Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Gnief Fiar]

In all honesty, I believe that Pinsir-Mega is a broken Pokemon within the Monotype realm. Pinsir-Mega can set up Swords Dance on many things and most types don't have a Pokemon available that is well equipped to deal with it. Then it can proceed to sweep with it's choice of Return, Quick Attack, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat. That's all I'll say for now because I want to hear all of your opinions on the matter. ^_^

I'm quite sure plenty of types can deal with Mega Pinsir. All you have to do is not let it set set up. And even if you DO let it set up, almost every type has a Pokemon that can tank a hit from it, or deal with it another way. Fighting has Sash Breloom which can put it to sleep and also retaliate with Rock Tomb. Flying has Skarmory who can tank a hit and Whirlwind. Ground has Hippowdon who can do the same thing. Rock has Mega Aggron. Ghost has Sableye. Water has Rotom-Wash. Electric has a lot of things that can deal with it. Psychic has Slowbro. Ice has Avalugg. Dark has Mandibuzz which can Foul Play it and KO, and again, Sableye. And Fairy has Klefki(and Mega Mawile, but that's gonna get banned probably). Only types that I find might face a challenge against Mega Pinsir is Bug, Grass, Normal if you're not using BulkyRaptor or ScarfRaptor, and Poison if you're not using Weezing. And even then, the main thing is to not let it set up. Normal can dispatch Mega Pinsir with Staraptor since Quick Attack can't kill and Brave Bird WILL. Bug can use Flame Body Volcarona to try and burn it, or if that doesn't work, you have Scizor. Grass is the type that Bug murders all the time. However, you can always Thunder Wave it with Ferrothorn or Spore it with Breloom. Poison has

Another thing, there are Scarf Pokemon out there that can take a +2 Quick Attack and also retaliate back pretty hard. For example, Staraptor, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Genesect, Chandelure, Victini, Kyurem White, and Kyurem Black. There's also the matter of bulky attackers like Magnezone, Mega Scizor, and Landorus-T that can really put a dent in Mega Pinsir. You know what else puts a dent in Mega Pinsir? Stealth Rocks. Stealth Rocks means that it can't switch in and out, and even when it DOES switch in, it takes 25%(50% if you already Mega Evolved) so it really shouldn't be too hard to beat it.

Also, Mega Pinsir really can't set up too much. This is due to frailty on the special side, and the fact that Rock moves are everywhere. It can set up on anything that won't beat it up or status it, which is a generally small amount of Pokemon.

On the bright side, Mega Pinsir is still a pretty good sweeper. And while I think that's it's not broken like you've said, it's still a pretty very strong Pokemon.

P.S I might be a bit biased about this. I've always used Mega Scizor over Mega Pinsir. In all my tests, I've found Mega Pinsir to be kind of underwhelming. All these claims that I have made in this were based off of tests and a few calcs.

Here are the calcs:

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; This shows that Skarmory can live a hit and also how much of a killjoy it is to Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, and Mega Heracross since the others probably can't do more damage.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 282-334 (81.9 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; Damn, Torkoal is defensive. Never really noticed until now.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 346-408 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate burned Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki through Reflect: 190-224 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; Since Prankster will allow Klefki to set up Reflect before Mega Pinsir can attack.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 258-304 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; Still kamikazes itself to death, but at least Mega Pinsir is down, right? But in all seriousness, no Pokemon would want to take a Brave Bird from Staraptor on Bug.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 204-240 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 211-249 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery; Landorus-T has Intimidate, so you can see how much +1 does.

P.P.S Hope it's okay if I flooded this thread with calcs. If not, then I can edit it.

 

[Freeroamer]

I just wanted to point out that as soon as Mega Mawile got a Swords Dance up, that didn't instantly make the game unwinnable. +2 Sucker and Play Rough can both KO Zapdos from full health (not sure about Sucker though) so using Heat Wave and hoping that it was gonna use Play Rough (like it did) was your best option in that situation Imo. Or, if Zapdos did die, than you bring out Skarm to Whirlwind it away. Then bring out Lando to use Calm Mind and set up and sweep. I was just pointingout that you had options, and could have won that game.

Also,most of my sets are generic, and are useful against more than just M-Mawile. The few that aren't generic are ones that I have found more useful overall than the generic sets. I have never made a team around beating Mega Mawile, or even created one Pokemon centred around countering it. I can just adapt my playstyle to the situation, and beat the Mawile. Also, if you usescreens, Ithinkyou will find them useful against just about every match up, not just against Mega Mawile.

Also, Mummy Cofagriguscan help beat it by halving its attack by changing Huge Power to Mummy (just on Ghost though). Most ghost teams carry a user of WoW as well, so that's quartering its attack.

Sorry if this is unclear, wrote this on myglitchytablet.

There was no best play in that situation, it's a complete 50-50 and you just have to hope you get the right side of it. The game might not have been a stonewall victory at +2 but it's completely against me, i literally have to hope I get on the right side of the multiple 50-50's through the game to take it out. I could have Whirlwinded with Skarm but I assumed Fire Fang because I've found that to be extremely common on Steel teams. Even then, I probs would have still lost cos my defensive core is essentially weakened and if lando takes damage setting up, it gets bopped by guess who's Sucker Punch. Screens are not viable on most teams, Klefki and Psychic teams aside due to the generally underwhelming nature of the users. A well played Mawile will devastate any team without a dedicated answer to it, and in mono dedicated answers are few and far between. It also couldn't wish for better teammates, they literally provide everything it could dream for in terms of resistances, role synergy, speed control and set up windows. It's just unreasonable to expect teams to try and deal with this force of nature when they're building so hard to beat their natural weaknesses, and it shows in how plays against almost all teams.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

There was no best play in that situation, it's a complete 50-50 and you just have to hope you get the right side of it. The game might not have been a stonewall victory at +2 but it's completely against me, i literally have to hope I get on the right side of the multiple 50-50's through the game to take it out. I could have Whirlwinded with Skarm but I assumed Fire Fang because I've found that to be extremely common on Steel teams. Even then, I probs would have still lost cos my defensive core is essentially weakened and if lando takes damage setting up, it gets bopped by guess who's Sucker Punch. Screens are not viable on most teams, Klefki and Psychic teams aside due to the generally underwhelming nature of the users. A well played Mawile will devastate any team without a dedicated answer to it, and in mono dedicated answers are few and far between. It also couldn't wish for better teammates, they literally provide everything it could dream for in terms of resistances, role synergy, speed control and set up windows. It's just unreasonable to expect teams to try and deal with this force of nature when they're building so hard to beat their natural weaknesses, and it shows in how plays against almost all teams.

I'm not sure that saying that Mega-Mawile forces 50/50s is enough reason to ban it. Also, the more 50/50s there are, the lower the probability that you will win none of them. For example, if there are 3 50/50s, then the probability of you having 0 successes is 12.5%. If there are 4 the probability of you winning 0 of them is 6.25%. So, if there were multiple 50/50s (which I'm assuming means at least 3 or 4) then there is a very low probability that you will lose all of them. Also, I've just said that I've never used a dedicated answer to Mega-Mawile, and have never struggled with it. Unless I've played all of the not-well-played Mega-Mawiles, then how have I beat all of them? (Without using a dedicated answer?) Yes it has good teammates, but then again, so do other sweepers, such as Bisharp (Heatran absorbs burns/fire moves, Skarmory absorbs fighting/ground moves, Ferrothorn can use Paralysis to make Gyro Ball do more) or Scarfcross (Sticky Web support allows it to outspeed most other scarfers/fast threats, it has teammates than can absorb priority, Forretress/Armaldo can switch in on Flying moves and set hazards to break sashes and can also spin hazards away for Heracross, Volcarona can take burns if you run Moxie, and Galvantula/Forretress don't care about Paralysis). Mega Mawile IS dangerous and DOES have good teammates, but so do other dangerous sweepers--these are not unique traits.

 

[Aquaslash]

Mega Mawile IS dangerous and DOES have good teammates, but so do other dangerous sweepers--these are not unique traits.

I was just thinking, doesn't Gallade have possible partners that can provide similar utility to Klefki? I know Meowstic may not be all that hot as a dual screener, but it can at least get one up as well as spread prankster T waves, and that just might be all you need.

I only just started using a fairy team, so I haven't experienced all that much with that type, but I haven't found mawile too problematic as a Dark and Ice user. Hell, the threat of a Mawile sweep is the least of my problems as a Dark user. Amirite Volcarona?

