and Life Orb recoil, it's checked very easily by the common Talonflame and revenge killed by Scarf Landorus and Greninja, and it really hates being forced out, however its speed enables it to pull off late-game cleans very consistently and it can threaten offensive and defensive teams alike, even if it does need some support to be effective.

Replay of Serp vs stall : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-200834898

Replay of Serp vs offense with a chansey I guess? I'll try to find a better replay of what serp is capable of vs HO : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-200854103

As you can see, Serp is capable of like, 4 kills per match once random stuff is weakened. So yeah, this thing is scary and definitely deserving of at least B for me

You don't even need support to get rid of Heatran; HP Ground will OHKO after Leaf Storm damage unless it has Protect to stall for Lefties, while you can just run Knock Off to lure in Ferrothorn/Skarmory and remove their Shed Shell and fuck Chansey. Watch out for Scarf Heatran though.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Nominating Gothitelle for A- Rank

Let me just say that in my honest opinion, Gothitelle is the best pokemon in the tier due to shadow tag. Shadow Tag allows it to not only beat slower playstyles, it outright invalidates them. Bulky Offense, Stall, and Balance all suffer at the hands of Goth. While Goth does not generally hit hard, it can hit what it needs to hit hard enough. Goth easily snares the kills it needs to get, with a simple set of Psychic/Psyshock, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Trick. Basically, almost all slower pokemon are crippled by Goth's very presence. Goth also forces players to play more cautiously. You must play safer with your walls against wallbreakers, as if you heal they are either tricked or assassinated. No other pokemonin the tier puts that much pressure on slower playstyles. While Goth might be dead weight against Hyper Offense, leading to it to be very match up reliant, Goth still causes massive issues for most of the tier, and needs to move up.

Supporting Mega Sableye for S Rank and Mega Lopunny for S Rank
These megas define stall and offense respectively, and are both amazing.

 

[theV8man]

Nominating Gothitelle for A- Rank

Let me just say that in my honest opinion, Gothitelle is the best pokemon in the tier due to shadow tag. Shadow Tag allows it to not only beat slower playstyles, it outright invalidates them. Bulky Offense, Stall, and Balance all suffer at the hands of Goth. While Goth does not generally hit hard, it can hit what it needs to hit hard enough. Goth easily snares the kills it needs to get, with a simple set of Psychic/Psyshock, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Trick. Basically, almost all slower pokemon are crippled by Goth's very presence. Goth also forces players to play more cautiously. You must play safer with your walls against wallbreakers, as if you heal they are either tricked or assassinated. No other pokemonin the tier puts that much pressure on slower playstyles. While Goth might be dead weight against Hyper Offense, leading to it to be very match up reliant, Goth still causes massive issues for most of the tier, and needs to move up.

Supporting Mega Sableye for S Rank and Mega Lopunny for S Rank
These megas define stall and offense respectively, and are both amazing.

Gothitelle is no Mega Gengar. Against pretty much any offense team it's a complete deadweight that cannot switch in or check anything due to bad bulk/typing. The only thing I can imagine it trapping is an Azumarill at low health, and even you're losing momentum to an offense team (not good). Stall also has some countermeasures against goth, like running Shed Shell, while balance is usually offensive enough to not feel threatened. There's also the fact that Taunt can be used to ruin certain sets. Overall, it has a niche, but its niche is only useful against a certain, more uncommon playstyle, and it is outclassed by Wobuffet when it comes to facing offense.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I don't think its 4MSS is as bad as you make it out to be. Outrage and Dragon Claw basically do the same thing: give it a strong STAB attack. Yes, they have their ups and downs, but does anyone ever say that Mega Charizard X has 4MSS because it wants Dragon Claw AND Outrage? I really doubt it since I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing that it loses to without it is Quagsire (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In addition, the use of Swords Dance and Dragon Dance I think comes down far more to whether you need him as a wallbreaker / Stallbreaker or a sweeper / Stallbreaker, which I'd lean way more towards SD simply because we have so many better Dragon Dancers in the tier and so you have a better shot against Mega Sableye, one of the biggest threats in the tier. The only thing where 4MSS would be particularly bad is choosing a second coverage move since, as you pointed out, will leave it walled by a large portion of the meta regardless of whatever you choose

Now, does it have 4MSS? Yes, it does. Is it severe? Severe enough to keep it in the C's yes, but I don't think it's so severe that it outweighs the arguably now very useful niche of Mold Breaker + Taunt users.

