np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

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Stratos

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because the suspect ladder is deader than my sex life, the last week of this test will be suspect ladder only. the current ladder and suspect ladder will continue to exist side by side until then because if you're having trouble getting matches on the current ladder then you need to stop laddering at 5 am EST, and people will be busy during the holidays so we want to maximize the time you can have on the ladder.
 

Braverius

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What I'm trying to say is that Mega Salamence is good, but it relies a lot on (a) being able to set up a DD and (b) redirection from a partner. In similar circumstances a lot of other Pokemon could be equally good. Feel free to shoot me down, whatever.
Well yeah of course it relies on that, but I don't think other Pokemon (other than maybe Kangaskhan) could be "equally good" there. Salamence's base power, Intimidate when not mega'd, and having a 120BP STAB move with a borked attack stat and a boatload more resistances than Kangaskhan makes it easily the hardest thing to stop next to a redirection mon. That it's so good paired with redirection and can't really do anything else without it makes me want to ban the thing even more, it's an inflexible 400 horsepower cheese machine.

I'm only talking about physical MegaMence here; I think special is actually a pretty flexible, healthy mon for the meta and very usable, but we're testing the item and can't ban a specific way to run a Pokemon.
 

Mizuhime

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Figure ill post my thoughts on Salamence and the current metagame. As most of you know, I think Salamence is a monster and extremely good in the current meta. I've seen a lot of people saying otherwise, haven't quite been able to figure out why. Ive found bulky mence to be the most effective since it doesn't need nearly any attack investment to be effective. with 16 Atk evs you do like 80% to landorus-t lol. Obviously, redirection is one of the most prominent ways to help mence set up, and yes i have been using that. At the same time tho I've been simultaneously spreading a lot of status around (t-wave Zapdos and Amoonguss) to free up a lot space for mence. If you give mence an inch it takes a mile and the game is over. I've had plenty games where my opponent couldn't even break the substitute and just ended clicking x before it could do anything. I also find that when I'm team building, Salamence is so centralizing that i need to pack an extra "counter" or two just to be able to deal with, of course i use the term counter lightly in doubles because of the way the format is, and the fact that mence has none. To sum it all up, I think Salamence is one of the most centralizing mons doubles has ever seen and it's way to powerful for my ideal tier. And finally, bulky Salamence is the best Salamence.
 
I would also like to add that, if you are using Pokemon as obscure as scarf HP Ice Rotoms or Blizzard on bulky water Water-types (like me keke) to check Mence, that is definite proof of how overcentralizing and unhealthy is for the metagame. You seriously cannot tell me its not broken after using spreads like that lol. Sure you might surprise an opp and win a game or two vs Mega Salamence, but there is no way for the meta to evolve around it that is still healthy for this metagame.
 

Lord Alphose

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Finished laddering, so I guess I'd just like to post and pretty much say exactly what the two above me said.

This is doubles, so things are weird, like hard counters aren't as hard of counters and soft checks can be more of a threat, just depending on how they're played. I'm seeing people talking about Icy Wind Life Orb Keldeo. So yeah, Icy Wind Life Orb Keldeo can OHKO Salamence. However, what does it do outside of that. The fact that that was even brought up, that anyone even cared about it, means that the best ways to fight Mega Mence is through obscure stuff. I ran SubDD Salamence, and it was amazing how incredibly easy it was to set up on Pokemon that I normally would have thought would be able to beat it. On top of that, a good portion of the time, I didn't even have to set up.

Above average stats, several different sets - or set variations - that it can run, and any counter that it has is demolished by one of its other sets. Most of its counters aren't worth anything in a legitimate battle, and p much it's too centralizing.

Also, ladder is bad. I can attest to that, as I ended up top 15 of Doubles Suspect.
 

Level 51

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I would also like to add that, if you are using Pokemon as obscure as scarf HP Ice Rotoms or Blizzard on bulky water Water-types (like me keke) to check Mence, that is definite proof of how overcentralizing and unhealthy is for the metagame. You seriously cannot tell me its not broken after using spreads like that lol. Sure you might surprise an opp and win a game or two vs Mega Salamence, but there is no way for the meta to evolve around it that is still healthy for this metagame.
I'd like to point out that Pokemon like scarf HP Ice Rotom and Blizzard on bulky Water-types check things besides Salamence. You can't use the presence of such sets to prove that Salamence is overcentralising, just that people acknowledge it as a threat when they're building teams.
 