 

[Gnief Fiar]

I was just thinking, doesn't Gallade have possible partners that can provide similar utility to Klefki? I know Meowstic may not be all that hot as a dual screener, but it can at least get one up as well as spread prankster T waves, and that just might be all you need.

I only just started using a fairy team, so I haven't experienced all that much with that type, but I haven't found mawile too problematic as a Dark and Ice user. Hell, the threat of a Mawile sweep is the least of my problems as a Dark user. Amirite Volcarona?

I believe Gallade can have Latias and Mew for really threatening utility partners. Although Latias is more for screens and Mew is more for crippling physical attackers that can hit Gallade hard. These two can do a very good job of supporting Gallade. Who needs Meowstic anyway? As for Fighting, it can have Cobalion as a partner which can Thunder Wave your opponent.

The thing about Mega Gallade is that it doesn't have as big a destructive movepool as Mega Mawile and not as large power. However, it's still a strong Pokemon nonetheless.

Now to get onto the last paragraph. There's a few things setting Mega Mawile back from completely destroying Dark. One is Sableye's burns. They greatly weaken Mega Mawile and can maybe even stop it from sweeping. Then there's Pokemon like Hydreigon and Bisharp that can take a Sucker Punch and attack back strongly. Other than those, Mega Mawile does rip through Dark rather easily as nothing wants to take a Play Rough.

On Ice, it's a different story. Mega Mawile should be able to tear straight through Ice. Mega Mawile can set up Swords Dances easily on most Pokemon in an Ice team save for Kyurem-W and Mamoswine, and proceed to sweep. Nothing can take a +2 Fire Fang or Iron Head except for Avalugg or Kyurem-W, which gets heavily damaged by Sucker Punch anyways. And even if you manage to KO Mega Mawile, you still have to deal with the other Pokemon such as Azumarill and Clefable. Or if on Steel, Skarmory, Scizor, the rest of the lot.

Those weren't even mentioning the support Mawile gets as well. Klefki does a lot to help Mega Mawile set up. Dual screens and paralyzing the opponent help tremendously to help it set up. Also, if you do manage to beat Mega Mawile, it's most likely that it already beat up a lot of your team.

I'm not sure what teams you had, or what kind of Mega Mawiles you've faced, but if you had that easy a time against Mega Mawile using Dark or Ice, then dayum. I praise your abilities.

 

[Aquaslash]

I believe Gallade can have Latias and Mew for really threatening utility partners. Although Latias is more for screens and Mew is more for crippling physical attackers that can hit Gallade hard. These two can do a very good job of supporting Gallade. Who needs Meowstic anyway? As for Fighting, it can have Cobalion as a partner which can Thunder Wave your opponent.

The thing about Mega Gallade is that it doesn't have as big a destructive movepool as Mega Mawile and not as large power. However, it's still a strong Pokemon nonetheless.

Now to get onto the last paragraph. There's a few things setting Mega Mawile back from completely destroying Dark. One is Sableye's burns. They greatly weaken Mega Mawile and can maybe even stop it from sweeping. Then there's Pokemon like Hydreigon and Bisharp that can take a Sucker Punch and attack back strongly. Other than those, Mega Mawile does rip through Dark rather easily as nothing wants to take a Play Rough.

On Ice, it's a different story. Mega Mawile should be able to tear straight through Ice. Mega Mawile can set up Swords Dances easily on most Pokemon in an Ice team save for Kyurem-W and Mamoswine, and proceed to sweep. Nothing can take a +2 Fire Fang or Iron Head except for Avalugg or Kyurem-W, which gets heavily damaged by Sucker Punch anyways. And even if you manage to KO Mega Mawile, you still have to deal with the other Pokemon such as Azumarill and Clefable. Or if on Steel, Skarmory, Scizor, the rest of the lot.

Those weren't even mentioning the support Mawile gets as well. Klefki does a lot to help Mega Mawile set up. Dual screens and paralyzing the opponent help tremendously to help it set up. Also, if you do manage to beat Mega Mawile, it's most likely that it already beat up a lot of your team.

I'm not sure what teams you had, or what kind of Mega Mawiles you've faced, but if you had that easy a time against Mega Mawile using Dark or Ice, then dayum. I praise your abilities.

Steel is pure hell for Ice no matter how you slice it. Mawile does nothing for or against that matchup. Generally though, letting avalugg take a hit and when retaliating with weakness policy mirror coat has worked as a stop to that. As for dark, I have all of Sableye to attempt a quick burn, Mandibuzz to use foul play, and Krook to try to drop it's attack some. It's not easy, but Fairy is one of the harder matchups anyway. Still nowhere near as hard as Bug for me. I've found bug to be an absolute nightmare, but I've seen nothing banworthy

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I believe Gallade can have Latias and Mew for really threatening utility partners. Although Latias is more for screens and Mew is more for crippling physical attackers that can hit Gallade hard. These two can do a very good job of supporting Gallade. Who needs Meowstic anyway? As for Fighting, it can have Cobalion as a partner which can Thunder Wave your opponent.

The thing about Mega Gallade is that it doesn't have as big a destructive movepool as Mega Mawile and not as large power. However, it's still a strong Pokemon nonetheless.

Now to get onto the last paragraph. There's a few things setting Mega Mawile back from completely destroying Dark. One is Sableye's burns. They greatly weaken Mega Mawile and can maybe even stop it from sweeping. Then there's Pokemon like Hydreigon and Bisharp that can take a Sucker Punch and attack back strongly. Other than those, Mega Mawile does rip through Dark rather easily as nothing wants to take a Play Rough.

On Ice, it's a different story. Mega Mawile should be able to tear straight through Ice. Mega Mawile can set up Swords Dances easily on most Pokemon in an Ice team save for Kyurem-W and Mamoswine, and proceed to sweep. Nothing can take a +2 Fire Fang or Iron Head except for Avalugg or Kyurem-W, which gets heavily damaged by Sucker Punch anyways. And even if you manage to KO Mega Mawile, you still have to deal with the other Pokemon such as Azumarill and Clefable. Or if on Steel, Skarmory, Scizor, the rest of the lot.

Those weren't even mentioning the support Mawile gets as well. Klefki does a lot to help Mega Mawile set up. Dual screens and paralyzing the opponent help tremendously to help it set up. Also, if you do manage to beat Mega Mawile, it's most likely that it already beat up a lot of your team.

I'm not sure what teams you had, or what kind of Mega Mawiles you've faced, but if you had that easy a time against Mega Mawile using Dark or Ice, then dayum. I praise your abilities.

Mega Gallade has a higher base attack stat (165) as compared to Mega Mawile (105). It doesn't rely on its ability. It has higher HP (68>50), higher SpD (115>95), and higher speed (110>50). It also has higher SpA, but that's irrelevant. It has Swords Dance as well, and a wide physical movepool. It has access to: Close Combat/Drain Punch/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Low Kick/Knock Off/Dual Chop/Shadow Sneak/Power-Up Punch/X-Scissor/Poison Jab/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Return. It can also run SubPunch with STAB. It has Guts users (Fighting) or Victini (Psychic) to absorb burns. It has screens from Latias/Meowstic/Espeon. It gets Heal Bell from Celebi, Wish from Jirachi, and both from Gardevoir. It also has Healing Wish from Celebi/Latias. That's just about as good as it gets for support (although admittedly it doesn't get too much from support from Fighting). It's main STABs have 120/80 base power compared to Mawile's 90/80. So basically, it has the same or better support, higher stats, a wider, stronger movepool, and the same boosting move as Mega Mawile.

The only thing Mega Mawile has over Mega Gallade is higher defense (125>95), Huge Power, and a priority move with no immunities (although it does rely on the opponent attacking). This doesn't really matter for Gallade though, as it can actually outspeed stuff and doesn't need to rely on priority. The only big thing I see that sets Mawile apart is Huge Power.

So, I think you are wrong when you say that Gallade doesn't have a destructive movepool, and it has more power outside of abilities than Mawile. It literally outclasses Mega Mawile in just about every way other than abilities, so I think that it deserves more than a flippant "still a strong Pokemon nonetheless."

Sorry if I sound really harsh, but Mega Mawile is pretty underwhelming except for Huge Power and Mega Gallade is really good, even without a good ability.

