Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

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Elevator Music said:
Dunno if I should put this in a new thread. I've been working on updating the CAP learnsets, I've finished all the Gen 4 CAPs. If people could look them over for accuracy that'd be great.

Just as a note, I edited the Gen 6 tutors to include Focus Punch/Shock Wave/Water Pulse if the Pokemon got it any other way. Also, Colossoil was missing Hyper Beam for Gen 5 and Gen 6, so I added it in for those (there are a couple other moves like that for various CAPs, and I left notes in the spreadsheet as such).

Comments/questions/feedback welcome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gNDmnvcmZorweSr2b_XXukMKL0OKD35F_JXh7je-ocA/edit?usp=sharing
(changed the link)
Click to expand...

I've updated this so that it includes all CAPs, and made some fixes that were pointed out to me. If people could continue to look these over for errors it'd be much appreciated. Either just VM/PM me the error, comment in here, or comment in the sheet itself I guess.

I also included a "Real Cost" for each CAP, which is basically just the total MC required to max taking into account the free moves you get when purchasing a Pokemon.
 
Does the substitute inherit the effects of held items? Because if yes then Focus Band breaks Substitute (and substitute breaks Focus Band). I think not. I don't think it inherits. But ingame needs to be checked. And if ingame says yes, I would revisit Focus Band to not effect substitutes.
 
Frosty said:
Does the substitute inherit the effects of held items? Because if yes then Focus Band breaks Substitute (and substitute breaks Focus Band). I think not. I don't think it inherits. But ingame needs to be checked. And if ingame says yes, I would revisit Focus Band to not effect substitutes.
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/llama-pool-b-r1-s0l1d-g0ld-vs-avnomke.3525467/#post-5959648

Judging by how type-resist berries are treated ingame, Focus Band does not affect substitutes.
 
Hey can we talk about how honestly stupid Toggle abilities are? It's been annoying for a while but it's just time for a change already. I would love to see a valid argument for why being able to activate or deactivate abilities while ordering second breaks a mon, as right now it acts more of a punishment for forgetting to activate the ability on sendout (which is sometimes even debated whether you can do it or not- see Trace)
 
The arguement is that the person ordering first should be able to do so with full knowledge of everything about the opposing pokemon. For example I might not sub against having my speed lowered if all the sheer force mon has to do so is bulldoze and icy wind but then all of a sudden they are able to chuck the ability off after I have ordered and Bulldoze me action 1 then Dig under all of my attacks.

I do however support the idea of modifying these abilities so that the most often used version is the default, since several of them are strangely the oposite (ie Sheer Force and Contrary) while for whatever reason Protean is on by default.

As far as Trace goes once again I feel it is important for he ordering first to be as informed as possible (queue obligatory comment about ordering first being hard enough as it is). What I have seen done (and even participated in myself) is allowing the Trace user an option to trace an ability after the opponent has sent out but before ordering. It adds a couple extra steps to the process which is slightly annoying but pretty much the fairest way to do it for all involved. Turn order basically becomes: send out Krill > opponent sends out > Krill traces > opponent orders > Krill orders.
 
So, migraine inducers of the day;

  • There is no clarification of priorities of moves called by Sleep Talk. Any objection to giving it one similar to Copycat?
    • On that note, we could probably do with clarification on moves like Outrage, and how they act
  • Substitutions are bypassable by using move(s) under sleep talk. Is this a major problem, or should we leave it be?
 
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I have no objections to making Sleep Talk act similarly to Copycat. As for substitution bypassing, I'd say that it'd be fine to leave it as is, because Sleep Talk only has a 25% chance to call the desired move anyway, so the player using Sleep Talk is basically relying on luck at this point.
 
Sleep Talk calls things like Roar et al at 0 priority so it should just be at the priority of Sleep Talk to match in-game precedent wrt priority of called move.
 
Regarding the second matter, the way I see it:

If you use a "IF Ice Punch THEN (...)" and the opponent uses Sleep Talk, that sub becomes a condition sub. Something like "IF Ice Punch is ordered or if it is called by sleep talk". I know that the rules say that if I say "IF MOVE" I mean only "IF move is ordered", but:
a) I don't care
b) Technically Ice Punch was being potentially ordered. It is in that lovely gray area between "it surely was ordered" and "it surely wasn't ordered". That kind of doubt justifies special interpretations imo.

Anyway, reading that as "if ice punch is picked" it is treated as a chance sub, so if the faster mon is putting that sub, it is illegal on the grounds that it can't forsee stuff. We can go the other way and say that Sleep Talk (Ice Punch X X X) = Ice Punch, but that will make the sub even more prone to abuse.

Warrants discussion imo. Our current sub rules don't have a clear way to deal with sleep talk/metronome/assist and the like. We might as well.
 
Let's see if I can make a post here that isn't just me complaining.

