Practically everything you listed is either:
A) Can't switch into Greninja unless you know all 4 of its moves.
B) Has set requirements before it can properly handle Greninja.
C) Easier to wall and handle than Greninja.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
A) Can't switch into Greninja unless you know all 4 of its moves.
B) Has set requirements before it can properly handle Greninja.
C) Easier to wall and handle than Greninja.
I think anyone arguing Greninja is totally broken or totally unbroken are being a tad hyperbolic. That said, he does need to be banned based on two primary things.
1. Speed tier. Anything commonly seen above this speed tier is often a mega that requires a turn to do so. It's just naturally fast enough to give the majority of balance and non-scarfed pokemon trouble.
2. Zero opportunity cost. There is nary a team that doesn't benefit from having Greninja on it. Whatever problems a core you are trying out is having, a Greninja can likely be added and use the coverage of your choice to specifically handle that threat. And because Greninja's movepool is SO big, you always have an advantage in terms of prediction. This is very similar to King's Shield Ageslash in that regard because the odds are almost universally in Greninja's favor.
Fact is 2/3 of common balance and HO teams are weak to this guy, and again, it's actually worse than Mega Salamence in the fact that it doesn't require a mega slot. Not that Greninja was close to as broken as that thing was, but in terms of opportunity cost, all teams can, and should, carry Greninja.
I love the thing, but it should be banned.
1. Speed tier. Anything commonly seen above this speed tier is often a mega that requires a turn to do so. It's just naturally fast enough to give the majority of balance and non-scarfed pokemon trouble.
2. Zero opportunity cost. There is nary a team that doesn't benefit from having Greninja on it. Whatever problems a core you are trying out is having, a Greninja can likely be added and use the coverage of your choice to specifically handle that threat. And because Greninja's movepool is SO big, you always have an advantage in terms of prediction. This is very similar to King's Shield Ageslash in that regard because the odds are almost universally in Greninja's favor.
Fact is 2/3 of common balance and HO teams are weak to this guy, and again, it's actually worse than Mega Salamence in the fact that it doesn't require a mega slot. Not that Greninja was close to as broken as that thing was, but in terms of opportunity cost, all teams can, and should, carry Greninja.
I love the thing, but it should be banned.
We do not do complex bans - we prefer to ban Pokemon instead of abilities. Kecleon and Frogadier also both get Protean, yet they are not broken in NU, and banning Protean from OU would ban Protean from all of the tiers below it as well.
"Excadrill really isn't that bad. There are a ton of bulky threats that can take a hit and stop it. Gliscor walls and KOs with Earthquake, Skarmory phazes, Bronzong walls it to hell. Heatran and Lucario can use Air Balloon to take anything from it and KO back. It's an excellent Pokemon, but so was Jirachi in Gen 4. No ban."
Having checks and counters != not broken. I can name at least three cover legendary Ubers that have checks and counters in OU. Analyze how Greninja affects playstyles (esp. offense) and the opportunity cost of running Greninja (if there is any at all)
Knight of Cydonia
I COULD BE BANNED!
Will quickly try and outline my thoughts on Greninja. I can see that most people, like me, feel that it is too much for OU.
What it comes down to is the lack of decent switch ins especially if you want to build an offensive or balanced team. I don't even mean counters, just good one time switch ins that offense uses to deal with threats, eg using TTar to check Latios or Thundurus to switch into Pinsir. Its great coverage combined with stab on every move mean that even if you switch into Greninja on a resisted "coverage" move, its still going to sting and you are likely to get hit super effectively/neutral next turn anyway if you don't threaten it out with higher speed/priority. In my battles this leads to stupid stuff like Scarf Lando-t being a Greninja switch in on a predicted (hopefully) dark pulse, which it can only take one of, to threaten it out for one turn. Basically 122 speed combined with the right moves means that the majority of offensive pokemon are likely 2hkoed on switch in without the greninja user having to predict what is switching in. This is why so few things are decent switch ins. You can say that a lot of the new megas are faster than this but you are limited to one which will only help you a bit if 4/6 of your team is slower say.
For a pokemon with only 95 /103 offenses it also troubles stall a lot. Eg max hp max def Chansey is 2hkoed after 2 stealth rock switch ins if you predict it and low kick/gunk shot. This is what protean and good coverage allows it to do.
