Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Karxrida]

You obviously haven't used it in a Trick Room, where it just blows through teams. C+ is way too low for this thing. In TR he is a savage beast. Also is a nuke without TR and irs very dangerous switch into:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 334-394 (111.7 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 334-394 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Sheer Force Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 340-404 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 1104-1300 (321.8 - 379%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-307 (80.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 522-614 (175.7 - 206.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 746-878 (274.2 - 322.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Sheer Force Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 440-520 (134.5 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 608-716 (224.3 - 264.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 301-355 (105.2 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 404-476 (110.9 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 246-291 (88.8 - 105%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 219-258 (81.2 - 94.6%) -- 72.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 788-930 (218.2 - 257.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 548-648 (195 - 230.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heatran:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 648-768 (168.3 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 208-246 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also Latios die if switches in:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 265-313 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It could 6-0 a team under Trick Room (for the purposes of this example ignore that Trick Room only lasts 5 turns and it realistically gets 3 turns to abuse it each time), and it would still be C-ish because Trick Room is considered an immense amount of support. Plus having a double Water weakness with Azumarill, Greninja, Keldeo, and... Suicune? running around isn't exactly helpful, especially since Azumarill negates your Trick Room advantage with a simple Aqua Jet.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Camerupt: 360-426 (110.7 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You live a non-Banded one (okay wtf), but you really shouldn't stay in anyway when you can't OHKO back.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Firebird101]

Why is Skarmory in B+ again? It has one of the best defense typings in the game that is unique only to itself (resisting/immune to whooping 10 types) and a great physical bulk and it also has access to plethora of utility moves including stealth rock, spikes, defog, whirlwind so it can work as either hazard setter or remover. (And as much as Mega Sableye is a pain to all opposing stall mons it ain't omnipresent)and reliable recovery in roost and while it's attack stat aren't impressive it can still retaliate with brave bird and counter which with sturdy doesn't always encourage physical sweeper to try setup on them. Oh and shed shell lets it ignore trapping shenanigans from Magnezone/ton and it doesn't miss the leftovers recovery that much with roost in it's movepool. Sure knock off is a pain but unless there is a trapper on the opposite team it can afford losing the item. And I know I already touched on this before, but how about that defense typing? Mega Metagross can't touch it and it completely stops Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Beedrill and Mega Altaria lacking fire coverage as well as more familiar newcomers like Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor and that is just the mega pokemons, but it basically stops almost all physical sweepers that are not fire types and do not carry a strong fire coverage and I really don't get why Skarmory should share the same rank as Rhypherior when the latter doesn't even have a reliable recovery and has even more crippling weaknesses as well as less resistances.

tl;dr: Until someone convinces me otherwise I think Skarmory should be A-

 

[Numera]

Is my name really that hard to spell? Come on guys, it rhymes with Marx at the front; the very least you could do is put Karx. :/


Latios can potentially be an issue since it may be running Roost. Not the most common thing in the world, but it's a possibility and will let it counter you more than once.

If we want to be technical, they are all still counters because they OHKO back before you can finish them off with another Fire Blast, especially if you mispredict and they switch in on an immunity (or resist in Azumarill's case).

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 85-101 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 167-197 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wearing them down so they can't switch in more than once is pretty good, but you're not going to do anything like stopping a BD Azumarill from setting up unless you're super ballsy.

They're NOT counters. They're more like checks in a sense, seeing as after 1 switch in they're dead next time they try. It's that simple. You can't use it switching in on FBlast as the main point to your argument; prediction works both ways so we just assume the Pokemon is using the most practical move in that situation when discussing viability.

Also, what is that disgusting AV Azumarill spread? You should have 240 hp and 16 spdef...