 

[Gnief Fiar]

Mega Gallade has a higher base attack stat (165) as compared to Mega Mawile (105). It doesn't rely on its ability. It has higher HP (68>50), higher SpD (115>95), and higher speed (110>50). It also has higher SpA, but that's irrelevant. It has Swords Dance as well, and a wide physical movepool. It has access to: Close Combat/Drain Punch/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Fire Punch/Thunder Punch/Low Kick/Knock Off/Dual Chop/Shadow Sneak/Power-Up Punch/X-Scissor/Poison Jab/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Return. It can also run SubPunch with STAB. It has Guts users (Fighting) or Victini (Psychic) to absorb burns. It has screens from Latias/Meowstic/Espeon. It gets Heal Bell from Celebi, Wish from Jirachi, and both from Gardevoir. It also has Healing Wish from Celebi/Latias. That's just about as good as it gets for support (although admittedly it doesn't get too much from support from Fighting). It's main STABs have 120/80 base power compared to Mawile's 90/80. So basically, it has the same or better support, higher stats, a wider, stronger movepool, and the same boosting move as Mega Mawile.

The only thing Mega Mawile has over Mega Gallade is higher defense (125>95), Huge Power, and a priority move with no immunities (although it does rely on the opponent attacking). This doesn't really matter for Gallade though, as it can actually outspeed stuff and doesn't need to rely on priority. The only big thing I see that sets Mawile apart is Huge Power.

So, I think you are wrong when you say that Gallade doesn't have a destructive movepool, and it has more power outside of abilities than Mawile. It literally outclasses Mega Mawile in just about every way other than abilities, so I think that it deserves more than a flippant "still a strong Pokemon nonetheless."

Sorry if I sound really harsh, but Mega Mawile is pretty underwhelming except for Huge Power and Mega Gallade is really good, even without a good ability.

Well you got me there. Except I have a few arguments. Since Mega Mawile's Ability makes it actually have more power than Mega Gallade, putting it at a 618 Attack stat at max Attack, while Mega Gallade has a 471 Attack stat with max Attack(but most people I've seen use Jolly instead of Adamant, so it'd be 429 with Jolly).

And the argument of "reliant on Ability" is kinda...iffy. Without the Ability, sure Mega Mawile's nothing special, but does that put up a good argument? No! Does this mean that we should disregard all the other Pokemon with great Abilities like Azumarill, Scizor, Clefable, Greninja, Togekiss, etc? Mega Mawile's Pure Power might be what makes it great, and making incredible use of the Ability is not a reason to say that it's outclassed.

I do, however, regret saying it has a smaller destructive movepool. I guess I kinda underestimated it since I never really had much trouble with it. Haven't seen many other sets other than Swords Dance/Close Combat/Shadow Sneak/Zen Headbutt. As for support, it DOES get support on par with Mega Mawile's. However, the difference here is that Mega Mawile is a bit more self-supporting than Mega Gallade thanks to its bulk.

I am also NOT saying that Mega Gallade is bad by any means. I'm just saying that it is a bit less powerful than Mega Mawile. The main thing I was focusing on was the Mega Mawile paragraph since we were talking about it anyways.

P.S That wasn't harsh at all. Just hope I wasn't too harsh...

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Well you got me there. Except I have a few arguments. Since Mega Mawile's Ability makes it actually have more power than Mega Gallade, putting it at a 618 Attack stat at max Attack, while Mega Gallade has a 471 Attack stat with max Attack(but most people I've seen use Jolly instead of Adamant, so it'd be 429 with Jolly).

And the argument of "reliant on Ability" is kinda...iffy. Without the Ability, sure Mega Mawile's nothing special, but does that put up a good argument? No! Does this mean that we should disregard all the other Pokemon with great Abilities like Azumarill, Scizor, Clefable, Greninja, Togekiss, etc? Mega Mawile's Pure Power might be what makes it great, and making incredible use of the Ability is not a reason to say that it's outclassed.

I do, however, regret saying it has a smaller destructive movepool. I guess I kinda underestimated it since I never really had much trouble with it. Haven't seen many other sets other than Swords Dance/Close Combat/Shadow Sneak/Zen Headbutt. As for support, it DOES get support on par with Mega Mawile's. However, the difference here is that Mega Mawile is a bit more self-supporting than Mega Gallade thanks to its bulk.

I am also NOT saying that Mega Gallade is bad by any means. I'm just saying that it is a bit less powerful than Mega Mawile. The main thing I was focusing on was the Mega Mawile paragraph since we were talking about it anyways.

P.S That wasn't harsh at all. Just hope I wasn't too harsh...

The thing is though, Mega Gallade has better overall bulk than Mawile, and Gallade has speed as well. I'm actually glad you brought it up as it is kinda comparable. It has speed, so it doesn't have to rely on priority like Mawile does, and if it does have to, it can tank hits as it has slightly better bulk. It also is not rekted by Mummy/Simple Beam (both rare, I know, but they do have some use).

So I guess my main point is that Mawile has another way of being ruined (at least temporarily) in Mummy Cofagrigus. Also, it has to rely on priority Sucker Punch if it doesn't want to have to take a hit. Gallade has higher overall bulk and outspeed many common Pokemon (such as Landorus, unboosted Volcarona, unboosted Mega Char X, and speed ties with Lati@s) so it has more options, rather than just SD+Sucker Punch spam (as that is the most common usage of Mega Mawile).

The more I write, the more I keep finding ways in which Mawile suffers :s

I realize that the reliant on ability thing is sorta iffy, but honestly those other Pokemon could survive. Greninja could still be a fast attacker, Azumarill still have Belly Drum, Togekiss could still run its Scarf set, and it's paraflinch set would still have 80% chance to para or flinch, Scizorwould still have priority STAB and X-Scissor as well as its bulky Roost sets. Clefable is probably the best one you brought up, as it is set up bait without Unaware. Mega Mawile is in the same boat--without Huge Power it is basically outclassed, and there are ways to remove its ability.

So in conclusion, removing Mega Mawile's ability through Mummy/Simple Beam/Skill Swap is another way to beat it (and yes I do realize these are all very rare or aren't allowed on every team, so I'll save you guys the time it would take you to tell me that :P). I also don't believe that something so reliant on priority deserves to be banned, as if it doesn't use Sucker Punch, then it won't last too long (it can only take a couple of hits with little to no investment, even with screens). As well, I believe the slight extra bulk, and tons of extra speed given by Mega Gallade is better overall than about 1.5x more power (again, because Maw has to sucker, while Gallade can outspeed lots of stuff anyway and hit with harder moves backed by STAB).

 

[The-Vale]

I've heard about people not enjoying greninja as a threat, i run mono ground as my main and i find it is hardly a problem to my team as im well equipped to deal with it and a good mono should at least be able to put up a fight against a mono it is weak against, for example one on one my mamoswine will win against greninja (hax providing) the only way greninja OHKO's me is through grass knot even then its only a 37% chance but an EQ followed by Ice shard kills it, or if sands in greninja is outsped by excadrill, or gastrodon who also isnt OHKO by grass knot can toxic it and with sand, life orb and toxic recoil gren wont be alive for long, so for all you who think gren should be banned instead of complaining experiment and maybe youll find a way to beat it, good monos need effort.

 

[Gnief Fiar]

The thing is though, Mega Gallade has better overall bulk than Mawile, and Gallade has speed as well. I'm actually glad you brought it up as it is kinda comparable. It has speed, so it doesn't have to rely on priority like Mawile does, and if it does have to, it can tank hits as it has slightly better bulk. It also is not rekted by Mummy/Simple Beam (both rare, I know, but they do have some use).

So I guess my main point is that Mawile has another way of being ruined (at least temporarily) in Mummy Cofagrigus. Also, it has to rely on priority Sucker Punch if it doesn't want to have to take a hit. Gallade has higher overall bulk and outspeed many common Pokemon (such as Landorus, unboosted Volcarona, unboosted Mega Char X, and speed ties with Lati@s) so it has more options, rather than just SD+Sucker Punch spam (as that is the most common usage of Mega Mawile).

The more I write, the more I keep finding ways in which Mawile suffers :s

I realize that the reliant on ability thing is sorta iffy, but honestly those other Pokemon could survive. Greninja could still be a fast attacker, Azumarill still have Belly Drum, Togekiss could still run its Scarf set, and it's paraflinch set would still have 80% chance to para or flinch, Scizorwould still have priority STAB and X-Scissor as well as its bulky Roost sets. Clefable is probably the best one you brought up, as it is set up bait without Unaware. Mega Mawile is in the same boat--without Huge Power it is basically outclassed, and there are ways to remove its ability.