No one was arguing about running both Outrage AND Dragon Claw, but running a stab on an boosting set is pretty much mandatory, running Poison Jab to smack fairy switch-ins kinda is too, if you run SD and Taunt along with this it leaves you pretty much walled by any steel type, if you forego Poison Jab for EQ you're walled by most fairies (besides non-magnet rise Klefki) so yes, he does have rather severe 4mss, not to the point where he can't function, but you still have a fairly large amount of checks/counters regardless of what moves you settle for (which is why it shouldn't be moving up imo).

 

[blinkie]

Nominating Gothitelle for A- Rank

Let me just say that in my honest opinion, Gothitelle is the best pokemon in the tier due to shadow tag. Shadow Tag allows it to not only beat slower playstyles, it outright invalidates them. Bulky Offense, Stall, and Balance all suffer at the hands of Goth. While Goth does not generally hit hard, it can hit what it needs to hit hard enough. Goth easily snares the kills it needs to get, with a simple set of Psychic/Psyshock, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Trick. Basically, almost all slower pokemon are crippled by Goth's very presence. Goth also forces players to play more cautiously. You must play safer with your walls against wallbreakers, as if you heal they are either tricked or assassinated. No other pokemonin the tier puts that much pressure on slower playstyles. While Goth might be dead weight against Hyper Offense, leading to it to be very match up reliant, Goth still causes massive issues for most of the tier, and needs to move up.

Supporting Mega Sableye for S Rank and Mega Lopunny for S Rank
These megas define stall and offense respectively, and are both amazing.

Gothitelle isn't even good anymore its useless against offense and sometimes balanced as I've learned the hard way and it also can't even beat stall anymore because you said Mega Sableye for S rank lol theres like a mon on every stall team that basically says FU to Goth. Not to mention Mega Slowbro which can actually beat Goth if it switches in on CM. There are a lot of better Stallbreakers out there now Manaphy usage is like going up like crazy, MegaDoom also Serperior will start giving it competition too. I mean it was OK in late XY but now pure stall still has offensive presence that can beat Gothitelle.

 

[AM]

A- is too high for Gothitelle but it's definitely not bad by any means and is the bane of so many defensive cores even to this day. It definitely hasn't got worse if anything it's subjectively better due to its ability to trap and eliminate checks and counters for very dangerous threats.

 

[Pooch13]

No one was arguing about running both Outrage AND Dragon Claw, but running a stab on an boosting set is pretty much mandatory, running Poison Jab to smack fairy switch-ins kinda is too, if you run SD and Taunt along with this it leaves you pretty much walled by any steel type, if you forego Poison Jab for EQ you're walled by most fairies (besides non-magnet rise Klefki) so yes, he does have rather severe 4mss, not to the point where he can't function, but you still have a fairly large amount of checks/counters regardless of what moves you settle for (which is why it shouldn't be moving up imo).

I completely agree. Its not like its 4mss is that it needs to run 8/9 moves but it needs an extra slot, just one. But tbh SD, taunt, Dragon stab and poison/EQ is good enough as you can pair it up with meta gross or heathran for fairies or magnezone for bulky steel types etc. That SD/taunt set seems powerful tbh and its speed is mediocre so you dont need to worry about running jolly over adamant most of the time.

Also the DD /eq/pjab/outrage set is incredibly good from what ive experienced and its a late game power house. Double dance is scary as hell too which no other dragon can pull of iirc and dragon typing isnt actually awful since its average bulk and only x2 weaknesses let him live SE attacks.

Tbh th emost dangerous part about facing Haxorus is that you dont know which set its running and you can get surprised quite easily since its 2/3 sets work very very differently, hell you could even run CB or LO for immediate extra power and 2hko or1hko on a predicted switch.

Some calcs to show how the different sets handle different checks/counters

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 368-434 (93.4 - 110.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

To sum it up, its good enough to be considered a threat but you definitely need team support , and a rather specific one which limits your teambuilding a bit. C+ at best.

