OPEN DISCUSSION - Gym Concerns and Issues

[Frosty]

Does ASB need an Elite 4 / Champion?
There needs to be something. I don't particularly care if you are going to create an E4 (there are indeed problems regarding the number of users necessary for that, so it may not be the most optimal option) or a Champion or some other stuff (give access to a special TLR or special RP or maybe have a special ladder of people who managed to beat the benchmark with like 5 spots where the one defeated loses his place to the one that defeated him...I don't know). But I feel there needs to be something, so the end isn't the ridiculous 18 badges benchmark.

What qualifications should the Elite 4 Members & the Champion have?
They must have passed the benchmark for being a challenger and they must be the 5 best players of those who passed the benchmark. Just allocate the people that defeated X gyms on the positions and when it is filled, challengers will have to face them to get their positions. Also create some way for the ones already there being able to get higher/challenge champion. What I feel we must rethink is E4 being necessarily gym leaders or that leaders will have to give up their gyms to be E4. I don't feel we have enough manpower to limit stuff like that, and I don't find it at all necessary.

What qualifications should an E4 challenger have?
I feel 6 badges is a good benchmark. Reachable, yet only 5 managed to do that. Still many badgeholders (our badges, not Smogon badges) are pretty capable of getting to 6 in due time.

 

[zarator]

Just an issue I would wish to arise - even if we set the benchmark down to 6 badges (let alone 8 or higher) we have the problem that the pool of viable E4 members is basically made by those very people and very few else (if at all). How are you going to manage that?

One solution could be to mimic what we did with the Gym badges - the Gym Leader has his badge as if he defeated himself. However, I am not sure it is such a good idea for the E4 as well because this would give a very strong advantage to the E4 members. Then again, I don't think we can really avoid it, because otherwise it would mean that E4 members can never become Champions, which could deter people from accepting the role of E4 in the first place and thus reduce the overall quality of what is supposed to be the best-bar-none slate of trainers from ASB (at least lore-wise).

 

[Pallas Athena]

For similar reasons I think that either there shouldn't be an institutional, permanent E4 or that the benchmark for serving on the Ek4 should be lower or measured differently than that to challenge it. It's part of why I support rewarding gym challenger success for challenging the Elite Four and gym leadership success for the ability to defend it.

 

[deadfox081]

This has been alluded to and underhandedly bitched about a bit lately, but I'd like to raise the issue of Gym arena strength and balancing. Currently our Gym arenas range from no effect (Fairy) to limited effects (Ground) to mild type buffing and weather effects (Grass, Poison, Bug, most others) to outright ridiculous (Ice and Fighting imo).

I realise it's up to the Gym council to approve these arenas and there has been an arguement made that StupidHail was allowed due to the otherwise shittyness of the majority of Ice types but there have to be other ways around it. Not aiming to single you out Waterwarrior or Birkal so please don't take this as such.

Some of the other arenas do have strong effects but they in large part work for both challenger and leader. Bug Gym's reduction in 4x weakness damage not only means that Heracross, Volc and Scizor get a little boost but it also allows me to bring in Salamence, Dragonite or Camerupt and gain a benefit. Ghost Gym's "everyone is 90 HP" is a great way to knock Colossoil and Pyroak down a peg but it also means that Golurk, Froslass, Jellicent and others zarator might bring have to take a little HP hit. Meanwhile Hail is never ever going to have a negative effect on Ice types (yes Soak is a thing but lets be serious) and limiting challengers bringing any like types to a 5 V 5 (!) match means that Fight Gym is almost never facing an optimal team. It's not even that these mechanics make the Gyms unbeatable, because they have shown they do not, they just make for an unpleasant fight to participate in and spectate.

[/bitch]

 

[Elevator Music]

This is a totally OK conversation to have (very glad you brought it up). But, just before the discussion becomes [partially] centered around it, waterwarrior has already changed his arena to not include SuperHail, and these current matches are the last of it. I'm not bringing this up to dismiss your concerns, just didn't want to wake up and see a bunch of people unnecessarily harping on it

Very tired atm, but I would love to see more discussion on this in general. Will try and contribute something when I can.

