Oh I wasn't the one who posted, I was just telling you why adilbilal said it.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
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I can't really agree with swampert sitting at a+ if mega swampert is at a-.
Also I don't really like florges above Aromatisse and blissey.
Also I don't really like florges above Aromatisse and blissey.
Mega Swampert's can be worn down very easily with leftovers, and it requires rain to be effective in its optimal roll. Florges has better special bulk as well as being able to pass bigger wishes than aromatisse, so it is ranked higher. Blissey flat out has a worse defensive typing than Florges.
Just because Mega Swampert has swift swim doesn't mean you automatically pair it with Rain or use Rain Dance it its set. Mega Swampert can run the same defensive set as Swampert but with greater bulk power and speed (important for slower mons like the Machamp level tier). And a trick immunity which is great for Jirachi.
The only downside is Leftovers and taking up a mega slot and torrent. Leftovers isn't exactly the end of the world seeing as your extra bulk makes up. Taking up a mega slot is important but yeah not that important because he is a nice mega. Torrent isn't really game breaking.
Florges passes smaller wishes than Aromatisse and the much weaker defense means more vulnerability to the moves it should resist and take comfortably like Knock Off and Close Combat and U-Turn.
Typing is important but doesn't mean everything. Blissey has more overall defense HP and special defense and better recovery slightly (softboiled>synthesis, wish blissey >>>> wish florges). It also has natural cure.
This is barely as issue I didn't want to start a disucssion, I wanted to remind whoever is in charge to move Mega Swampert up/ swampert regular down. Blissey and Florges and Aromatisse might merit a little more discussion but I am pretty certain too Blissey should be at least equal to Florges or higher. Same with Aromatisse. basically no offense dude but you're flat out wrong.
Taking up a mega slot is huge because there are several megas that are better than swampert. Residual damage can be partially healed off by lefties and damp stops exploding azelfs and bronzongs. Also, regular swampert's "bad defenses" are still a very decent 100/90/90. The point of swampert being higher ranked is because it doesn't have an opportunity cost like mega swampert does. Swampert isn't as good a mon overall as mega swampert, but the difference isn't big enough to warrant using mega swampert over mega aerodactyl or mega houndoom.
To address your other argument, Florges' typing allows it to resist or completely dodge the most common types in the tier: fighting, dark, dragon, and bug, three of which hit blissey normally and one hits it for super effective damage. Aromatisse only has 4 stat points more in physical bulk than florges, but florges has a whopping 65 stat points more in special defense than aromatisse. Also, Florges is 46 stat points faster than aromatisse, so it can outspeed common base 29-74 mons that don't run speed investment that aromatisse. Aromatisse of course is better with trick room, but florges doesn't need that turn to set up. Lastly, Florges can form a physical special wall core with a physically defensive mon whereas aromatisse's defenses are too low to be able to be considered a wall on either end.
hilarious although Florges, Aromatisse, and Blissey all hold similar roles, iirc Florges now can run a CM set of CM/Synthesis/MoonBlast/Aromatherapy, which neither aromatisse nor blissey can run. This set allows it to be usable on other playstyles and most importantly, provide an unique niche as a decent boosting sweeper + cleric.
It was along these lines that he was rated lower:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-viability-ranking-thread-take-2.3523649/#post-5903601
The problem being right now with rain, if you do want to better differentiate the mega from the normal, is that rain has become much harder to set up than the initial metagame at which Mega Swampert was introduced, you had Sableye and Kelfki available, whereas now the pool of strong rain setters have diminished. Otherwise, the point in the earlier post still stands that normal pert ironically is capable of running more sets with items than his mega form without the opportunity cost.
This isn't exactly a reminder thread it is first and foremost a discussion as everyone has been doing so with the past 10 pages when they make a nomination... like it or not you'll have to discuss the merits of Mega Pert over its regular form to be that much substantive of an upgrade.
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I know saying "this isn't up for discussion!!!!!!! you're wrong!!!" is a little bit abrasive. Still I wanted to remind you guys about Mega Pert. I really did not want discussion on Swampert vs Mega Pert ranking you have better things to do. And I still think I'm right.