 

[Lord Wallace]

As an avid user of Gothitelle I'm pretty comfortable with it staying at B, as long as it doesn't drop any further.

 

[Machi]

Iron Head / CC / Volt Switch / ???

Seems like a decent mon but I should reiterate that I've only been theorymonning here and it's hard for me to gauge just how often he actually has a chance to switch in and voltturn out for free in a real battle. Does he fullfill any roles or niches better than a standard rotom/lando/scizor does?

I don't mean to suggest any ranking changes here, I'm just kinda spilling my thoughts and hoping someone else will pick up the discussion, because I am very interested in this 'mon but I've never used it outside of randbats lol.

I just use an Iron Head/CC/Taunt/SR set nothing fancy, I use expert belt for the power to OHKO most Heatran and Ferro variants.

As for what he switches into primarily Bisharp or Knock off as stated, which is a big enough deal - they are both prolific enough. He also switches into poison aimed at your fairy types if that is a thing for you as well as incoming steel attacks, like gyro from Ferrothorn. Or rock attacks aimed at your Talonflame etc. Otherwise, he has a fairly respectable defensive capability to come in on something and get a taunt/SR off. Just because he can't SR off MSable doesn't invalidate him as he still has enough opportunities with other teams (and he does catch some people off), one of his more interesting options is actually being able to take on MSable thanks to the +1 boost he gains from knock off/Foul play and the flinch rate of Iron head - or baiting a WoW after the +1 boost.

 

[bb skarm]

I want dragalge to go to c+. i have plenty experience with this thing to vouch that it is the end-all be-all special wallbreaker, and it is so fucking effective with Choice Specs it's hard to describe. Adaptability Draco Meteor is fucking strong, stronger than almost any attack in the entire game, tying with Victini's Vcreate (if I calced correctly), and not even fairy-types can switch in because Sludge Bomb OHKOes any relevant one.

not only does thing OHKO literally anything that isn't a chansey or resist (and even then draco does 30%, which is sorta cool because most special attackers don't do ding), but it also has a very overlooked defensive typing and sweet bulk that literally no one takes advantage of. This thing resists U-turn and Volt Switch, is immune to toxic, resists 7 types, 3 of them being the ever-so common Water-, Fire-, and Grass-type. With 90 / 123 defenses, dragalge can easily pivot into a ridiculous amount of attacks, and fire off literal NUKES.

If you thought nothing can switch into Zard Y, then Dragalge is here to prove you wrong;

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 304-358 (68.4 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 250-296 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It is such an amazing wallbreaker, and I'd say even more effective than Zard Y just because of its defensive typing

put this thing in c+

 

[boltsandbombers]

Totally agreeing with Dragalge moving up for all the reasons above, but also I'd like to point out that with those awesome set of resistances you mentioned, it functions as a very effective Keldeo check - which is generally necessary on every team.

Edit: @ below - yeah, I think it deserves C+ at the very least, and B- wouldn't be too unreasonable.

 

[TheTraininator]

I honestly think Dragalge should be somewhere in the B ranks imo. It's not hard to support at all, hits crazy hard, and has a solid enough typing and special bulk that it can find plenty of times to switch in. Its pros outweigh its cons, and for that reason I don't really see it as a C rank Pokemon.

 

[Adamantx]

I'm a little skeptical about dragalge moving to the b ranks. On one hand, its adaptability boosted STABS are disgustingly powerful, and with focus blast and hp fire/scald/hydro/shadow ball, you have some nice options to nail the few things that can stomach Dragalge's STABs. It also has some real nice resists and alright bulk to give him opportunities to come in and nuke something on some pretty common/threatening pokemon such as Rotom-w, Charizard-Y (barring dragon pulse), Mega-Venusaur, Keldeo, and more.
On the other, being locked into either stab has big downsides that can be seriously exploited by your opponent, leading to free turns for Clefable, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Heatran, M-Metagross, etc, none of which you want to give free turns to. Its typing defensively is also a double edged sword, while yes it gives it a lot of nice resists, it also makes it weak to some pretty common types aswell, namely ground, ice, psychic, and dragon. It also is very slow, so it gets outsped by a lot of offensive pokemon who can force it out, and even has trouble outspeeding some defensive pokemon without significant investment, which detracts from its bulk. It would require a lot of support and prediction to use effectively, but it is a terrifying nuke if it comes in safely, so I think it should be in C+.