 

[pika pal]

Why is Skarmory in B+ again? It has one of the best defense typings in the game that is unique only to itself (resisting/immune to whooping 10 types) and a great physical bulk and it also has access to plethora of utility moves including stealth rock, spikes, defog, whirlwind so it can work as either hazard setter or remover. (And as much as Mega Sableye is a pain to all opposing stall mons it ain't omnipresent)and reliable recovery in roost and while it's attack stat aren't impressive it can still retaliate with brave bird and counter which with sturdy doesn't always encourage physical sweeper to try setup on them. Oh and shed shell lets it ignore trapping shenanigans from Magnezone/ton and it doesn't miss the leftovers recovery that much with roost in it's movepool. Sure knock off is a pain but unless there is a trapper on the opposite team it can afford losing the item. And I know I already touched on this before, but how about that defense typing? Mega Metagross can't touch it and it completely stops Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Beedrill and Mega Altaria lacking fire coverage as well as more familiar newcomers like Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor and that is just the mega pokemons, but it basically stops almost all physical sweepers that are not fire types and do not carry a strong fire coverage and I really don't get why Skarmory should share the same rank as Rhypherior when the latter doesn't even have a reliable recovery and has even more crippling weaknesses as well as less resistances.

tl;dr: Until someone convinces me otherwise I think Skarmory should be A-

The big problem I think Skarmory faces (whether it warrants keeping it down) is the fact that as good as it is at its jobs of supporting and walling, there's not a lot it can do back. When Sableye or Chansey walls something, they can put status on them, or, in Sableye's case, boost on them. Skarmory without Whirlwind might wall Gallade, or Altaria, but since it can't always do enough back to them, they can boost in its face until they can break it. Altaria going mixed w/ Fire Blast doesn't even have to wait for boosts to smack it down. Skarmory walls well, but its passive, so it's ultimately strained having to wall threats a lot longer than other such mons who can wear the opponent out so they don't need to endure as much punishment.

 

[Karxrida]

They're NOT counters, they're more checks in a sense seeing as after 1 switch in they're dead next time they try. It's that simple. You can't use it switching in on FBlast as the main point to your argument; prediction works both ways so we just assume the Pokemon is using the most practical move in that situation when discussing viability.

Also, what is that disgusting AV Azumarill spread? You should have 240 hp and 16 spdef...

I said they were technically counters because they could OHKO you before you could get the 2HKO; you only 2HKO them theoretically since they outspeed. I believe I already mentioned that they probably can't come in more than once unless they come in on an Earth Power (or Fire Blast in Azumarill's case).

Also the AV Azumarill spread is the default one on the calculator. The 240 HP one actually takes slightly more damage here, so I just used the default.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I don't think that if you take more than 35-40% from something you supposedly wall is a good thing. With any prior damage, you can't switch in to things you 'wall', so that's really not a 'wall', just a check.

"Walling" and "countering" are two different things. A weakened Quagsire may not be able to switch directly into a certain Pokemon, but if it gets in safely and is able to beat that Pokemon's damage percentage with its own recovery, then it certainly walls that Pokemon since the opponent will be unable to break Quagsire through raw damage (outside of hax).

Even in this case, though, if Quagsire can switch into a Pokemon without being 1-2HKOed on the switch, then it's pretty safe to say that Quagsire counters that Pokemon. Assuming Stealth Rock is down is one thing, but assuming arbitrary amounts of prior damage is hardly a fair analysis. It might make Quagsire a softer counter if a little prior damage + Stealth Rock will secure a 2HKO, but it's technically still a counter.

EDIT: TerrorDave:

Yes, those are still counters since they can switch in and win the matchup. Soft counters since they can't do it very consistently, but counters nonetheless.

 

[Numera]

I said they were technically counters because they could OHKO you before you could get the 2HKO; you only 2HKO them theoretically since they outspeed. I believe I already mentioned that they probably can't come in more than once unless they come in on an Earth Power (or Fire Blast in Azumarill's case).

Also the AV Azumarill spread is the default one on the calculator. The 240 HP one actually takes slightly more damage here, so I just used the default.

But that IS a check. They fit under the definition of checks: They can come in and force a switch and can OHKO, but can't switch in more than once.

The calc is wrong, once again. It's wrong about standard sets quite often tbh, at least in the EV department.

 

[Karxrida]

But that IS a check. They fit under the definition of checks: They can come in and force a switch and can OHKO, but can't switch in more than once.

The calc is wrong, once again. It's wrong about standard sets quite often tbh, at least in the EV department.

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

They can survive any one hit and win by threatening to OHKO with a super effective Water attack, so they're counters.

Also the EV spread for the AV Azumarill calc is irrelevant because the damage was nearly identical anyway.

