ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

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Contrary Serperior has been already released, and it's breaking PU and NU right now. People are talking about he will be UU because its movepool is not enough good for OU, and i'd like to know whatdo you think.

I won't rank it because I'm quite nooby but i like to read you guys. I hope someday i'll be able to discuss about the meta :D
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Im not stupid like you to assume thats the onyl situation to stay vs Machamp. Anyways your argument is wrong.
Both forms of Swampert cause switches when coming in on threats. These turns of leftovers are crucial in mitigating passive damage from hazards and status, giving the normal form of Swampert a competitive edge in these situations. That said, the defensive boost from Mega-evolving is no joke either. This in combination with its boosted offensive stats cements Mega Swampert as a solid A rank for me. Its inability to fit on any team that also wants to include a different mega evolution hinders its usefulness in some scenarios but as a pokemon itself, it is certainly a solid choice.
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Contrary Serperior has been already released, and it's breaking PU and NU right now. People are talking about he will be UU because its movepool is not enough good for OU, and i'd like to know whatdo you think.

I won't rank it because I'm quite nooby but i like to read you guys. I hope someday i'll be able to discuss about the meta :D
Serperior is an interesting pokémon in this metagame. It has a great speed tier (113) and has just enough to get by against a lot of teams. It certainly has its shortcomings though. Serperior is stopped by numerous threats in the current metagame. The most notable of these include things like Pidgeot, Jirachi, and most of all Crobat. Despite this, Serperior is able to work its way around common checks through the use of team support. Pokemon like Mega Ampharos can partner well as a solid Crobat stop and also something that baits in Ground-types for Serperior to abuse. Not sure exactly how good it will be but I think it does have potential.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Gonna make a quick post here regarding one 'mon.

On the subject of Serperior, I will temporarily remove it from the VR. I realized that I jumped the gun on ranking it, which is something I should absolutely not be doing as the head of this thread. It was 12 am last night, I was loopy, and shit happens sometimes. Maybe I just have high expectations for it,

On that regard, feel free to discuss on where Serperior really should belong. If you guys think I'm still accurate on my call, w/e, but I'm gonna slow down a bit and allow for you guys to make judgments here.

P.s. it's 12 am right now, but at least my mind is more clear
 
Gonna make a quick post here regarding one 'mon.

On the subject of Serperior, I will temporarily remove it from the VR. I realized that I jumped the gun on ranking it, which is something I should absolutely not be doing as the head of this thread. It was 12 am last night, I was loopy, and shit happens sometimes. Maybe I just have high expectations for it,

On that regard, feel free to discuss on where Serperior really should belong. If you guys think I'm still accurate on my call, w/e, but I'm gonna slow down a bit and allow for you guys to make judgments here.

P.s. it's 12 am right now, but at least my mind is more clear
Serperior to B-. tbh, not much benefits. The only thing I've been successfully do is use Contrary Serp to bluff and Glare and/or Toxic switchins like Crobat, florges, and ScarfRachi. It really should be used as a pivot and not as your sweeper in UU.

EDIT: I just saw pif use Contrary serp and i completely forgot that Contrary Serperior fucks with Sticky Web teams really hard. Take note of that.

2ND EDIT: Also, I was just musing about this, but theoretically Serperior can capitalize on contrary by switching into defogs. ik that a good majority of the tier's defoggers carry SE moves against it, but against shit like Defog Empoleon, Defog Gligar, and Defog Shiftry (lol), it can easily gain a free evasion boost for free.
 

Lord Wallace

Hentai Connoiseur
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Serperior is a solid B to me.