Arcticblast

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where are the Scarf HP Ice Rotom and where are the Blizzard bulky Waters (besides on your team)

I have seen neither of these
 
I'd like to point out that Pokemon like scarf HP Ice Rotom and Blizzard on bulky Water-types check things besides Salamence. You can't use the presence of such sets to prove that Salamence is overcentralising, just that people acknowledge it as a threat when they're building teams.
Actually forcing many Pokemon to give up their utility in order to check one Pokemon is the definition of overcentralizing. I agree that anything else Ice weak also gets thrown into what these obscure sets check, which is a nice bonus, but the fact that these sets never existed beforehand proves my point. Without Blizzard, Suicune is actually a burden to my team (I tested Icy Wind first) because it become setup bait to Mence+Jirachi, and because it needs Blizzard, now one of Jirachi+Mence's most reliable checks relies on a 70% roll to win.

Unrelated, but everyone stop calling Diancie a reliable check when Aqua Tail destroys it, meaning the only way for it to have an advantage is if it somehow forces Salamence to switch in on it (which is impossibe????). DD Aqua Tail is the most broke set btw.

Also "play well and stop jirachi+mence from being on the field together" is a bad argument as well for obv reasons. Literally every other strategy in Doubles has common hard-checks accept this duo.

where are the Scarf HP Ice Rotom and where are the Blizzard bulky Waters (besides on your team)

I have seen neither of these
battle more ps randos
 
I think Salamence is a monster and extremely good in the current meta. A lot of the arguments in favor of banning mega mence stem from the fact that they're using it wrong, and are calling it bad because they can't use it. It's going to take quite some doing to get Mega Salamence to +1/+1 and behind a Substitute, and if you just disregard your winplan or the opponent's side of the field or whatever, you ain't finna win games. First of all, it takes two moveslots to get this degree of setup, and secondly, a lot of people here are falling back on 'redirection' as an argument. A lot of things are threatening given proper redirection. Heck, even NP (Footnote: Level 51, wtf is NP?) Mega Houndoom can be threatening, provided it gets a similar chance at setup. We should suspect redirection, and do a complex ban that prevents 2 pokemon from being allowed on the field at the same time when one of them learns rage powder, and another learns protect, and then spore and follow me are part of the complex ban, and so is kangaskhanite (sorry pwnemon I swear that was a mistype)

Mega Salamence's natural bulk work is pretty fkin naturally beastly and amazing. Its 95/130/90 defences are extremely helpful for setting up, and letting it set up is quite figuratively asking to lose. Substitute takes out an eZ amount of its health which it cannot recover unless it takes another moveslot or uses roost (other moveslots are [irrelevant] B. Bad[] or whatever moves you want to use to win every game easily because you're using mega mence. Sandstorm and Hail obstreperous this condition, and of course spread moves and attacks in general can provide some degree of annoyance if you don't get your redirector in / your Substitute up in time. Mence has too much control over its own speed, making stopping it more difficult than any other threat.

On the other hand, if you use Mega Salamence without Dragon Dance, you're forgoing a lot of the potential power Mega Salamence could have fucking garbage, and you're leaving it rather vulnerable to Landorus-T, Heatran, Aegislash, Rotom-W, and so on, which are all very common in this tier. Mega Salamence without Substitute is in a similar boat literally the worst set imaginable, and gets whittled down by Intimidate and spread moves in general since it no longer has a Substitute to block Intimidate and soak up hits.

What I'm trying to say is that Mega Salamence is broken, please ban.

Post Script MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!

Real talk tho, mega mence is op because you can just kill everything with an eZ dedge (nothing likes to catch a dedge straight to tha mouth), or you can subdd, or you can do pretty much whatever you want because jirachi redirects the attacks. Also, if you're in an unfavorable situation, then fucking switch out this is doubles, holy shit, why is switching such a foreign concept (switching only works in OU), and nobody who's anti ban knows how to use mence, or has ever looked at its stats or ability or anything. This is a completely objective statement, I have full smogon moderator support, and can we plz for the love of god ban the stupidest fkn mega to grace the doubles tier!!!!

edit: when I said stupidest mega to grace the doubles tier, I meant besides mega kang. Sorry about the confusion

SECOND EDIT: ok I legit don't know what I was thinking when I posted this, so let me make a real post. Mega Salamence is incredibly powerful. Its stats, ability, and typing all help it dominate most of the tier, and on top of that, it is also by far the most centralizing mon in the tier. If you don't have at least one dedicated mence counter, or 2-3 checks, you simply lose the game. I honestly don't think redirection is even what makes mence OP. The fact that a neutral Double-edge can bop most of the tier, while it barely sustains any damage itself, make it the sole destroyer or hyper/balanced offense (bear with me as I use buzz words to sound like I know what I'm talking about). I don't need to provide calcs or evidence, because other people already did that. Just trust me, it's broken! ban mega mence!!!
 