You can look at http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/priority-rain.3526472/ This looks like a fine rain team and it doesn't seem so incredibly hard to make. You can also use Mega Swampert on a non rain team because you can use Rain Dance on itself and I suspect it would be pretty nice.
Anyways don't tell me about CB Swampert being stronger than Mega Swampert and imply that makes it better. Sure CB Pert is somewhat stronger but again Mega Pert is bulkier and faster which really begins to matter here and can switch moves. And that post was wrong by the way Mega Pert can run curse or Power up Punch or Rain to be stronger or just as strong as CB Pert. In rain Mega Pert's Waterfall will do about as much as CB Pert's Eq or just a tiny tiny tiny bit more on average.
I really cannot understand why you think Mega Swampert is worse than Swampert. I just said in my last post you can forget about rain being essential to mega pert. It is not necessary. But it is a fantastic boost if you do elect to run it. Can Swampert sweep well made teams? Almost no chance bar a curse set which is still extremely unlikely. Can Mega Swampert sweep? Sure it can and it can use a Curse set if you really feel like it.
Mega Swampert is better than Swampert. It has a higher opportunity cost because its a mega for sure. Are you seriously going to say that is making Swampert A+ and Mega Pert A-?
Also Mega Pert can be purely defensive. I just had to throw that out there because of the link you put out. I use a fully specially defensive Rest Talk set. It is not bad. No Leftovers is bad. trick immunity is good though. And frankly Leftovers can barely be assumed consistently with Knock Off running around everywhere. it is absolutely not significant enough to make Swampert better than its mega.
As for Florges fine I admit I didn't think about mono CM set. I don't really think its particularly good but okay then. It would be nice if it could swap its spdef with def then it might be a very good CMer. I still think Blissey and Aromatisse is at least as good as Florges overall since the other points I mentioned before are more important or as important as an obscure CM set.
Considering that the point against MPert is better differentiating itself from its regular form they actually are related, no different than needing to discuss Latios VS MLatios (which is the most similar case here). The problem is the set you use SpD Curse set while able to sweep teams isn't exactly bypassing issues that the normal Pert faces more or less, it is an upgrade over normal form but you're overselling how "easy" it is to sweep with the set in the first place (especially when you have prolific grass types - and about to get a new one with Serperior's HA release today which definitely not something water types are going to look forward to as well as Chesnaught and Celebi which has also risen).
CM set isn't exactly obscure though it has risen somewhat in popularity considering it actually helped the revival of Florges' popularity looking at the stats, which otherwise did lose a lot of popularity prior. While the moveset stats aren't available, due to some issues, I wouldn't say it is as obscure as you feel it to be. If not CM then Synthesis clearly has been a boon for Florges at least, in freeing up some move slots. I think the thing here is that being passive has become a point against Aroma and Blissey as of late, leafing through the viability thread discussions, which Florges at least has been better spared off by being able to run CM sets thanks to synthesis removing its reliance on wish-tect.
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I think that this argument is a bit analogous to "Latios vs. Mega Latios" discussion that popped up at the start of ORAS. Although Mega-Latios has arguably better stats than Latios, it's considered inferior because stuff like LO Latios hits harder than its Mega forme. All that Mega-Latios has over its counterpart is a better Dragon Dance set. This premise can be applied similarly to the Swampert/Mega-Swampert argument.
Rather than comparing offensive output, Mega-Swampert vs. Swampert is a comparison of defensive potential. The argument on this front is more straightforward simply because there are no items that boost defenses in the same way offense has Life Orb/Choice Items/etc., and we can clearly see that Mega Swampert is bulker than Swampert. However, one of the main points of argument here is the importance of Leftovers. Here's an example calc of both Swamperts (running the exact same EV spread) tanking potential versus a AssVest Machamp's DynamicPunch:
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 139-165 (34.6 - 41.1%)
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mega Swampert: 121-144 (30.1 - 35.9%)
So after stomaching one DynamicPunch from Machamp, we can clearly see that Mega Swampert takes much less damage across the board as well as has a more compact damage percentage range than normal Swampert. Factoring in Leftovers, Swampert loses a net health percentage of (28.4 - 34.9%), which is on average 1.35% damage less than what Mega Swampert takes. However, it is of note that Swampert has a higher percentage of being 3HKO'd by Machamp than what Mega Swampert has (due to the nature of Leftovers).
