Friendly reminder that the anime's canon doesn't mean shit because it's not written by GF and has been known to leave out/contradict details when it's convenient.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
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The anime and games certainly have differences, but I think it's fine to pull information from the anime for a theory to fill up holes in the game's world, it only becomes problematic once it starts to contradict; in that case the games have priority. I think it's especially okay in the case of Pokemon Origins which was specifically created to be similar to the games.
In any case, you don't even have to look to the anime to get this conclusion. It makes sense that Gym Leaders would use teams based on how many badges the trainer already has. It would be a little problematic for there to be a set order when you consider not every trainer is starting out in the same hometown as you, and therefore will not take the same path as you. The Gym Leaders are certainly capable of putting up a bigger fight, this is proven when you rematch Gym Leaders or at the Pokemon World Tournament where the Gym Leaders are clearly far more competent than the first time you fought them. In those cases, they play to win. During a gym match, they're there to test how good you are and just assigning a level value to the number of badges is a good general metric to use.
In any case, you don't even have to look to the anime to get this conclusion. It makes sense that Gym Leaders would use teams based on how many badges the trainer already has. It would be a little problematic for there to be a set order when you consider not every trainer is starting out in the same hometown as you, and therefore will not take the same path as you. The Gym Leaders are certainly capable of putting up a bigger fight, this is proven when you rematch Gym Leaders or at the Pokemon World Tournament where the Gym Leaders are clearly far more competent than the first time you fought them. In those cases, they play to win. During a gym match, they're there to test how good you are and just assigning a level value to the number of badges is a good general metric to use.
I actually think it was a wonderful decision on the part of Gamefreak to make the idea of multiple universes canon. The main reason is that it's already well-established. The games and the manga were separate from the games, it's not a stretch to see the games separate from each other. It improves earlier games in the series because it solves the mystery of why people in Kanto/Johto/wherever have never heard of Unova or Kalos, or why they have never seen or heard of Pokemon that were added later on. Before, we were either supposed to accept that they were....hidden somewhere? or the current canon that they just didn't exist in the same universe. We had a movie about this, the one where Celebi brings a kid Prof Oak to the future which is almost a literal grandfather paradox. Time travel is a pretty established concept in the Pokemon universe, so the multiple universe explanation makes more sense to avoid the grandfather paradox. Platinum was all about what does not exist in the physical plane with the Distortion World and wherever Cyrus is floating about atm. It falls into line with a lot of pre-existing material and isn't just a thing shoved in to explain away retcons.
My own pet (and probably crack) theory is that we might get a thing in the future showing a connection between the physics dragons and some of the related Pokemon - Celebi a ward of Dialga, Hoopa for Giratina, ??? Palkia. What all of these Pokemon have in common is that they can move between universes and have been demonstrated to be able to create alternate realities. Celebi and Hoopa make a lot more sense than the lake guardians imo...
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I guess we have an offical Pokemon multiverse now. Which is cool.
I still feel FRLG/ORAS -> HGSS/DDP -> BW -> BW2/XY is still the timelime. Kanto, Sinnoh and Johto can be further away from Hoenn, Kalos and Unova. I feel its more of a north and south hemisphere sort of thing. The Kalos weapon may have only affected the southern regions of Kalos and Hoenn. Im on my phone so i cant draw a decent map but will later to show what i mean
I still feel FRLG/ORAS -> HGSS/DDP -> BW -> BW2/XY is still the timelime. Kanto, Sinnoh and Johto can be further away from Hoenn, Kalos and Unova. I feel its more of a north and south hemisphere sort of thing. The Kalos weapon may have only affected the southern regions of Kalos and Hoenn. Im on my phone so i cant draw a decent map but will later to show what i mean
I don't think it is a multiverse kind of deal. AZ is clearly mentioned by Wallace as the person who planted that huge tree outside the Cave of Origin. There is a theory in Biology, don't remember its name, that two things can evolve simultaneously in different parts of the world. If the regions are located roughly the same distance away from each other that there real life counterparts are, than it is also possible that the Kalos and Hoenn didn't have contact until about five hundred years ago, way after mega evolution developed in both areas. Both were isolated from the other, so both can say that their region is the region to have mega evolution develop first. Back to first part, mega evolution is still considered rare in both regions, so the idea of it not spreading to other regions is still valid. Hoenn, while relatively close to Kanto, Johto, and Sinnoh, still has a bit of water distancing itself from its counterparts, and it might even be illegal to export key stones and mega stones to other regions. I do agree with the version differences being different worlds, as it is stated in Black and White in Opelucid City.