 

[Numera]

They can survive any one hit and win by threatening to OHKO with a super effective Water attack, so they're counters.

Also the EV spread for the AV Azumarill calc is irrelevant because the damage was nearly identical anyway.

still win every time

They can only switch in once. I really fail to deem them counters, as they win like that once. They'd need free switches afterwards, and thus they must be played as checks from then on.

 

[MANNAT]

They can survive any one hit and win by threatening to OHKO with a super effective Water attack, so they're counters.

Also the EV spread for the AV Azumarill calc is irrelevant because the damage was nearly identical anyway.

I thought a counter could take repeated hits from the Pokemon it is supposed to counter. They can only switch in once. Am i missing something here?

Edit: Greninja'd

 

[Agent Gibbs]

still win every time

They can only switch in once. I really fail to deem them counters, as they win like that once. They'd need free switches afterwards, and thus they must be played as checks from then on.

"Still win every time" doesn't mean that a counter needs to be able to safely switch in an infinite number of times. Otherwise, it'd be rare for anything to counter anything else without some form of reliable recovery since they can eventually be worn down enough to the point where they will no longer counter what they're supposed to. Instead, what it means is that the Pokemon will be able to win under any circumstances, which is clarified by the phrase "even under the worst case scenario" that follows. The reason people use terms like "soft counter" is that there are some Pokemon that can only counter another once or just a couple of times before they can no longer safely switch in, but the fact that they can safely switch in at least once means that they are technically a counter.

 

[Numera]

"Still win every time" doesn't mean that a counter needs to be able to safely switch in an infinite number of times. Otherwise, it'd be rare for anything to counter anything else without some form of reliable recovery since they can eventually be worn down enough to the point where they will no longer counter what they're supposed to. Instead, what it means is that the Pokemon will be able to win under any circumstances, which is clarified by the phrase "even under the worst case scenario" that follows. The reason people use terms like "soft counter" is that there are some Pokemon that can only counter another once or just a couple of times before they can no longer safely switch in, but the fact that they can safely switch in at least once means that they are technically a counter.

Can we settle with they're one time counters? I agree, they counter it once, but after that they literally become checks. That's the only problem I have here, seeing as it's very different to things like Tentacruel countering Greninja. It can come in what, 3/4 times before Greninja wins? In this instance, they can only come in once. Even soft counter seems a bit, well, too hard, because it's literally once.

 

[pika pal]

But that IS a check. They fit under the definition of checks: They can come in and force a switch and can OHKO, but can't switch in more than once.

The thing is they still fit the definition of a counter, soft or not. The most widely accepted definition of a counter is: "Counter can switch into anything X can use and win every time."
The above noted Pokemon are indeed Counters because nothing Mega Camerupt runs can OHKO them, and they can OHKO him back with a water move. If he uses WoW, they still KO before Cam does even with the drop.

Despite his power, Camerupt is actually decently easy to counter because he has to OHKO a target, otherwise they outspeed and defeat him instead. Even if they only switch in once, Camerupt is much more hard pressed to get in after he's forced out than they are, because of his only okay bulk and lack of any recovery. Other slow nukes are either not quite that slow, and/or have priority to circumvent their speed.

I think the biggest thing that makes Mega Camerupt a problem for me is that, while he brings plenty of power, he has serious competition from the Zards, Victini, and even Entei as fire type wallbreakers, who are all faster on top of other advantages
- Zards hit about the same, while Zard-Y has Solarbeam Coverage, while Zard-X has near unresisted STABs and boosting options. Both have healing in Roost.
- Victini flat out hits like a truck even on resists thanks to V-Create, Bolt Strike coverage, ability to hold an item, and the choice to do luring with moves like Glaciate
- Entei has similar bulk, Priority, and Sacred Fire's burn chance means even his counters are iffy switching in.

And the fact is, with how hard it is for Camerupt to switch in with his speed and typing, sometimes being checked/countered once is all he needs. Lando-T only checks/counters some threats so many times, but managing to do that at all is often all he needs to contribute against them: Checking +1 Zard-X usually means it doesn't get another sweep chance, for example. And on the switch, maybe Camerupt makes it out unscathed, but the switch ins to things like Azumarill, Keldeo, or the Latis are also prone to being worn down over time, like Ferrothorn, Heatran or defensive Gyarados.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Can we settle with they're on time counters? I agree, they counter it once, but after that they literally become checks. That's the only problem I have here, seeing as it's very different to things like Tentacruel countering Greninja. It can come in what, 3/4 times before Greninja wins? In this instance, they can only come in once.