Obviously Greninja is frail and not easy to switch in. However once it is on the field it more than makes up for this, to the extent that I believe it is broken. Really its just that shit your pants feel when it comes in vs your balance team and you think "now what".
What it comes down to is the lack of decent switch ins especially if you want to build an offensive or balanced team. I don't even mean counters, just good one time switch ins that offense uses to deal with threats, eg using TTar to check Latios or Thundurus to switch into Pinsir. Its great coverage combined with stab on every move mean that even if you switch into Greninja on a resisted "coverage" move, its still going to sting and you are likely to get hit super effectively/neutral next turn anyway if you don't threaten it out with higher speed/priority. In my battles this leads to stupid stuff like Scarf Lando-t being a Greninja switch in on a predicted (hopefully) dark pulse, which it can only take one of, to threaten it out for one turn. Basically 122 speed combined with the right moves means that the majority of offensive pokemon are likely 2hkoed on switch in without the greninja user having to predict what is switching in. This is why so few things are decent switch ins. You can say that a lot of the new megas are faster than this but you are limited to one which will only help you a bit if 4/6 of your team is slower say.
For a pokemon with only 95 /103 offenses it also troubles stall a lot. Eg max hp max def Chansey is 2hkoed after 2 stealth rock switch ins if you predict it and low kick/gunk shot. This is what protean and good coverage allows it to do.
Obviously Greninja is frail and not easy to switch in. However once it is on the field it more than makes up for this, to the extent that I believe it is broken. Really its just that shit your pants feel when it comes in vs your balance team and you think "now what".
This. Having checks/counters does not equal broken automatically, whether it's arguing for broken or not broken. BW Hydreigon was not broken, yet it had almost no counters at the time. Blaziken is walled by Azumarill and some other mons, yet it still defeats so much of the meta using Speed Boost.
That's not even considering that Alomomola doesn't take Grass Knot comfortably, neither does Chansey take Gunk Shot..
I'm not entirely sold on the idea that this thing is that broken. One of the main arguments I've seen against Gren so far is that it puts too much pressure on offense, but I don't think this idea holds much water seeing as how it gets slapped around hard by most of the prominent forms of priority and that because it's forced to run Life Orb it can be revenged by scarfers quite easily. Plus, while it's very fast, it's not THE fastest threat - we got three new megas that all outrun and OHKO it in Lop, Bee and Sceptile, in addition to the two we already had in Manectric and Aerodactyl - all five of which are good, viable pokemon in this tier.
Similarly I've seen people say that Chansey and Alomomola are the only counters for defensive playstyles, especially stall, but to be perfectly honest I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to have to run at least one of these if you're using a stall team simply because both of these are such damn good members of a stall team, and to be honest, if you're running stall your teambuilding options are already quite badly restricted anyway.
That's my overall take on the issue, that yes, while Greninja is clearly an amazing Pokémon with its incredible speed and great mixed power thanks to its multistab ability, answers exist for it in OU already - not nonviable stuff that you have to dredge up from a lower tier that doesn't work against the rest of OU, stuff that's good at fighting the rest of the metagame, not just Greninja. There's a multitude of good checks and even a couple of good counters.
In addition, while Greninja's positives are obvious, I think its negatives must also be taken into consideration. The most obvious one is that this thing is frail in every sense of the word. While very little switches into it safely, Greninja has arguably even less opportunities to safely switch in itself. Add to the fact that Life Orb use is pretty much mandatory and that Greninja takes a full share of damage from spikes and SR and that its uncomfortable with every form of status that exists and that its base water / dark typing is very poor defensively and that because it goes mixed most of the time it's forced to compromise its defenses even more and that Protean can be an achilles heel in that it can open up fresh weaknesses for an opposing pokemon to exploit, its lifespan is a lot more limited than you might think. There are two ways to get this thing in unaccosted to do its job - pivot it in with U-turn or Volt Switch, or bring it in after something of yours has fainted. Plus, while I get that Greninja does have many tools to beat many different pokemon, it simply cannot run them all at once. While I get that you're not able to 100% know ahead of time because of the multitude of sets it can run, I feel like most of the time, if you're a good player (and I concede that I am not) you can take a look at the rest of your opponent's team and at worst be able to make an educated guess about the kind of coverage it's running and the threats that it's been included to cover.