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I think Salamence is a monster and extremely good in the current meta. A lot of the arguments in favor of banning mega mence stem from the fact that they're using it wrong, and are calling it bad because they can't use it. It's going to take quite some doing to get Mega Salamence to +1/+1 and behind a Substitute, and if you just disregard your winplan or the opponent's side of the field or whatever, you ain't finna win games. First of all, it takes two moveslots to get this degree of setup, and secondly, a lot of people here are falling back on 'redirection' as an argument. A lot of things are threatening given proper redirection. Heck, even NP (Footnote: Level 51, wtf is NP?) Mega Houndoom can be threatening, provided it gets a similar chance at setup. We should suspect redirection, and do a complex ban that prevents 2 pokemon from being allowed on the field at the same time when one of them learns rage powder, and another learns protect, and then spore and follow me are part of the complex ban, and so is kangaskhanite (sorry pwnemon I swear that was a mistype)
I don't feel like opposing everything else right now, but redirection is only broken in this specific scenario for many reasons. Mega Houndoom can easily be beaten with any scarf rock slide/earthquake in the meta. MegaMence is only weak to hyper voice, rock slide, and blizzard. Jirachi can easily beat any of these attacking types with a super effective iron head or by just using TWave and just let Mega Mence do the work. In addition, any non stab Rock Slide is gonna do piss damage, especially if it is -1, but most other threats that spam these moves won't be faster than Mega Mence, and it can probably KO it with a STAB/Coverage move anyway, even if it is unboosted, with only slight prior damage (which can be obtained by Jirachi while Mence Protects). This is also basically my reason why Tailwind+Blizzard Suicune is the best check imo.
 

shaian

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NP = Nasty Plot, which bumps SpA up 2 stages, which would put MF Houndoom at 758 after 1 use.

also you want to ban Protect + Follow Me / Rage Powder on the field at the same time? Non DDance Mence sets are garbage? I'm not sure if your whole post is a joke or not.

For the record, I'm on the fence about banning Mega Salamence, though at the moment I'm leaning towards yes. I think part of the issue revolving around it is that it actually has incredible versatility being able to run special, mixed, and physical sets with considerable proficiency, and on top of that it has the sub+ddance set which is definitely over-centralizing, since I've also seen very niche sets and strategies being used to try and contain Salamence. Another issue is that the common Jirachi + Salamence pair has virtually no switch-ins, barring like Rhyperior, because Mence can either setup or just go for an attack which will quite likely 2hko regardless of whether or not its at +1. And any attempts to contain it by just targeting Jirachi means that mence has room to just put dents in shit. Also going off Lolk's list of attacks mence is weak to, Pixilate Hyper Voice, Rock Slide, Blizzard, almost all the common users of those moves just die. Bulky Sylveons die to Return + Iron Head, Gardevoir just dies to Return, if Rock Slides not coming from Rhyperior or LO Terrakion its almost a joke to mence, and frankly most blizzard users bar like Aboma (who dies to return, or return + iron head if sashed) or kyurem, are probably better off not having to use it in the first place.

On the other hand it's forcing innovation or something? idk i'll figure it out probably
 
Another issue is that the common Jirachi + Salamence pair has virtually no switch-ins, barring like Rhyperior, because Mence can either setup or just go for an attack which will quite likely 2hko regardless of whether or not its at +1.
I mean Rhyperior doesnt care for the life of him what physical mence does, +0 Dedge is like a 4hko, but Iron heads are a 2hko with a 100% flinch rate.

Also are you guys for real about using blizzard? in my experience 70% accurate moves are hella bad, like mence just dodges like two of those in a row eZ.

Anyways, what i wanna know is how's the metagame supposed to evolve in the however many years we are gonna be in ORAS if everyone has to run these really specific checks? It's gonna be uber stagnant, which really isnt healthy so ban imo.
 

