I am at Azalea Town and already have Sandshrew, Ledyba and Slowpoke in the party (they all suck) . Going to add Mt. Mortar low-levelled Golbat and Lapras later.
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The problem is that Moon Stone is available after Morty even in GS - the difference is it is in Tohjo Falls. My question is - how severe is the penalty here?
Dont you need Waterfall to get it in Tohjo Falls? If not then A for both
Has anyone tried out Cubone? It seems pretty good on paper. It's a bit expensive ($40k to buy it with coins) but it gets some solid moves. Bone Club is stronk (65 BP STAB, though 85% accurate), and then at L25 it learns Bonemerang. Considering it comes at L15, that's not that long away, and then it evolves at L28. It doesn't really get any other good moves besides a natural Headbutt, but this might be all it needs since it's using "Earthquake" for most of the game.
Im hoping whoever is playing Crystal can try out Cubone if they could. I did mention him in Pokemon I would like to see tested, but it seems like a mon that could teeter between C and B a bit more than Sandslash. Not saying 'slash is bad but Cubone has natural Ground-type attacks. Cubone is kind of slow though and not really the bulkiest either.
I played with Marowak before. Saving Dig/Earthquake for other potential users is definitely a boon. It's mostly comparable to Phanpy and Sandshrew otherwise, bulk included (Marowak actually has the highest special defence stat of the three), though Donphan will be the hardest hitter assuming they all get the same moves. Donphan's 120 atk > Sandslash's 100 atk > Marowak's 80.
Of course, Thick Club won't be available until much later, if ever.
Of course, Thick Club won't be available until much later, if ever.
Man Thick Club would boost its perfomance up so much it is not funny.
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now that I think about it...I will check out some interesting special moves mons (aka having access to rare interesting typings and/or simply good moves), I will edit this post later, it is here to remind me after all :P
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now that I think about it...I will check out some interesting special moves mons (aka having access to rare interesting typings and/or simply good moves), I will edit this post later, it is here to remind me after all :P
Once again I think I need to reiterate that (base) stats seem overrated by some people. If something has a big number in some stat, yeah that can be nice, but they lose a lot of weight compared to other properties like movepool and availability when Pokémon aren't even L50 for most of the game. Look at Donphan: yeah, it has 40 more base Atk, but it has absolutely no moves to show for it.
idk a Marowak Thunderpunch, a Nidoking Thunderpunch and an Alakazam Thunderpunch are very different things to me. And I estimate you probably wouldn't argue with that either.
I think what you meant to say is that Cubone's natural access to moves distinguishes him among other ground-types who get absolutely nothing and rely on TMs like Dig and Earthquake (which are indeed more powerful in their 'hands') which others could want as well. The availability is more or less the same here (if we mean Crystal Phanpy anyway).
By the way, I think you once said that stats are of lesser importance early on (you were speaking of RBY specifically), could you explain what you meant by that? Has it got something to do with the way the damage formula works?
I think what you meant to say is that Cubone's natural access to moves distinguishes him among other ground-types who get absolutely nothing and rely on TMs like Dig and Earthquake (which are indeed more powerful in their 'hands') which others could want as well. The availability is more or less the same here (if we mean Crystal Phanpy anyway).
By the way, I think you once said that stats are of lesser importance early on (you were speaking of RBY specifically), could you explain what you meant by that? Has it got something to do with the way the damage formula works?
Of course when you compare Thunderpunches it's going to show a big gap in power. But give them optimal moves for their proper stats and use them in a situation that's actually realistic for them and the gap is very small.
Not the damage formula, but the stat formula.
L20 Kadabra has 59 SpAtk.
L20 Abra has 53 SpAtk.
L20 Nidorino has 33 SpAtk.
L20 Cubone has 27 SpAtk.
L10 Abra has 29 SpAtk.
L10 NidoranM has 16 SpAtk.
L10 Cubone has 16 SpAtk.
My point is that earlier in the game, especially before evolutions are complete, stat differences are smaller than later on. Base power gaps between moves, however, remain the same. A practical application of this is that moves like Surf and Headbutt/Return can make a bigger impact than having crummy stats because they have ridiculous base power.
Not the damage formula, but the stat formula.
L20 Kadabra has 59 SpAtk.
L20 Abra has 53 SpAtk.