So, yeah. While this thing is obviously very good, the question is whether it's too good for OU. On balance, I don't think it is. While I feel like it does restrict teambuilding somewhat, it's not the only pokémon with good attacking stats and coverage that does so. In addition, I don't feel like every option for beating this thing has been explored fully yet. While I'm not saying that I've got all the answers, I feel like people should be considering things like good users of the Assault Vest item to be able to take its hits easier, more use of choice scarf and strong priority to force it out, Protect to scout its moveset, etc. etc. While I can see eye-to-eye with the pro-ban point of view, and understand if it does get banned, my own point of view is no ban.
PS.
Of course, I can see already that there's a lot of very understandable pro-ban sentiment, and I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna be on the losing side when all's said and done. I can also tell, sadly, that a lot of the anti-ban posts are gonna be bad posts using poor arguments, basically grasping at straws to save their favourite pokémon, which won't help the anti-ban faction any. I can understand this, I love Greninja as well and I'd rather it didn't go to ubers, that's why I care enough to make a tl;dr post instead of just shrugging and ignoring the thread. If you're going to make an anti-ban argument, please don't make a low effort shitpost that betrays you as an inexperienced player who just doesn't want to see their favourite poke get flushed. Take some time to understand the meta and back up your points with reasoned points, it'll both help your argument and result in less dead brain cells for everybody. I'm sure this thread will be here for a while.
Similarly I've seen people say that Chansey and Alomomola are the only counters for defensive playstyles, especially stall, but to be perfectly honest I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to have to run at least one of these if you're using a stall team simply because both of these are such damn good members of a stall team, and to be honest, if you're running stall your teambuilding options are already quite badly restricted anyway.
That's my overall take on the issue, that yes, while Greninja is clearly an amazing Pokémon with its incredible speed and great mixed power thanks to its multistab ability, answers exist for it in OU already - not nonviable stuff that you have to dredge up from a lower tier that doesn't work against the rest of OU, stuff that's good at fighting the rest of the metagame, not just Greninja. There's a multitude of good checks and even a couple of good counters.
In addition, while Greninja's positives are obvious, I think its negatives must also be taken into consideration. The most obvious one is that this thing is frail in every sense of the word. While very little switches into it safely, Greninja has arguably even less opportunities to safely switch in itself. Add to the fact that Life Orb use is pretty much mandatory and that Greninja takes a full share of damage from spikes and SR and that its uncomfortable with every form of status that exists and that its base water / dark typing is very poor defensively and that because it goes mixed most of the time it's forced to compromise its defenses even more and that Protean can be an achilles heel in that it can open up fresh weaknesses for an opposing pokemon to exploit, its lifespan is a lot more limited than you might think. There are two ways to get this thing in unaccosted to do its job - pivot it in with U-turn or Volt Switch, or bring it in after something of yours has fainted. Plus, while I get that Greninja does have many tools to beat many different pokemon, it simply cannot run them all at once. While I get that you're not able to 100% know ahead of time because of the multitude of sets it can run, I feel like most of the time, if you're a good player (and I concede that I am not) you can take a look at the rest of your opponent's team and at worst be able to make an educated guess about the kind of coverage it's running and the threats that it's been included to cover.
So, yeah. While this thing is obviously very good, the question is whether it's too good for OU. On balance, I don't think it is. While I feel like it does restrict teambuilding somewhat, it's not the only pokémon with good attacking stats and coverage that does so. In addition, I don't feel like every option for beating this thing has been explored fully yet. While I'm not saying that I've got all the answers, I feel like people should be considering things like good users of the Assault Vest item to be able to take its hits easier, more use of choice scarf and strong priority to force it out, Protect to scout its moveset, etc. etc. While I can see eye-to-eye with the pro-ban point of view, and understand if it does get banned, my own point of view is no ban.
PS.
Of course, I can see already that there's a lot of very understandable pro-ban sentiment, and I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna be on the losing side when all's said and done. I can also tell, sadly, that a lot of the anti-ban posts are gonna be bad posts using poor arguments, basically grasping at straws to save their favourite pokémon, which won't help the anti-ban faction any. I can understand this, I love Greninja as well and I'd rather it didn't go to ubers, that's why I care enough to make a tl;dr post instead of just shrugging and ignoring the thread. If you're going to make an anti-ban argument, please don't make a low effort shitpost that betrays you as an inexperienced player who just doesn't want to see their favourite poke get flushed. Take some time to understand the meta and back up your points with reasoned points, it'll both help your argument and result in less dead brain cells for everybody. I'm sure this thread will be here for a while.