So in conclusion, removing Mega Mawile's ability through Mummy/Simple Beam/Skill Swap is another way to beat it (and yes I do realize these are all very rare or aren't allowed on every team, so I'll save you guys the time it would take you to tell me that :P). I also don't believe that something so reliant on priority deserves to be banned, as if it doesn't use Sucker Punch, then it won't last too long (it can only take a couple of hits with little to no investment, even with screens). As well, I believe the slight extra bulk, and tons of extra speed given by Mega Gallade is better overall than about 1.5x more power (again, because Maw has to sucker, while Gallade can outspeed lots of stuff anyway and hit with harder moves backed by STAB).

Higher overall bulk, eh? 50/125/95(Mega Mawile) is around the same as 68/95/115(Mega Gallade). I think Mega Gallade might have a bit more though. The thing is, who would run defensive EVs on Mega Gallade? If you're running defensive EVs, you're probably running a support set which is better off as normal Gallade anyways. Now because of Mega Mawile's slow Speed, you could run HP EVs which is perfectly alright and makes Mega Mawile bulkier than Mega Gallade.

As for priority, yes. Mega Mawile does rely on priority a lot. But this makes playing against it even harder as it forces a lot of mind games. It all boils down to how well the player can predict. As stated above and DM, it can sometimes turn out to be a complete 50/50 and you just have to hope that you get the right side of it. And even though it IS reliant on it, Sucker Punch still hits like a truck and causes a lot of mind games.

I guess you missed out on my etc part, huh? Well there's so many more Pokemon that are reliant on their Abilities. Let's see...there's Sableye, Mega Sableye, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Dragonite, Talonflame(whose sole purpose over Staraptor was Gale Wings), Hawlucha, Scolipede, Krookodile, Jirachi, Nidoking, Quagsire, really I can keep on going, but I'll spare you. All of these Pokemon are reliant on their Abilities and most do incredibly well because of them. A prime example is Talonflame. Without Gale Wings, it's just a Staraptor clone.

So I'd say that Mega Mawile is good because of the Ability. Those rare things such as Mummy, Simple Beam, and Skill Swap? Why they don't stop Mega Mawile is because they're RARE. So saying that it'll stop Mega Mawile is not a good argument, therefore relying on Abilities is not a bad thing because of their uncommonness.

P.S Without Serene Grace, Togekiss's paraflinching chances go back down to 55%, not 80%.

P.P.S Since when were we comparing Mega Mawile to Mega Gallade anyway?

I've heard about people not enjoying greninja as a threat, i run mono ground as my main and i find it is hardly a problem to my team as im well equipped to deal with it and a good mono should at least be able to put up a fight against a mono it is weak against, for example one on one my mamoswine will win against greninja (hax providing) the only way greninja OHKO's me is through grass knot even then its only a 37% chance but an EQ followed by Ice shard kills it, or if sands in greninja is outsped by excadrill, or gastrodon who also isnt OHKO by grass knot can toxic it and with sand, life orb and toxic recoil gren wont be alive for long, so for all you who think gren should be banned instead of complaining experiment and maybe youll find a way to beat it, good monos need effort.

Now, this.

This is true. A good team should be well prepared to beat their weaknesses. However, the thing about Greninja is that its movepool covers a lot of things. Having trouble with Grass? Ice Beam. Fighting? Extrasensory. I kinda don't really care about Greninja ban. If they ban it, then whatever. If they don't then also whatever. I thought Nani said that we aren't banning Greninja until we really test the waters(ignore the unintentional pun).

Lastly, I'm not sure what kind of Mamoswine you're running. This is the calc for most Mamoswines.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 506-596 (140.5 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This also doesn't account for Life Orb(since this set is a Scarf). Scarf Greninja is a thing. It outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in the Sand. Gastrodon is a good check to Greninja though.

 

[The-Vale]

Now, this.

This is true. A good team should be well prepared to beat their weaknesses. However, the thing about Greninja is that its movepool covers a lot of things. Having trouble with Grass? Ice Beam. Fighting? Extrasensory. I kinda don't really care about Greninja ban. If they ban it, then whatever. If they don't then also whatever. I thought Nani said that we aren't banning Greninja until we really test the waters(ignore the unintentional pun).

Lastly, I'm not sure what kind of Mamoswine you're running. This is the calc for most Mamoswines.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 506-596 (140.5 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This also doesn't account for Life Orb(since this set is a Scarf). Scarf Greninja is a thing. It outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in the Sand. Gastrodon is a good check to Greninja though.

I run a slightly unorthadox Mamo thats what i was getting at in the experimentation bit, DOW just suggested i post about my mamo to shut greninja banners people up, i just dont really wanna disclose the set i run as its something i developed and tested out although the fact it tanks sppecial ninja should be enough for you to work out the item

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Higher overall bulk, eh? 50/125/95(Mega Mawile) is around the same as 68/95/115(Mega Gallade). I think Mega Gallade might have a bit more though. The thing is, who would run defensive EVs on Mega Gallade? If you're running defensive EVs, you're probably running a support set which is better off as normal Gallade anyways. Now because of Mega Mawile's slow Speed, you could run HP EVs which is perfectly alright and makes Mega Mawile bulkier than Mega Gallade.

As for priority, yes. Mega Mawile does rely on priority a lot. But this makes playing against it even harder as it forces a lot of mind games. It all boils down to how well the player can predict. As stated above and DM, it can sometimes turn out to be a complete 50/50 and you just have to hope that you get the right side of it. And even though it IS reliant on it, Sucker Punch still hits like a truck and causes a lot of mind games.

I guess you missed out on my etc part, huh? Well there's so many more Pokemon that are reliant on their Abilities. Let's see...there's Sableye, Mega Sableye, Klefki, Mega Slowbro, Dragonite, Talonflame(whose sole purpose over Staraptor was Gale Wings), Hawlucha, Scolipede, Krookodile, Jirachi, Nidoking, Quagsire, really I can keep on going, but I'll spare you. All of these Pokemon are reliant on their Abilities and most do incredibly well because of them. A prime example is Talonflame. Without Gale Wings, it's just a Staraptor clone.


So I'd say that Mega Mawile is good because of the Ability. Those rare things such as Mummy, Simple Beam, and Skill Swap? Why they don't stop Mega Mawile is because they're RARE. So saying that it'll stop Mega Mawile is not a good argument, therefore relying on Abilities is not a bad thing because of their uncommonness.

P.S Without Serene Grace, Togekiss's paraflinching chances go back down to 55%, not 80%.

P.P.S Since when were we comparing Mega Mawile to Mega Gallade anyway?



Now, this.

This is true. A good team should be well prepared to beat their weaknesses. However, the thing about Greninja is that its movepool covers a lot of things. Having trouble with Grass? Ice Beam. Fighting? Extrasensory. I kinda don't really care about Greninja ban. If they ban it, then whatever. If they don't then also whatever. I thought Nani said that we aren't banning Greninja until we really test the waters(ignore the unintentional pun).

Lastly, I'm not sure what kind of Mamoswine you're running. This is the calc for most Mamoswines.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 506-596 (140.5 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This also doesn't account for Life Orb(since this set is a Scarf). Scarf Greninja is a thing. It outspeeds Adamant Excadrill in the Sand. Gastrodon is a good check to Greninja though.

Yes, Gallade has slightly higher bulk if you add it all up, but doesn't usually invest in bulk because it has speed. Mega Mawile can have trouble with things that are faster than it and resist sucker Punch who have strong moves. Also, most other priority will outspeed Sucker, so you can get 2 hits in if they Sucker the first time.

Yes I did miss the etc. part :P. Most of those do rely on their abilities to be viable, but they aren't overly powerful, and aren't the ones up for a ban. Also, I'm not sure why/how/when we started comparing Gallade to Mawile.

Yes I know those are rare, but they can be used to stop Mega Mawile and are on some teams so on those teams they are usable (I.E. Mummy Cofaagrigus on Ghost).

I will admit ignorance on the paraflinching thing, I just did 50% para chance plus 30% flinch chance is 80%. Btw, could you tell me how you did that calculation? Not because I want to correct you or anything (I trust you) but just for future reference.

I know Sucker hits hard when boosted, but not on things that resist it, or outspeed it. It alsodoesn't have STAB (if Sucker was STAB I would argue for a ban,but it's not). Therefore, I think that relying on A: outspeedable priority, B: non-STAB move and C: theopponent attacking doesn't make Mega Mawile that stellar, and it is still counterable. (Shhhhhh, inventing words is fun ^_^)

 

[Gnief Fiar]

Yes, Gallade has slightly higher bulk if you add it all up, but doesn't usually invest in bulk because it has speed. Mega Mawile can have trouble with things that are faster than it and resist sucker Punch who have strong moves. Also, most other priority will outspeed Sucker, so you can get 2 hits in if they Sucker the first time.

