Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Kurona]

so, uh, forgive my lack of knowledge as i have been gone for quite some time, but why is flygon ranked?

Defogger with a resistance to all hazards and the ability to beat a lot of hazard setters like Ferro with Fire Blast. Tokyo Tom has the full reasoning on it; find his post

Edit: Here's the post

 

[hobreezy]

Could we possibly blacklist Flygon? Tokyo Tom made a great post about it and unless there's a large shift in the metagame I don't think we should have to re-reason its rank. A few people have asked about it and I think blacklisting could make the thread a little bit tidier.

 

[Kurona]

Could we possibly blacklist Flygon? Tokyo Tom made a great post about it and unless there's a large shift in the metagame I don't think we should have to re-reason its rank. A few people have asked about it and I think blacklisting could make the thread a little bit tidier.

I'd rather suggest Conclusion Reached; seeing as it is ranked and TRC himself said it's not going anywhere from D any time soon.

 

[trc]

Good point; Flygon is now conclusion reached. No more discussion on it please :D

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright, I'm seeing a huge problem that has been going on the past couple days. It involves Serperior. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome Pokemon with an awesome ability, but it is not any more than B- material (even that is pushing it). Honestly, I think C+ is where it should be, it has quite a few notable flaws that really can hold it back. It also isn't as hard hitting as everyone loves to make it seem. Yes, at +6 it hits hard (what doesn't?), but honestly, there aren't many times in which your opponent will actually allow you to get to +6, unless it's late game. In which case, Serp needs quite a bit of support removing faster 'mons among other things. Seriously, you cannot look at Serperior and tell me it is on the same level as Gothitelle, Scizor, Mega Swampert, Torn-T, Victini and Weavile. . .

In other words, keep Serp in C+.

 

[Kurona]

TRC , looking at the D-ranks should we also conclusion reach'd Gorebyss and Cloyster? Their niches are obvious, they have nothing new and the metagame hasn't changed at all for them, and I can't see them moving anywhere anytime soon. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here just because we just conclusion reach'd something but that's my gut feeling.
I also kind of sort of feel the same about Venomoth and Salamence a little but I dunno they're a bit more tricky; I think more discussion should be had on them

 

[AM]

TRC , looking at the D-ranks should we also conclusion reach'd Gorebyss and Cloyster? Their niches are obvious, they have nothing new and the metagame hasn't changed at all for them, and I can't see them moving anywhere anytime soon. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here just because we just conclusion reach'd something but that's my gut feeling.
I also kind of sort of feel the same about Venomoth and Salamence a little but I dunno they're a bit more tricky; I think more discussion should be had on them

I think discussion should be left open for them as long as it's productive. Realistically that logic can be said for a lot of things even higher such as those in the C ranks. It would make more sense if the discussion turned terrible but it's fine for now to me at least.

 

[Pooch13]

I feel like the chandelure drop was a bit harsh but WE, btw shouldn't cloyster be removed? Tbh why would you use it over other setup sweepers.

 

[Tarontos]

You use cloyster for one reason and one reason only-Shell Smash and sub/sash breaking.
and at plus two it has 480ish speed so preaty fast
and 630ish power backed by 125 bp stab ice and 125 rock move
not to mention it can go mixed because it boosts special as well

 

[firehusky]

Cloyster gets a really OP boosting move in shell smash which doubles it's attack and speed in the same turn. For other set up sweepers like zard x, it would take them 2 turns. Cloyster can also beat most sash and sub users, and it has lots of moves to use to abuse it's ability skill link.
edit: banninja'd (courtesy of celtricpride, ofc)

 

[Pooch13]

You use cloyster for one reason and one reason only-Shell Smash and sub/sash breaking.
and at plus two it has 480ish speed so preaty fast
and 630ish power backed by 125 bp stab ice and 125 rock move
not to mention it can go mixed because it boosts special as well

Yes i mean i know what it does and the shell smash shananigans but depending on the item it uses its left pretty exposed to different threats. Sash to priority and herb to special attacks. I guess i see the point of its niche but the support it needs is too much to make it viable, also unaware clefable doesnt care about the boosts and lopunny breaks the sash so it cant even setup on some currently popular mons.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Cloyster gets a really OP boosting move in shell smash which doubles it's attack and speed in the same turn. For other set up sweepers like zard x, it would take them 2 turns. Cloyster can also beat most sash and sub users, and it has lots of moves to use to abuse it's ability skill link.

