What does magic coat even do, you do realize that defog clears screen and hazards on both sides of the field right?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: UU Stage 1 - Changes
- Thread starter Calloflochie
- Start date
- Status
From Bulbapedia: Defog now clears away Safeguard, Mist, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock and Sticky Web present on both sides of the field. It will still only clear away Light Screen and Reflect from the target's side of the field, however.
Holy fucking shit Sableye's gone. Oh, today is a good day.
On a different note, Salamence will be missed for three months, but given that Salamencite was just banned, I have absolutely no doubt he will be dropping back to UU come March. Ain't that a stinker?
EDIT: Oh. Nevermind, then.
On a different note, Salamence will be missed for three months, but given that Salamencite was just banned, I have absolutely no doubt he will be dropping back to UU come March. Ain't that a stinker?
EDIT: Oh. Nevermind, then.
Due to showdown being down for a while and ORAS coming out, there will be another tier shift in January, so he will come back to us then :) http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-december-2014.3523339/
Yeah the screens will not get removed from Klefki's side if it uses Magic Bounce on a Defog.
Anyway, spinning (and Defogging) got a whole lot easier now that Sableye is gone. Spikestacking teams definitely took a hit, and Froslass offense can't really be used as effectively because of the ease of hazard clearing. Some spinblockers like Doublade, Chandelure, and Spiritomb simply don't have the longevity/bulk to spinblock like Sableye did, and others like Jellicent, Trevenant, and Cofagrigus don't fit on these teams at all.
I want to echo the fact that Klefki is so insanely good at its job and I would really like to see it go. The number of options it has to support itself and its teammates is pretty staggering (they've all been listed in this thread by other people so I won't bother to list them again). In particular, Prankster Thunder Wave is pretty aids and like koko said it just promotes careless playing. Also in particular, it's ridiculously easy to pair with Mega Swampert, which easily switches in on and Mega Evolves against the things that Klefki tends to draw in (Fires, Electrics, bulky Grounds). Klefki, in return, supports Swampert heavily with Prankster Damp Rock Rain Dance, Spikes, and in some cases para support. A Mega Swampert with 6-7 turns of rain can easily be gg against opposing offensive teams. All in all, Klefki is just a little bit too effective at its job given its typing, movepool, and the amount of support it has the ability to offer.
Volcarona is still incredibly broken. It's too easy to set up a Quiver Dance (or more tha none), and once it has, it may very well be gg right there for certain teams. Staraptor is a little bit more manageable thanks to a generally faster tier as well as new checks like (Mega-)Diancie and Bronzong. Togekiss is also pretty broken; while it's slightly more manageable on its own (again, Diancie and Bronzong are some cool new checks) the ability to Baton Pass boosts to something like Mega Sceptile, Pidgeot, or even like Agility Altaria is pretty stupid. All in all, not much has changed for Togekiss so I think overall it should go back to BL.
This is a metagame being dominated by Fairies now with the additions of Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Togekiss , Klefki, Whimsicott and even CM Florges. The trends I've seen on the ladder definitely reflect that. Most notably, Scarf Hydreigon has taken an enormous decline as it's now set up on by some of the biggest threats in the tier. Also, Whimsicott is pretty much now delegated to a support role because its offensive Infiltrator set is arguably outclassed by Mega Altaria's special set. Healing Wish is a fantastic option for offensive teams to have with all the setup sweepers available. These are just a couple small trends I've noticed.
Anyway, spinning (and Defogging) got a whole lot easier now that Sableye is gone. Spikestacking teams definitely took a hit, and Froslass offense can't really be used as effectively because of the ease of hazard clearing. Some spinblockers like Doublade, Chandelure, and Spiritomb simply don't have the longevity/bulk to spinblock like Sableye did, and others like Jellicent, Trevenant, and Cofagrigus don't fit on these teams at all.