Yes I did miss the etc. part :P. Most of those do rely on their abilities to be viable, but they aren't overly powerful, and aren't the ones up for a ban. Also, I'm not sure why/how/when we started comparing Gallade to Mawile.

Yes I know those are rare, but they can be used to stop Mega Mawile and are on some teams so on those teams they are usable (I.E. Mummy Cofaagrigus on Ghost).

I will admit ignorance on the paraflinching thing, I just did 50% para chance plus 30% flinch chance is 80%. Btw, could you tell me how you did that calculation? Not because I want to correct you or anything (I trust you) but just for future reference.

I know Sucker hits hard when boosted, but not on things that resist it, or outspeed it. It alsodoesn't have STAB (if Sucker was STAB I would argue for a ban,but it's not). Therefore, I think that relying on A: outspeedable priority, B: non-STAB move and C: theopponent attacking doesn't make Mega Mawile that stellar, and it is still counterable. (Shhhhhh, inventing words is fun ^_^)

Because of Mega Mawile's bulk, it can actually live a hit with some support from Klefki's screens.

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile through Light Screen: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Something like that. It can actually live a hit and still attack back rather strongly. Therefore, Mega Mawile doesn't have to rely on just Sucker Punch thanks to its nice bulk. Pokemon that resist a Sucker Punch are somewhat a problem. However, most of them(minus Fairy) are weak to Play Rough anyways. With Klefki's support, Mega Mawile can do some great destruction.

Most of what I've listed are incredibly strong in my opinion. Sableye, Quagsire, and Klefki are some amazing supports/walls. Hawlucha, Scolipede, and Jirachi are amazing for their ability(ignore the pun) to Speed control. Jirachi because Serene Grace allows it to run paraflinch rather well, and Unburden and Speed Boost are rather easy to understand. Krookodile and Nidoking are, admittedly less strong than the others, but still quite good. Dragonite is the one that doesn't rely on its Ability that much. It does allow it to run a nice Weakness Policy set though. Talonflame got banned because of its Ability. And Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro are on the same plain as Mega Mawile. They might get bans as well.

No STAB doesn't mean less power. It still hits hard, and again, it's there for mind games.

Mega Mawile is counterable(I like this word), but you either have to rely on luck(i.e Flame Body Volcarona) or something unorthodox(i.e that Mummy Cofagrigus you mentioned). There are a few things that can deal with Mega Mawile, but not every type can deal with it easily.

P.S The reason you got the paraflinch thing wrong is because the fully-paralyzed chance is not 50%. It's actually 25%. So 25%+30%=55%. Also, if Serene Grace was active and the paralyzation chance was 50%, then 50%+60%=110%. That's kinda crazy, isn't it? We can't have an always flinching Togekiss or Jirachi, now can we?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Because of Mega Mawile's bulk, it can actually live a hit with some support from Klefki's screens.

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile through Light Screen: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Something like that. It can actually live a hit and still attack back rather strongly. Therefore, Mega Mawile doesn't have to rely on just Sucker Punch thanks to its nice bulk. Pokemon that resist a Sucker Punch are somewhat a problem. However, most of them(minus Fairy) are weak to Play Rough anyways. With Klefki's support, Mega Mawile can do some great destruction.

Most of what I've listed are incredibly strong in my opinion. Sableye, Quagsire, and Klefki are some amazing supports/walls. Hawlucha, Scolipede, and Jirachi are amazing for their ability(ignore the pun) to Speed control. Jirachi because Serene Grace allows it to run paraflinch rather well, and Unburden and Speed Boost are rather easy to understand. Krookodile and Nidoking are, admittedly less strong than the others, but still quite good. Dragonite is the one that doesn't rely on its Ability that much. It does allow it to run a nice Weakness Policy set though. Talonflame got banned because of its Ability. And Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro are on the same plain as Mega Mawile. They might get bans as well.

No STAB doesn't mean less power. It still hits hard, and again, it's there for mind games.

Mega Mawile is counterable(I like this word), but you either have to rely on luck(i.e Flame Body Volcarona) or something unorthodox(i.e that Mummy Cofagrigus you mentioned). There are a few things that can deal with Mega Mawile, but not every type can deal with it easily.

P.S The reason you got the paraflinch thing wrong is because the fully-paralyzed chance is not 50%. It's actually 25%. So 25%+30%=55%. Also, if Serene Grace was active and the paralyzation chance was 50%, then 50%+60%=110%. That's kinda crazy, isn't it? We can't have an always flinching Togekiss or Jirachi, now can we?

Always flinching Togekiss/Jirachi would be awesome.

Cofagrigus is a nice wall for ghost (58/145/105 defenses are awesome) and Mummy is its only ability, so its not actually unorthodox on a defensive ghost team (or even a balanced ghost team). I've used Cofagrigus successfully when I played around with a ghost team and it's surprising how useful it was. Also:

252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 74-87 (24.3 - 28.6%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO

So it's guaranteed to KO after a Chandy Fire Blast. Ghost has Sableye to WoW and then Mawile only has 2 turns left.

Also, way to make me feel stupid for thinking the parachance was 50% <.<

Also, I'm kinda starting to feel silly repeating myself, but I literally devoted 2 posts on the previous page just to describing how to counter Mega Mawile with common sets that don't rely entirely on luck and that aren't unorthodox. Most of the Pokemon (barring Fairies) that resist Sucker Punch are Play Rough weak, but they can hurt Mega Mawile before it attacks (and possibly KO).

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 280-330 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 328-385 (107.8 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And Fighting/Dark have Mach Punch/Sucker Punch to finish it off if it does survive.

I think you may have misunderstood me--I realize those Pokemon are strong, but they are counterable and aren't insanely strong (meaning they aren't banworthy strong).

 

[DoW]

P.S Without Serene Grace, Togekiss's paraflinching chances go back down to 55%, not 80%.

Chances or a full para are actually 1/4, despite many players seeming to believe (for whatever reason) that it is 1/2. This means that its chances of paraflinch with serene grace are 70% and without serene grace around 50% IIRC.

Other than that, however, I have to agree. M-Maw may be reliant on its ability but that's irrelevant. Due to its ability, its typing, its pre-evo ability, and its movepool, alongside a usable statline given these things, it's a very real threat, and I'd argue moreso than most things we see. InfernapeTropius11 you seem capable of providing a lot of revenge killers on fighting or possibly dark teams, however I've yet to see a counter and I've yet to see something on one of the teams that suffers more, such as a team weak to sucker punch or that simply can't handle it, e.g. ghost or ice.

For example, you might think that sableye could deal with M-Maw on ghost teams. But let's look at the matchup. Firstly, if it comes in on a play nuke, it's toast. If M-Maw SD's, you're still not exactly in a nice position, as after the WoW (which still has a 15% chance to miss) it's still got a massive attack stat there to use. Ok, so let's say that Sableye comes in at the same time as M-Maw, or comes in on a M-Maw sucker punch, either of which seems too good to be true but let's ignore that fact. What happens next? Other than the 15% chance of WoW missing, M-Maw still play nukes it and wins the matchup. Or, it can set up a SD then nuke it, and still be in an extremely good position.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So even in a perfect scenario, one which seems far too good to actually happen in-game without the M-Maw player doing a better job, your supposed counter still ends up dead with M-Maw alive. So it's burned, so what? It's still got an annoyingly good defensive typing, decent attacking stats (even after the burn), and SD and sucker punch to be even more annoying with.

Ok, let's look at another one, Cofagrigus is a nice wall, right? Well, Play Nuke easily OHKOs at +2, and it's faster to boot. Great counter there. So let's say once again you have this godly position where you send it in at the same time. If it goes for the SD, you'll WoW right? And due to Mummy, it can't just attack off the bat. Well, here you've got another problem: It can switch. Seriously, if you happen to play well enough to bring it in at exactly the right time, no M-Maw player worth their salt will leave it in against something so obviously bulky and obviously running WoW. It can just come back in at another time, when Cofag doesn't come in at the same time as it, and beat it then. It's not a counter, it's barely even a check. Mummy means M-Maw has to switch out afterwards, but considering it just took out a pokemon that's really not such a massive sacrifice.