 

[Tarontos]

Serperior(discount mega sceptile) for B-
(it is legal in ou now- but not in the builder)
pros
contrary+leaf Storm:this is the main reason to use this
untauntable nasty-plot boost
it kills bulky water types most notably rotom-w and mega-bro
it is capable of boosting fast enough to kill mega sabelye
it can boost on any thing that doesn't have sap sipper
has decent bulk
113 speed isn't bad and allows it to work as an excellent late game cleaner
mono grass gives it descent resistances and an imunity to leach seed spore
doesn't take a mega slot--virtualy the only reason to use this over mega sceptile even with contrary.
glare--since it has nothing for coverage it can paralyze certain switchins(most notably mega sceptile, but also ground types even if none of them can take a leaf storm)
it has giga-drain for stab boosted recovery.

cons
it dies to greninja
Talonflame+Mega-Pinsir exist
grass is atrocious offensively for stab
low initial power (90 SpA is pitifull by ou standard)
crap for coverage
no priority
it is walled by several common things like heatran, and mega-venu, scizor, ferothorn(if it lacks hp-fire)
no versatility
losses the ability to boost out side of leaf-storm

 

[TheTraininator]

I'm a little skeptical about dragalge moving to the b ranks. On one hand, its adaptability boosted STABS are disgustingly powerful, and with focus blast and hp fire/scald/hydro/shadow ball, you have some nice options to nail the few things that can stomach Dragalge's STABs. It also has some real nice resists and alright bulk to give him opportunities to come in and nuke something on some pretty common/threatening pokemon such as Rotom-w, Charizard-Y (barring dragon pulse), Mega-Venusaur, Keldeo, and more.
On the other, being locked into either stab has big downsides that can be seriously exploited by your opponent, leading to free turns for Clefable, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Heatran, M-Metagross, etc, none of which you want to give free turns to. Its typing defensively is also a double edged sword, while yes it gives it a lot of nice resists, it also makes it weak to some pretty common types aswell, namely ground, ice, psychic, and dragon. It also is very slow, so it gets outsped by a lot of offensive pokemon who can force it out, and even has trouble outspeeding some defensive pokemon without significant investment, which detracts from its bulk. It would require a lot of support and prediction to use effectively, but it is a terrifying nuke if it comes in safely, so I think it should be in C+.

Choice Specs may be the best set, but it isn't the only set. If you run Toxic/Draco Plate, you can bluff a Specs and then switch moves afterwards. Plus, Dragalge's support movepool is not half bad either. It's a respectable Toxic Spikes user, possesses a surprisingly strong Dragon Tail thanks to Adaptability partially making up for its low Attack stat, and even knows the move Haze, (which can remove its own Special Attack drops from Draco btw.) And again, I don't find it needs very much support at all as it can work on a variety of team archetypes and easily find a chance to switch in. Slowness is an issue, but Dragalge is primarily a wallbreaker, and should only be aiming to outspeed slower threats like Azumarill. B- seems like a fine rank for it as far as I am concerned, and may even be a little conservative.

 

[blinkie]

For a Dragon-type, being able to switch in on stuff like Moonblast is a really good thing. Not to mention that it actually beats almost all fairies 1v1 with Poison STAB. Losing to MGard kinda holds you back, but with a lot of teams spamming Fairies to answer Mega Sableye it definitely deserves B- rank at worst. I'm sure Dragalge could probably find room for Sub on a non Specs set so it can punish people trying to play around the immunities. Not even Chansey is a hard counter because this thing learns Gunk Shot. Steels aren't really a problem anymore if you run Magnezone with it and then run Focus Blast for Heatran. Not to mention that Skarm and Dragalge have almost perfect synergy, with Skarm walling physical attackers, especially dragons, and Dragalge taking fire- or electric-type moves. Ice Beam can be a problem though.

Dragalge definitely fits the description IMO for B rank, as it does require team support and has some flaws, such as trash speed and bad physical bulk. However it also has some positive traits such as a stronk nuke and a useful defensive typing for checking a lot of threats.

 

[alexwolf]

Taking a break from Smogon so TRC will take over and create a new thread asap. See you around guys!