It has a lot of really solid individual points such as being a fast and bulky Grass type in the tier that isn't Celebi and of course Contrary Leaf Storm. However it needs some support in order to clean up BO and Balance teams late game. B seems pretty solid for it
 
If Serperior's offensive movepool wasn't such garbage, he would be significantly more threatening as a sweeper. That said, the only guaranteed move it will run is Leaf Storm, and its support movepool is fantastic, as others have pointed out. Sub-Torment is a lot of fun, and Dragon Pulse and/or Hidden Power Fire are typically fine for coverage. Crobat still takes a mighty dump on it, but Glare is easily the most common filler on Serperior, leaving very little that wants to actually switch in and deal with it. I think B/B+ is pretty good for it, but it won't be A until Crobat/Jirachi usage drops a bit.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm going to place Serperior in B rank. Its offensive movepool being pretty barren hurts it quite a bit, it has really shitty Special Attack before the +2 boost, and there are some really common things in this tier like Crobat, Mega Beedrill, or Scarf Jirachi that can easily deter the setup or stop its "snowball" sweep short. What saves it from being any lower though is its support movepool, especially Glare (which can lure its checks and counters/spread paralysis), and considering any non-LO variant most likely won't be running 4 attack moves, it definitely has the space to utilize some of those moves.
 
I think B might be underselling Serperior a bit. It really isn't that weak. Leaf Storm 2HKO's standard defensive Florges factoring in the boost after the first hit. This is something Mega Sceptile could never hope to do. And Moonblast has a hilarious 30% chance to raise your special attack even higher.

I even beat Crobat 1 on 1 trying to sack it and instead getting an evasion boost from Defog...
 
Serperior is definitely not good enough to go above where it is ranked now. While it is good, it has zero set versatility meaning that you know exactly what its going to do whether its leaf storm or sub/ glare. One dimensional mons like that aren't worthy of B+ or A. The Serp hype is so real lol
 
Serperior is definitely not good enough to go above where it is ranked now. While it is good, it has zero set versatility meaning that you know exactly what its going to do whether its leaf storm or sub/ glare. One dimensional mons like that aren't worthy of B+ or A. The Serp hype is so real lol
Is Suicune not one dimensional? Sure, there are a few variations here and there, but all it really does is Calm Mind (btw, CroCune is dead weight against any team carrying Serperior. Another argument for its viability). Then there are mons like Mega Beedrill in the A ranks that are as one dimensional as they come.

Serperior is an amazing wallbreaker. Especially in this tier which is so heavily reliant on bulky waters.
 
Is Suicune not one dimensional? Sure, there are a few variations here and there, but all it really does is Calm Mind (btw, CroCune is dead weight against any team carrying Serperior. Another argument for its viability). Then there are mons like Mega Beedrill in the A ranks that are as one dimensional as they come.

Serperior is an amazing wallbreaker. Especially in this tier which is so heavily reliant on bulky waters.
Serperios is just not good in this tier. We have so much shit that can Revenge-kill it and pressure it. Glare is nice, but considering how it's grown to become almost a near-standard on a Serperior set, people will prepare for it.

tl;dr stop overselling this
 
Serperios is just not good in this tier. We have so much shit that can Revenge-kill it and pressure it. Glare is nice, but considering how it's grown to become almost a near-standard on a Serperior set, people will prepare for it.

tl;dr stop overselling this
No shit, there are things that beat it. If that weren't the case it would be banned. Silly.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 203-239 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's some scary wallbreaking power is what I'm saying. Only Rotom-H wants to switch i--wait...

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

LOL.
 
No shit, there are things that beat it. If that weren't the case it would be banned. Silly.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 203-239 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's some scary wallbreaking power is what I'm saying. Only Rotom-H wants to switch i--wait...

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

LOL.
Yet Serp still has "eh" bulk and needs to come in on something seriously threatened by Leaf Storm. The fact that you had to give Serp a +2 boost in your biased calc there just proves that Serp really needs to get to +2 to get serious damage in on mons that threaten him. Like seriously what is that situation anyway? Your opponent let you KO something with Leaf Storm, then sent in something that wasn't Rotom-Heat before realizing their error and hard switching in with rocks up?

I love Serp to death in the meta right now, but manipulating calcs to overstate how good he is would more likely lead to him getting placed lower in the viability rankings than he deserves because that kind of thing pisses people off.