Empress

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i literally said that the moves help against MORE THAN one pokemon ;__;
That may be true, but you never saw those moves before Mega Mence entered the tier. Scarf HP Ice Rotom is not only a waste of what Rotom does, but for most of the things that it hits with HP Ice it can hit with Hydro Pump. The exceptions are Skymin, Garchomp and Mega Sceptile, but AFAIK, Rotom never ran HP Ice to check the former two.

Also are you guys for real about using blizzard? in my experience 70% accurate moves are hella bad, like mence just dodges like two of those in a row eZ.
Yes, 70 Accuracy sucks. But Icy Wind's damage output is pitiful, and its utility of reducing Speed isn't major if you're running Tailwind alongside it. (Note I'm mainly talking about Suicune here.) Ice Beam can be redirected by the proper partner, often making it a suboptimal choice. Also, Mence won't always be able to avoid those Blizzards- bad luck on the Mence player means it will die after being hit. Which, admittedly, is far from enough to consider Blizzard a reliable answer. It just goes to show how we're basically scraping the bottom of the barrel to take out Mega Mence, which shows the unhealthy influence it has on the tier.

I think Salamence is a monster and extremely good in the current meta. A lot of the arguments in favor of banning mega mence stem from the fact that they're using it wrong, and are calling it bad because they can't use it. It's going to take quite some doing to get Mega Salamence to +1/+1 and behind a Substitute, and if you just disregard your winplan or the opponent's side of the field or whatever, you ain't finna win games. First of all, it takes two moveslots to get this degree of setup, and secondly, a lot of people here are falling back on 'redirection' as an argument. A lot of things are threatening given proper redirection. Heck, even NP (Footnote: Level 51, wtf is NP?) Mega Houndoom can be threatening, provided it gets a similar chance at setup. We should suspect redirection, and do a complex ban that prevents 2 pokemon from being allowed on the field at the same time when one of them learns rage powder, and another learns protect, and then spore and follow me are part of the complex ban, and so is kangaskhanite (sorry pwnemon I swear that was a mistype)

Mega Salamence's natural bulk work is pretty fkin naturally beastly and amazing. Its 95/130/90 defences are extremely helpful for setting up, and letting it set up is quite figuratively asking to lose. Substitute takes out an eZ amount of its health which it cannot recover unless it takes another moveslot or uses roost (other moveslots are [irrelevant] B. Bad[] or whatever moves you want to use to win every game easily because you're using mega mence. Sandstorm and Hail obstreperous this condition, and of course spread moves and attacks in general can provide some degree of annoyance if you don't get your redirector in / your Substitute up in time. Mence has too much control over its own speed, making stopping it more difficult than any other threat.

On the other hand, if you use Mega Salamence without Dragon Dance, you're forgoing a lot of the potential power Mega Salamence could have fucking garbage, and you're leaving it rather vulnerable to Landorus-T, Heatran, Aegislash, Rotom-W, and so on, which are all very common in this tier. Mega Salamence without Substitute is in a similar boat literally the worst set imaginable, and gets whittled down by Intimidate and spread moves in general since it no longer has a Substitute to block Intimidate and soak up hits.

What I'm trying to say is that Mega Salamence is broken, please ban.

Post Script MUST READ!!!!!!!!!!

Real talk tho, mega mence is op because you can just kill everything with an eZ dedge (nothing likes to catch a dedge straight to tha mouth), or you can subdd, or you can do pretty much whatever you want because jirachi redirects the attacks. Also, if you're in an unfavorable situation, then fucking switch out this is doubles, holy shit, why is switching such a foreign concept (switching only works in OU), and nobody who's anti ban knows how to use mence, or has ever looked at its stats or ability or anything. This is a completely objective statement, I have full smogon moderator support, and can we plz for the love of god ban the stupidest fkn mega to grace the doubles tier!!!!

edit: when I said stupidest mega to grace the doubles tier, I meant besides mega kang. Sorry about the confusion