That's why I used the term "soft counters." Or you could use "hard checks." There's honestly a pretty fuzzy line between the two, and I think that'd just be splitting hairs. Bottom line is that it's going to take a couple of tries before you can beat something like Azumarill or Rotom-W on the switch with Mega Camerupt without being forced out.

 

[Numera]

That's why I used the term "soft counters." Or you could use "hard checks." There's honestly a pretty fuzzy line between the two, and I think that'd just be splitting hairs. Bottom line is that it's going to take a couple of tries before you can beat something like Azumarill or Rotom-W on the switch with Mega Camerupt without being forced out.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Thanks for clearing this up Gibbs :].

I actually think hard check fits a little better, because in viability terms I wouldn't let them affect it's viability as much as a counter would. But you're right, yes, technically, they are counters, and they should affect it's viability more than an everyday check.

 

[skies]

While on the subject of Mega Camerupt, here's a post I made on why it deserves to move up:

B Rank ---> B+ Rank
​

Alright, I've had the time to test this thing a bit more so I'll comment on raising it. Firstly, this thing is really good and I really underestimated it. Mega Camerupt hits ferociously hard, launching off powerful Fire Blasts and Earth Powers and being extremely difficult to switch into. Its typing is excellent, giving it really great synergy with a lot of things; including, but not limited to, Celebi, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Porygon2, and much more! I've been running it off of Trick Room and still works fantastically! A simple set of Fire Blast / Earth Power / Ancient Power / Will-O-Wisp is what I'm running and I must say, I'm really impressed by it thus far! But, what makes it worthy of moving up a rank? I truly don't think that it belongs in the same rank as Mega Latios, something which, when compared, is objectively worse. I'd rather compare it to Victini, another strong Fire-type nuke. They play vastly differently, but they do have that one trait in common and besides it they're both quite good. I support the movement of Mega Camerupt up to B+ Rank!

Still stand by this notion n_n!

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Nominating Mega Beedrill for B-.

This probably isnt out of place as he is a mon with too many flaws. First off, hes weak to rocks, and hes meant to be a Voltturn core user. This completley destroys the purpouse of this pokemon if Rocks are out, and therefore useless. Second, its so damn weak it needs Protect to stall a turn for its mega. This means it cant run coverage or unique moves like Fell Stinger and others. Thirdly, its cockblocked by so many common mons. Air Balloon Heatran, Skarm, Ferrothorn, somewhat cockblocked by MMeta (as it can setup Agility on protect switch if its Agiligross) and it dreads staying in with them. Fourthly, his typing is bad defensivley and offensivley, making it mediocre. Overall, it takes a whole mega slot to be a U turner that hits semi hard but also has nasty SR weakness, needs a Protect Slot, its cockblocked by basically any bulky steel type (and trust me, 145 base attack is weak without LO.) and so on. Basically i dont think it deserves to go up or even stay at B.

Also, did i mention hes setup bait on his mega turn and hes frail and easily suspectible to Scarfers? Guys, we dont rank someone up a whole rank just for being able to take on Greninja, either. Also, B- rank is really welcome for him. Mega Sharpedo, Mega Cam, Empoleon, etc. all loom there.

 

[Kurona]

Nominating Mega Beedrill for B-.

This probably isnt out of place as he is a mon with too many flaws. First off, hes weak to rocks, and hes meant to be a Voltturn core user. This completley destroys the purpouse of this pokemon if Rocks are out, and therefore useless. Second, its so damn weak it needs Protect to stall a turn for its mega. This means it cant run coverage or unique moves like Fell Stinger and others. Thirdly, its cockblocked by so many common mons. Air Balloon Heatran, Skarm, Ferrothorn, somewhat cockblocked by MMeta (as it can setup Agility on protect switch if its Agiligross) and it dreads staying in with them. Fourthly, his typing is bad defensivley and offensivley, making it mediocre. Overall, it takes a whole mega slot to be a U turner that hits semi hard but also has nasty SR weakness, needs a Protect Slot, its cockblocked by basically any bulky steel type (and trust me, 145 base attack is weak without LO.) and so on. Basically i dont think it deserves to go up or even stay at B.