I think everyone here knows how Shell Smash functions.

How many opportunities it gets to boost, how good it is at sweeping after a boost/how hard it is to stop, and how much support it requires are more important; I've not used Cloyster, but I don't hear good things about it.

 

[Tarontos]

which is why it is D rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

 

[Mur]

Gonna jump on the Clefable to S boat. While tbh i see it going either way I feel it sways more toward the S ranks than A+. Clef brings a lot to the table being a great offensive threat with it's CM sets as it just boosts up and steamrolls teams while providing momentum through the switches it forces and also proves itself as a defensive threat by abusing is good typing and abilities to sponge attacks, act as a pivot for its team, and stop setup sweepers with unaware. The support clef provides is pretty damn good also imo as twave is pretty spammable and wish sets also act as great pivots providing safer switches to the rest of the team. Clefable serves a very important job in the meta at the moment as its quite easily one of the staples for balance right now. It gives balance teams a win con, pivot, and a good check/counter to a plethora of mons giving its team more room to work around other threats. Its impossible to say that clef is not consistently pulling its weight every game because of how many different roles it provides for the teams its on right now. While CM+MG is probably the best set since nothing really can rival it too much, its other sets are also very consistent at their roles like the SR+unaware set for example. The versatility clef has also seems to be overlooked imo. Just the standard set can be tailored to what you need such as dropping flamethrower for twave or focus blast(which imo may be better than flamethrower as it allows you to beat tran while still hitting ferro while only missing out on zor and meta which never risk switching into you anyway but this conversation belongs elsewhere). Another important factor to consider is that since its a staple on balance at this point its usually always going to be considered at some point during teambuilding because it just provides so much for balance to not use it and its just so damn easy to use. The fact that clef can still pull this off with Mega Metagross and Mzor/reg zor(which are probably clefs strongest two checks atm) becoming huge threats in this meta just proves how much of an asset clefable really is. What I've been noticing among the S ranks is that they usually can find ways around their counters and checks such as Mgross running grass knot for the bros and smack down sd lando for rotom (I know that other mons outside of S can do this as well but I'm trying to say that usually all the S ranks possess this ability) So to me clef being able to find ways around some of its checks and counters while providing a defensive backbone for its team shows me that it is worthy of S rank. So because of clef being a staple for an entire playstyle, versatility, having the ability to work around its checks/counters, and being an offensive and defensive threat I say move Clefable to S rank.

I also support Tornadus-T moving up but thats pretty much been decided to be a probable move already.

 

[Reverb]

Gonna jump on the Clefable to S boat. While tbh i see it going either way I feel it sways more toward the S ranks than A+. Clef brings a lot to the table being a great offensive threat with it's CM sets as it just boosts up and steamrolls teams while providing momentum through the switches it forces and also proves itself as a defensive threat by abusing is good typing and abilities to sponge attacks, act as a pivot for its team, and stop setup sweepers with unaware. The support clef provides is pretty damn good also imo as twave is pretty spammable and wish sets also act as great pivots providing safer switches to the rest of the team. Clefable serves a very important job in the meta at the moment as its quite easily one of the staples for balance right now. It gives balance teams a win con, pivot, and a good check/counter to a plethora of mons giving its team more room to work around other threats. Its impossible to say that clef is not consistently pulling its weight every game because of how many different roles it provides for the teams its on right now. While CM+MG is probably the best set since nothing really can rival it too much, its other sets are also very consistent at their roles like the SR+unaware set for example. The versatility clef has also seems to be overlooked imo. Just the standard set can be tailored to what you need such as dropping flamethrower for twave or focus blast(which imo may be better than flamethrower as it allows you to beat tran while still hitting ferro while only missing out on zor and meta which never risk switching into you anyway but this conversation belongs elsewhere). Another important factor to consider is that since its a staple on balance at this point its usually always going to be considered at some point during teambuilding because it just provides so much for balance to not use it and its just so damn easy to use. The fact that clef can still pull this off with Mega Metagross and Mzor/reg zor(which are probably clefs strongest two checks atm) becoming huge threats in this meta just proves how much of an asset clefable really is. What I've been noticing among the S ranks is that they usually can find ways around their counters and checks such as Mgross running grass knot for the bros and smack down sd lando for rotom (I know that other mons outside of S can do this as well but I'm trying to say that usually all the S ranks possess this ability) So to me clef being able to find ways around some of its checks and counters while providing a defensive backbone for its team shows me that it is worthy of S rank. So because of clef being a staple for an entire playstyle, versatility, having the ability to work around its checks/counters, and being an offensive and defensive threat I say move Clefable to S rank.

