-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
And no Spore. Not saying it's bad, but that's a really poor comparison given Toxic Heal and Spore are the two things that make Toxicheal Breloom used at all.
I don't know how this hasn't been pointed out yet, but the Cobalion sprite in the OP is the outdated BW one.
Here's the Gen 6 one.
Also, a few Pokémon seem to have gotten new sprites in ORAS such as Sableye and Diancie. I Don't know why but I guess they just wanted to give some sort of small spotlight to the new Mega Evolution capable 'mon, so if anyone could find the new sprites that'd be cool.
Also, a few Pokémon seem to have gotten new sprites in ORAS such as Sableye and Diancie. I Don't know why but I guess they just wanted to give some sort of small spotlight to the new Mega Evolution capable 'mon, so if anyone could find the new sprites that'd be cool.
Psyshock is very, very commong on MegaBro from what I've seen... On non CroBro anyway, it's usually Scald / Ice Beam / Psyshock | Fire-type move / Slack Off, right? Verizion is not only weak to Psyshock AND Ice Beam, but Psyshock doesn't care about how many Calm Minds Veriz has and hits its weaker Defense. I don't see how Verizion is really a counter at all... Also, with Chesnaught and Breloom filling the "cool Grass/Fighting type" niche, Verizion doesn't have even a very good niche to fill... Cool Pokemon, but not really that great in OU; opportunity cost is too great.
I want to nominate Diancie to go up from C- to C+. Apart from steel type moves, it's really, really hard to OHKO, and it has rocks and screens it can set up. While it isn't designed to be an attacker, it has two reliable STABs that cover plenty of important stuff. For example, Gren dies if it switches in on Moonblast, and Talonflame loses 100% of the time to Diamond Storm. Speaking of Diamond Storm, after a few boosts it becomes really hard to beat on the physical side if your opponent lacks Bisharp, Megagross or the rare and subpar flash cannon Heatran.
Also, Mega-Amp should move up to B-. Remember all the Rampardos hype in gen 4? This is a special Rampardos with bulk, a better offensive and defensive typing, doesn't care about burn or paralysis and has good coverage. In raw power it fails to stallbreak, but it rips apart so much of offensive teams after a single turn of set up. Oh, and did I mention that it can't be thunder waved by Thundurus or revenge killed by Talonflame? B- for Mega-Amp.
Also, Mega-Amp should move up to B-. Remember all the Rampardos hype in gen 4? This is a special Rampardos with bulk, a better offensive and defensive typing, doesn't care about burn or paralysis and has good coverage. In raw power it fails to stallbreak, but it rips apart so much of offensive teams after a single turn of set up. Oh, and did I mention that it can't be thunder waved by Thundurus or revenge killed by Talonflame? B- for Mega-Amp.
We're only discussing the B rank and anything above right now.
I don't usually post much in this thread but I think I'll make an exception
Alakazam (Mega): With the advent of Mega Sableye, this thing got quite a bit worse vs stall, as we all know. It can technically get past both Chansey and Sableye with a moveset of CM / Dazzling Gleam / Psyshock / Focus Blast but dropping Shadow Ball means that psychic types will wall it. It gained utility against offense with all the new super-fast stuff running around, but let's not forget that it has to run Timid to actually perform as a revenge killer against the new threats, which means it suffers from an unpleasant drop of power. So I'd say this thing has become slightly worse overall with ORAS. It can drop to B imo, but I don't mind if it stays B+
Breloom: I honestly think Loom got better with ORAS, mainly due to its SD Toxic Orb set which is a nightmare for stall teams to deal with, while the standard Sash set with its variations (I've seen people running Force Palm for example) is still great against offense. There's also the LO Focus Punch set which is really underrated as it hits like a truck and can open up some good holes for its teammates to capitalize on, plus it carries a significant surprise factor. Its sets are all a bit matchup-based (Toxic Orb being deadwheight against offense, Sash being deadwheight against stall) but this is not difficult to patch up with the appropriate teammates. Bump to A-.
Celebi: This thing is good. Like, really really good, as it checks and counters a great amount of stuff defensively thanks to its typing and ability while actually adding more than that to your team due to its impressive movepool. It can set up rocks, it can pass boosts and provide momentum with Baton Pass, it can break bulky stuff such as CM Slowbro with NP, it is one of the few pokemon with access to the coveted Healing Wish...it does everything you need! A- is a no-brainer atm, it probably deserves it more than Breloom.
Chansey: I don't really like this mon. While the only team archetype this thing thrives in got a huge buff in ORAS, Chansey itself is pretty bad in my opinion due to being the definition of a setup bait for a portion of the metagame that's too relevant. Also, as somebody said before, Mega Sableye is also one of those things. I think the blob is really too exploitable for a Pokemon that resides in the A-ranks, so i think it's fine in B+. Fat trash.