Now since I'm drunk and rambling: As with talonflame, a pokemon only needs to annihilate a number of teams to be broken enough for a ban. M-Maw destroys the majority of monotype teams. A few can just about play around it if used very well. The rest are left unable to do anything. And those that can do something often can only revenge kill in any case. And let's take a look at this:

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Firstly, I don't know about you, but I always see Scarf Terrakion. It seems much better in the current metagame, outside of sticky web support on rock teams which is rather rare. Secondly, who even runs eq nowadays? The aegi ban made it less useful and often you'll see CC/SE/X-Scissor/Quick Attack or something because really it doesn't use the coverage outside of very occasionally. Thirdly, you've got a chance to KO after stealth rock and that's using an uncommon item and an uncommon move. Let's look at a more standard calc here:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah no.)

Needless to say, Terrakion doesn't survive the hit back, be it play nuke or iron head (which is important given this means it can hit the entire team hard, be it fighting or rock). And this can't even be when M-Maw first switches in, because there's no intimidate there. If you want that calc it gets even worse:

-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, Terrakion generally won't do anything. Similarly, Choice Specs Keldeo has about a 50% chance of revenge killing without SR. You're talking about a chance to revenge kill. Need I point out that literally any team could revenge kill Talonflame without problem? There are no counters to this thing in standard play without using specific teams which happen to have counters. On most teams, there are barely checks. And this is only one set, let's think about if M-Maw had set up sub instead of running the SD set. Heatran? lol. Terrakion? You broke the sub, cool story bruh.

I think you may have misunderstood me--I realize those Pokemon are strong, but they are counterable and aren't insanely strong (meaning they aren't banworthy strong).

Misunderstood you? I hope so, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Counterable? lol. Insanely strong? Yup, that's M-Maw summed up in two words. More banworthy than talon? Oooh yes. And we haven't even considered support such as klefki's screens or twave support.

tl;dr ban M-Maw. Dat shiz be borked as heck.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Chances or a full para are actually 1/4, despite many players seeming to believe (for whatever reason) that it is 1/2. This means that its chances of paraflinch with serene grace are 70% and without serene grace around 50% IIRC.

Other than that, however, I have to agree. M-Maw may be reliant on its ability but that's irrelevant. Due to its ability, its typing, its pre-evo ability, and its movepool, alongside a usable statline given these things, it's a very real threat, and I'd argue moreso than most things we see. InfernapeTropius11 you seem capable of providing a lot of revenge killers on fighting or possibly dark teams, however I've yet to see a counter and I've yet to see something on one of the teams that suffers more, such as a team weak to sucker punch or that simply can't handle it, e.g. ghost or ice.

For example, you might think that sableye could deal with M-Maw on ghost teams. But let's look at the matchup. Firstly, if it comes in on a play nuke, it's toast. If M-Maw SD's, you're still not exactly in a nice position, as after the WoW (which still has a 15% chance to miss) it's still got a massive attack stat there to use. Ok, so let's say that Sableye comes in at the same time as M-Maw, or comes in on a M-Maw sucker punch, either of which seems too good to be true but let's ignore that fact. What happens next? Other than the 15% chance of WoW missing, M-Maw still play nukes it and wins the matchup. Or, it can set up a SD then nuke it, and still be in an extremely good position.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So even in a perfect scenario, one which seems far too good to actually happen in-game without the M-Maw player doing a better job, your supposed counter still ends up dead with M-Maw alive. So it's burned, so what? It's still got an annoyingly good defensive typing, decent attacking stats (even after the burn), and SD and sucker punch to be even more annoying with.

Ok, let's look at another one, Cofagrigus is a nice wall, right? Well, Play Nuke easily OHKOs at +2, and it's faster to boot. Great counter there. So let's say once again you have this godly position where you send it in at the same time. If it goes for the SD, you'll WoW right? And due to Mummy, it can't just attack off the bat. Well, here you've got another problem: It can switch. Seriously, if you happen to play well enough to bring it in at exactly the right time, no M-Maw player worth their salt will leave it in against something so obviously bulky and obviously running WoW. It can just come back in at another time, when Cofag doesn't come in at the same time as it, and beat it then. It's not a counter, it's barely even a check. Mummy means M-Maw has to switch out afterwards, but considering it just took out a pokemon that's really not such a massive sacrifice.


Now since I'm drunk and rambling: As with talonflame, a pokemon only needs to annihilate a number of teams to be broken enough for a ban. M-Maw destroys the majority of monotype teams. A few can just about play around it if used very well. The rest are left unable to do anything. And those that can do something often can only revenge kill in any case. And let's take a look at this:

Firstly, I don't know about you, but I always see Scarf Terrakion. It seems much better in the current metagame, outside of sticky web support on rock teams which is rather rare. Secondly, who even runs eq nowadays? The aegi ban made it less useful and often you'll see CC/SE/X-Scissor/Quick Attack or something because really it doesn't use the coverage outside of very occasionally. Thirdly, you've got a chance to KO after stealth rock and that's using an uncommon item and an uncommon move. Let's look at a more standard calc here:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah no.)

Needless to say, Terrakion doesn't survive the hit back, be it play nuke or iron head (which is important given this means it can hit the entire team hard, be it fighting or rock). And this can't even be when M-Maw first switches in, because there's no intimidate there. If you want that calc it gets even worse:

-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, Terrakion generally won't do anything. Similarly, Choice Specs Keldeo has about a 50% chance of revenge killing without SR. You're talking about a chance to revenge kill. Need I point out that literally any team could revenge kill Talonflame without problem? There are no counters to this thing in standard play without using specific teams which happen to have counters. On most teams, there are barely checks. And this is only one set, let's think about if M-Maw had set up sub instead of running the SD set. Heatran? lol. Terrakion? You broke the sub, cool story bruh.


Misunderstood you? I hope so, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Counterable? lol. Insanely strong? Yup, that's M-Maw summed up in two words. More banworthy than talon? Oooh yes. And we haven't even considered support such as klefki's screens or twave support.

tl;dr ban M-Maw. Dat shiz be borked as heck.

I'll say it again. Go look at the bottom of page 42. I wrote 2 posts saying how to beat it with bug psychic water and flying. Ghost does have trouble with it but honestly, Cofagriguscan burn it and temporarily eliminate Huge Power. Then you can bring in your set up sweeper and beat it the next time it comes in, although this can still be difficult sometime as Sucker is SE, but it is at least burned, allowing you to protect stall.

I am NOT the most skilled player at Mono, but I have never struggled with it while using the four types above. One is weak to Sucker, one to fire fang, and the other twoare two you said should struggle with it.

Mega Mawile is not the only set up sweeper that can destroy teams, and honestly sacrifices are sometimes needed to stop such Pokemon (I have found it quite common to have to sacrifice a Pokemon against something I have let set up in order to safely bring in my revenge killer). I have found Mega Sableye more dangerous than Mega Mawile.

Also, I run Band EQ Terrakion, although I dunno what other people run--I was just speaking from what I use. A chance is better than nothing (and fighting has mach punchers), sr is easy for fighting to get up, and again that's what item/move I use soooo....

Another point is that it doesn't instantly get to +2. People seem to be forgetting you can attack it then. Also, what Aegi ban is that? I thought it was banned on steel but legal on Ghost, is that right or has it changed?

 

[Anttya]

Chances or a full para are actually 1/4, despite many players seeming to believe (for whatever reason) that it is 1/2. This means that its chances of paraflinch with serene grace are 70% and without serene grace around 50% IIRC.

Other than that, however, I have to agree. M-Maw may be reliant on its ability but that's irrelevant. Due to its ability, its typing, its pre-evo ability, and its movepool, alongside a usable statline given these things, it's a very real threat, and I'd argue moreso than most things we see. InfernapeTropius11 you seem capable of providing a lot of revenge killers on fighting or possibly dark teams, however I've yet to see a counter and I've yet to see something on one of the teams that suffers more, such as a team weak to sucker punch or that simply can't handle it, e.g. ghost or ice.

For example, you might think that sableye could deal with M-Maw on ghost teams. But let's look at the matchup. Firstly, if it comes in on a play nuke, it's toast. If M-Maw SD's, you're still not exactly in a nice position, as after the WoW (which still has a 15% chance to miss) it's still got a massive attack stat there to use. Ok, so let's say that Sableye comes in at the same time as M-Maw, or comes in on a M-Maw sucker punch, either of which seems too good to be true but let's ignore that fact. What happens next? Other than the 15% chance of WoW missing, M-Maw still play nukes it and wins the matchup. Or, it can set up a SD then nuke it, and still be in an extremely good position.

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 351-414 (115.4 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So even in a perfect scenario, one which seems far too good to actually happen in-game without the M-Maw player doing a better job, your supposed counter still ends up dead with M-Maw alive. So it's burned, so what? It's still got an annoyingly good defensive typing, decent attacking stats (even after the burn), and SD and sucker punch to be even more annoying with.