I also support Tornadus-T moving up but thats pretty much been decided to be a probable move already.

I think Clefable is good as is. I'm not going to restate all its positive traits, because I think you said so nicely. After all, Clefable is an excellent Pokemon. That being said, it does not apply the same sort of pressure as S-rank Pokemon. Whereas Mega-Metagross can conceivably sweep an entire team with minimal effort, and Mega-Sableye shuts down SR and cannot be phased, Clefable does neither. Its base 95 Sp Atk is merely decent. Moreover, its stats are objectively mediocre. It boasts 90/73/90 defenses. These are not terrible, but they are hardly insurmountable. And keep in mind, Clefable, while trying to set up, is highly susceptible to Taunt and Roar. That fact the very common Heatran absolutely walls its most viable set is a major thorn in its side. (While I am aware that Clefable beats Heatran without Roar/Taunt, most sets will run one of those moves.) In the end, Clefable is rather easy to prepare against, and any competent player will have a consistent way to counter/check it. I realize that Clefable's true potential lies in the late game, when said check/counter is handled, but S-ranks like Lopunny-M, Sableye-M, and Metagross-M don't need to wait until the end of the battle to be a threat. They're a terror to face whether its turn 1 or turn 100. Keep Clefable at A+.

 

[Temporelucis]

Serperior ---> B-

I think we all can agree Serperior has a fantastic ability and speed tier (as far as non-greninja 'mons go) which makes it difficult to revenge kill without a scarf user or priority once it's set up.
STAB Leaf Storm + Contrary is a great tool to have under your arsenal but it doesn't go any further... it has Dragon Pulse for dragons, HP Fire/Ground for steel types and even more STAB on Giga Drain/Energt Ball. Serperior's lack of Sp.Atk. doesn't help either because you have to carry a Life Orb in order to score some of the most crucial OHKO's this 'mon is able to offer (Latios/Ferro/etc) but even with those downsides it has a strong offensive presence just because you're able to set up +2 while attacking with a base 130 STAB move at the same time, similar to Mega Kangaskhan (Just on the fact that you can set up while attacking, don't want to bring up pointless discussions about Mega Kanga, we all know it's broken).
With that said Serperior doesn't really need other moves since most of time you'll find yourself spamming Leaf Storm and getting free boosts on everything that doesn't resist grass, and the stuff that does resist grass is more than likely weak to Dragon Pulse or HP Fire (except Heatran/M-Alraria).
This pokemon sets up all over bulky waters like Rotom-W, Alomolololol, Suicune and Slowbro as well as ground/rock types like Hippowdown and Mega Diancie.
It does have flaws but it should be at least the same level as pokemon like Lucario and Zapdos for the fact that with right support it can blast through teams without any mercy.

Relevant calcs:

Hide

Color code

• Things you can OHKO without any boosts
• Things you can OHKO at +2
• OHKO depends on a roll
• Things you can't OHKO
• Heatran

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 461-543 (120.6 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 438-516 (122.6 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 309-364 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 72 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 265-315 (83 - 98.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-B: 364-429 (93 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 416-494 (128.7 - 152.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 281-330 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 341-402 (122.6 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 383-452 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Slowbro: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Slowbro: 307-367 (77.9 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 257-304 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 510-603 (149.5 - 176.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 352-415 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 354-421 (146.8 - 174.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 229-270 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 265-312 (75.4 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Steels
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 359-426 (101.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 432-510 (125.9 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 260-307 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 260-307 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. Flash Fire Heatran: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

TL;DR Can Leaf Storm things into oblivion.

 

[Metalhand]

while Clefable is one of my favorite pokemons to use, I don't think S rank is the right place for her.
I think her biggest problem are those defensive stats, 90/73 defense is no something to go and tell, even when fully invested. And until she start to set up its very easy for special attacker to deal with her.