I want to echo the fact that Klefki is so insanely good at its job and I would really like to see it go. The number of options it has to support itself and its teammates is pretty staggering (they've all been listed in this thread by other people so I won't bother to list them again). In particular, Prankster Thunder Wave is pretty aids and like koko said it just promotes careless playing. Also in particular, it's ridiculously easy to pair with Mega Swampert, which easily switches in on and Mega Evolves against the things that Klefki tends to draw in (Fires, Electrics, bulky Grounds). Klefki, in return, supports Swampert heavily with Prankster Damp Rock Rain Dance, Spikes, and in some cases para support. A Mega Swampert with 6-7 turns of rain can easily be gg against opposing offensive teams. All in all, Klefki is just a little bit too effective at its job given its typing, movepool, and the amount of support it has the ability to offer.
Volcarona is still incredibly broken. It's too easy to set up a Quiver Dance (or more tha none), and once it has, it may very well be gg right there for certain teams. Staraptor is a little bit more manageable thanks to a generally faster tier as well as new checks like (Mega-)Diancie and Bronzong. Togekiss is also pretty broken; while it's slightly more manageable on its own (again, Diancie and Bronzong are some cool new checks) the ability to Baton Pass boosts to something like Mega Sceptile, Pidgeot, or even like Agility Altaria is pretty stupid. All in all, not much has changed for Togekiss so I think overall it should go back to BL.
This is a metagame being dominated by Fairies now with the additions of Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Togekiss , Klefki, Whimsicott and even CM Florges. The trends I've seen on the ladder definitely reflect that. Most notably, Scarf Hydreigon has taken an enormous decline as it's now set up on by some of the biggest threats in the tier. Also, Whimsicott is pretty much now delegated to a support role because its offensive Infiltrator set is arguably outclassed by Mega Altaria's special set. Healing Wish is a fantastic option for offensive teams to have with all the setup sweepers available. These are just a couple small trends I've noticed.
I'm happy to see Sableye go since I hate that little bastard. Having one less spinblocker in the tier will be nice once Boobookeys leaves and Defog becomes less useful. Losing Metagross isn't a big deal since it's mostly dead weight already. Losing the newly regained Mence is going to kill me since I've loved using it as a defensive Defogger. Looks like the quickban should have been quicker, but I'll live.
I'd like to discuss some of the recent tier changes that happened and some that didn't :
Sableye - as much as it was annoying to face, it was as effective to use and I think it was a welcomed, balanced tool to see in the tier and I'm unhappy to see it leave. I hope somehow it will come back, if only in it's own form and not the mega but oh well... Fairies and Fire types have one less utility in their arsenal but the former not really since fairy offense is dominating the tier right now.
Mence - well, this is stupid. MegaMence was banned and the rising of the mence, based solely on his now banned mega form is dumb but oh well... Mawile happened so I guess we will wait.
Mawile - Speaking of which, I am for one excited and hope to use this fantastic defensive typing (accompanied by Intimidate) and arsenal of supportive move-set, especially once it will be unique when(if) Klefki will be send upwards to wait it's 2nd phase of retesting.
Metagross - nothing interesting much to say, was expected. The mega was already quickbanned here as it was obviously too broken and the regular was kinda mediocre, even though offensive steel became much better but the tier is able to handle itself with two other very viable options sharing the same type in Jirachi and Zong.
Altaria+Beedrill - the only two out of the bunch to receive enough usage to undoubtedly jump into the UU tier. Altaria, with all the hype it got and the omnipresent appearance, it was no surprise and probably Diancie received enough usage as well but it was already UU so yeah... Fairy power but Bee is surprising. I guess just as the fairies are so common, speedy Poison became that much better to combat and HO are really milking this deadly u-turner.