It's funny that you have to resort to completely opposite ends of the archetype spectrum to remotely handle Greninja now a days. How exactly is using full on Stall and Hyper Offense as the viable forms of playstyles even healthy? Hell, in Hyper Offenses case you better hope that your frail as hell mon doesn't fall under its speed tier, which isn't exactly difficult judging from all these poor examples of resorting to only fast as hell megas like M-Sceptile, M-Lopunny, and M-Alakazam as your supposed answer. I can't really stand reading these sort of "arguments" when it's based on terrible theorymon with a more than likely irrelevant calc that was pulled out of thin air that doesn't even portray any sort of practical scenario. I go off of what I see in practice and in practice Greninja is just a problem that simply just adapts to the tier however it sees fit at this point and is no way promoting any sort of real balance in the tier.
The way Greninja just invalidates any sort of Balance or Bulky Offense with its new move-pool additions of Gunk Shot and and Low Kick in a majority of cases is sort of ridiculous and these are the two play-styles at the end of XY that made the tier at least enjoyable and subjectively balanced for the most part. This is on top of the fact that Greninja is surrounded by partners that take advantage of these unhealthy traits that Greninja provides. It's pretty much at this point the easy button in the tier because by virtue of what it does decreases the viability of so many cores and builds with ease and efficieny, and then the 5 other teammates backed up behind it that takes advantage of its versatility and the sub optimal plays or sacks you would have to resort to the moment Greninja comes up against your Balanced or Bulky Offense build, even in some cases of Hyper Offense. Scouting for its set isn't even a legitimate point that it's somehow healthy when you can basically prepare for one popular set in the meta and get beat by a set that handles the checks and counters that would normally be able to handle a certain set. So now from team preview you're relying on some favorable matchup that is based on luck more so than skill or competition in the fact it's not running the set that screws your team over. It's sad when people have to resort to wasting its Life Orb recoil for 10-11 turns and calling that a legitimate strategy of sorts and more than likely is just a team pivoting in and out of its attacks making themselves even more liable to whatever is in the back to clean up the mess Greninja provided.
I also find it pathetic that stuff that was all hyped up talk at first like Low Kick has found its way in viable sets simply cause Greninja has the ability to just adapt to however the tier is going. Oh your switch in is Tentacruel? No problem let's bring back Extrasensory. Alomomola. Lol, no problemo let's hit them with the XY throwback of Grass Knot. Chansey? That's cute, let's throw them for a real ride and go physically offensive. Yes, as sad as it sounds physical moves have proven to have some more viable usage because it's made it easier for Greninja to just pick and choose what the team needs handled more reliable either through cleaning or lure purposes. I'm not gonna act like it's impossible to beat Greninja but when you've established yourself as the key player in reducing or making the effectiveness of so many cores obsolete it's pretty much time to go.
If I don't end up smashing my keyboard from Focus Blast misses, using Protect on Gyro Ball Ferro when M-Gyarados uses Dragon Dance, and fooling myself in thinking that the cancel button actually works before I get reqs, I'll be voting Ban if it wasn't clear by the previous paragraphs.
The way Greninja just invalidates any sort of Balance or Bulky Offense with its new move-pool additions of Gunk Shot and and Low Kick in a majority of cases is sort of ridiculous and these are the two play-styles at the end of XY that made the tier at least enjoyable and subjectively balanced for the most part. This is on top of the fact that Greninja is surrounded by partners that take advantage of these unhealthy traits that Greninja provides. It's pretty much at this point the easy button in the tier because by virtue of what it does decreases the viability of so many cores and builds with ease and efficieny, and then the 5 other teammates backed up behind it that takes advantage of its versatility and the sub optimal plays or sacks you would have to resort to the moment Greninja comes up against your Balanced or Bulky Offense build, even in some cases of Hyper Offense. Scouting for its set isn't even a legitimate point that it's somehow healthy when you can basically prepare for one popular set in the meta and get beat by a set that handles the checks and counters that would normally be able to handle a certain set. So now from team preview you're relying on some favorable matchup that is based on luck more so than skill or competition in the fact it's not running the set that screws your team over. It's sad when people have to resort to wasting its Life Orb recoil for 10-11 turns and calling that a legitimate strategy of sorts and more than likely is just a team pivoting in and out of its attacks making themselves even more liable to whatever is in the back to clean up the mess Greninja provided.