Currently, Skill Swap is as follows:

DAT said:
Skill Swap: The user fires up to three beams that connect with the target(s). Each beam switches one of the user's Abilities with one of the target's. Each beam must be resolved fully before the next beam may be processed. If the match rules include All Abilities, and the user has less than three (3) Abilities, they may elect to give their targets nothing in exchange for the stolen Ability. When a Pokemon affected by Skill Swap leaves play, their Abilities are restored to normal.
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I have a problem with this for several reason. First, this effect lasts until the opposing Pokemon switches out, which isn't always an option for that player (i.e. if that's their last Pokemon), whereas a lot of permanent effects in the games are given temporary ones in ASB. Second, lets look at some of the more prominent Skill Swappers:

Gardevoir
Gallade
Gengar

There are many others, but these are the main ones. Every one of these Pokemon is a high tier threat, and have an ability they won't mind giving up in exchange for an ability, with the exception of Gengar. Which brings me to my third point, if you have less than three abilities in an All Abilities (and let's be honest, when was the last time you saw a One Ability match?) then you get to outright take an ability from your opponent for nothing in return. In one move. Not only is this effect not present in the games but it becomes exceptionally strong if you end up, say, with a Gengar vs Mega Kangaskhan matchup and you steal Scrappy (causing his attacks to potentially miss) and Parental Bond. And then Gengar Mega Evolves to ruin your day.

I think these reasons are sufficient to put this move under the magnifying lens.
 
Okay lets respond to thing..

- Sleep Talk calling everything at Priority 0 makes the most sense and we should codify it as such.
- As Frosty said the subs bit warrants discussion. I'm inclined to let IF X be equivalent to IF X OR IF Sleep Talk calls X myself.
- I really don't think adding a duration to Skill Swap would be an altogether bad thing. Lots of other things that are permanent in game have a duration here in ASB.

And one new point:
Freeze is shit. It's completely random and almost every time it pops up it completely fucks you. I get that it does the exact same thing in game (ie it fucks you there too) but it might be nice to at least consider ideas to make it less epically frustrating.
 
About Maxim's Skill Swap issue: There's one nitpick I have about the "3 Abilities maximum" part, which basically got thrown out of the window with the advent of, let's say, Hyper Cutter / Intimidate / Sheer Force / Huge Power Mega-Mawile. In fact, Basculin was hipster long before Megas exist. Also, aside from the prime abusers Maxim mentioned, most of the Skill Swappers in-catridge already has decent abilities, except maybe a couple who had nothing but Levitate. I'd suggest that you absolutely need to trade one Ability for another to avoid these "I'll just take your Ability and give nothing back" scenarios as a slight nerf, but deadfox's suggestion seems pretty okay too. Support for Discussion.

TSRD's Trace and ww' Toggle Abilities: Support for Discussion in that at least we should, uh, re-clarify stuff.

EDIT:
About Freeze: When Gale started posting about nerfing full paralysis it got me into sarcasm mode. Sorry, really had to vent some here. How about we abolish status effects as a whole? Burns screw physical attackers, and Poison screws Endure too, so let's just scrap them off! Okay done venting. Please remember that statistically, you're more likely to get flinched twice in a row by a faster Rock Slider, than you are to get frozen solid for 2 actions. Heck, your chances of being frozen solid for 2 actions is equal to your chance of being paralysed twice in a row right after getting struck by a Thunder Wave equivalent. Sure, freezes are frustrating, but a part of the reason why it does is because it has a terribly low chance of happening under normal circumstances. Please sit back, chill out, and reconsider this nerf freeze motion.
 
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alright so discussions:

1) Softboiled (Pass): Alright, we can work with that I suppose. Can someone implement this please? I have 0 NDA access. Also, please add Chill to Choice items and give levitate command to Mega CharX, Mega Gyara and Mega Altaria. Thanks.
2) Self-KO Clause: I see Explosion, Self-Destruct and Final Gambit as very similar and probably would pair them together without any problem. I am just not sure if Memento, Lunar Dance and Healing Wish can also fall on the same category. If people agree with this I can just implement it (seems minor enough imo), but I would like some feedback on the matter.
3) Trace and Toggle Shenaningans: Will be moved to discussion as soon as someone bothers to make said discussion
4) Vicegrip: Vicegrip is a lousy action otherwise and that effect gives it at least some niche. Would like some other input before moving to discussion. I am not implementing it right away as I really don't see the point.
5) Substitutions interactions with Sleep Talk, Assist, Metronome and similar moves: Will be moved to discussion as soon as someone bothers to make said discussion
6) Skill Swap: The move is quite strong and often used. Warrants a discussion IMO. As soon as someone bothers to make said discussion
7) Freeze: Personally I'd be inclined to just make it 1a by default (2a freeze is just argh), but would like more opinions on the matter before sending to discussion.
 
My 2 cents...

2) Self-KO Clause: I see Explosion, Self-Destruct and Final Gambit as very similar and probably would pair them together without any problem. I am just not sure if Memento, Lunar Dance and Healing Wish can also fall on the same category. If people agree with this I can just implement it (seems minor enough imo), but I would like some feedback on the matter.