L20 Nidorino has 33 SpAtk.
L20 Cubone has 27 SpAtk.
L10 Abra has 29 SpAtk.
L10 NidoranM has 16 SpAtk.
L10 Cubone has 16 SpAtk.
My point is that earlier in the game, especially before evolutions are complete, stat differences are smaller than later on. Base power gaps between moves, however, remain the same. A practical application of this is that moves like Surf and Headbutt/Return can make a bigger impact than having crummy stats because they have ridiculous base power.
You can only get Friend Ball after getting Surf (which is after Morty) since the only Green Apricorn requires Surf and Cut to get.
EDIT: Caught a Lv13 Golbat after Morty and uses the Return TM on it. After the Haircut brother trip, it raises in happiness quickly and you can grind during the Bug-Catching Contest or against the trainers in the underground path (Return 2HKOes everything). After it evolved (around Lv 18 - 20), it sweeps the Cianwood Gym, only having to worry about Rock Slide from Machoke. (Surf from Poliwrath deals laughable damage). Can't do anything against Jasmine and Pryce (Dewgong is too bulky and Aurora Beam 2HKOes) although it wipes out Rockets in Mahogany with Return / STAB Fly (even Magnemite is 2HKOed).
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Mekkah, I don't know why you're citing such examples to showcase a realistic situation when Cubone can't be at L10 (unless you breed for some reason) and Nidorino can't punch at all before you stone it.
Also, here's Tauros vs Miltank (100 base attack vs 80):
L5: 15-16 vs 13-14
L10: 25-28 vs 21-24
L20: 45-51 vs 37-43
L30: 65-74 vs 53-62
L40: 85-97 vs 69-81
The difference between their attack stats always hovers around the same multiplier of ~1.15-1.22 regardless of level.
And let's say you get Surf when your team is at L20. One player is raising a Krabby whilst another one just used a Water Stone on Staryu.
L20: 15-21 sp. atk. vs 45-51 sp. atk.
Starmie will be doing 2.5-3 times as much damage. So I think stats shouldn't be ignored.
And my bad, you do have to Surf to get access to that Friend Ball. Well, Golbat isn't that useful against Morty anyway.
Also, here's Tauros vs Miltank (100 base attack vs 80):
L5: 15-16 vs 13-14
L10: 25-28 vs 21-24
L20: 45-51 vs 37-43
L30: 65-74 vs 53-62
L40: 85-97 vs 69-81
The difference between their attack stats always hovers around the same multiplier of ~1.15-1.22 regardless of level.
And let's say you get Surf when your team is at L20. One player is raising a Krabby whilst another one just used a Water Stone on Staryu.
L20: 15-21 sp. atk. vs 45-51 sp. atk.
Starmie will be doing 2.5-3 times as much damage. So I think stats shouldn't be ignored.
And my bad, you do have to Surf to get access to that Friend Ball. Well, Golbat isn't that useful against Morty anyway.
Comparisons such as those mean nothing unless they actually allow the Pokemon with the higher stats to perform better. I mean, it's all well and good to say Tauros has more Attack than Miltank, but if Miltank were hypothetically able to acheive most/all of the OHKO/2HKOs that Tauros could (whether it be by using the same moves or different ones), it doesn't make for much of an advantage for Tauros.
(I'm not saying that it does or does not make a practical difference in performance between those 2 Pokemon since I've used neither, I'm just making the point that just comparing the stats of 2 or more Pokemon and assuming that the one with the best stats will automatically be at an advantage isn't a good idea).
(I'm not saying that it does or does not make a practical difference in performance between those 2 Pokemon since I've used neither, I'm just making the point that just comparing the stats of 2 or more Pokemon and assuming that the one with the best stats will automatically be at an advantage isn't a good idea).
I wasn't looking for a side by side comparison that applied in practice, I just used your examples. Yes, it's the same multiplier, but it's a smaller difference (2 pts at L5 vs 16 pts at L40). Those Tauros vs Miltank differences mean like nothing in practice. It's prolly within a damage roll.
Yeah, an actual big gap like Starmie vs Krabby using Surf, that can matter every once in a while. Though they will still be eerily similar in a lot of fights where Krabby would use Surf (eg Hikers), once again showing that the fact that they have access to Surf is much more important than how much of a SpAtk stat is behind it.