I also find it pathetic that stuff that was all hyped up talk at first like Low Kick has found its way in viable sets simply cause Greninja has the ability to just adapt to however the tier is going. Oh your switch in is Tentacruel? No problem let's bring back Extrasensory. Alomomola. Lol, no problemo let's hit them with the XY throwback of Grass Knot. Chansey? That's cute, let's throw them for a real ride and go physically offensive. Yes, as sad as it sounds physical moves have proven to have some more viable usage because it's made it easier for Greninja to just pick and choose what the team needs handled more reliable either through cleaning or lure purposes. I'm not gonna act like it's impossible to beat Greninja but when you've established yourself as the key player in reducing or making the effectiveness of so many cores obsolete it's pretty much time to go.
If I don't end up smashing my keyboard from Focus Blast misses, using Protect on Gyro Ball Ferro when M-Gyarados uses Dragon Dance, and fooling myself in thinking that the cancel button actually works before I get reqs, I'll be voting Ban if it wasn't clear by the previous paragraphs.
Gunk Shot kinda was the straw that broke the camel's back. Previously, I'd use bulky Fairies such as Mega-Gardevoir, Sylveon or Azumarill to sponge any hit and retaliate hard (even SpDef Togekiss could tank an Ice Beam and T-wave it). But now? They're all OHKO'd by a common coverage move.
I find that every time I make an OU team, the first thing I consider is "what is my Greninja switch in?". And let me tell you, it's slim pickings. I am never going to use a Chansey. If a Pokemon is so good that I have to use a Chansey, then I want it gone. BAN
I find that every time I make an OU team, the first thing I consider is "what is my Greninja switch in?". And let me tell you, it's slim pickings. I am never going to use a Chansey. If a Pokemon is so good that I have to use a Chansey, then I want it gone. BAN
Although I am glad there's an anti-ban argument that isn't complete Greninja fanboyism backed up by terrible arguments, I disagree with the last paragraph. When stating that you need to run more of [insert thing here], this just shows that you need these, otherwise you get destroyed by Gren, showing its super restrictive effect on teambuilding, especially offense and/or balance (to a certain extent for balance). Also, Alo/Chans both take a chance with Grass Knot and Low Kick respectively.
Alright, I've read some good posts and some really shitty ones, but I would like to throw in my two cents about Greninja. Ninja without a doubt is one of the most threatening pokemon in OU with its great power and speed, however despite these factors I believe that Ninja is not broken. This is due to his incredible frailness in conjunction with Protean. Protean, while incredible, does have the downside of changing type, which the other player can use to their advantage with priority or scarfers. Additionally, the speed creep of ORAS has resulted in many faster threats, such as Sceptile, Beedrill, Aerodactyl, and others being more prominent, all being threatening to Ninja. Scarf Keldeo is also more prevelant due to the wealth of mons at base 110 speed, and can stop Ninja. Is Ninja incredibly good? Without a doubt. Is Ninja broken? No. Do Not Ban
Really? Because of Gunk Shot? Yeah, it is good, but Ban worthy? Greninja is MURDERED by Priority. Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, Scarfed Chomp, Scarfed Lando-I (which is on almost every team it seems...), and M-Lop all completely murder Greninja with no issue. What about Rotom-W? I can tell you no Grass Knot build is going to hurt it that much... and any Physical Defensive Rotom-W would eat up Gunk Shot and counter with either a nice Volt Switch, or a Burn, and if it is Burned, well, Gunk Shot and Low Kick are now worthless. What about Talonflame, who still pretty much OHKOs Greninja? No, not all these Pokemon can switch into Greninja safely, but that shouldn't matter THAT much. Greninja is still a pokemon that lacks priority, and has glass-like defenses, and tends to get murdered by other Pokemon with any semblance of Priority. If Greninja doesn't have Low Kick, Ferrothorn is also a good switch in since NOTHING else Gren uses is worth a damn against it besides HP Fire. Same with Chansey. Look, Greninja can't run EVERYTHING. It still only has four moves at its disposal. With all these new Mega's that came out that outspeed, or have higer defenses (Slowbro and Sableye come to mind) I don't even see why Greninja is even being Suspect Tested over other Pokemon that I think are bigger problems. :/
Supporting a ban. Like others have said and in the OP as well, it puts serious strain on team building. There are almost no Pokemon that are safe against this bar a few Pokemon so unless you're running something like Porygon2 or Tentacruel you're going to have a very hard time. Not even Chansey is safe because it's so easy to wear down with hazards, volt-turning and stuff like that and doesn't even hold Leftovers. There's also another thing Greninja can do very efficiently, which is to Spike stack due to how many switches it tends to force. Not only does this help it's team but also wears down the few counters it has. Before it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick, it was much easier to handle with things like AV Azumarill or Clefable but with the addition of them I just think it's way too problematic for the OU metagame with all this insane coverage backed up by STAB on every move. Having a great speed stat doesn't help either. 122 speed out speeds almost everything bar scarfers and most speedy Megas are slower than it while in base form. But even then Greninja can just find a free switch in on something that is slower and proceed to get kills that way. To the people saying it dies to priority or whatever, there's no reason why you can't switch and come in later to get more damage off.