Now that we have established damage calculations, we can safely generalize that Swampert takes hits slightly better than Mega Swampert. Defensively, Swampert doesn't gain any significant defensive benefits through Mega-Evolution. Thus, we bring up the argument of opportunity cost, or whatever the fuck people use to define it. We have to start asking ourselves why we want to use Mega-Swampert. Why burn a Mega-slot for a Swampert that takes roughly the same amount of damage its standard form that hits slightly harder? It's not like Swampert received a significant boost in defenses or gained a really good defensive ability that makes its Mega-forme's defensive potential worth investing in. It's somewhat analogous to arguing the team-slot efficiency of a Blissey vs. Aromatisse vs. Florges vs. whatever. You want to maximize the efficiency of your team, so you would pick whatever WishPassing Cleric that fits your team well. In the end, Mega-Swampert is not only competing against its normal form for defensive efficiency, but also against other Mega-Evolutions for teamslot efficiency.
One thing I have heard some OU players throw around is that if you add something like Latios to your team at the very late phase of team building (like 5th or 6th Pokemon) and you have no Mega-Evolutions on your team, then slapping a Mega Stone onto Latios wouldn't matter as much. The same can be said for Swampert: If you're throwing Swampert on your team as a 5th or 6th Pokemon and you have no Mega-Evolutions in the first to fourth slots, then slapping a Mega Stone onto Swampert isn't that big of a deal. However, in general, I think that Mega-Swampert as a defensive alternative to Swampert for a team is arguably inefficient and doesn't optimize a team's potential.
In my honest opinion, I'd rank Mega-Pert B+, though A- is fine because its Rain Dance set is a monster (though it should be noted that Rain Offense in of itself is a very niche playstyle). There is no definitive grounds that both should have the same rankings or that the Mega should be higher ranked than its normal form.
Rather than comparing offensive output, Mega-Swampert vs. Swampert is a comparison of defensive potential. The argument on this front is more straightforward simply because there are no items that boost defenses in the same way offense has Life Orb/Choice Items/etc., and we can clearly see that Mega Swampert is bulker than Swampert. However, one of the main points of argument here is the importance of Leftovers. Here's an example calc of both Swamperts (running the exact same EV spread) tanking potential versus a AssVest Machamp's DynamicPunch:
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 139-165 (34.6 - 41.1%)
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mega Swampert: 121-144 (30.1 - 35.9%)
So after stomaching one DynamicPunch from Machamp, we can clearly see that Mega Swampert takes much less damage across the board as well as has a more compact damage percentage range than normal Swampert. Factoring in Leftovers, Swampert loses a net health percentage of (28.4 - 34.9%), which is on average 1.35% damage less than what Mega Swampert takes. However, it is of note that Swampert has a higher percentage of being 3HKO'd by Machamp than what Mega Swampert has (due to the nature of Leftovers).
Now that we have established damage calculations, we can safely generalize that Swampert takes hits slightly better than Mega Swampert. Defensively, Swampert doesn't gain any significant defensive benefits through Mega-Evolution. Thus, we bring up the argument of opportunity cost, or whatever the fuck people use to define it. We have to start asking ourselves why we want to use Mega-Swampert. Why burn a Mega-slot for a Swampert that takes roughly the same amount of damage its standard form that hits slightly harder? It's not like Swampert received a significant boost in defenses or gained a really good defensive ability that makes its Mega-forme's defensive potential worth investing in. It's somewhat analogous to arguing the team-slot efficiency of a Blissey vs. Aromatisse vs. Florges vs. whatever. You want to maximize the efficiency of your team, so you would pick whatever WishPassing Cleric that fits your team well. In the end, Mega-Swampert is not only competing against its normal form for defensive efficiency, but also against other Mega-Evolutions for teamslot efficiency.