Yeah, an actual big gap like Starmie vs Krabby using Surf, that can matter every once in a while. Though they will still be eerily similar in a lot of fights where Krabby would use Surf (eg Hikers), once again showing that the fact that they have access to Surf is much more important than how much of a SpAtk stat is behind it.
So I will make a quick 4 Pokemon Run in Pokemon:
|||||HM Slaves
*->
(* it gets replaced)
Current Run Progress, 4 Badges, acquired HM Strength, Surf, Cut, Flash: (Note: Huge Picture)
http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/3838/Goldabenteuer.png
|||||HM Slaves
Current Run Progress, 4 Badges, acquired HM Strength, Surf, Cut, Flash: (Note: Huge Picture)
http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/3838/Goldabenteuer.png
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I'm not so sure about Mareep in A. Its offence is good enough, but it's not really comparable to Magmar in spite of them having the same punches, one powered up by STAB, because Magmar is way faster, learns Flamethrower naturally and is immediately available fully evolved.
I just feel that, as a slowmon, it could use some qualities like having a good typing to tank attacks, i.e. something Golem has but Mareep doesn't (resistances to electric and steel don't really cut it, though that makes it pretty decent for Jasmine and it's pretty good in many other places as well).
To ping-pong what atsync said about Mareep being 'at least an A', I'd just say it's 'at most an A', and that's still kinda pushing it IMHO.
Offering 20% more damage (nearly within a damage roll as you say) will still help you finish off some foes without taking a counter back if that 20% damage gives you sufficient power to OHKO/2HKO/etc. It may not matter in many cases, but if you have to choose between less attack and more attack, in a vacuum... well, you get the idea.
I just feel that, as a slowmon, it could use some qualities like having a good typing to tank attacks, i.e. something Golem has but Mareep doesn't (resistances to electric and steel don't really cut it, though that makes it pretty decent for Jasmine and it's pretty good in many other places as well).
To ping-pong what atsync said about Mareep being 'at least an A', I'd just say it's 'at most an A', and that's still kinda pushing it IMHO.
Dealing 3x damage with Surf will come handy in a great number of situations, regardless.
Offering 20% more damage (nearly within a damage roll as you say) will still help you finish off some foes without taking a counter back if that 20% damage gives you sufficient power to OHKO/2HKO/etc. It may not matter in many cases, but if you have to choose between less attack and more attack, in a vacuum... well, you get the idea.
Mareep would never reach S Tier anyway.
A big thing with Mareep in A is that STAB ThunderPunch is still pretty damn strong throughout the game. It certainly is not Thunderbolt; however, it beats many Electric-types like Lanturn which have Spark or Magnemite with the godly ThunderShock. In comparison to Magmar:
- Mareep's earlier existence gives it relevance against Bugsy's Scyther - only Geodude / Onix really beat Scyther better (and Quilava).
- Mareep, once Flaaffy, is probably one of your strongest teammates in the field thanks to the obtainable STAB ThunderPunch TM. The closest are Normal-types with STAB Headbutt.
- Mareep nor Flaaffy really excel against Morty. Magmar is probably superior due to its higher SpA and being able to possibly outspeed Gastly and Haunter.
- Chuck is better in Flaaffy's hands if you can get to Ampharos fast enough. This one might be a bit shoddy though.
- Jasmine is arguably better in Magmar's hands but certainly not bad for Ampharos / Magmar.
- Pryce is arguably better in Ampharos' s hands than Magmar's.
- Both Magmar and Ampharos are ineffective vs Dragonair - Ampharos does have an edge against Kindgra though.
- Will is slightly better with Ampharos but Magmar certainly holds its own. Will'ss Xatus and Slowbro dont enjoy Ampharos. Meanwhile Exeggutor and Jynx arent fans of Magmar.
- Magmar has a slight edge against Koga because Venomoth, Forretress, and Ariados are likely KOed easier by Magmar than Ampharos. Ampharos is the mvp vs Crobat and both suck against Muk.
- Neither should really face Bruno.
- Karen is kind of the same boat, but Magmar likely hits a bigger threat than Ampharos.
- Lance is better in Ampharos' s hands than Magmar's since STAB ThunderPunch will likely do more damage against Charizard, Aerodacyl, and Gyarados.
- In Kanto Ampharos has an edge on Brock's Omastar and Kabutops.