Ok, let's look at another one, Cofagrigus is a nice wall, right? Well, Play Nuke easily OHKOs at +2, and it's faster to boot. Great counter there. So let's say once again you have this godly position where you send it in at the same time. If it goes for the SD, you'll WoW right? And due to Mummy, it can't just attack off the bat. Well, here you've got another problem: It can switch. Seriously, if you happen to play well enough to bring it in at exactly the right time, no M-Maw player worth their salt will leave it in against something so obviously bulky and obviously running WoW. It can just come back in at another time, when Cofag doesn't come in at the same time as it, and beat it then. It's not a counter, it's barely even a check. Mummy means M-Maw has to switch out afterwards, but considering it just took out a pokemon that's really not such a massive sacrifice.


Now since I'm drunk and rambling: As with talonflame, a pokemon only needs to annihilate a number of teams to be broken enough for a ban. M-Maw destroys the majority of monotype teams. A few can just about play around it if used very well. The rest are left unable to do anything. And those that can do something often can only revenge kill in any case. And let's take a look at this:

Firstly, I don't know about you, but I always see Scarf Terrakion. It seems much better in the current metagame, outside of sticky web support on rock teams which is rather rare. Secondly, who even runs eq nowadays? The aegi ban made it less useful and often you'll see CC/SE/X-Scissor/Quick Attack or something because really it doesn't use the coverage outside of very occasionally. Thirdly, you've got a chance to KO after stealth rock and that's using an uncommon item and an uncommon move. Let's look at a more standard calc here:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 160-190 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yeah no.)

Needless to say, Terrakion doesn't survive the hit back, be it play nuke or iron head (which is important given this means it can hit the entire team hard, be it fighting or rock). And this can't even be when M-Maw first switches in, because there's no intimidate there. If you want that calc it gets even worse:

-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah, Terrakion generally won't do anything. Similarly, Choice Specs Keldeo has about a 50% chance of revenge killing without SR. You're talking about a chance to revenge kill. Need I point out that literally any team could revenge kill Talonflame without problem? There are no counters to this thing in standard play without using specific teams which happen to have counters. On most teams, there are barely checks. And this is only one set, let's think about if M-Maw had set up sub instead of running the SD set. Heatran? lol. Terrakion? You broke the sub, cool story bruh.


Misunderstood you? I hope so, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Counterable? lol. Insanely strong? Yup, that's M-Maw summed up in two words. More banworthy than talon? Oooh yes. And we haven't even considered support such as klefki's screens or twave support.

tl;dr ban M-Maw. Dat shiz be borked as heck.

I fully agree with Drunk on Wings, Mega Maw is the definition of broken. When you're running weird stuff such as LO Krook / Band Terrakion just to deal with Mega Maw, then that's more than enough to warrant a ban. As for the Hydro Pump calc, Fairy happens to have a shit ton of Sp Def walls and they all happen to resist Sword so RIP Keldeo.

As for Maw being counterable, it isn't. Sure, some pokes can take a hit or two, but chances are, Maw's teammates can steamroll over it. if they can't, then run the appropriate coverage move. maw gets Fire Fang and Brick Break after all. Actually, let me tell you how to use Maw effectively. If you send it in early when its checks are still healthy then you're stupid. Let your teammates weaken / kill them before sending Maw in. Or if you're using Steel, then wreck stuff with Maw (vaguely remember you saying 3 Pokes is how many Pokes Maw kills before it dies.) Switch out at the brink of death, use Healing Wish (Jirachi) then RIP the other 3 Pokes. Seriously, the checks you mentioned earlier can easily be played around. Skarm gets ruined by Fire Fang so no Roost stalling there. Heatran says hello if you try to stall. For Swamp, a majority of steel types wall Swamp so easily and Togekiss is immune to Eq and can para flinch it to death. And please, even lower ladder doesn't sucker punch a Terrakion.

Edit: As for 50/50s, it's kinda absurd to have to leave things up to chance just to kill something. Don't forget that losing the 50/50 will cost you the game.

Edit 2.0: Copy and pasted from another thread

Thirdly, just because you beat Mega Mawile while you have an Elo rating of 1000 does not mean its not broken. If you want to use battle statistics in your argument, look at the top tier battles, the VR posters, the Tourney scene, use really good examples. Its much harder to refuse your points if you are a highly respected battler, usually because it means people trust and respect your opinion, regardless as to which way you vote. The lower you are on the ladder, the less Mega mawile will be used successfully and intelligently, so please bear that in mind.

Sixthly, don't assume a suspect (say Mega Mawile) will stay in on your Sun boosted, Blaze boosted Choice Specs Overheat. An earlier argument I saw was someone posting a load of calculations and saying "LOL MAWILE GETS OHKOed BY CHANDELURE". Thats A+ logic mate, but Mega Mawile isn't setting up on a Charizard Y, instead, its coming in on a choice locked dragon move, a resisted attack, a -1 pokemon that lacks an effective means to do severe damage, etc. Posting a list of pokemon that can OHKO Mega Mawile means jack shit if you need to sacrifice a pokemon to get your check in safely. Its not setting up, and its not staying in.


This guy's harsh lol

 

[Croven]

K, I've been watching this discussion to much amusement, and while DoW and Ant pretty much summed everything up, I decided to step in to cover a loose end or two.

I'll say it again. Go look at the bottom of page 42. I wrote 2 posts saying how to beat it with bug psychic water and flying. Ghost does have trouble with it but honestly, Cofagriguscan burn it and temporarily eliminate Huge Power.

Yes, you did write a couple posts about how to beat it. Now allow me to quote you here:

Bug: Sash Galvantula is a common lead for bug, and Spin support is easy to provide with Forretress/Armaldo. Then Banded Scizor Bullet Punch can KO, or put it in range for Mega-Pinsir to KO. Worst case scenario, you lose two Pokemon (which is a lot, I know, but it can check M-Mawile). Usually, you will lose Galvantula (it's a sacrifice lead anyway so no big deal) and Scizor can KO. OR: it switches out, losing the boosts and allowing Scizor to bash through other members of its fairy team with a SE STAB. Best case scenario you lose Galvantula (I'll repeat, not a big deal as it is usually your lead that sets webs then proceeds to attack until it dies) and Scizor can KO M-Mawile and kill/dent the rest of them pesky fairies. If all else fails (i.e. these Pokemon are all dead or something :s), then you still have Volcarona, whose combo of Fiery Dance SE STAB and Flame Body can kill Mega Mawile (especially bulky Roost versions).

Sash Galv: My name is Stealth Rocks. Spin support is easy to provide? Which of those has reliable recovery and can switch into Diancie several times? Forretress is just setup fodder for Mawile itself, usually netting the monster another kill. Armaldo gets smacked around by Diamond Storms, and is not switching in consistently:

4 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 218-258 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nice spinner.

Scizor: Yes, an issue for Fairy, but not a solid answer for Mawile. IIRC, isn't Mawile the best way to beat Scizor with Fairy?

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

That's not even taking into account Reflect from Klefki or Intimidate. Also, Klefki can Twave Scizor and make it susceptible to Sucker Punch, so uh....

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 329-388 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

They call me a counter. Oh, and this part I personally enjoyed a lot:

then you still have Volcarona, whose combo of Fiery Dance SE STAB and Flame Body can kill Mega Mawile

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Volcarona: 353-416 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Flame Body huh? 30% chances are reliable, as seen in Scald yes? But sadly, there's a 70% chance that it won't activate, and that your team will get swept by a she-monster

I have found Mega Sableye more dangerous than Mega Mawile.

And people are calling for a M-Sableye ban too, so not the best argument. Not gonna get into Sableye though, that's for another time.

Another point is that it doesn't instantly get to +2. People seem to be forgetting you can attack it then.

Do you honestly think any competent player will setup on something that can hurt it? Against any team with a bulky mon, such as Forretress, Mawile can easily target that mon and setup on it. And there's also something I believe you are forgetting: since when did Mawile need to set up to become a threat? Nothing is going to switch in on it and take 2 hits, even if one is a "non-STAB" Sucker Punch (which also hits harder than goddamn Life Orb'ed Arceus's Espeed - no idea how that's not strong).

Tl;dr I approve of what DoW and Ant said, and no offense, but you need more experience and most of your arguments are not really helpful at all.