One thing I have heard some OU players throw around is that if you add something like Latios to your team at the very late phase of team building (like 5th or 6th Pokemon) and you have no Mega-Evolutions on your team, then slapping a Mega Stone onto Latios wouldn't matter as much. The same can be said for Swampert: If you're throwing Swampert on your team as a 5th or 6th Pokemon and you have no Mega-Evolutions in the first to fourth slots, then slapping a Mega Stone onto Swampert isn't that big of a deal. However, in general, I think that Mega-Swampert as a defensive alternative to Swampert for a team is arguably inefficient and doesn't optimize a team's potential.
In my honest opinion, I'd rank Mega-Pert B+, though A- is fine because its Rain Dance set is a monster (though it should be noted that Rain Offense in of itself is a very niche playstyle). There is no definitive grounds that both should have the same rankings or that the Mega should be higher ranked than its normal form.
Quoting this From what i see in YOUR calcs:
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 139-165 (34.6 - 41.1%)
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Mega Swampert: 121-144 (30.1 - 35.9%)
Factoring leftovers you said: ¨Swampert has a higher percentage of being 3HKO'd by Machamp than what Mega Swampert has (due to the nature of Leftovers).¨
but then you say
¨ Now that we have established damage calculations, we can safely generalize that Swampert takes hits slightly better than Mega Swampert.¨
Mega Swampert takes hits better, and has less risk of being 3hkoed like you said, i think you got that point wrong.
Regular form has a higher percentage of being 3HKO'd if it decides to stay in on Machamp and Machamp continues to Dynamic Punch. Due to the nature of leftovers, third and final hit won't have lefties healing it. That's where the percentage of 3HKO'd comes in. Besides, the assumption is that in practice, Swampert only needs to stomach one hit per switch-in. Besides, I used the term "generalized" over "concluded" to account for numerical variability, such as the higher 3HKO percentage situation I stated earlier, Knock Off damage, etc.
Ignoring all this, I just wanted to say that Feraligatr isn't on the viability rankings and is actually a pretty underrated threat right now that deserves B- or B. One set I've been using is SD/Aqua Tail/Frustration/Aqua Jet with Splash Plate and it does decently against offense cause it's bulky enough to live hits and get off an SD against things like Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl. From there, boosted Aqua Jet does very impressive damage, especially when you get into Torrent range. Having a setup sweeper that ScarfRachi doesn't auto-check is pretty damn cool. Another set I've tried out is Sub/SD/Waterfall/Frustration which sets up all over the bulky waters that normally switch into Gatr. This set isn't meant to sweep really, but just break through walls to make it easier for your other teammates to clean up. Yeah, both great sets that should let Gatr hit B easily.
Normally I write one sentence responses to noms because elaborating shit is unnecessary most of the time and it's my nature to keep things short, but here we go.
I'm going to jump in the Swamp argument and say that Pif's point about Mega Swampert is valid, since I've watched a couple of his battles (i cried a little tbf). I'm not going to directly state that its mega is better than its regular form, but I understand that both have their own advantages which i don't need to say here.
In addition, with a 'mon like mega swampert or flogres or whatever fits this category, you can't just say "this 'mon needs this exact blablabla support" or "this 'mon can only do this role" without taking into account extraneous factors that can potentially become huge niches for that 'mon. Examples being Sage of the Six's Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl, which became another trapping threat, and Lochie's SubCM Chandelure, which completely uses stuff like Blissey and Fairies as setup fodder.
/end drivel/
That being said, I'm moving Swampert down to A rank since Serperior is gonna be a massive bitch here.
Per dodmen's request, I will add Feraligatr to B- for now, since once again serperior's gonna become a massive bitch here.
Speaking of which, i'm adding Serperior to A rank for now. Contrary Leaf Storm is looking to be a massive bitch here, especially to the water types out there.
Hydra is staying in A+ rank.
Flygon is staying in C rank.
I'd like to see more input on A- for Chester and the placement of Emboar since it now has reckless to boost its suicide moves (fb+head smash). I'd also like input on which things will potentially become less/more viable due to Contrary Serperior's presence in this tier, since it's probably going to be a massive bitch here.
You guys probably get my point by now
I'm going to jump in the Swamp argument and say that Pif's point about Mega Swampert is valid, since I've watched a couple of his battles (i cried a little tbf). I'm not going to directly state that its mega is better than its regular form, but I understand that both have their own advantages which i don't need to say here.