Dragonite: It was one of my favourite pokemon to use in XY OU, but the introduction of Mega Altaria really sucked for it, as Altaria walls the traditional CBnite. Dragonite can get past it with Iron Tail but that forces it to drop valuable coverage against steel types. DD sets didn't get better either. B+ is fine for it.
Hippowdon: I agree on moving this guy up. It beats a great number of new / rising threats while taking repeated hits without getting worn down easily due to its reliable recovery, which is incredibly useful when many offensive teams aim to overload the opposing walls. It's not a sitting duck either, STAB Earthquake packs quite a punch due to Hippo's naturally high Attack stat, it can phaze, set up SR reliably (not beating Mega Sableye sucks though), spread Toxic, plus it can use Stone Edge for a more offensive approach to KO Pinsir and Thundurus. Solid A-
I'll write more stuff when I'll be less tired i guess.
I'll write more stuff when I'll be less tired i guess.
I think you are missing the point of why Mega Zam is where it is. It's not a stallbreaker by any means, and it doesn't break down walls by itself either. It's in B+ because it outspeeds the entire unScarfed meta and can revenge Weather sweepers. If anything it got more valuable in ORAS because it can take on Beedrill, Sceptile and Lopunny on addition to everything in could in XY. Dropping Zam for it's loss of stallbreaking ability isn't the correct course of action imo, if anything the case for it staying where it is now is stronger due to it's value against HO and the resurgence in Rain teams.I don't usually post much in this thread but I think I'll make an exception
Alakazam (Mega): With the advent of Mega Sableye, this thing got quite a bit worse vs stall, as we all know. It can technically get past both Chansey and Sableye with a moveset of CM / Dazzling Gleam / Psyshock / Focus Blast but dropping Shadow Ball means that psychic types will wall it. It gained utility against offense with all the new super-fast stuff running around, but let's not forget that it has to run Timid to actually perform as a revenge killer against the new threats, which means it suffers from an unpleasant drop of power. So I'd say this thing has become slightly worse overall with ORAS. It can drop to B imo, but I don't mind if it stays B+
just something i wanted to say
Stay at B+
Mega Alakazam is actually really fun to use. It has good offensive stats, and is amazing at outspeeding the majority of all the new mega evolutions, which is absolutely great, considering it holds one of the best Speed tiers right now, beating the common 110 Speed tier and even outspeeding Greninja. This, itself, is enough to warrant a high ranking. It hits reasonably hard - a bit outdamaged by its LO mega form, but that's not too major - and it also has the right coverage, in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, not to mention that STAB Psyshock / Psychic are really strong.
Mega Alakazam also is one of the few Pokemon in the metagame that can outspeed 252+ Mega Altaria after a Dragon Dance, I'd say that's very major and in itself warrants a high rank.
Of course, this isn't a bad of good things given that mega alakazam loses to priority and heavily relies on OHKOing the opponent but I also want to mention how great and underrated its ability is. With trace, you copy sand rush from excadrill, protean from greninja, and even levitate from latios. These seem like gimmicks, but i have used this to my advantage and have won multiple games because of these.
These are all very basic things, but the combination of high Special Attack and high Speed is an easy B+ rank in my mind.
Stay at B+
Mega Alakazam is actually really fun to use. It has good offensive stats, and is amazing at outspeeding the majority of all the new mega evolutions, which is absolutely great, considering it holds one of the best Speed tiers right now, beating the common 110 Speed tier and even outspeeding Greninja. This, itself, is enough to warrant a high ranking. It hits reasonably hard - a bit outdamaged by its LO mega form, but that's not too major - and it also has the right coverage, in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, not to mention that STAB Psyshock / Psychic are really strong.
Mega Alakazam also is one of the few Pokemon in the metagame that can outspeed 252+ Mega Altaria after a Dragon Dance, I'd say that's very major and in itself warrants a high rank.
Of course, this isn't a bad of good things given that mega alakazam loses to priority and heavily relies on OHKOing the opponent but I also want to mention how great and underrated its ability is. With trace, you copy sand rush from excadrill, protean from greninja, and even levitate from latios. These seem like gimmicks, but i have used this to my advantage and have won multiple games because of these.
These are all very basic things, but the combination of high Special Attack and high Speed is an easy B+ rank in my mind.
A couple of nominations.
B --> B+ / A-
Improved in ORAS. CB Bullet Punch OHKOes common Pokemon like Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria lacking defensive investment, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Beedrill, and Gengar and deals a large amount of damage to Mega Gallade, Latios, Latias, and Mega Sceptile. U-Turn and Pursuit are great tools to capitalize on the large amount of switches scizor forces, allowing scizor to escape from its counters and create mind games with pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, mega Alakazam, Greninja, Beedrill, etc. respectively. It also has a couple of other viable sets such as Bulky and offensive SD.