SECOND EDIT: ok I legit don't know what I was thinking when I posted this, so let me make a real post. Mega Salamence is incredibly powerful. Its stats, ability, and typing all help it dominate most of the tier, and on top of that, it is also by far the most centralizing mon in the tier. If you don't have at least one dedicated mence counter, or 2-3 checks, you simply lose the game. I honestly don't think redirection is even what makes mence OP. The fact that a neutral Double-edge can bop most of the tier, while it barely sustains any damage itself, make it the sole destroyer or hyper/balanced offense (bear with me as I use buzz words to sound like I know what I'm talking about). I don't need to provide calcs or evidence, because other people already did that. Just trust me, it's broken! ban mega mence!!!
Please tell me you were joking in everything before "second edit". While your second edit certainly is a bit more serious than everything before it, you're not "barely sustaining any damage" by using Double-Edge. There's a reason why most Mega Mence run Return instead. And even if everyone has stated some stuff that you planned to say, make sure you credit your source, and explain why they are correct. Though most of what you say is true to a degree (in "Second Edit" only, for the most part), you need more here to back it up. (DISCLAIMER: Not trying to be a mini mod here.)

On the other hand it's forcing innovation or something? idk i'll figure it out probably
Forcing innovation is basically another way of saying "over centralizing". Keeping Mence in the tier to create new strategies is not healthy when said strategies revolve around killing Mega Mence and doing little more outside of that. Hopefully this will help you lean a little more toward "yes".

Also, ladder is bad. I can attest to that, as I ended up top 15 of Doubles Suspect.
I can confirm as well. Former top 11 on the Suspect ladder right here.

Also Lolk, minor nitpick, but EQ is a far more common coverage move than Aqua Tail. Still reduces Diancie from a counter to a mere check, though, so no big deal.
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 164-194 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 246-290 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For those who don't use Diancie, keep in mind it doesn't usually invest in defenses, hence the 0/0 EVs.

EDIT: There, tagged the right one.
 
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I mean Rhyperior doesnt care for the life of him what physical mence does, +0 Dedge is like a 4hko
252 Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 255-303 (58.7 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 106-126 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO

While Earthquake doesn't do too much, Aqua Tail blasts it to bits. Water moves are amazing on Megamence anyway for bulky Rocks like this and Tyranitar.

Rhyperior can't OHKO Megamence if it's Intimidated, so it has to switch in or come in after a KO to oneshot.

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But more seriously for Rhyperior, Megamence is causing a serious rise in bulky waters. The low end of Scalds, from uninvested Suicunes, do far too much.

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 381-450 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

A water type needs 248 special attack to OHKO Rhyperior with Scald. That's less than what they need to OHKO Megamence with Ice Beam. If they run Hydro Pump, then Rhyperior is boned. Unless Megamence unexpectedly and suddenly grows Wild Charge or something else Electric to efficiently counteract the bulky waters, Rhyperior is collateral damage.
 

Lord Alphose

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252 Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 255-303 (58.7 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 106-126 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO

While Earthquake doesn't do too much, Aqua Tail blasts it to bits. Water moves are amazing on Megamence anyway for bulky Rocks like this and Tyranitar.

Rhyperior can't OHKO Megamence if it's Intimidated, so it has to switch in or come in after a KO to oneshot.

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But more seriously for Rhyperior, Megamence is causing a serious rise in bulky waters. The low end of Scalds, from uninvested Suicunes, do far too much.

0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 381-450 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

A water type needs 248 special attack to OHKO Rhyperior with Scald. That's less than what they need to OHKO Megamence with Ice Beam. If they run Hydro Pump, then Rhyperior is boned. Unless Megamence unexpectedly and suddenly grows Wild Charge or something else Electric to efficiently counteract the bulky waters, Rhyperior is collateral damage.
Frankly, this argument is aside the point of actually suspecting Salamence. The idea is that Rhyperior may check Salamence, but, like I said, it is just another uncommon Pokemon in doubles. Plus, it's pretty easily beaten by Amoongus or Jirachi, some of Mence's favorite partners, and it doesn't even like to deal with Salamence when it's Intimidated, making it a somewhat unreliable answer to Salamence.

EditL lol, I'm a freaking idiot. I forgot how doubles works, thanks srk1214. But, I'd still rather use EQ than Aqua Tail. But maybe that's just me.
 
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The heavenly powers from above made me see the light, and I'm sorry about being shit in my previous post :]
For those who were wondering (apparently it wasn't clear), my first post was just me being a retard again (nothing new here rite?)