My vote is for Serp to sit at a solid B rank, because with all of the bulky water types in the tier Serp can do plenty of damage, and the ability to paralyze his switchins with Glare puts him above B- in my opinion.
 
Yet Serp still has "eh" bulk and needs to come in on something seriously threatened by Leaf Storm. The fact that you had to give Serp a +2 boost in your biased calc there just proves that Serp really needs to get to +2 to get serious damage in on mons that threaten him. Like seriously what is that situation anyway? Your opponent let you KO something with Leaf Storm, then sent in something that wasn't Rotom-Heat before realizing their error and hard switching in with rocks up?

I love Serp to death in the meta right now, but manipulating calcs to overstate how good he is would more likely lead to him getting placed lower in the viability rankings than he deserves because that kind of thing pisses people off.

My vote is for Serp to sit at a solid B rank, because with all of the bulky water types in the tier Serp can do plenty of damage, and the ability to paralyze his switchins with Glare puts him above B- in my opinion.
The point was to demonstrate its wallbreaking potential by showing that it 2HKO's a fully specially defensive wall with a resisted hit, but okay.

Whatever. I'll give ya'll a month or so to catch on as usual.
 
The point was to demonstrate its wallbreaking potential by showing that it 2HKO's a fully specially defensive wall with a resisted hit, but okay.

Whatever. I'll give ya'll a month or so to catch on as usual.
Be sarcastic all you like, but the 2HKO was still manipulated in your calc, you had Serperior at +2 on the first hit. The situation is just ridiculous because there's no way that any decent opponent would be hard switching specially defensive Rotom-Heat in so late, it just confuses me that you'd manipulate the calc like that since I'm pretty sure you have a chance to 2HKO anyway with rocks up. You can't be putting up dishonest calcs and expect to be taken seriously, it makes you a liar and hurts whatever argument you're trying to endorse. Definition of B Rank from the OP:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.
I think that's a very fair description of Serp, he's is a good mon and I'm really liking it right now, but Serp is still one dimensional and relies on forcing switches and snowballing its honestly pretty lame base special attack stat, making it fairly one dimensional even if it does have Glare. For comparison Serp has a lot of competition with the A Ranked Shaymin, another hard hitting grass type that has better bulk, reliable recovery, the ability to absorb status for the team, better coverage, and can hit harder than Serp right off of the bat. Quite simply Shaymin is in A Rank because its not one dimensional like Serp is. Honestly I'd say Serp reminds me a lot of Honchkrow who sits B+, its great in the right conditions because of its ability to snowball its attack, but if the situation isn't right then it isn't getting the job done well enough.
Just putting this here to prove that Shaymin hits harder on turn 1, which is a great way to compare wallbreakers
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Absol: 359-422 (132.4 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Absol: 324-382 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Whatever. I'll give ya'll a month or so to catch on as usual.
When the metagame potentially shifts in Serperior's favor in a month we'll be be sure to call you so you can claim misguided credit.

As of right now, there's a lot to stop Serperior, and offensively his movepool doesn't really have tricks to prevent them from stopping him. If Jirachi ends up leaving this month, that'll certainly be a boon for him but as of right now B is pretty fitting in the current meta.
 
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I haven't actually used Emboar on a team, but I don't think it should be ranked very high. It seems, for a most part, outclassed by other high ranked Pokemon that would be able to do Emboar's job better. For example, Infernape is much faster, has access to multiple boosting moves, and is generally more versatile than Emboar. I could see Machamp being a better CB user because of its ability to absorb status with Guts, and also Knock Off is really good for dealing with things like Gligar. Emboar can't even pull off an effective AV set because its strongest moves all wear down its health or lower its defenses. The best I could see it doing is some sort of Life Orb all-out attacking set, but again, Infernape kind of does this a lot better because of its higher speed and greater versatility. The one thing that Emboar has over these mons is Sucker Punch, but since it's not exactly reliable, it's not even too much of a redeeming factor.