Also thread title sucks ass because Greninja is not a turtle.
Also thread title sucks ass because Greninja is not a turtle.
Don't get me wrong, I understand, but I feel like items like choice scarf and assault vest aren't an unreasonable adaptation to make. While I agree that telling people to use non-viable pokemon and weird, sub-optimal sets to deal with one threat isn't a viable anti-ban argument, I feel like these items are good in general terms and don't reduce the efficacy of most teams if you run them. I understand that Greninja's a top-bill threat that absolutely has to be accounted for in teambuilding, I don't feel like that's sufficient to get it banned - you can say the same things about Mega Metagross, or Keldeo, or either form of Mega Charizard.
In a lot of ways, gren reminds me of mega lucario in that until you figure out its set, it has no surefire counters. With an amazing offensive movepool allowing it to hit any/everything that it could possibly need to. It has forced the rise in usage of other pokemon that otherwise would not have seen nearly as much play as they do now(tenta and empoleon), and without much team support can put in a ridiculous amount of work. So yeah, i say BAN.
p.s., just because a pokemon has checks doesnt mean it isnt broken. Scarf terrakion checks e-killer, but does that mean we should unban arceus? Every single pokemon that has been banned has some sort of check that isnt Uber, but keep in mind that its not greninja vs six pokemon, its gren and 5 other pokemon that (should) handle greninja's standerd checks.
p.s., just because a pokemon has checks doesnt mean it isnt broken. Scarf terrakion checks e-killer, but does that mean we should unban arceus? Every single pokemon that has been banned has some sort of check that isnt Uber, but keep in mind that its not greninja vs six pokemon, its gren and 5 other pokemon that (should) handle greninja's standerd checks.
Deleted 30 posts within a few hours of this thread being open. You have all used up all my christmas cheer, so anyone making a 1 line post, idiotic statement, or otherwise did not take on board the advice in the Suspect Etiquette thread will receive a 1 point infraction straight up. If you are unsure as to whether your post breaks these guidelines, then don't post. If you want to know how to make a good post, then you can take a gander at some of the posts made by several badged users, for instance, AM is a good example of someone that can make intelligent posts.
Also I'll delete the next person that makes a post saying "Hurr Greninja is not a turtle". Haunter is Italian, didn't know the difference, so don't be rude to him, I'm educating him on the differences as of now. Your requests have been heard, and I'll give Macle a call if Haunter is still confused on the differences.
Merry Christmas everyone, post nicely =]
Also I'll delete the next person that makes a post saying "Hurr Greninja is not a turtle". Haunter is Italian, didn't know the difference, so don't be rude to him, I'm educating him on the differences as of now. Your requests have been heard, and I'll give Macle a call if Haunter is still confused on the differences.
Merry Christmas everyone, post nicely =]
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 146-173 (48.1 - 57%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not sure I'd call that "eating it up"...
Where are these numbers coming from... 174 special attack thanks to life orb?
Anyways, Greninja is a great pokemon against offensive teams but against more defensive teams it doesnt fare too well. it takes damage literally every turn its involved in due to life orb or hazards and can be wittled down as a result. The most common coverage is poison/water/ice/dark so bulky waters are a pretty good answer to it. The dark coverage is usually the move replaced for other options like fire/grass/fighting, but if you go with hidden power fire you lose the 50/50 with opposing ninja due to the speed IV.
empoleon/suicune/keldeo/tentacruel are just some of the bulky waters you can use. Grass Knot and extrasensory/low kick are options to take them down, but they're rare and he sacrifices superior coverage to use these moves.