 

[Geodude6]

I somewhat agree with deadfox. Stupidhail IMO isn't really that stupid as it's not hard to play around with Overcoat (which belongs to mons like Escavalier and Wormadam-T to a lesser extent that would give the gym trouble regardless) as well as Safety Goggles and Reflect Type to a lesser extent; if you're facing one of the many mons with Ice Body there's Trace, Skill Swap, and Role Play, and then there's always the option of weather rocks like Mulan did with Tyranitar.

Fighting, on the other hand, is much stupider than stupidhail. What do people do when they challenge Rediamond? Load up on Fire and Flying mons. What do people do when they challenge me? Load up on fighters and fairies. What do people do when they challenge Emma? Load up on Steels and Poisons. But against Birkal? Your options are SEVERELY limited and that arena shouldn't even be allowed because it literally restricts the challenger's teambuilding, as opposed to something like Rediamond's gym (in which Solid Rock and Sturdy have no effect) you have no reason to bring Camerupt but could still bring it if you wanted to, but with Fighting, your choices are literally restricted, and unlike, say, Ice, Fighting is a very good typing, almost on the level of Psychic and Water, having powerful members like Gallade, Revenankh, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Keldeo, Lucario, Emboar... Basically I think Birkal needs an arena change as it's almost on the level of brokenness as the old Psyquic gym. Almost.

 

[Birkal]

lol

Fighting is extremely vulnerable to four of the most powerful types in this game. I don't know how other gym leaders do it, but taking on challengers with Gardevoir / Gallade / Togekiss / Dragonite / Gengar / Aurumoth / Kitsunoh spam doesn't sound like any fun. I don't have any Fighting-types with STAB options for Flying-types (hopefully Terrakion someday). Fairy is only stopped by Lucario, while Ghost is only stopped by Revenankh. And when I say "stopped," I mean at least an even team match-up; Gardevoir definitely still has the advantage versus Lucario. And as Gerard has proven time and time again, Psychic-type is obscene in ASB with great movepools and excellent disruption options, and that definitely doesn't help my gym. Not trying to complain here, just stating the facts.

Am I supposed to apologize for requiring people to think outside the box for my gym? You could bring any team of strongmons and have a great chance of winning. How about you ask the people that have challenged my new gym thus far. waterwarrior's Mega Blastoise and Electivire did very well, and they don't have a type match up. My gym is intended to benefit trainers that have diverse, strong Pokemon. If you don't have that, I'd argue you're not "ready" for my gym. But if you have strong mons and genuinely want to beat my gym (and try), I doubt you will have trouble beating it.

I fail to see how requiring challengers to bring a diverse crew is "extremely limiting." I'm requiring you to do more than mindless type-spam, yes. And even if that's your goal, bring Psychic / Flying / Ghost / Poison / Fairy and you'll do great. My gym is different by design, yes. But I would argue that isn't a bad thing at all. It's simply a different kind of challenge, where trainers will do better if they have strongmons, as opposed to type-spam, which is hideously easy to do against Fighting-types.

 

[Frosty]

Fighting gym has a considerable boost yeah, but it isn't by any means broken. The fact that you are forced to do more than spam fairies and flying types is a good thing not a bad thing. Gyms should provide the challengers with different experiences and they should prove versatility to win and Birkal's gym add to it. Also due to the way the other rules go, if you do the teambuilding job well (and it is hard but not impossible by any means) you can dominate momentum and matchups and win....perhaps even easily win if all conditions are right (example: see Gerard's challenge).

Sure, the latest 7vs7 challenge may be pushing the boundaries a little too far and anything beyond that is just ridiculous. But 5vs5 is 100% fine and I assure you with 100% certainty that if you bother to sit down and plan your team with calm and strategy, you will be able to come up with a winner squad. And then proceed to enter the match with a massive upperhand.