If it were to be ranked, I wouldn't go any higher than C. I see things there that are in situations very similar to Emboar: Exploud is almost entirely outclassed by Porygon-Z (hits almost exactly as hard, faster, Agility and Nasty Plot, Trick) and Mega Audino faces stiff competition from Florges (more versatile with viable CM, immediate recovery in Synthesis, stronger STAB, has Fighting resist, doesn't take up Mega slot). So yeah while Serperior is very very unique and threatening in what it does, Emboar in UU finds itself with heavy competition from things that simply do its job better.

Alright I know this was brought up way earlier but I wanted to see some discussion on Pangoro. Simply put, stall has NOTHING to kill this unless they want to run something like Crobat (and even then, have fun switching in if it's not SD). With SD Lum, Pangoro finds many opportunities to set up against defensive teams. If it runs Iron Head, it OHKOs every Fairy except for Granbull, which can be OHKOd if Pangoro runs Gunk Shot instead. I'm fairly sure that the only other ways that stall can deal with SD Lum Pangoro, besides unorthodox things like Crobat or Whimsicott, is by haxing it with two Scald burns in a row or dodging a Gunk Shot. Its ability to keep itself healthy with Iron Fist-boosted Drain Punch is amazing for it. CB is also very good because it 2HKOs like everything except for physically defensive Gligar. The speed loss from Hammar Arm is an issue though, as it makes it more susceptible to Scald and other attacks. Pangoro's in C right now but I think it should go up to B- at least.

Edit: forgot to say that Pangoro's bad speed and /eh/ bulk makes it not great against offense, which is one of the biggest reasons it's held back from a higher rank.
 
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I haven't actually used Emboar on a team, but I don't think it should be ranked very high. It seems, for a most part, outclassed by other high ranked Pokemon that would be able to do Emboar's job better. For example, Infernape is much faster, has access to multiple boosting moves, and is generally more versatile than Emboar. I could see Machamp being a better CB user because of its ability to absorb status with Guts, and also Knock Off is really good for dealing with things like Gligar. Emboar can't even pull off an effective AV set because its strongest moves all wear down its health or lower its defenses. The best I could see it doing is some sort of Life Orb all-out attacking set, but again, Infernape kind of does this a lot better because of its higher speed and greater versatility. The one thing that Emboar has over these mons is Sucker Punch, but since it's not exactly reliable, it's not even too much of a redeeming factor.

If it were to be ranked, I wouldn't go any higher than C. I see things there that are in situations very similar to Emboar: Exploud is almost entirely outclassed by Porygon-Z (hits almost exactly as hard, faster, Agility and Nasty Plot, Trick) and Mega Audino faces stiff competition from Florges (more versatile with viable CM, immediate recovery in Synthesis, stronger STAB, has Fighting resist, doesn't take up Mega slot). So yeah while Serperior is very very unique and threatening in what it does, Emboar in UU finds itself with heavy competition from things that simply do its job better.

Alright I know this was brought up way earlier but I wanted to see some discussion on Pangoro. Simply put, stall has NOTHING to kill this unless they want to run something like Crobat (and even then, have fun switching in if it's not SD). With SD Lum, Pangoro finds many opportunities to set up against defensive teams. If it runs Iron Head, it OHKOs every Fairy except for Granbull, which can be OHKOd if Pangoro runs Gunk Shot instead. I'm fairly sure that the only other ways that stall can deal with SD Lum Pangoro, besides unorthodox things like Crobat or Whimsicott, is by haxing it with two Scald burns in a row or dodging a Gunk Shot. Its ability to keep itself healthy with Iron Fist-boosted Drain Punch is amazing for it. CB is also very good because it 2HKOs like everything except for physically defensive Gligar. The speed loss from Hammar Arm is an issue though, as it makes it more susceptible to Scald and other attacks. Pangoro's in C right now but I think it should go up to B- at least.