We're more pointing towards Zinnia's assertion that there was an alternate timeline where there was no mega evolution (original RSE) or where the opposing team succeeded (the opposite game) as the reason of a multiverse. XY still happened in the same timeline, but in some timelines it didn't effect the other regions (or the great Kalos war never happened or something). AZ planted a tree this time in ORAS, but there was no tree in RSE.
As for other evidence, the fact that you can trade with different real life people each with there own avatar on an identical journey through the same game has always been reason enough for me that there is a multiverse.
But I may just like the theory because it preserves that most legendaries are unique one-of-a-kind monsters while still allowing for multiple versions of them.
As for other evidence, the fact that you can trade with different real life people each with there own avatar on an identical journey through the same game has always been reason enough for me that there is a multiverse.
But I may just like the theory because it preserves that most legendaries are unique one-of-a-kind monsters while still allowing for multiple versions of them.
Maybe I don't like this theory because of The Legend of Zelda (my brain still hurts from that explanation). And the fact that we have to take one person's word for it. I just like having multiple NPC's mentioning something rather than just taking one person's word for it. And there is some evidence by some people talking about how "things used to be 10 years ago" (one of the people in the contest hall mentions the old method of pokeblock making). Still, the multiverse within your own canon theory just makes things more complicated. I like it between players, but that just helps preserve some of uniqueness of your character.
My point is that we're not taking just one person's word for it. It's confirmed what was already fairly established in the games canon and cleans up a lot of loose ends that didn't make sense. You really need to look at the big picture outside of ORAS and RSE because they do not exist in a vacuum.
I have examples listed above but let me reiterate my point: why people in Kanto never mention Kalos while Kalos people know it exists (remember we're discussing in-game canon, not the obvious real world reason that Kalos didn't exist when Kanto games were made), time travel literally cannot exist with only one reality due to the grandfather paradox with the most valid scientific explanation being parallel universes, and the primary story content of Platinum that was all about different dimensions.
Also, the timeline would have been a total mess with RSE and ORAS because of their relations to other games. HGSS takes place two years after FRLG, which is at the same time as RS presumably. HGSS takes place somewhat after Platinum, confirmed by Cynthia's appearance. BW takes place after Plat/HGSS again because of Catelyn and Cynthia's appearances. XY takes place between BW and BW2 because N is still missing in that timeframe and Looker's Croagunk has died. If ORAS just replaced RSE but also happens somewhere around XY, both of which have fixed places on the timeline...that would be a headache to explain.
In this case I don't think it's a lazy plot device because we had instances that proved Zinnia's assertions before she went out and said it. And ORAS would be shit for lore nerds if they didn't flat out say it.
I have examples listed above but let me reiterate my point: why people in Kanto never mention Kalos while Kalos people know it exists (remember we're discussing in-game canon, not the obvious real world reason that Kalos didn't exist when Kanto games were made), time travel literally cannot exist with only one reality due to the grandfather paradox with the most valid scientific explanation being parallel universes, and the primary story content of Platinum that was all about different dimensions.
Also, the timeline would have been a total mess with RSE and ORAS because of their relations to other games. HGSS takes place two years after FRLG, which is at the same time as RS presumably. HGSS takes place somewhat after Platinum, confirmed by Cynthia's appearance. BW takes place after Plat/HGSS again because of Catelyn and Cynthia's appearances. XY takes place between BW and BW2 because N is still missing in that timeframe and Looker's Croagunk has died. If ORAS just replaced RSE but also happens somewhere around XY, both of which have fixed places on the timeline...that would be a headache to explain.
In this case I don't think it's a lazy plot device because we had instances that proved Zinnia's assertions before she went out and said it. And ORAS would be shit for lore nerds if they didn't flat out say it.