Of course, if you want to win by putting together 5 random mons good vs fighting, I suggest you try other stuff, 'cause if that is all you can do to defeat gyms, then...well...you won't go that far.

 

[waterwarrior]

Agreeing with Birkal and Frosty here- the only thing that needs to change in Fighting Gym is codified tie rules which is being worked on anyways. 7v7 series is a little ridiculous both for the length of the challenge and the fact that it just places insane restrictions on the challenger, but 5v5 is perfectly fine. Yes it limits your choices, but not to an extreme extent. God forbid we have a Gym that we win based more on skill than on "lol I brought x mon and nothing can beat it"

 

[Geodude6]

Bug: "Lol Mega Camerupt nothing can beat it" Rediamond changed his arena effects.
Ice: "Lol Bronzong nothing can beat it" ww changed his arena to the superhail, and Weavile doesn't do terribly against it.
Dragon: "Lol fairies" Texas made his arena give a boost to Poison and Steel moves and added Dragalge to his team.

My only gripe about Birkal's arena is that it restricts teambuilding in the sense that it basically says "You cannot bring both X and Y." Bug somewhat restricts teambuilding in the sense that certain mons are heavily discouraged from being brought (like Camerupt) but you could still bring Camerupt if you really wanted to.

 

[Pallas Athena]

If I have a concern with the fighting-gym, those would be my sentiments. With the exception of the "no megas" clause there is no other gym at present that restricts the exact team brought in to the fight. It also eliminates one of the major challenges every other gym leader has to deal with when preparing a team and arena. My gym can deal with almost any flying-type with solid play and smart switches. But if you bring in a team of Mega-Mence, Togekiss, Charizard-Y, and Tomohawk... it's going to be a struggle to put together four flying counters. Similarly I can be defeated by a mix of Pyroak/Aggron/Mega-Mence/whatever if the opponent outplays me on switches. Or you can choose to play with a neutral matchup and still quite possibly win.

Fighting-gym basically removes the possibility of the leader fighting the type of team I outlined at the start, meaning the leader only really has to have a single counter to every type whereas most other leadesr have to have at least two-deep response for every major weakness I have. This means that one of the major threats faced by literally every other leader just doesn't apply there. I think it's probably balanced at 5v5, but I don't like it because it seriously alters gym strategy.

And I don't buy the "You should be able to win a gym on neutral matchups" philosophy. These aren't tournaments. These are gyms with a specific type focus. If you're going to put a couple hundred UC into pumping up the biggest possible threats to a type, you should go in with an advantage for your investment of time and counters. It shouldn't be an auto-win, but it should at least be an advantage that we acknowledge and allow to exist in my opinion.

No opinions on the ice-gym, since that's apparently getting changed and... ice. Seriously.

 

[Mulan15262]

I know this is going a bit off of the discussion, but why do training items have their effects reversed? One extra counter isn't that big of a deal and you are hurting yourself if you choose to not equip any functional item.

 

[akela]

I know this is going a bit off of the discussion, but why do training items have their effects reversed? One extra counter isn't that big of a deal and you are hurting yourself if you choose to not equip any functional item.

To prevent people from challenging gym leaders for the single purpose of training their pokemon without using one of their three normal battle slots to do so.

 

[Frosty]

^^

Also back to Fighting Gym: By the last posts it seems that the issue isn't the "brokenness" of it, but how the mechanic limits teambuilding. There were a precedent on that matter: the first version of the Water Gym had a similar mechanic (challengers were forced to send out, for doubles, mons who shared at least one typing) and it was shot down by the committee of that time. So it isn't a out-of-whack concern imo. Personally I don't see the harm in stuff like that, as long as it doesn't go overboard (7vs7 imo is overboard btw, but I suppose I can deal with it if it needs be), but I didn't see the harm of atheno's arena either and yet it was changed, so I suppose it is up for the committee to decide if that kind of mechanic should be allowed. If yes, then...well...if you can't defeat them join them I suppose.