Dat shiz be borked as heck.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

You know what? Fine, whatever, I guess I was only arguing for it cuz nobody else was and I thought that some points should have been raised, but go ahead, ban it. It won't affect me that much cuz I've never used it outside of Ubers, and I've never struggled with it but you guys have all had different experiences so whatever. Also, to address DoW, I'm pretty sure parachance is 50% in the card game (not sure though it's been a few years), so that's why I thought it was 50% (or maybe it's just that it seems like it occurs more often than 25% when you are battling).

 

[Aquaslash]

I fully agree with Drunk on Wings, Mega Maw is the definition of broken. When you're running weird stuff such as LO Krook / Band Terrakion just to deal with Mega Maw, then that's more than enough to warrant a ban.

I disagree with this point entirely. Sometimes you have to run weird stuff just to SURVIVE, especially in monotype. As a Dark user, I've found that I HAVE to have LO Crawdaunt on my team for the sole purpose of stopping Volcarona. There's just way to many things that he can come in and set up quiver dances on for free and once he gets rolling, that's an easy sweep. Oh sure, you can say "muh stealth rocks", but bug is probably the single most prepared type to remove hazards. I have tyranitar, but most good Volcarona players know how to easily get around him.

Even after all this, I'd never call for a volcarona ban, just cause he steamrolls my type. That's just weak.

 

[Anttya]

I disagree with this point entirely. Sometimes you have to run weird stuff just to SURVIVE, especially in monotype. As a Dark user, I've found that I HAVE to have LO Crawdaunt on my team for the sole purpose of stopping Volcarona. There's just way to many things that he can come in and set up quiver dances on for free and once he gets rolling, that's an easy sweep. Oh sure, you can say "muh stealth rocks", but bug is probably the single most prepared type to remove hazards. I have tyranitar, but most good Volcarona players know how to easily get around him.

Even after all this, I'd never call for a volcarona ban, just cause he steamrolls my type. That's just weak.

Sorry bout that, there was a difference between your weird and my definition of weird. (Subpar maybe?) Stuff like Av T-Tar and LO Crawdaunt are pretty good overall while LO Krook and Band Terrakion are only useful against certain threats (cough Maw cough)

 

[Camper Kablo]

Well I tried to discuss this in the chat but they told me to post it to the forums, so...

Don't you guys think Protean is against everything Monotype stands for?

I know there is this thing of banning Greninja now, but this goes for the 4 pokes that get Protean and not only Gren. (Froakie, Frogadier, Greninja and Kecleon)

I don't mean to qq but honestly, we all here choose one type and stick to it. Build teams around it, make strats, check viability rankings, but having a pokemon that can change it's typing constantly, getting stabs and new resistances all the time, doesn't make the Monotype thing kinda pointless?

While I don't think it's banworth, it is ironic or even contradictory. We could also say that Forest's Curse, Trick-or-Treat or Soak are contradictory as well, but they are so rare and unique... Not to mention it changes the target's type, not yours.

What do you guys think?

 

[Freeroamer]

Because my reasoning so far has been fragmented to an extent due to trying to reply to other people's posts, I'll summarise my entire feeling about it here.

Why is it ban worthy?

• Capable of threatening any play style or team type due to its sheer power and movepool options. Sucker Punch ruins many a would-be good offensive answer, while Swords Dance annihilates bulkier archetypes. STABs+Sucker hits pretty much everything in the game that isn't a very bulky Steel or Fire type for massive damage, and it can even run Fire Fang over it's Steel STAB to alleviate this issue with Steel types. Sucker Punch is a fantastic move for Mawile, as it undoes most attempts to offensively check it thanks to Dark's great coverage this gen, being resisted only by Dark, Fighting and Fairy types. Dark and Fighting are both smacked by Fairy STAB while the generally physically frail Fairies anyway are destroyed by Steel STAB. Resisting STAB Dark and Fairy moves and having high physical bulk to take the majority of physical Fighting hits only helps to make Sucker even more useful. There are obviously offensive checks but not many, and nothing can beat everything.
• Creates an unhealthily lopsided matchup against multiple type teams in the metagame. Gnief touched on this earlier in the thread, but it's fantastic typing and it's nice bulk gives it an incredible advantage over many a type. It's typing gives it 11 resistances and 2 immunities in exchange for only 2 weaknesses. This gives it an insane amount of set-up opportunities or just opportunities to fire off those STAB attacks which many a team has no switch in for. This is what makes it so hard to deal with for some teams, as it doesn't need to set up to destroy some teams like Fighting which there have been a lot of checks mentioned for. These types have literally no counterplay if it just clicks Play Rough or Iron Head every time it comes in on something it can force out. This means it can take out 2-3 members of a team every time if played right. This is common for Ice, Rock, Grass, Bug, Dark and even opposing Fairy teams. That means it decimates 1/3 of the common types by itself, and still has a great matchup against many others such as Psychic and Poison.
• Requires sub-optimal strategies to try and beat it. This is something anttya already covered, so just read her post. Running stuff that severely hinders a Pokemon's role and ability to do its job effectively generally construes that a Pokemon is broken. One of the best examples of this I've seen is the swampert set you posted, yeah it can check Mawile but in every other matchup it detracts from Swampert's role of being Water's best Stealth Rock setter and checking threatening Electric type attackers.

You know what? Fine, whatever, I guess I was only arguing for it cuz nobody else was and I thought that some points should have been raised, but go ahead, ban it. It won't affect me that much cuz I've never used it outside of Ubers, and I've never struggled with it but you guys have all had different experiences so whatever. Also, to address DoW, I'm pretty sure parachance is 50% in the card game (not sure though it's been a few years), so that's why I thought it was 50% (or maybe it's just that it seems like it occurs more often than 25% when you are battling).

It's fine to raise these points, at the end of the day this thread is to discuss stuff like this, but when there's so obviously a strong feeling against it and your points have been answered by multiple people, it's best just to accept it. This isn't the best metric to go by, but if I went into the mono chat and asked should mega Mawile be banned, 95% of people would instantly go yes because it's just not healthy for the metagame.

Well I tried to discuss this in the chat but they told me to post it to the forums, so...

I know there is this thing of banning Greninja now, but this goes for the 4 pokes that get Protean and not only Gren. (Froakie, Frogadier, Greninja and Keckleon)

I don't mean to qq but honestly, we all here choose one type and stick to it. Build teams around it, make strats, check viability rankings, but having a pokemon that can change it's typing constantly, getting stabs and new resistances all the time, doesn't make the Monotype thing kinda pointless?

While I don't think it's banworth, it is ironic or even contradictory. We could also say that Forest's Curse, Trick-or-Treat or Soak are contradictory as well, but they are so rare and unique... Not to mention it changes the target's type, not yours.

What do you guys think?

I've discussed Greninja in the past, being a Ground user means it gives me immense trouble but you're right, I don't think it's ban worthy either. There's not really an established ban criteria, but if I was to suggest one, it'd be if the Pokemon in question singlehandedly turns what should be even matchups into massively one-sided matchups to the point if unwinnable in multiple instances. By this I don't mean if a Pokemon on Fighting teams is too much for Ice teams, because without a stupid amount of bans that'll never be even. By the same stretch, you have to consider what is unwinnable and what isn't, sure Dark with Greninja is hard for Ground, but it isn't unwinnable.

I disagree with this point entirely. Sometimes you have to run weird stuff just to SURVIVE, especially in monotype. As a Dark user, I've found that I HAVE to have LO Crawdaunt on my team for the sole purpose of stopping Volcarona. There's just way to many things that he can come in and set up quiver dances on for free and once he gets rolling, that's an easy sweep. Oh sure, you can say "muh stealth rocks", but bug is probably the single most prepared type to remove hazards. I have tyranitar, but most good Volcarona players know how to easily get around him.

Even after all this, I'd never call for a volcarona ban, just cause he steamrolls my type. That's just weak.

I agree that you will see stuff here that you would never normally see in standard tiers because they provide useful offensive/defensive synergy or are simply used due to a lack of options. However you have to class the difference between what is good in its own right compared to what you're being forced to use to beat just one threat. LO Crawdaunt provides strong priority, is a killer to defensively orientated teams thanks to those hugely powerful STABs and as you say, snipes Volcarona.

 

[Aquaslash]

In my short time of using Fairy, I honestly feel like more teams are prepared for mawile to mitigate its issues. Mawile's actually been merely cleanup crew along with Diancie. If anything, Azumarill is a far bigger threat, especially when he's got Togekiss and Klefki to back him up and spread paralysis. Belly-Jet Azumarill just plain wrecks to the point that I feel that if mawile loses her Mega, Fairy won't be any less dangerous. Half the time Diancie ends up being the mega anyway.