Mdoom + Kingdra - this two seemed like a pair to me and the only reason only the former dropped is because, with the hype of so many overwhelming new mega's it got overshadowed but it was already easily foretold by the stats of recent months that this two would drop and I'm unhappy for Kingdra to remain so misplaced as it's really not good in current UU. Other close to drop UU 'mons but RU will have to wait three more months for the chance, imo, include - Porygon2, Trevenant, Milotic, Scrafty, Cloyster and it's a shame. Speaking of which Ru-Uu relation tier changes :
Gligar/Aloma/Whimsi - the three that should have earned their respect to be one among the UU 'mons. With the current competition for the fairy slot with Altaria, Diancie, CM Florges - Whimsi is really struggling. With the addition of Staraptor, somewhat overshadowing Darmanitan, maybe Aloma's viablity is hindered. I'm not sure about Gligar though but hey, UU can still use these three at least...
Mandibuzz/Sylveon - Yeah... the community expected and wished for more drops but all that will have to wait for another time and I guess the tier will deal with just one thing at a time. For now it's the settlement of the new megas and only afterwards will be new tier changed. Those two could have been sweet though...
edit : Also, on the bright side (I guess) we don't lose Jirachi/Raikou/Azelf to Ou...
Sableye - as much as it was annoying to face, it was as effective to use and I think it was a welcomed, balanced tool to see in the tier and I'm unhappy to see it leave. I hope somehow it will come back, if only in it's own form and not the mega but oh well... Fairies and Fire types have one less utility in their arsenal but the former not really since fairy offense is dominating the tier right now.
Mence - well, this is stupid. MegaMence was banned and the rising of the mence, based solely on his now banned mega form is dumb but oh well... Mawile happened so I guess we will wait.
Mawile - Speaking of which, I am for one excited and hope to use this fantastic defensive typing (accompanied by Intimidate) and arsenal of supportive move-set, especially once it will be unique when(if) Klefki will be send upwards to wait it's 2nd phase of retesting.
Metagross - nothing interesting much to say, was expected. The mega was already quickbanned here as it was obviously too broken and the regular was kinda mediocre, even though offensive steel became much better but the tier is able to handle itself with two other very viable options sharing the same type in Jirachi and Zong.
Altaria+Beedrill - the only two out of the bunch to receive enough usage to undoubtedly jump into the UU tier. Altaria, with all the hype it got and the omnipresent appearance, it was no surprise and probably Diancie received enough usage as well but it was already UU so yeah... Fairy power but Bee is surprising. I guess just as the fairies are so common, speedy Poison became that much better to combat and HO are really milking this deadly u-turner.
Mdoom + Kingdra - this two seemed like a pair to me and the only reason only the former dropped is because, with the hype of so many overwhelming new mega's it got overshadowed but it was already easily foretold by the stats of recent months that this two would drop and I'm unhappy for Kingdra to remain so misplaced as it's really not good in current UU. Other close to drop UU 'mons but RU will have to wait three more months for the chance, imo, include - Porygon2, Trevenant, Milotic, Scrafty, Cloyster and it's a shame. Speaking of which Ru-Uu relation tier changes :
Gligar/Aloma/Whimsi - the three that should have earned their respect to be one among the UU 'mons. With the current competition for the fairy slot with Altaria, Diancie, CM Florges - Whimsi is really struggling. With the addition of Staraptor, somewhat overshadowing Darmanitan, maybe Aloma's viablity is hindered. I'm not sure about Gligar though but hey, UU can still use these three at least...
Mandibuzz/Sylveon - Yeah... the community expected and wished for more drops but all that will have to wait for another time and I guess the tier will deal with just one thing at a time. For now it's the settlement of the new megas and only afterwards will be new tier changed. Those two could have been sweet though...
edit : Also, on the bright side (I guess) we don't lose Jirachi/Raikou/Azelf to Ou...
Well this usage drop/raise was based off a much higher benchmark than the regular 3.41%. The drops coming in a month will be back to the normal system, and that is when we will most likely get the result of mons such as rachi, whimsi, alomomola, raikou, azelf, and so on.