Jirachi/Ferrothorn are also decent answers depending on the coverage.
Once you figure out its moveset it isnt difficult to deal with because of the life orb recoil it takes every turn . like you may lose a pokemon to it, but you can pick what pokemon is least useful to you in team matchup and you gain valuable knowledge in their greninja set to handle it better and about their team.
With offense, I think people just have to build more meticulously to deal with it. You can't run pokemon that come in often to check other pokes and allow greninja to get free kills. AKA stop relying on lando/lati.
Although right now im for no ban, i can definitely understand the arguments for ban.
granja y u do dis
Anyways, Greninja is a great pokemon against offensive teams but against more defensive teams it doesnt fare too well. it takes damage literally every turn its involved in due to life orb or hazards and can be wittled down as a result. The most common coverage is poison/water/ice/dark so bulky waters are a pretty good answer to it. The dark coverage is usually the move replaced for other options like fire/grass/fighting, but if you go with hidden power fire you lose the 50/50 with opposing ninja due to the speed IV.
empoleon/suicune/keldeo/tentacruel are just some of the bulky waters you can use. Grass Knot and extrasensory/low kick are options to take them down, but they're rare and he sacrifices superior coverage to use these moves.
Jirachi/Ferrothorn are also decent answers depending on the coverage.
Once you figure out its moveset it isnt difficult to deal with because of the life orb recoil it takes every turn . like you may lose a pokemon to it, but you can pick what pokemon is least useful to you in team matchup and you gain valuable knowledge in their greninja set to handle it better and about their team.
With offense, I think people just have to build more meticulously to deal with it. You can't run pokemon that come in often to check other pokes and allow greninja to get free kills. AKA stop relying on lando/lati.
Although right now im for no ban, i can definitely understand the arguments for ban.
granja y u do dis
Gonna list Gren's pros and cons, just to make my point.
Pros:
- Insane coverage is insane
- Base 122 speed allows it to outspeed a good amount of the unboosted meta
- Protean
- Really good coverage allows it to hit whatever it wants pretty hard
- Has low amount of checks/counters; most are taken out w/ correct coverage and others are rare/niche
- Good coverage
Cons:
- Frail af
- Can't switch into anything
-Easily revenge killed jk
I'm not going to beat around the bush with this, just gonna get straight to the point: Greninja's cons aren't enough of an excuse to not get it banned. Sure, it may be frail, but it doesn't need to switch in; it can come in after sacking a mon or through the use of a slow U-turn/Volt Switch. And to those that say "lol, use Choice Scarf and priority and ur gud," nothing's stopping Greninja from switching out. Sending in a priority user/Choice Scarf user is painfully obvious, and thus, would prompt the Greninja user to switch it out. Does forcing Greninja to switch solve your problems? Cuz if it does, then you probably shouldn't be talking here. I'm tired af, so I'm gonna just cut to the chase and agree with a big, fat ban.
EDIT: Will probably make a more elaborate post about this tomorrow; if anyone can tell, I'm pretty tired. By that point, I'll be able to think clearly.
Pros:
- Insane coverage is insane
- Base 122 speed allows it to outspeed a good amount of the unboosted meta
- Protean
- Really good coverage allows it to hit whatever it wants pretty hard
- Has low amount of checks/counters; most are taken out w/ correct coverage and others are rare/niche
- Good coverage
Cons:
- Frail af
- Can't switch into anything
-
I'm not going to beat around the bush with this, just gonna get straight to the point: Greninja's cons aren't enough of an excuse to not get it banned. Sure, it may be frail, but it doesn't need to switch in; it can come in after sacking a mon or through the use of a slow U-turn/Volt Switch. And to those that say "lol, use Choice Scarf and priority and ur gud," nothing's stopping Greninja from switching out. Sending in a priority user/Choice Scarf user is painfully obvious, and thus, would prompt the Greninja user to switch it out. Does forcing Greninja to switch solve your problems? Cuz if it does, then you probably shouldn't be talking here. I'm tired af, so I'm gonna just cut to the chase and agree with a big, fat ban.
EDIT: Will probably make a more elaborate post about this tomorrow; if anyone can tell, I'm pretty tired. By that point, I'll be able to think clearly.