I am looking at the big picture. I do agree with multiverse theory with regards to anime, games, and manga, they are different enough to warrant such an explanation. The whole "why do we never hear of Unova and Kalos" could be because the first four regions are so close together and the other two are isolated from the others and each other (based on real world geography). The first four regions are close enough to form a state really easily, and enough of the action happens there to be oblivious of Unova and Kalos, and only pay attention enough to them when something does happen. It is like the USA, which is arguably the leading power in our world, but ask the typical American where Armenia, Serbia, or Rwanda is, most can't answer nor do they care. They also weren't talked of before they each had their genocide, which corresponds to stories in Unova and Kalos, both of which happened after the first four. It could also account for why the first four are mentioned in the latter two. The Professor Oak example wasn't from the games, so it is dubious to begin with and doesn't count, since it is a different established universe. The dimensions thing is a little different. Dimensions aren't the same thing as universes. Both universes, by the logic proposed before, have four dimensions to them, meaning Platinum's dimensions aren't necessarily evidence.
I will agree with that the timeline is a mess, and the multiverse within the games does explain it easily, but it isn't the only way. Time could be structured with "fixed points", points in history that cannot be changed, with the rest of the timeline in a constant state of flux, all the while remaining in the same reality. With Dialga and Palkia regulating time and space, respectively, and with most of the player's choice being up to the player and not determined by the game, this could work. As for the connectivity between XY and ORAS, time travel could still work here, as shown by the connectivity between the first and second generations.
It is a lazy plot device simply because it doesn't require much and apparently fixes everything.
I will agree with that the timeline is a mess, and the multiverse within the games does explain it easily, but it isn't the only way. Time could be structured with "fixed points", points in history that cannot be changed, with the rest of the timeline in a constant state of flux, all the while remaining in the same reality. With Dialga and Palkia regulating time and space, respectively, and with most of the player's choice being up to the player and not determined by the game, this could work. As for the connectivity between XY and ORAS, time travel could still work here, as shown by the connectivity between the first and second generations.
It is a lazy plot device simply because it doesn't require much and apparently fixes everything.
I think this whole parallel universes thing is getting out of hand. Let's just say each game exists within a universe in and of itself with loose strands connecting to the other games (thus other contained universes). There's no true timeline due to the version differences starting with Gen III (and fully reinforced by Gen V which there is no way to combine since N and the player has to get one of the dragons). Of course, now there are exceptions being made (RSE cannot connect to XY (though that makes me wonder about FRLG)).
New mystery. I just got around to catching the Legendaries, the first few being the Legendary Golems. So now its time to go after their master when I read talking with a girl in Pacifidlog Town would get interesting info. So I spoke with the girl she said that Regigigas can freely visit the other Legendary Golems whenever it wants... which goes against what the Sealed Chamber says about it being sealed away. What do you take from this contradiction?
New mystery. I just got around to catching the Legendaries, the first few being the Legendary Golems. So now its time to go after their master when I read talking with a girl in Pacifidlog Town would get interesting info. So I spoke with the girl she said that Regigigas can freely visit the other Legendary Golems whenever it wants... which goes against what the Sealed Chamber says about it being sealed away. What do you take from this contradiction?
But crazy thoughts and multiverses are fun. The only time travel is the Celebi event in HGSS. But I don't think there is a multiverse. Also, someone is XY mentions the FRLG rival. The big thing with Hoenn and Kalos having Megas is that someone is opennly looking for mega stones. Kinda like fossels. I can dig in my country a lot but I doubt I will find a T-Rex bone.
Did it say can or could? Could would imply it used to before it got sealed away
Darn it, I had my multiverse/10-dimension powerpoint all ready to go (no seriously, I do have one. PM me if you want to see it, I am a GIANT nerd).
Honestly, I think the little girl is full of it. She's a little girl, what does she know? Either that or Regigigas visiting his peeps isn't the same as leaving the sealed chamber. Maybe they use Poke-Skype to "visit" with each other. Or astral-projection. Or since the golems are still sealed in their chambers but have limited visitation and parole rights. Or they can visit any other sealed cave housing a golem, but just nothing outside of a sealed cave.