While no doubt that it is amazing mon that in the hand of the right player is deadly, but still no S rank mon that can his job flawlessly.

clefable need to stay A+ rank

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Azelf should rise to B+ rank. The reason for this promotion is that Azelf has proved itself to be one of the best suicide leads in the current metagame, thanks to a few very useful attributes. With a base speed stat of 115, it outspeeds all other common hazard leads, and thus can prevent them from getting Stealth Rock up with a fast Taunt. Secondly, with access to Explosion, it can act as an automatic Rapid Spin/Defog blocker as well as provide an opportunity to get a teammate in safely. Thirdly, because it can utilise the move Skill Swap, it is one of the few hazard leads that isn't totally cockblocked by Mega Sableye, virtually guaranteeing it that it can set up Stealth Rock at the beginning of the match. Only a handful of Pokémon have access to this combination, and out of all of them, Azelf is by far the best for this role. While Azelf is basically limited to setting up Stealth Rock in ORAS OU, and in general the metagame is slowing down and gaining bulk, it is still one of the best leads for HO teams, which are still very viable in today's metagame.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Huntail for D/C- rank, Gorebyss for Unranked.

With ORAS, Huntail can now use Sucker Punch + Baton Pass/Shell Smash/Waterfall, making it much harder to kill/prevent him passing than its counterpart Gorebyss.
Like Gorebyss, Huntail has a decent bulk & attack ( instead of spa for Gorebyss ) , but a mediocre speed that lets it opened for revenge kills at +2.
With the introduction of Sucker Punch in its movepool, a majority of scarfs won't be able to revenge kill Huntail, especially if they are weakened.
SmashPass isn't that effective in OU, but gets few effective receivers, such as Mega Metagross.

Overall, Huntail just got better than Gorebyss, that's why Gorebyss should go unranked.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

A- ---> A/A+

Mega Aerodactyl is great in the meta. Not only does it outspeed almost anything, and even some scarfers! It outspeeds base 292 scarfs, which is basically nothing, but it's under 185 and over 181 something or whatever. Why Aerodactyl deserves to be higher ranked is because of it's ability to kill A LOT of the new megas!

 

[firehusky]

I agree with moving Aerodactyl up to A, but A+ is way too much. Aerodactyl beats lots of new megas like gallade, sceptile, beedrill, and lopunny, but it lost it's stallbreaker set because of mega sableye. As I said, A+ is a too much, I'll just never imagine Aerodactyl along with metagame defining pokemon like Keldeo, Clefable, Lati twins, Thund, and Talonflame.

 

[Salemance]

Mega Aerodactyl is fine where it is. Just because it's super fast doesn't mean it's great. You say it handles the new Megas, but it really doesn't. A+ and even A is overshooting it.

Calcs

212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 462-546 (153.4 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 111-132 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sab can just Burn afterwards

212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 121-144 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I guess it beats M-Lop

Mega Aerodactyl is surprisingly weak after playing with it for a while. It's really fine where it is.
The biggest problem is that it uses your Mega slot. I don't see any real reason to use it over M-Lopunny, M-Manectric or Mega Sceptile, all Pokemon so are just as fast, or faster, that have way more to offer.

Dont understand how Aero handles Meta or how it got in there when its used to check Lop, Gallade, Ecept ad the like. And not faster? Most if not all Aero run Jolly natures in order to run enough speed to outpace Max speed Bee and Scept (closest next benchmark) and is capable of handling enough of the faster megas and yet while still being that birdspam check when needed.

Sure its not handling some like the defensive stall behomths but it handles quite a few of the offensive minded ones handidly.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Fair enough. It's good speed control regardless, and it's got decent bulk. It takes like 50-60% from Mega Metagross BP, which is really good. It can revenge kill M-Lopunny, M-Beedril, M-Sceptile, Mega Charizard X & Y, M-Manetric, M-Pidgeot, M-Pinsir, M-Gallade, M-Houndoom and a plethora of other mons.
edir: bird check

 

[Kurona]

Mega Aero is one of those 'mon I don't see as getting any worse or any better in terms of it's viablity rank. It has it's defined uses, niches and qualities, it's rather antimeta, and I don't see it as on par with the 'mon in B+ or the 'mon in A. A- seems perfect to me.

 

[AM]

I mean M-Aerodactyl is up in A- for all those reasons stated above. There's nothing else that is very noticeable that would push it to the level of Manaphy or Ferrothorn when you consider the negatives that it has such as poor offensive STAB moves and relying on coverage to do the majority of its damage against the tier at times. Taking 50-60% from a Bullet Punch from M-Metagross isn't exactly an accomplishment that isn't in favor of M-Aerodactyl at all. It's fine in A-.