In addition, with a 'mon like mega swampert or flogres or whatever fits this category, you can't just say "this 'mon needs this exact blablabla support" or "this 'mon can only do this role" without taking into account extraneous factors that can potentially become huge niches for that 'mon. Examples being Sage of the Six's Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl, which became another trapping threat, and Lochie's SubCM Chandelure, which completely uses stuff like Blissey and Fairies as setup fodder.
/end drivel/
That being said, I'm moving Swampert down to A rank since Serperior is gonna be a massive bitch here.
Per dodmen's request, I will add Feraligatr to B- for now, since once again serperior's gonna become a massive bitch here.
Speaking of which, i'm adding Serperior to A rank for now. Contrary Leaf Storm is looking to be a massive bitch here, especially to the water types out there.
Hydra is staying in A+ rank.
Flygon is staying in C rank.
I'd like to see more input on A- for Chester and the placement of Emboar since it now has reckless to boost its suicide moves (fb+head smash). I'd also like input on which things will potentially become less/more viable due to Contrary Serperior's presence in this tier, since it's probably going to be a massive bitch here.
You guys probably get my point by now
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Emboar actually isn't released until next week, but I don't know if that affects discussion of its placement yet.
I'm beginning to believe that Serperior is gonna be a massive bitch here.
In regards to Emboar I'm thinking around B or B+.
I was initially thinking lower, but if dingbat is indeed correct about the massive bitchiness of serperior then it may fit into B+ quite nicely. Depending on how impactful serperior is, a drop in bulky waters will leave emboar to destroy most of the meta game with flare blitz, and it will be very hard to switch into. Not to mention this thing will eat serperior. If you band this thing it can 2hko suicune with wild charge so suicune has to think twice about coming in directly onto this guy.
Obviously the thing holding this guy back from A- is its low speed and defenses, as well as the recoil making it extremely easy to revenge kill with common threats such is crobat, mega dactyl and pretty much anything faster with a powerful earthquake. Hell even suicune can out speed and 2hko this thing with scald.
Still, the ability to either go crazy scary wall breaker, strong mixed attacker, or even a more defensive set with its nice hp stat should be enough to plant it in B even through its very notable flaws. This thing has a very big move pool.
In regards to Emboar I'm thinking around B or B+.
I was initially thinking lower, but if dingbat is indeed correct about the massive bitchiness of serperior then it may fit into B+ quite nicely. Depending on how impactful serperior is, a drop in bulky waters will leave emboar to destroy most of the meta game with flare blitz, and it will be very hard to switch into. Not to mention this thing will eat serperior. If you band this thing it can 2hko suicune with wild charge so suicune has to think twice about coming in directly onto this guy.
Obviously the thing holding this guy back from A- is its low speed and defenses, as well as the recoil making it extremely easy to revenge kill with common threats such is crobat, mega dactyl and pretty much anything faster with a powerful earthquake. Hell even suicune can out speed and 2hko this thing with scald.
Still, the ability to either go crazy scary wall breaker, strong mixed attacker, or even a more defensive set with its nice hp stat should be enough to plant it in B even through its very notable flaws. This thing has a very big move pool.
i disagree with emboar going to b or b+. the fact of the matter is that emboar is outclassed by every premier fighter in tier and has nothing that truly sets it apart from other fightings, its power buff hasnt changed that. It not strong enough to make up for that fact it has sub par bulk and is way too fucking slow to actually be good in this meta.
It's better to wait for Reckless Emboar to be released and see how it performs. Based upon its performance with its Hidden Ability, its rank could be altered, but we'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out for real. I do think the massive power output will give sumo swine a niche over its fellow Fire-types, however.
What Emboar has to set it apart from other Fighting types is Reckless and good moves to abuse it. Emboar has a pretty nice STAB in Reckless Flare Blitz, which outdamages most megas strongest STABs(See Mega Beedrill and Aerodactyl) I see a scarf set on Emboar being very good, as it hits for lots of damage with its great dual STAB and coverage boosted by Reckless, as well as its speed with Scarf that can outspeed a ton of things.