Or Hoopa did it.
#HoopaDidIt #HoopaConfirmed
I actually feel there's something sinister about Hoopa. He seems like a friendly little prankster, at least in Confined form, but there's a reason someone bound him to a Prison Bottle. Why do I feel freeing him will have consequences?
From what I read about Hoopa an evil organization was planning on using it to their own ends but things started vanish around them. They went underground until things stopped vanishing, only to realize their whole base was teleported somewhere else in a middle of a desert (Hoopa's treasure hiding spot).
They don't go into much detail after that but do explain the other Legendaries appearing are Hoopa's doing (apparently the hoop portals it can create can get as big as a continent, hinting that it's not creating a portal to the mirage spots its BRINGING over the Mirage Spots). No reason is given why its doing this, my only guess is because it's a jerk and just wanted to mess with the other Legendaries.
"Well, due to those humans I'm in an unknown place. I could easily use my portals to find my way back... OR this gives me the fun idea of teleporting the other Legendaries here to watch their faces as they try to figure out what just happened. Hehehe."
Pretty sure you were just reading a fanfic.
I stand corrected.
Ok, putting in my two cents on the hoopa debate/discussion.
Am I the only one that thinks hoopa is remotely creepy as shit/satanicish? (Yes that's a word I SWEAR.)
I have two theories about Hoopa none of which end with happy things and partnering up with ash in a movie that ends up with du es ex machina generated happy rainbows in the sky, everywhere
Do note that I do not like scary things but hoopa keeps bringing them to my mind as you'll see later on. (The only scary things I like are when things are so horrifically awful it's funny, see the Sharktopus in my avatar being ridden by an Empoleon for proof)
1. Hoopa has two personalities one of which is sealed away in a bottle.
As in the article above hoopa is normally just a creepy little shit that can teleport around you seal your jewelry and vanish into a portal never to be seen again.
But when it's evil personality/true power/real version is unlocked it basically becomes satan...satan with portals.
We can see how not only does it become creepy as shit (teeth for eating your soul anyone?) but it now has several more portas on it which when it attacks (as seen in the article) while it has it's six (note SIX) arms attacking the opponent it appears in a portal behind the opponent and laughs, just LAUGHS, laughs at the misery it is now causing OTHER POKEMON.
2. Hoopa actually IS satan.
Let's just clean this up really quickly. First I am not religous etc or into satan, hoopa (HELLpa) just keeps reminding me of it.
Hoopa seems to remind me of one version of satan where he appears to be a kid/innocent child doing little bits of evil but when it's full power is unleashed, well continents dissappear, weapons vanish, and next thing you know you have pissed off legendary pokemon with godly powers raining down on where ever the hell it wants to...along with tanks and RPGs, FUN.
And let's not forget some important things to go with this 1. SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS DANGEROUS TO THE POINT WHERE IT LOCKED THIS PART OF HOOPA AWAY. And 2. What IS that hoop doing in full hoopa's body? A it's where it's "soul" was (ok that was a joke/half joke). B it's a literal portal to hell (not sure if a joke or if actually possible). C That's where it sucks your soul into after it's done eating your body. (Ok last possible joke I swear) D. It actually grows to a size that it can put continents through it's body and move wherever it wants it to. (Unlikely but this is pokemon and remember all the crap they pulled in the first B/W movie) Or F hoopa is the universe/world. Let me explain this, if the rings are part of its body and they can expant to theoretically stupid sizes (after eating enough poffins of course) it could suck the entire world into a giant ring, and move it. But here's the question, what are the rings filled with, like what's the black void like stuff/what is it filled with? If it is its body then hoopa could technically be moving islands around parts of its own body. O_O
Ok I've made a long enough post to bore you all with. Also for the awesome geek debate about the pokemon universes *insert steven colbert eating popcorn gif here*
Am I the only one that thinks hoopa is remotely creepy as shit/satanicish? (Yes that's a word I SWEAR.)