B --> B-
Mega Latios isn't terrible, but it has a number of flaws that push it down to B- Rank in my opinion. One of Latios's is biggest advantages over Latias is its extra firepower. However Mega Latios does not have this advantage at all as it pretty much hits just as hard as LO Latias and still carries most disadvantages that Latios has over Latias along with an absurd amount of opportunity cost. I guess offensive Calm Mind and lack of LO recoil are two advantages it has over Regular Latios and Latias, but I really don't think that's enough to keep it in B.
Improved in ORAS. CB Bullet Punch OHKOes common Pokemon like Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria lacking defensive investment, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Beedrill, and Gengar and deals a large amount of damage to Mega Gallade, Latios, Latias, and Mega Sceptile. U-Turn and Pursuit are great tools to capitalize on the large amount of switches scizor forces, allowing scizor to escape from its counters and create mind games with pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, mega Alakazam, Greninja, Beedrill, etc. respectively. It also has a couple of other viable sets such as Bulky and offensive SD.
Mega Latios isn't terrible, but it has a number of flaws that push it down to B- Rank in my opinion. One of Latios's is biggest advantages over Latias is its extra firepower. However Mega Latios does not have this advantage at all as it pretty much hits just as hard as LO Latias and still carries most disadvantages that Latios has over Latias along with an absurd amount of opportunity cost. I guess offensive Calm Mind and lack of LO recoil are two advantages it has over Regular Latios and Latias, but I really don't think that's enough to keep it in B.
Diancie can lose to +2 Talonflame if it misses one diamond storm and has some chip damage.
Proof: +2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryA couple of nominations.
B --> B+ / A-
Improved in ORAS. CB Bullet Punch OHKOes common Pokemon like Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria lacking defensive investment, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Beedrill, and Gengar and deals a large amount of damage to Mega Gallade, Latios, Latias, and Mega Sceptile. U-Turn and Pursuit are great tools to capitalize on the large amount of switches scizor forces, allowing scizor to escape from its counters and create mind games with pokemon such as Mega Gardevoir, mega Alakazam, Greninja, Beedrill, etc. respectively. It also has a couple of other viable sets such as Bulky and offensive SD.
B --> B-
Mega Latios isn't terrible, but it has a number of flaws that push it down to B- Rank in my opinion. One of Latios's is biggest advantages over Latias is its extra firepower. However Mega Latios does not have this advantage at all as it pretty much hits just as hard as LO Latias and still carries most disadvantages that Latios has over Latias along with an absurd amount of opportunity cost. I guess offensive Calm Mind and lack of LO recoil are two advantages it has over Regular Latios and Latias, but I really don't think that's enough to keep it in B.
252 SpA Mega Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 172-203 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Latios Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 180-214 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The power difference is minuscule really for the benefit of not taking Life Orb Recoil so not sure why people keep emphasizing this to establish that M-Latios is worse than Latios. M-Latios loses the benefits of using items such as Choice Scarf which could be considered an opportunity cost to an extent so there's that but not such a huge burden really. For the most part M-Latios can function exactly the same as Latios. The difference, and the reason why it's ranked so low compared to its counterpart, is that it's a mega with overall redundant values outside of some very specific assets such as higher attack and a bit more bulk. So with that said it's really the fact you can use regular Latios and a mega instead of just using latios as a mega that would for the most part perform the same functions. B- is too low for something that can still be effective but has opportunity cost for simply being a mega.
No real opinions on Scizor.
It doesn't really make sense when everything needs to be taken into account with each other in how they fair in the meta as a whole. Making two lists is jut unrealistic and that would be like making two ladders since you're basically representing different metagames. Unless I'm missing your point though.
The amount of oppurtunities that you get to sweep with Protean megazam are absurd.just something i wanted to say
Stay at B+
Mega Alakazam is actually really fun to use. It has good offensive stats, and is amazing at outspeeding the majority of all the new mega evolutions, which is absolutely great, considering it holds one of the best Speed tiers right now, beating the common 110 Speed tier and even outspeeding Greninja. This, itself, is enough to warrant a high ranking. It hits reasonably hard - a bit outdamaged by its LO mega form, but that's not too major - and it also has the right coverage, in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, not to mention that STAB Psyshock / Psychic are really strong.
Mega Alakazam also is one of the few Pokemon in the metagame that can outspeed 252+ Mega Altaria after a Dragon Dance, I'd say that's very major and in itself warrants a high rank.