Also, did i mention hes setup bait on his mega turn and hes frail and easily suspectible to Scarfers? Guys, we dont rank someone up a whole rank just for being able to take on Greninja, either. Also, B- rank is really welcome for him. Mega Sharpedo, Mega Cam, Empoleon, etc. all loom there.

I wouldn't run Fell Stinger if Beedrill had the best damn bulk in the world; the only thing it really misses is one of Drill Run or Knock Off, and just the one of them is enough in addition to STAB imo.
Due to how bloody ridiculous Greninja is at this point, I'd argue being able to take it on is a reason to move up.

 

[AM]

Ok here's why I think M-Camerupt shouldn't rise and should stay B and even the slight possibility of dropping down to B-.

I've used M-Camerupt in both non TR and TR teams. Now I've been reading all the day the arguments for how it's this amazing wallbreaker that wall breaks the entire tier, exaggerated but you get the idea with people and hype. First off, we know it wall-breaks a lot of key threats in the meta with ease due to Sheer Force and it's general movepool that is enhanced by this, its kind of obvious at this point unless you're getting into OU or something. The real question is its practical efficiency outside of the team-building perspective which only touches upon its synergy with other team-mates. I think I need to emphasize how bad being slow is for M-Camerupt. When passive stall starts to look fast for M-Camerupt, that's a big problem in practice because at that moment they have the speed advantage, and the words speed and passive stall shouldn't be in the same sentence together lol. Let's take into consideration that Chansey is extremely common on Stall and if not Chansey a specially defensive wall designed to accommodate stalls defensive spectrum will more than likely take its place, while stalling out Fire Blast more likely than not since that's the most spammable move it has. M-Camerupt forces a lot of switches by virtue of what it does but this is a double edged sword more often than that because it's now a prediction game to hit the right coverage move for the right opponent. When I have to rely on prediction to that degree that just makes me feel like it's less consistent and definitely not something I should be expecting frequently for a B+ ranked mon. I guess you can use the logic of running physical oriented or mixed sets but its strongest attacks are specially offensive ones and as such can be hard to justify the use of physical moves unless it's for something specific. At least M-Garchomp can hit both sides of the defensive spectrum and granted it has to do with a couple of other traits, but M-Garchomp currently sits at B- and also provides a wallbreaking role, has more speed, reliable set up move with that speed and almost equal bulk. If you want to throw in a subjective argument cause we all love those as I can see, you can actually just bluff between regular and mega Garchomp the same way one would bluff between Zard-Y and Zard-X. When you see Camerupt on team preview, it's pretty obvious what it is, and it's pretty obvious how you have to play it out to take advantage of it.

M-Camerupt gets worn down and this goes right back to its stupidly low speed. The fact that you have to speed creep in order to outpace stuff like Slowbro is absolutely embarrassing and kills so much momentum the moment you do potentially and if you actually take out the opponent. The fact I can't utilize M-Camerupt's wallbreaking potential the way I would like simply because it's slower than a rock just makes me feel like it's an opportunity cost for me to use another wall-breaker who is faster and more reliable against various archetypes, such as Lando-I or SD M-Gallade. Having to resort to switching in and out of threats is a problem in a metagame and game as a whole that centralizes around the use of Stealth Rock and OU in particular with the relevant usage of hazard stacking offense. So basically it comes in and out of hazards because most cases unless it's an obvious immunity hit coming your way, you'll just be switching out the moment M-Camerupt is threatened, and when Keldeo, Lando-T, Greninja, Azumarill, Latias, and others are a norm, this is happening a lot.