Emboar's bulk is pretty low, but it can still solidly check a lot of top threats, like Hydregion, M-Pidgeot, Serperior, Lucario, LO Mienshao, most variants of Jirachi, Yanmega, you probably get it by now.
But, we can only truly see how it plays down when we get access to it, so I'll hold off on anymore discussion, though I think Emboar will have a rightful place in B or B+.
I have to admit, I'm fairly skeptical of emboar in the upper parts of B-rank myself.
The biggest problem is emboar being badly reliant on some sort of item/field condition patching up its speed in combination with its low bulk. To patch it up, you pretty much need one of the following
-Choice scarf: While it patches up a few problems, it really hinders emboar's ability to make use of its great movepool, and makes it far too reliant on prediction until late game.
-Tailwind: A decent option, but the duration leaves a lot to be desired. Also fails to outspeed scarf mienshao or any scarfer faster than that, though that isn't too bad for something sitting at base 65 speed.
-Trick room: Probably the best option of the 3, as it allows emboar to increase it's bulk or go mixed. With a speed reducing nature and 0 speed IV's, you outspeed 0 spe dragalgae under TR conditions, which is pretty good to ensure you don't have the tables turned on you under trick room.
The second issue is the ability to swap in safely. This makes emboar more reliant on volt-turn-pass support or double switching, especially in tandem with its speed issues. Much as battlers strive to make use of those tactics, its still significant support required for it to function. It doesn't help that despite it's resistances, its attacks are carving chunks out of its HP to lower its overall bulk further.
I'd say B- is a better starting point for it. It hits like a truck, but there are a number of pokes forcing it to predict around them, its prone to being revenged or checked and forced out, and requires significant support to get in safely to attempt its wall-breaking.
The biggest problem is emboar being badly reliant on some sort of item/field condition patching up its speed in combination with its low bulk. To patch it up, you pretty much need one of the following
-Choice scarf: While it patches up a few problems, it really hinders emboar's ability to make use of its great movepool, and makes it far too reliant on prediction until late game.
-Tailwind: A decent option, but the duration leaves a lot to be desired. Also fails to outspeed scarf mienshao or any scarfer faster than that, though that isn't too bad for something sitting at base 65 speed.
-Trick room: Probably the best option of the 3, as it allows emboar to increase it's bulk or go mixed. With a speed reducing nature and 0 speed IV's, you outspeed 0 spe dragalgae under TR conditions, which is pretty good to ensure you don't have the tables turned on you under trick room.
The second issue is the ability to swap in safely. This makes emboar more reliant on volt-turn-pass support or double switching, especially in tandem with its speed issues. Much as battlers strive to make use of those tactics, its still significant support required for it to function. It doesn't help that despite it's resistances, its attacks are carving chunks out of its HP to lower its overall bulk further.
I'd say B- is a better starting point for it. It hits like a truck, but there are a number of pokes forcing it to predict around them, its prone to being revenged or checked and forced out, and requires significant support to get in safely to attempt its wall-breaking.
Well is regular swamper dies statisticallt faster than MEga Swampert then
We can safely generalize that MEGA Swampert takes hits slightly better than
If you're stupid enough to let either of them continuously take Dynamicpunches from Machamp.
Im not stupid like you to assume thats the onyl situation to stay vs Machamp. Anyways your argument is wrong.
Vape back down to A-.
Now that Zygarde and Megazam are gone, balance has refocused itself as the primary teambuilding method. I used to think that Vaporeon could shine on any team, but its unreliable defensive stat causes problems for it's special defence, usually resulting in some sort of set compromise.
This weakness, in my opinion, is fully exploitable, and prevents Vaporeon from being a true A rank threat.
p.s. dingbat, dodmen is right, we definitely need Gatr to be at LEAST C rank if not B-
Now that Zygarde and Megazam are gone, balance has refocused itself as the primary teambuilding method. I used to think that Vaporeon could shine on any team, but its unreliable defensive stat causes problems for it's special defence, usually resulting in some sort of set compromise.
This weakness, in my opinion, is fully exploitable, and prevents Vaporeon from being a true A rank threat.
p.s. dingbat, dodmen is right, we definitely need Gatr to be at LEAST C rank if not B-
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