Ok, here are my actual thoughts about Mega Salamence. As I stated in my esteemed "second edit", Mega Mence's stats, ability, and typing all help it dominate most of the doubles tier. Obviously, Mega Mence has counters, but people need to remember that if they are building around Mega Mence, they would do well to pack answers to its checks and counters. Many Mence checks, such as rotom-w and rhyperior lose to common partners like amoonguss, and other checks/counters like rotom-h lose to special sets with hydro pump, etc. The point is, although people can run all sorts of obscure pokemon to counter/check it, mence can easily return the favor by running its own obscure sets. Once we put the issue of checking mence behind us, the only issue remaining is how powerful the pokemon itself is. Shoutout to Hashtag for first bringing up that mega mence happens to have a higher BST than the demon god itself, rayquaza. I'm not going to get into some convoluted shitstorm of unbanning rayquaza, but I do want to say this: although rayquaza has the benefit of being able to hold an item, mence arguably has much better abilities both when non mega and mega. I think it's safe to say that mega mence is at least comparable to rayquaza, and that this only solidifes the basis of it being an extremely powerful pokemon. Lastly, I want to address the point of overcentralization. While it has already been shown that teams that completely counter mence will beat it pretty easily, people tend to forget that the only reason they build the teams they do is because mence is in the tier. If you don't bring some dedicated mence checks, you are sure to lose a battle against a good player using mence. If you guys really want to play a meta where one has to account for mence on every single team, then go ahead and vote no ban. I, however, think that banning the monster that is mega mence is a necessary step toward preserving the balance that the doubles metagame is known for.
 

Bughouse

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Rhyperior is the only Pokemon that takes more damage from Aqua Tail, and it's relatively uncommon. You mention how Water moves are nice for hitting bulky Rock-types. You do realize that Earthquake still hits bulky Rock-types(with the exception of Rhyperior) harder, right?
This is a minor point, but no. Earthquake has spread reduction factored in, while Aqua Tail does not. Aqua Tail hits all Rocks harder than Earthquake.

252 Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 

Fangame10

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I'm just going to say while I'm not a supporter of banning pokemon, mega mence seems overcentralizing to me. Like I and others will say that Trick room can beat it but...being forced to use Trick room or another strategy specifically desgined to counter mence is not something that's healthy for a fun meta like doubles. Which is why things like Dark void are banned here because of their potential to force players to make strategies around them.. #TrickroomCounters. But unlike Trick room or semi room which can be played around easily, Mega mence has the threat of killing its own counters and possibly has none under a good player. Esentially that's like if there was a Trick room user like Cressilia but had all the offense of and typing of a chandelure as well as bulk. While it has a low SpD which can be played around using...err I dunno Arorus or something similar if you really hate this thing and you needed to beat it. but under skilled players with the capability to predict past counters such as Trick room, most ice pokemon(They get ohko by mence anyways). the only legit pokemon I find can beat this thing are bulky defensive dragon type pokemon..but why would you use that for anything other than CTing Mega mence? while I'm probably not going to vote, Mega mence dose have qualities that do infact make him overcentralizing..and if people do not like overcentralized metas then they're only option should be to nerf or ban things.
 
Probably breaking a major rule here by not ever having played a game of gen 6 smogdubs but here goes.

I think Mega Salamence is perfectly manageable in VGC 15 the way it is now. It's powerful there as well, but it has quite a few definite checks that are themselves some of the most powerful Pokemon in the format and it's simple enough to prevent it from doing whatever it wants if you're really committed to beating it (unlike Mega Kangaskhan was to VGC 14). However, there are a few things about smogon doubles that I could see making Salamence significantly more difficult to control that have no analogue in VGC:

- Jirachi. I actually forgot this was still legal in doubles lol. It makes sense why Mega Salamence would be difficult to handle if you also have to deal with Jirachi. Typewise, Salamence + Metagross has been one of the stronger pairings in doubles since its inception because Salamence could beat Fire-types 1v1 and provide cover against Earthquakes with Intimidate, while Metagross could mash through Rock types, Ice types, and Latios for Salamence. Replace Metagross with Jirachi, which due to some random event move it got in another generation can also draw away Ice Beams, all worthwhile Dragon moves, Stone Edge, and Moonblasts into a resist while being one of the bulkiest redirect users in the game, and replace Salamence with Mega Salamence and you have a duo that has very little to stop it even in concept.