 

[Frosty]

Do we have any ETA (heck: anything) on Flying Gym? It is the only gym without a leader or that isn't ongoing qualifiers.

 

[tavok]

Oh hey look AOPSUser vs ff7hero ended.

Can we proceed with the qualifiers?

 

[Dogfish44]

Steel Qualifiers:

Round Robin, we'll break 3-way ties by remaining HP if needed, and failing that directly by committee.

tavok vs AOPSUser
REF: Frosty

tavok vs Mulan15262
REF: TSRD

AOPSUser vs Mulan15262
REF: Dogfish44

Format:
Send 6, Play 3 Singles
2 Day DQ
Recoveries / Mon: 2
Chills / Mon: 5
Abilities = All
Items = All
Switch = OK
0 Megas

Sorry for the delay, please send in ASAP!

 

[TSRD]

Tavok defeats Mulan in the Steel qualifiers.

 

[Dogfish44]

Owing to AOPSUser forfeiting qualifiers, Steel Gym is awarded to tavok. Congrats!

Tavok, please contact the gym committee (Myself, Elevator Music and Pwnemon) to discuss your gym arena, and how we'll advance from here.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Hi. Frosty has eleven badges. If we're going to do an E4 thing, that should be finalized very soon. Or we go by (I think Frosty's) old point that if we choose not to do anything to finish a league challenge now, there won't be one.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Frosty is right, it takes too much effort to get all the badges and is not cool for us to have an E4 early on.

So I was thinking, When Frosty gets 18 Badges he gets crowned as the Champion of ASB. Then Emma gets 18 Badges he is crowned as the first Elite Trainer of ASB. Then IAR gets 18 Badges and both of them would be called as the Elites of ASB. Then Dogfish and Gerard get 18 Badges and we will have 4 Elites.

The first Elite trainer can challenge the champion to a battle for the championship, with a cool down period of a few months. The other Elites have to defeat the rest of the Elites in the order that they achieved the Elite status. So IAR would challenge Emma for First Elite. Dogfish and Gerard would challenge each other, then IAR and then Emma for the first Elite status.

Then if Texas gets the 18 badges, he has to challenge the Elite Four and the champion to claim the champion's throne. I am just extrapolating the badge difference, the order could vary depending on who reaches there first.

*And the Elite League will only have 1 Battle Slot for challenges and 1 Battle Slot for defenses for each trainer. Self-Explanatory I guess, but just saying.

 

[Pallas Athena]

If you have to wait to get eighteen badges to activate a cool thing, I don't see the point of having the cool thing. For reference, in order to round out your elite four five people would need to reach 18 badges. The problem is, if we assume that the people with the most badges now would continue on to become the elite four two of those people only have six badges at present. Which means they're one third the way there. After about two years of effort. I think it's absurd to believe that we can get not one or two, but five or six people all the way to eighteen badges and expect them to remain active. I personally wouldn't go any higher than 12 for activating the cool thing, since realistically no more than one or two people are going to go all the way to 18 badges in the entire lifespan of the game if this thing has the longevity of most normal leagues.

 

[Mulan15262]

I think 12 is a good place to start the E4 and Champion (assuming we have one), unless people would want to go with in game precedent and require 8 badges instead. With 12, nothing would change until Frosty gets his next badge, while with 8, we would just need to add in Frosty and Elevator Music. It wouldn't be too hard either way.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Yeah makes sense to start it at 12 or 8. That way the champion has something to do too. I was just spit-balling there, also there was a discussion of keeping the E4 eligibility as 6 Badges earlier.

Imo, lets vote for the number of badges required for a trainer to be eligible for E4. Then we could decide the rest of THE COOL THING ^_^

(12 - 8 - 6 - 4) are the current options I suppose.

Edit: After we decide this though, can the Champion and E4 have Smogon badges awarded for them? In which case, the change of champion would become yearly I suppose?

 

[Avnomke]

I highly doubt that the rest of smogon wants to give out badges for being the best at ASB.

Also, I don't see the point of having an E4 tbh.