So on to my final point I think where M-Cam shines is against HO that lacks an immediate threatening answer to it because they are more than likely frail and will take a huge hit from M-Camerupt again, if they can't actually threaten it immediately. I also think that all the pros it has justifies some usage to a degree as it's one of the best if not the best wallbreaker for Trick Room right now, where it basically excels at due to mitigating the speed factor. My issue is also this. People are nominating M-Beedrill for B+. I can't see the two in the same subrank what so ever and M-Beedrill is just way more threatening I feel from a practical standpoint due to its tools to threaten various archetypes and is a huge momentum provider for its teammates. With this being said if M-Beedrill were to rise then B is sort of justified for the time being in M-Camerupts case. If not M-Camerupt needs to drop down due to the cons it provides in a similar fashion to M-Garchomp where they have key positive traits but suffer from opportunity cost for the most part.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

I wouldn't run Fell Stinger if Beedrill had the best damn bulk in the world; the only thing it really misses is one of Drill Run or Knock Off, and just the one of them is enough in addition to STAB imo.
Due to how bloody ridiculous Greninja is at this point, I'd argue being able to take it on is a reason to move up.

Im not disagreeing with you that greninja is the defining force of the meta, but taking on that pokemon itself isnt just good enough imo. What about the rest of the meta? What about most of the steel types? What about MVenu,Air Balloon Heatran, and scarfers? Imo its just not good enough for B but B- isnt that bad at all either, and its a respectable place for it.

 

[jbtc10]

Nominating Mega Beedrill for B-.

This probably isnt out of place as he is a mon with too many flaws. First off, hes weak to rocks, and hes meant to be a Voltturn core user. This completley destroys the purpouse of this pokemon if Rocks are out, and therefore useless. Second, its so damn weak it needs Protect to stall a turn for its mega. This means it cant run coverage or unique moves like Fell Stinger and others. Thirdly, its cockblocked by so many common mons. Air Balloon Heatran, Skarm, Ferrothorn, somewhat cockblocked by MMeta (as it can setup Agility on protect switch if its Agiligross) and it dreads staying in with them. Fourthly, his typing is bad defensivley and offensivley, making it mediocre. Overall, it takes a whole mega slot to be a U turner that hits semi hard but also has nasty SR weakness, needs a Protect Slot, its cockblocked by basically any bulky steel type (and trust me, 145 base attack is weak without LO.) and so on. Basically i dont think it deserves to go up or even stay at B.

Also, did i mention hes setup bait on his mega turn and hes frail and easily suspectible to Scarfers? Guys, we dont rank someone up a whole rank just for being able to take on Greninja, either. Also, B- rank is really welcome for him. Mega Sharpedo, Mega Cam, Empoleon, etc. all loom there.

The thing is, most of the steel types are trivially removed by pairing with Magnezone, and the others like Heatran can be easily exploited by U-Turning into a powerful check like Specs Keldeo which can proceed to tear holes. That's the whole point of Beedrill, it's a super fast and hard hitting offensive pivot that checks a lot of opposing fast mons like Greninja, Lati's, Sceptile and Fairies and either KO's, wears down or nabs momentum from anything it threatens. It's not hard to pair it with hazard support like Starmie or Excadrill either, and the offensive pressure you apply can make it difficult for hazards to actually go up to begin with. Running Protect actually isn't that bad since Beedrill doesn't really have much else it wants to run in the last slot anyway and it helps against Fake-Out users and scouting for unexpected scarfers. I built a team to actually test it out and Beedrill has proven to be very good and even worth making a team around:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-192316668
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-192224453
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-192289278

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Why is Skarmory in B+ again? It has one of the best defense typings in the game that is unique only to itself (resisting/immune to whooping 10 types) and a great physical bulk and it also has access to plethora of utility moves including stealth rock, spikes, defog, whirlwind so it can work as either hazard setter or remover. (And as much as Mega Sableye is a pain to all opposing stall mons it ain't omnipresent)and reliable recovery in roost and while it's attack stat aren't impressive it can still retaliate with brave bird and counter which with sturdy doesn't always encourage physical sweeper to try setup on them. Oh and shed shell lets it ignore trapping shenanigans from Magnezone/ton and it doesn't miss the leftovers recovery that much with roost in it's movepool. Sure knock off is a pain but unless there is a trapper on the opposite team it can afford losing the item. And I know I already touched on this before, but how about that defense typing? Mega Metagross can't touch it and it completely stops Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Beedrill and Mega Altaria lacking fire coverage as well as more familiar newcomers like Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor and that is just the mega pokemons, but it basically stops almost all physical sweepers that are not fire types and do not carry a strong fire coverage and I really don't get why Skarmory should share the same rank as Rhypherior when the latter doesn't even have a reliable recovery and has even more crippling weaknesses as well as less resistances.

tl;dr: Until someone convinces me otherwise I think Skarmory should be A-

+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That's very, very far from a 'complete stop.'