I have two theories about Hoopa none of which end with happy things and partnering up with ash in a movie that ends up with du es ex machina generated happy rainbows in the sky, everywhere
Do note that I do not like scary things but hoopa keeps bringing them to my mind as you'll see later on. (The only scary things I like are when things are so horrifically awful it's funny, see the Sharktopus in my avatar being ridden by an Empoleon for proof)
1. Hoopa has two personalities one of which is sealed away in a bottle.
As in the article above hoopa is normally just a creepy little shit that can teleport around you seal your jewelry and vanish into a portal never to be seen again.
But when it's evil personality/true power/real version is unlocked it basically becomes satan...satan with portals.
We can see how not only does it become creepy as shit (teeth for eating your soul anyone?) but it now has several more portas on it which when it attacks (as seen in the article) while it has it's six (note SIX) arms attacking the opponent it appears in a portal behind the opponent and laughs, just LAUGHS, laughs at the misery it is now causing OTHER POKEMON.
2. Hoopa actually IS satan.
Let's just clean this up really quickly. First I am not religous etc or into satan, hoopa (HELLpa) just keeps reminding me of it.
Hoopa seems to remind me of one version of satan where he appears to be a kid/innocent child doing little bits of evil but when it's full power is unleashed, well continents dissappear, weapons vanish, and next thing you know you have pissed off legendary pokemon with godly powers raining down on where ever the hell it wants to...along with tanks and RPGs, FUN.
And let's not forget some important things to go with this 1. SOMEONE THOUGHT IT WAS DANGEROUS TO THE POINT WHERE IT LOCKED THIS PART OF HOOPA AWAY. And 2. What IS that hoop doing in full hoopa's body? A it's where it's "soul" was (ok that was a joke/half joke). B it's a literal portal to hell (not sure if a joke or if actually possible). C That's where it sucks your soul into after it's done eating your body. (Ok last possible joke I swear) D. It actually grows to a size that it can put continents through it's body and move wherever it wants it to. (Unlikely but this is pokemon and remember all the crap they pulled in the first B/W movie) Or F hoopa is the universe/world. Let me explain this, if the rings are part of its body and they can expant to theoretically stupid sizes (after eating enough poffins of course) it could suck the entire world into a giant ring, and move it. But here's the question, what are the rings filled with, like what's the black void like stuff/what is it filled with? If it is its body then hoopa could technically be moving islands around parts of its own body. O_O
Ok I've made a long enough post to bore you all with. Also for the awesome geek debate about the pokemon universes *insert steven colbert eating popcorn gif here*
We all know that Giratina is Poké-Satan.
Also, to be honest, there are so many beings that have been sealed away so they can't cause harm that it is ridiculous to pick one and say "this inspired Hoopa!" Here is a short list of things that resemble Hoopa and Hoopa Unbound:
The Titans of Greek Mythology
Elder Gods/Great Old Ones from the Cthulhu Mythos (portals to a Lovecraftian nightmare dimension, anyone?)
Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers ("After 10,000 years, I'm Unbound! Time to conquer Hoenn!")
And more that I can't think of.
Now, I do have the feeling that Hoopa is malevolent. It looks evil, the story behind the bottle that we have heard thanks to hackers sounds evil, and it is part Dark-type (Evil-type in Japanese). The eventual movie based around this thing could be awesome if done right. Make Hoopa seem nice and innocent till Ash is dumb enough to open the Prison Bottle and unleash Hell.
Also, to be honest, there are so many beings that have been sealed away so they can't cause harm that it is ridiculous to pick one and say "this inspired Hoopa!" Here is a short list of things that resemble Hoopa and Hoopa Unbound:
The Titans of Greek Mythology
Elder Gods/Great Old Ones from the Cthulhu Mythos (portals to a Lovecraftian nightmare dimension, anyone?)
Rita Repulsa from Power Rangers ("After 10,000 years, I'm Unbound! Time to conquer Hoenn!")
And more that I can't think of.
Now, I do have the feeling that Hoopa is malevolent. It looks evil, the story behind the bottle that we have heard thanks to hackers sounds evil, and it is part Dark-type (Evil-type in Japanese). The eventual movie based around this thing could be awesome if done right. Make Hoopa seem nice and innocent till Ash is dumb enough to open the Prison Bottle and unleash Hell.