Of course, this isn't a bad of good things given that mega alakazam loses to priority and heavily relies on OHKOing the opponent but I also want to mention how great and underrated its ability is. With trace, you copy sand rush from excadrill, protean from greninja, and even levitate from latios. These seem like gimmicks, but i have used this to my advantage and have won multiple games because of these.
These are all very basic things, but the combination of high Special Attack and high Speed is an easy B+ rank in my mind.
Edit: To elaborate, you can come in on any of greninja's moves and proceed to OHKO it back, assuming it isn't running sash with 100% HP. Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, and other moves can all be switched in on after a Pokemon has been KO'd, and you can sweep the team after KOing
Last edited:
What do you mean with LO mega form? If you are Mega you CANT carry LO.just something i wanted to say
Stay at B+
Mega Alakazam is actually really fun to use. It has good offensive stats, and is amazing at outspeeding the majority of all the new mega evolutions, which is absolutely great, considering it holds one of the best Speed tiers right now, beating the common 110 Speed tier and even outspeeding Greninja. This, itself, is enough to warrant a high ranking. It hits reasonably hard - a bit outdamaged by its LO mega form, but that's not too major - and it also has the right coverage, in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, not to mention that STAB Psyshock / Psychic are really strong.
Mega Alakazam also is one of the few Pokemon in the metagame that can outspeed 252+ Mega Altaria after a Dragon Dance, I'd say that's very major and in itself warrants a high rank.
Of course, this isn't a bad of good things given that mega alakazam loses to priority and heavily relies on OHKOing the opponent but I also want to mention how great and underrated its ability is. With trace, you copy sand rush from excadrill, protean from greninja, and even levitate from latios. These seem like gimmicks, but i have used this to my advantage and have won multiple games because of these.
These are all very basic things, but the combination of high Special Attack and high Speed is an easy B+ rank in my mind.
Ok I realize that I've been absent from OU for a while, but someone is going to have to explain to me what Gyarados is doing in B+ while Mega Aerodactyl and Manaphy are sitting pretty in A-. We're talking about one of the most amazing sweepers in the tier with the ability to set up on the broken frog and crush offensive teams in Moxie-induced sweeps, or set up on Ferrothorn without Power Whip and have them never be able to break your sub with Intimidate. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. With Intimidate, you set up on Ferrothorn and it can't break your sub. How amazing is that? A Pokemon that gets a free sub and boost off one of the most common switch-ins to its mega forme. Not to mention the ability to gain 12% of your health back at any time thanks to Bounce + Leftovers. But the thing that makes Gyarados so good is how splashable it is. It checks Keldeo, Greninja, Landorus, Heatran, Mega Gallade, and that's just with the lefties DD set. If moxie sets get a free turn, you may as well click x because Gyarados is going to sweep you. The only thing that is even kind of a problem for Gyarados is the rise in Rotom-W's viability. But even then, against sub sets, it is forced to keep taking rocks damage and potentially Waterfall/Bounce damage since its only move to hit you forces it to switch out. So yeah please move Gyarados to at least A- if not A right next to its Mega.
I'll repeat why Mamoswine drop? Is the best Ice pokemon in all the whole game, I don't know why drop him...
Mamoswine dropped because its lead set got worse, as Mega Sableye hard counters it, and Mega Lopunny can also anti-lead Mamoswine with Fake Out + HJK. This basically leaves Mamoswine with only one effective set, the all out attacker.
Gyarados can't set up on Greninja because it gets 2HKOd by multiple moves.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 218-257 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 165-195 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 247-292 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 165-195 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
what he means is that gyarados can come in on a revenge kill, set up, and sweep from there.
Offensive spreads can setup at least once and KO anyway. Defensive (specially) spreads always avoid the 2hko.
How many ninjas run grass knot?
Who runs physical sets?
How many ninjas run grass knot?
Who runs physical sets?
A) 4/10 Greninjas run grass knot for suicune. (Trust me, my suicune always gets fucked by these on the ladder.)
B) Mixed sets with Low kick Gunk shot Dark pulse and Ice beam are fairly common
C) Those were two different spreads.
Ok, but don't you have to sacrifice a Pokemon to do that? That would be a pretty high cost for a Pokemon who's sweep is stopped by the fastest megas even at +1, he's outsped by the base 150+ megas if he's running jolly and the base 145+ if he's running adamant.
Last edited:
But not every team have an Mega Lopunny or Mega Sableye, That happen only in that "situational" cases, Also I din't see a Mega Lopunny with Fake Out + HJK, the set that I always see is HJK, Return, HW, AND IceP... you can build your team to cover that Fake Out + HJK with a simple "Protect" and retain intact the Focus Sash, In any case thanks by the answer...
- Status