Also, when youre talking about RU mons that have earned their spot in uu you didnt even mention bronzong lmao
Well he is more or less a support suspect and the thing is Klefki is pretty much a ticking time bomb. Yes, it does depend to a good degree that there are actually good mons to support, which was largely absent during his initial tenure, but since UU has changed enough with more drops of actually better setup sweepers his support becomes more invaluable and very noticeable. The problem with this is do we keep Klefki banned until UU loses setup sweepers or do we outright just ban what tends to push certain sweepers over the edge? I'd say the latter is more preferable as it can easily be a recurring problem in the future. The initial foresight of Limitless actually proved true here, I know there were people unhappy about his hypothesis that time to err on caution, as he does have the potential to be very broken given the proper setup sweepers. Even then it doesn't help that he's received a huge boon in magnet rise to create even more set up opportunities.
Bronzong was defeintly a rise to UU by usage only from the ORAS shift onwards. Calculating the last three months, I don't believe he would have gotten close to rising even though he became so popular and would obviously rise if based on ORAS alone/onwards.
Speaking of which, I tried to start a disscussion earlier about Zong and what two last moves he should be running. (on top of obvious Gyro and Rocks)
I always able to put HP Ice into good use as it manages to break even 252+ SpD Zygarde's subs. Without it, although walling it, it would have ended up just a set-up fodder for the snake.
I'm just disappointed that rachi didn't leave.
Wouldn't losing rachi push Diancie even farther into ban range?
Eh a little, but mdiancie outspeeds with base 110 speed and access to Rock Polish. Add into the mix Earth Power and Rachi is a check at best. Rachis loss would help aToge though. Its one of the few bulky steel types and the only one to outspeed it before it can ParaFlinch thr whoe team.
It would actually push quite a few mons into extremely dangerous/ban range. I think this lot would do for a start
-Lucario
-M Diancie
-M Altaria
-Staraptor
-Togekiss
Basically Jirachi is the snorlax of gen 6. Its both a great mon, and a necessary mon to have on the majority of teams, except for maybe HO, because it fulfills a variety of roles while checking a number of dangerous/broke threats.
I'd be really interested to see Jirachi leave. Not exactly because I want to watch the tier burn, but more that similar to snorlax in gen 5, I feel its use is more mandatory as opposed to being used on its merits. There's a very big difference between those concepts that I think was badly overlooked last generation, especially during the initial suspecting of chandelure, and losing jirachi allows us to explore this concept in much better detail, despite the carnage/overcentralization that could be inflicted upon the tier.
I get that a number of those mons I listed above do have additional checks, maybe even the odd counter, but I think if you look at them, jirachi is certainly the go to option when considering those threats unless you are encountering some trouble in team building constraints.
Id consider Bronzong to be more glue or filler for teams atm, especially for those mons you just listed. Snorlax was good last gen and was a top mon that paired perfectly with cofagrigus. But, the power creep especially on the physical side gives Snorlax a tough job this gen, but its not useless (i would compare Snorlax to an Offensive Blissey in the sense of a special tank). Snorlax is still good in UU as a Curse Sweeper, AssVest user, etc.. CB sets could be viable, but i think it faces competition from Raptor and Krookodile, both are top tier mons.
But, i think one of the biggest effectz on Snorlax was Victinks leaving. It could tank the VC and pursuit easily.
Rachi is a whole different monster that can run many viable sets, checks many pokes with its coverage and ability. That base 100 speed allows it to check a plethor of mons. So, Rachi has its own merits and qualities that distinguish it outside of a mdiancie or altaria check...
So, what are all the cool kids running for Altaria? DD with Return/Earthquake/roost, sub, Heal bell? Or special altaria with Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, etcc?
I mean, both sets have their merits. DD with sub, heal bell, EQ, whatever functions as an excellent win condition against almost all playstyles, while the specially based set lures in steel types such as bronzong to roast them with fire blast, clearing the way for another teammate. I personally like DD better, but I'm sure the specially based set is great.
Ill try both. DD set seems most viable, but it feels like serious 4mss imo. DD and Return are given. Roost is for longevity, sub blocks status, heal bell cures status and earthquake is its coverage move against steels. Even then, mega aggron is a pain...