Imo, We can have a clause saying "Damaging Suicide/Self-KO/Self-Destruct moves". Which would not include Memento, Lunar Dance and Healing Wish as these moves are not as effective as The Damaging ones. Also Taunt and Snatch disrupts these moves (except for memento). 48 Pokemon (Including base evolutions) have Self Destruct and Explosion. Whereas, Memento-Lunar Dance-Healing Wish are not commonly found together.

Edit: I didn't see Tomohawk @_@

4) Vicegrip: Vicegrip is a lousy action otherwise and that effect gives it at least some niche. Would like some other input before moving to discussion. I am not implementing it right away as I really don't see the point.

I feel that its a move that can be worked around and doesn't warrant a nerf.

Edit: I agree with Akela that we can remove Sucker Punch's codified combination with Vice Grip, So Vicegrip + Sucker Punch would still work; but it would not give the invulnerability effect as other moves (Bite, "Fang" Moves, Crunch, Guillotine).

7) Freeze: Personally I'd be inclined to just make it 1a by default (2a freeze is just argh), but would like more opinions on the matter before sending to discussion.

I also feel that 2a Freeze can be brought down to 1a Freeze to reduce the randomness with which they occur. I also don't like paralysis effect and Fully paralyzed sucks. Except for sleep and to an extent poison, the other two status are a pain when it happens to either players pokemon and if we are thinking of freeze we should think of Paralysis too and may be confusion?
 
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^ Thats probably a fair request. Like our freeze discussion one action of being able to do bupkiss is probably sufficient for Vicegrip combos
 
Other than Mawile and Smeargle and the opponent using a contact combination attack, it will never make a difference if it doesn't last through cool down. Or have we forgotten about priority of a combination attack using 2 zero priority attacks?

It would probably be simpler and less of a drastic nerf if we just removed Sucker Punch from the list of moves that Combine with Vice Grip.
 
An idea I had was to make Sucker Punch+Vice Grip prevent contact moves on the action it's used but make it not last through cooldown unlike Bite/Fang/Crunch/Guillotine.

Also can we buff the elemental plates because as it stands now they're p. much inferior to Charcoal/Sharp Beak/etc. unless used on a mon x4 weak to that type.
 
Geodude6 said:
Also can we buff the elemental plates because as it stands now they're p. much inferior to Charcoal/Sharp Beak/etc. unless used on a mon x4 weak to that type.
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The plates were designed with Arceus in mind. Why bother buffing them when the whole point of the plates is to fulfil Arceus' Gimmick of having its typing different through the use of plates and making its appropriate STAB far stronger?

No.
 
Plates originally had 3BAP. They were nerfed to 2BAP when they were put available for purchase because at 3 they kinda outshine the elemental items as most of the time the type you will be spamming is one SE against your opponent. Between Elemental Items and Plates it would make more sense to boost elemental items for flavor reasons I think.

Although most of the time they both lose to rare candy/everstone so ignore that logic <_<;.


ANYWAY.

Mat Block.

Mat Block has some many weird things wrong. Let me list them:
a) It isn't considered a protective move, even though it works as protect for damaging attacks. The first use blocks all damaging moves and the later uses, following the footsteps of Fake Out, are just protect for damaging moves and with 0 priority.
b) You can use Protect - Mat Block - Protect and have them all work just fine
c) Mat Block doesn't have extra EN cost according to damage blocked, even if it works exactly like protect for those kinds of attack.
d) Heck, why the hell should it have an use after the first one? Fake Out at least brought something new to the table as not many mons have priority that fast. But Mat Block either is outclassed or outclasses Protect (if you are faster, which you will be, and the opponent uses a damaging move, mat block is strictly better and if now protect is your move) and you don't need to have both, other than to mess around with substitutes (especially given that it isn't considered a protective move as far as substitutions go).

a, c and d are somewhat debatable, but protect-matblock-protect just seems wrong. I know ingame precedent and all, but c'mon <_<;.
 
Just found a what may be broken aspect to Focus Band. Will Counter, Bide, Mirror Coat, Endeavour, Metal Burst, or any equivalent move deal no more than 20 damage? Take the following for example:
  • Focus Band Sawsbuck uses Horn Leech on Rhydon. We all know what that means.
  • Rhydon uses Counter.
Will Rhydon's Counter deal only 20 damage to Sawsbuck?
 
What's the current status of Telepathy, when combined with abilities that provide immunities + other benefits (Storm Drain, LightingRod, Volt Absorb)? Not entirely clear atm :x
 
I would say to absorb and get a +1 Special Attack for Snugglow/Plasmanta with an ally's Surf since that is the only way both could be activated, barring arena effects, Role Play, Skill Swap, and the like. If Snugglow/Plasmanta becomes OP in doubles+ this way, we can always change it.
 
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