- Trick Room doesn't cover as much of a match. There's no denying that Trick Room is a very powerful option against Salamence. Without speed advantage it has a hard time taking Rock Slides even with its high base defense, and it opens up opportunities for Pokemon like Sylveon and Abomasnow to straight KO it when they really wouldn't have a chance otherwise. With six Pokemon it is a lot more feasible to keep Salamence off the field for 5 turns and then come in and start doing work. It's also notable that the aforementioned Jirachi can also carry Trick Room itself to reverse it for Salamence. Salamence may be airplane Jesus with the ability to 2HKO basically everything that resists Flying with insert-coverage-move-here, but that doesn't stop Trick Room and Ice Beams from putting it 85% to death in one go...except Jirachi definitely can stop both of those things.

- 6v6 gives Salamence more space to wait in the wings for the optimal time to come in. Even if you somehow have Salamence + redirect on lock and force it out of action, it has double the slots to retreat to compared to 4v4 and can not only stay out of danger for longer, it can still harass the opponent in non-mega form when required rather than going for the big money.

Do I think Mega Salamence is broken? No idea, I don't play this tier. I can't tell if it's legitimately breaking this metagame in half or if you guys just suck lol. I can only suggest to you, when figuring out how to deal with Salamence or if it's even worthwhile to, that you address the qualities about Salamence in smogdubs that boost it from being "a very good mega" to "wtf was Game Freak smoking" status.
 

chimpact

fire nation
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Didn't really see a reason to ban Salamence. Fairies are pretty common to deal with dragons. Although ice types (from my experience) are pretty awful, almost every water type carries an ice move. You need a lot of investment to ohko 4/0 mence with ice beam, (275 Special attack) but you don't really need to take it out in one shot.

My team was built to handle it pretty well, but its not like it was intentionally catered to specifically beat it. It was a rain team featuring sylveon and heatran. Heatran had rocks and sylveon had pixelate quick attack so with the chip damage it was tough for salamence to survive long. Only swampert (and to an extent, sylveon) cared about intimidate on my squad so landorus/mence really lost a lot of utility.

i feel like Mence does a lot better against "fair teams". I was using rain which has strong match ups against a lot of other teams. And it has like 3 ice attacks to deal with mence anyway. like with damp rock you can't stall out rain turns as effectively with protect like you could against trick room. Teams featuring just solid mons like shaymin/kanga/land/thund might struggle with salamence a bit more than teams with a theme like rain/sun/trick room.
 
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Didn't really see a reason to ban Salamence. Fairies are pretty common to deal with dragons. Although ice types (from my experience) are pretty awful, almost every water type carries an ice move. You need a lot of investment to ohko 4/0 mence with ice beam, (275 Special attack) but you don't really need to take it out in one shot.

My team was built to handle it pretty well, but its not like it was intentionally catered to specifically beat it. It was a rain team featuring sylveon and heatran. Heatran had rocks and sylveon had pixelate quick attack so with the chip damage it was tough for salamence to survive long. Only swampert (and to an extent, sylveon) cared about intimidate on my squad so landorus/mence really lost a lot of utility.

i feel like Mence does a lot better against "fair teams". I was using rain which has strong match ups against a lot of other teams. And it has like 3 ice attacks to deal with mence anyway. like with damp rock you can't stall out rain turns as effectively with protect like you could against trick room. Teams featuring just solid mons like shaymin/kanga/land/thund might struggle with salamence a bit more than teams with a theme like rain/sun/trick room.
A rain team with sylveon and heatran is basically a mega mence CT lol.
 
Didn't really see a reason to ban Salamence. Fairies are pretty common to deal with dragons. Although ice types (from my experience) are pretty awful, almost every water type carries an ice move. You need a lot of investment to ohko 4/0 mence with ice beam, (275 Special attack) but you don't really need to take it out in one shot.
Yo most fairies get ohkoed by +1 return, and even at neutral it still does a lot. Also tbh while 4/0 mence is more common a bulky dd mega mence is probably the best mega mence spread you could use.

Anyways on to my opinion about mega mence I personally think mega mence should be banned, like most people in favor or banning mence have said the DD set is extremely good. While other sets are good I personally feel the only set that makes mence ban worthy is the DD set.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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+1 return (much less Double Edge) ohkos sylveon, which is why he was running QA lol. Meanwhile, QA is still probably only doing like 20%.

Swampert shouldn't have been a concern. +1 Mence with an intelligent speed investment outruns +2 Swampert. All I can conclude is that chimpact faced incredibly incompetent Mence users.
 
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