Note that I do know a LOT of Greek mythology and unless Hoopa is based on (I want to say atlas but that's the one that's holding up the sky.) The Greek titan that gave humans fire. Also the thing with hoopa is not that it is sealed away, just 90% of its power and it can still roam around the world stealing everything shiny.
There's a question to be considered though: If Hoopa is malevolent, and Giratina is the equivalent to Satan, doesn't that mean that there has to be some sort of relation between the two?
Personally, I'm of the belief that if Game Freak really wanted to give us Poke-Satan, they would go out of their way to include it in the story, and with a major part of it as well.
While Giratina certainly has six rings (which I'm realizing could be another link to Hoopa actually, but likely not), six wings, and six legs, I believe that if Pokemon Satan was to really be incorporated, it would involve Arceus too. Yet although Arceus certainly banished Giratina in Poke Lore, he never goes down to seal up what would be the source of all evil.
Hoopa is similar to red in color. This by itself isn't proof, but keep something in mind... It was stated that every Pokemon, one way or another, would be made available in Gen VI.
I have yet to see Arceus.
As a result, it's likely that Arceus is being saved for a larger plot... And with the massive hoop-legendary plot in ORAS, it becomes even more likely that said plots will intertwine.
As a result, I see that it must be clear. Hoopa could only be Pokemon's Satan, regardless of Giratina. If they're setting up a Post-Dex legendary this much, then there aren't manny other options.
This is, however, purely theoretical, but it would make sense.
Personally, I'm of the belief that if Game Freak really wanted to give us Poke-Satan, they would go out of their way to include it in the story, and with a major part of it as well.
While Giratina certainly has six rings (which I'm realizing could be another link to Hoopa actually, but likely not), six wings, and six legs, I believe that if Pokemon Satan was to really be incorporated, it would involve Arceus too. Yet although Arceus certainly banished Giratina in Poke Lore, he never goes down to seal up what would be the source of all evil.
Hoopa is similar to red in color. This by itself isn't proof, but keep something in mind... It was stated that every Pokemon, one way or another, would be made available in Gen VI.
I have yet to see Arceus.
As a result, it's likely that Arceus is being saved for a larger plot... And with the massive hoop-legendary plot in ORAS, it becomes even more likely that said plots will intertwine.
As a result, I see that it must be clear. Hoopa could only be Pokemon's Satan, regardless of Giratina. If they're setting up a Post-Dex legendary this much, then there aren't manny other options.
This is, however, purely theoretical, but it would make sense.
I never thought of Giratina as satan, just a balance keeper of the world opposite of ours, not hell, just a weird LSD trippy version of our world that effects our world.
Also I didn't think Giratina was banish there by Arceus, just a being in charge of the world created when he made our world.
I never even thought of giratina having those hoops, maybe hoopa could be the anti Giratina. Think about normal giratina in our world, hollowed out, minus the head full hoopa woud look vaguely like the inside of giratina from that perspective.
Giratina's Pokédex entry from Platinum, Black, White, Black 2, White 2, Y, and Alpha Sapphire:
"It was banished for its violence. It silently gazed upon the old world from the Distortion World."
Also, it is known as the Renegade Pokémon.
Apartment 16
In ORAS I'm pretty weirded out by Apt 16 in Mauville Apartments. When you press the intercom on the other vacant apartments you get "No reply" but when you press the intercom here you get "...", like something's behind the door but is unwilling to answer. The door's locked so I have no clue what's inside. It can't be a person, at least an alive one, since it's vacant. The apartment's sign also says that "there is a great deal on the lease", so there's definitely some creepy shit going on in there. I hope that this is explained in DLC or something. Any guesses?
In ORAS I'm pretty weirded out by Apt 16 in Mauville Apartments. When you press the intercom on the other vacant apartments you get "No reply" but when you press the intercom here you get "...", like something's behind the door but is unwilling to answer. The door's locked so I have no clue what's inside. It can't be a person, at least an alive one, since it's vacant. The apartment's sign also says that "there is a great deal on the lease", so there's definitely some creepy shit going on in there. I hope that this is explained in DLC or something. Any guesses?