Ive been finding Mega Beedrill to be one of the easiest mons to fit on a team. Defogging/Spinning isnt that difficult especially with Sableye gone now. So, SR is less of a concern. It can absorb t spikes and its ability lets it bypass normal resists while blasting away anything that doesnt 4x, immune or have priority.
Ugh why did Sableye had to leave, mega eye was actually a godsend for stall ;-;
Guess I better get to making mega audino work now, so far the best set I've tried has been phys def with wish/protect/knock off/dazzling gleam. Knock off actually gives Audino something to do in the copious amounts of free turns it creates because of its ridiculous bulk and typing, and if often causes switches to a bunch of different mons letting it remove the items of a variety of mons.
I really wish it got some form of recovery besides rest and wishtect, because it really limits the amount of things it can do in one set.
Guess I better get to making mega audino work now, so far the best set I've tried has been phys def with wish/protect/knock off/dazzling gleam. Knock off actually gives Audino something to do in the copious amounts of free turns it creates because of its ridiculous bulk and typing, and if often causes switches to a bunch of different mons letting it remove the items of a variety of mons.
I really wish it got some form of recovery besides rest and wishtect, because it really limits the amount of things it can do in one set.
has anyone considered heal bell audino, or is it simply inferior to other options like florges or aromatisse?
i've been trying out mega audino over the past few days, its nothing short of impressive... except most of its work is done unevolved (probably since i was abusing the living shit out of regenerator). i did drop knock off, but there's not much else it can really drop tbh (and i had like two other pokemon with knock off on that team so...)
at the very least, it's a seriously godly knock off absorber, so that's a plus.
i've been trying out mega audino over the past few days, its nothing short of impressive... except most of its work is done unevolved (probably since i was abusing the living shit out of regenerator). i did drop knock off, but there's not much else it can really drop tbh (and i had like two other pokemon with knock off on that team so...)
at the very least, it's a seriously godly knock off absorber, so that's a plus.
I saw a set with CroAudino set with CM, Moonblast, Resttalk, but i think MDiancie is better since it cant be phazed. If we didnt have Blissey, Florges, Vaporeon, Aromatisse and Umbreon in the tier, id say cleric set would be good, but the fact that it takes up your mega slot is tough..
You could even run Togekiss for Heal Bell support and similar typing...
Edit: Hogg pointed out, dazzling gleam for cm set not moonblast. Derp..
Last edited:
Audino doesn't get Moonblast, alas. Dazzling Gleam is kind of crappy as far as mono-attacking goes - even after a couple of boosts, it won't so much as dent its resists.
I really like Audino, as a physically defensive fairy cleric is pretty nice right now, with Hydreigon on the decline and powerful Knock Off users like Krook on the ascent. But I agree, the opportunity cost is high. I'd almost prefer a defensive Altaria in that role despite her lower defenses, as Dragon/Fairy is a better typing than Normal/Fairy, Roost is way more reliable than Wish, and Altaria actually has decent offensive presence.
To be honest, Knock Off is the only thing that differentiates it from other Bulky Fairy WishPassers.
EDIT:
Beedrill used X-Scissor!
It's not very effective... The opposing Iwalluallday lost 75% of its health!
Start using SD MegaBee. It may change your life.
EDIT:
Beedrill used X-Scissor!
It's not very effective... The opposing Iwalluallday lost 75% of its health!
Start using SD MegaBee. It may change your life.
Last edited:
I just had a battle against lochie, and I thought his beedrill would be SD because of the nature of his team. Surprisingly, I have not seen any SD Beedrills. It could be because it really needs either knock off, drill run, or protect as a coverage/utility move. I think it would completely destroy offensive teams after things like luc and scarfers are taken care of, but that is all theorymoning. It has really bad bulk so it can't really set up (in most situations).
tbh, I would go SD + U-turn to bluff not having SD, especially since it isn't popular.
Last edited:
- Status