So you have to scout, find out what set it has, sacrifice one pokemon out of your 6 in order to deal with it and then take it out the following turn. That screams broken in that you forced Greninja to switch, congrats but you still have to deal with the other 5 pokemon on the team.
Also what if the team has a healing wish Latias or a wish user like Jirachi?
The fact that Greninja needs be scouted and have built in buffers for each team, tells me this pokemon needs to be banned.
I don't think so. Low Kick is played a lot since it takes down Heatran, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn with one move, meaning Low Kick can replace both Hydro Pump AND Hidden Power Fire. Moreover, that also hurts Ferrothorn alot. Extrasensory is pretty common too, knowing it's been useful to take down Venusaur Mega.
I'm ok with "every Greninja moveset has a check, so it's easy to counter it once you know the set", but what does it take to figure out the moveset? How many turns and how many damages? Your opponent will play with the fact you don't know his moveset and he won't show it right away. Not knowing which set it is means not knowing which mon checks it. So that basically means you can lose one mon on each turn Greninja stays on the playground. You said it yourself. I don't think it is healthy for the metagame that one Pokemon requires to be ready to lose one of yours just to find out his moveset.
I felt i should address this even though TLC worded it quite perfectly in his post but i'll further emphasize on the fact greninja is indeed broken with the introduction of its new physical moves. Greninja has had a profound influence on the metagame where people are using very gimmicky mons on teams that were uncommon last generation to combat it (tentacruel, umbreon, porygon2, empoleon ((low kick still does a lot)) ect.)While checking can be done, countering it is an extremely difficult task, where you need to rely on priority or a choice scarf to get the job done in many cases.With regards to hyper offensive teams, its almost too simple to abuse grenina as the only defense people with HO has is pivoting around its moves, like switching into a resisted hit to get in bisharp or azumarill to get off a at least a neutral hit. If you actually go and stare at the team builder, you'll find barely anything that switches in and removes it with ease. It feels strange to suspect greninja to some people, even myself kind of because on paper, it doesn't seem like a threat but in game play it is terrifying.
I think any player who has truly taken the time to play theORAS metagame will agree that with its speed and to a degree its unpredictability has caused limitations to innovation, and restrictions to team building. Overall, the metagame would be able to advance in a much better direction, in the same way it did with an aegis lash ban, if we could expand our team building.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!! :D
I think any player who has truly taken the time to play theORAS metagame will agree that with its speed and to a degree its unpredictability has caused limitations to innovation, and restrictions to team building. Overall, the metagame would be able to advance in a much better direction, in the same way it did with an aegis lash ban, if we could expand our team building.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!! :D
...Greninja is not a defense tank. We know that he can take hits. His cons are literally...suspectible to priority, and bad defenses. Thing is, I see some people are saying Protean changing its type is bad, when it's really not. Sure, it could screw him over with the right prediction, but chances are, if Greninja is changing type, it's expecting to kill your mon with the attack.
Honestly not sure about Greninja. A lot of the time you do have to sack something/predict around it, and even if you do you can get hit super effectively by something because of it's extensive movepool (grass knot ect.) And then it's speed is a problem next turn. So a lot of the time depending on your team, you have to rely on priority such as Tflame, mach punchers, ect.
I'm not sure about this whole low kick thing, Chansey still eat's it up for the most part. I mean it's good for Bisharp, but who brings in Bisharp on a greninja, and sucker punch is a guaranteed OHKO at +2 after SR or if gren has taken some life orb recoil. I'm not a big fan of saying whether something has checks or not just based on it having 'X' move but still the threat of it having 'X' move does cause people to play differently, and I'm sure everyone has been in that situation where they literally cannot bring anything in on this thing.
In short Greninja can hit almost everything in the metagame. It's sheer speed, power and unpredictability far outweigh the threats of priority ect that the OU metagame has to offer.
BAN.
I'm not sure about this whole low kick thing, Chansey still eat's it up for the most part. I mean it's good for Bisharp, but who brings in Bisharp on a greninja, and sucker punch is a guaranteed OHKO at +2 after SR or if gren has taken some life orb recoil. I'm not a big fan of saying whether something has checks or not just based on it having 'X' move but still the threat of it having 'X' move does cause people to play differently, and I'm sure everyone has been in that situation where they literally cannot bring anything in on this thing.
In short Greninja can hit almost everything in the metagame. It's sheer speed, power and unpredictability far outweigh the threats of priority ect that the OU metagame has to offer.
BAN.
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