Edit: forgot to say that Pangoro's bad speed and /eh/ bulk makes it not great against offense, which is one of the biggest reasons it's held back from a higher rank.
seconding this, with all the new moves from move tutors it's got a lot better.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I haven't actually used Emboar on a team, but I don't think it should be ranked very high. It seems, for a most part, outclassed by other high ranked Pokemon that would be able to do Emboar's job better. For example, Infernape is much faster, has access to multiple boosting moves, and is generally more versatile than Emboar. I could see Machamp being a better CB user because of its ability to absorb status with Guts, and also Knock Off is really good for dealing with things like Gligar. Emboar can't even pull off an effective AV set because its strongest moves all wear down its health or lower its defenses. The best I could see it doing is some sort of Life Orb all-out attacking set, but again, Infernape kind of does this a lot better because of its higher speed and greater versatility. The one thing that Emboar has over these mons is Sucker Punch, but since it's not exactly reliable, it's not even too much of a redeeming factor.

If it were to be ranked, I wouldn't go any higher than C. I see things there that are in situations very similar to Emboar: Exploud is almost entirely outclassed by Porygon-Z (hits almost exactly as hard, faster, Agility and Nasty Plot, Trick) and Mega Audino faces stiff competition from Florges (more versatile with viable CM, immediate recovery in Synthesis, stronger STAB, has Fighting resist, doesn't take up Mega slot). So yeah while Serperior is very very unique and threatening in what it does, Emboar in UU finds itself with heavy competition from things that simply do its job better.

Alright I know this was brought up way earlier but I wanted to see some discussion on Pangoro. Simply put, stall has NOTHING to kill this unless they want to run something like Crobat (and even then, have fun switching in if it's not SD). With SD Lum, Pangoro finds many opportunities to set up against defensive teams. If it runs Iron Head, it OHKOs every Fairy except for Granbull, which can be OHKOd if Pangoro runs Gunk Shot instead. I'm fairly sure that the only other ways that stall can deal with SD Lum Pangoro, besides unorthodox things like Crobat or Whimsicott, is by haxing it with two Scald burns in a row or dodging a Gunk Shot. Its ability to keep itself healthy with Iron Fist-boosted Drain Punch is amazing for it. CB is also very good because it 2HKOs like everything except for physically defensive Gligar. The speed loss from Hammar Arm is an issue though, as it makes it more susceptible to Scald and other attacks. Pangoro's in C right now but I think it should go up to B- at least.

Edit: forgot to say that Pangoro's bad speed and /eh/ bulk makes it not great against offense, which is one of the biggest reasons it's held back from a higher rank.

Crobat isn't really too unorthodox because it has so much utility and checks most fighting pokemon. I get that it's not a true wall but stall doesn't always use 6 true walls, I would argue just the opposite and it rarely uses 6 walls. I don't see guys like forry and rosy as walls at all. Those are just words and lexicon that losers on elitist forums use though the main point for me is that stall has plenty of ways to deal with panda. Mega aero is very good on stall much the same way crobat is but with different typing and slightly different concrete things like crobat only using bb while aero has more niche coverage options and uses a mega slot. Both can murder panda. Granbull is also very good on stall and can usually beat panda. Quagsire can beat those without mold breaker. Cresselia can whack panda with moonblast and outspeed panda adamant with a few evs. Also panda is hard pressed to set up since its weak to all status. I bet stall has other ways to beat panda I can't even think of at the moment.
 
six wall stall has always been a bad idea considering it leaves you with minimal offensive presence to pressure the opponent into thinking twice about setting up. aerodactylite, suicune etc are all common options on stall with some degree of offensive presence (suicune can cm once and throw out +1 scalds in a pinch for instance, while even an uninvested aerial ace from aerodactyl can deal some decent damage due to tough claws)

panda is a threat, no doubt, but panda isn't the first pokemon to crap over stall (i'd argue that absolite is much more threatening than panda tbh, due to magic bounce and a much better speed tier). it's really just another stallbreaker, but common options like granbull already handle it decently fine so it's not really too big of a problem: i'd say its maybe b- at best
 
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