- Ampharos beats everyone in Misty's gym bar Quagsire.
- Lt Surge has Magneton for Magmar.
- Eirika loses to Magmar no contest.
- Sabrina is odd. Ampharos takes hits better here but thats about it.
- Jasmine is Magmar territory.
- Blaine... eh.
- Gary's Pidgeot and Gyarados fall to Ampharos. Magmar has Exeggutor.
- Ampharos beats Blastoise and Charizard while Magmar beats Venusaur. You could have Ampharos tackle Pikachu and Magmar tackle Charizard I guess.
In field fights Magmar is usually better with higher Speed and better offense until Mareep is Ampharos.
While Ampharos loses to Magmar, Im not sure it loses that badly in comparison. If we accept Magmar potentially S, Mareep should probably be A since their performance is similar but varies from time to time. If we accept Magmar as A, this could be debatable if Mareep is A or B.
A big thing with Mareep in A is that STAB ThunderPunch is still pretty damn strong throughout the game. It certainly is not Thunderbolt; however, it beats many Electric-types like Lanturn which have Spark or Magnemite with the godly ThunderShock. In comparison to Magmar:
- Mareep's earlier existence gives it relevance against Bugsy's Scyther - only Geodude / Onix really beat Scyther better (and Quilava).
- Mareep, once Flaaffy, is probably one of your strongest teammates in the field thanks to the obtainable STAB ThunderPunch TM. The closest are Normal-types with STAB Headbutt.
- Mareep nor Flaaffy really excel against Morty. Magmar is probably superior due to its higher SpA and being able to possibly outspeed Gastly and Haunter.
- Chuck is better in Flaaffy's hands if you can get to Ampharos fast enough. This one might be a bit shoddy though.
- Jasmine is arguably better in Magmar's hands but certainly not bad for Ampharos / Magmar.
- Pryce is arguably better in Ampharos' s hands than Magmar's.
- Both Magmar and Ampharos are ineffective vs Dragonair - Ampharos does have an edge against Kindgra though.
- Will is slightly better with Ampharos but Magmar certainly holds its own. Will'ss Xatus and Slowbro dont enjoy Ampharos. Meanwhile Exeggutor and Jynx arent fans of Magmar.
- Magmar has a slight edge against Koga because Venomoth, Forretress, and Ariados are likely KOed easier by Magmar than Ampharos. Ampharos is the mvp vs Crobat and both suck against Muk.
- Neither should really face Bruno.
- Karen is kind of the same boat, but Magmar likely hits a bigger threat than Ampharos.
- Lance is better in Ampharos' s hands than Magmar's since STAB ThunderPunch will likely do more damage against Charizard, Aerodacyl, and Gyarados.
- In Kanto Ampharos has an edge on Brock's Omastar and Kabutops.
- Ampharos beats everyone in Misty's gym bar Quagsire.
- Lt Surge has Magneton for Magmar.
- Eirika loses to Magmar no contest.
- Sabrina is odd. Ampharos takes hits better here but thats about it.
- Jasmine is Magmar territory.
- Blaine... eh.
- Gary's Pidgeot and Gyarados fall to Ampharos. Magmar has Exeggutor.
- Ampharos beats Blastoise and Charizard while Magmar beats Venusaur. You could have Ampharos tackle Pikachu and Magmar tackle Charizard I guess.
In field fights Magmar is usually better with higher Speed and better offense until Mareep is Ampharos.
While Ampharos loses to Magmar, Im not sure it loses that badly in comparison. If we accept Magmar potentially S, Mareep should probably be A since their performance is similar but varies from time to time. If we accept Magmar as A, this could be debatable if Mareep is A or B.
What might be easier in that regard, would be to determine what exactly an S Pokemon and an A Pokemon look like, with an example of each. If we all could agree on 1 more for all 6 levels, tiering based on those guides as a base would be easier. If one Mon, for example, Golem performs considerably better than the A ranked example, but worse than the S rank, would fall in A+. If Golem performs only marginally better or worse than the A example, it would be A.
I think Abra/Totodile would be the easiest to begin with as almost everyone agrees with their S status.
If this has been tried before, please feel free to ignore.
That's why I think Dile is the best S example. May not be huge in stats but the fact he comes early, has good typing and good match ups makes him S
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