It also fails to hard wall Mega Lop if it's running a Power Up Punch set:

+1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[wolfenstein]

+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

That's very, very far from a 'complete stop.'

It also fails to hard wall Mega Lop if it's running a Power Up Punch set:

+1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's actually not a lot of damage at all, considering it's at +1. Also, brave bird does around 80-90% to both of them and counter will OHKO depending on their boosts so I'd say it's pretty damn close to a complete stop.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Hawlucha does not need coverage since acro+HJK is unresisted by almost the entire tier lol. SubSD with sitrus and Focus-sash SD is still pretty deadly against Offensive teams and it is one of the best Late-game sweepers out there not using a meg-slot. It struggles against stall since MegaBro and M-Sableye force it out relativly easily, but they can be worn down with the help of team mates. I can mabye see it drop to B but with that STAB combo there is no way it should be lower than that.

EDIT: Get ninja'd

MegaEye doesn't even wall Lucha.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 193-228 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, its Dark Pulses don't even break Lucha's subs:

0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 54-65 (18 - 21.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[MikeDawg]

Camerupt isn't even good in trick room tbh. It simply doesn't have the power behind its moves to nab those 1hkos on all but frail offensive mons. Its limited coverage sometimes prevents even 2hkos on typical offense members.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 110-130 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 83% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 141-166 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 128-151 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Let us also remember that camerupt operates off of prediction. It can't outspeed anything, so hitting on the switch is all that it has to offer against any offensive teams. A misused ancientpower/earth power will waste one of the limited switchins that camerupt has throughout the match.

Also, I don't get the trend of posting mediocre calcs and trying to use them to prove camerupt's worth. Sure, it has the potential to 2hko phys defensive rotom-w/azumaril/other resisted mons, but it will never actually GET the 2hko, because it is outsped by everything. Sure, you can speed creep for things like slowbro, but that cuts into its bulk, and it has the potential to be unreliable. Meanwhile, there are mons that can perform this role significantly better than camerupt:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 193-228 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

TIMID Char-Y is not only stronger. It also carries better coverage (solarbeam, can use eq for tran if so desired, dragon moves for latis if desired, etc.) and can support the team/itself via sun (also useful for revenging something like rush exca)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-188 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO

Landorus carries a naturally weaker primary stab. It's coverage options, though, are also superior. It has access to u-turn, can outspeed things (is therefore useful against stall/balance), has better typing (weak to ice shard, but camerupt is outsped by slowbro... no priority neccesary to 1hko), and it doesn't take up a mega.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Again, power comparable to Mega-Camperupt, except it has far better coverage, and outspeeds things.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 205-243 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you really want to go there, I would honestly rather use exploud. It is stronger, and it has the single most spammable stab move in the game. Also, it outspeeds stuff. Better on tr because of not needing to predict; just bop. Lacks defensive synergy and the like, but camerupt's is far overstated anyway.



Head to the physical end of the spectrum, and camerupt finds even more competition (turn up, crawdaunt). On the topic of its bulk, it's very over-exaggerated. Its typing grants it a single immunity, and that immunity is usually paired with one of its 4x weaknesses, via one of the most effective momentum-grabbers in the meta. It is weak to common mons that are very dangerous and hard to switch into: Azumarill, Keldeo, Greninja, Landorus, Latis, Manaphy are a few. This list grows even larger if camerupt is weakened a bit. Given that it is vulnerable to all hazards, and has zero recovery, this isn't an unlikely scenario. It is 1/2hkod by most of the meta, giving it perhaps one or two switches to take advantage of its "unique defensive typing." Yes, it can be brought in on a u-turn, but it then has to tank a hit from literally any mon that is in play due to its horrid speed.

After initial postings about it, I thought that it would be better, but after actually using it, even it a TR environment, I think that it should go down to C-ish