I actually think YardY is a great teammate and who I plan to use him with. They both handle eachothers checks and counters pretty well.
If you want something more defensive, Rotom-H is pretty good too on paper at least
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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If you want something more defensive, Rotom-H is pretty good too on paper at least
I tend to play more offensive, so I'm looking forward to bring back char y on a team. Time to start teambuilding
FrocoTerra
Banned deucer.
In terms of the current meta, what is the best play style? I find Balance is still strong and Mega Sableye has really made Stall a great option.
The tournament is this weekend, and prizes are usually distributed a few days after it's ended. So I'm guessing somewhere around next wednesday?
After the tournament has ended; on the 30th.
The tournament ends on the 25th though.
That's still after the tournament's ended :U
Either way, the official website still lists the Tyrunt distribution as the 30th.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
At the moment the metagame is very balanced as in stall is useful, balance is useful, bulky offense is useful and hyper offense is useful. I feel like Hyper Offense is the best in the current metagame
Thing is with both HO and stall is they risk losing right at team preview due to bad matchup, other teams that are balanced have the availability to to beat a bad matchup with good plays.
At the same time tho winning with stall or HO with little effort is also nice.
FrocoTerra
Banned deucer.
Having always played Balance, before recently losing access to a computer just as I started trying out HO and Stall, is there a specific good matchup for each? Like, does Stall like to come up against HO, or anything? Does this change with the meta or anything?
I think stall has an advantage against HO. HO wants the game end quickly and Stall wants to wait it out as long as possible. Basically HO has a window at the beginning of the match to snatch a lot of momentum by making nice predictions and netting a KO or two, but if stall weathers this initial storm it's usually a win.
Though I believe in general it might depend more on the pokemon on each team than the style each team plays with.
Though I believe in general it might depend more on the pokemon on each team than the style each team plays with.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
It is really match-up based. HO often packs 2 big wall- or stallbreakers like Lando-I, Mega Lopunny or Stallbreaker Talonflame. Most of the time stall has a really hard time playing around threats like Lando-I or SD Bisharp and if they manage to beat them there is still stuff like AV Azumarill that can be annoying if unprepared for.
With the speed creep being really high this generation, and you now need 81+ base speed (with scarf) to outspeed everything non scarf, would a Scarf Moxie Gyarados be viable? Obviously used late game, and it can also be used as a mind game for your opponent who'll probably think "Oh poo, a Gyarados, must be the mega". Maybe it won't be as good as the mega counterpart, but I think the surprise factor is a big part of the game, and who genuinely thinks when they see a Gyarados "It must be scarf"?
If the HO team is built effectively, it will probably include a stallbreaker or some way to beat stall. Megagarde and several powerful wallbreakers are capable of destroying stall
Even though i ser your point scarf gyara is just not good as it mega counter part or even his regular form with other sets.Being one of the best dd users which gives the same speed buff+ attack which combined with its defensive typing is just a waste of potencial in my opinion and also having better options as scarfers like lando-t
The main reasons why scarf moxie users aren't that viable in this meta are that there are a large amount of powerful priority users that make the choice scarf redundant, there are a lot of resists (m-slowbro, keldeo, latis) for waterfall (which is it's only spammable move), unaware clefable can give it a lot of problems, and all it takes is a strong opposing scarf mon with a base speed higher than 81 to beat it. Also, by using scarf moxie you are missing out on the opportunity to use m-gyarados, a very potent sweeper at the moment. The opportunity cost for using scarf moxie is far greater than the reward for using it, which would also take a significant amount of team support.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Also, Taunt Gengar is pretty good at keeping Stall in check.
Yeah i do agree gyrados is a monster with its mega evolution, personally becasue of its typing and new ability, Not evo gyrados i still strong and OU worthy, however deciding to use its mega doesnt let you play other megas such as MegaGallade or MegaHeracross. For example, different from gyrados, these pokemon rely so much in their Stones to be competitive in OU, gyrados does not.
Using Moxie Gyarados also means that you do not have Intimidate, which is a crazy good ability that really emphasis Gyara's bulk and typing and will at least be useful in every game , even if you sacked your 1hp burned Gyara to a random threatening physical sweeper so that your check can take a hit at -1. Moxie, on the other hand, is really hit or miss, and you can't rely on some kind of surprise factor because, well, Intimidate did not activate on the switchin.
As for moxie + scarf, it is just not a consistent strategy because a) waterfall will be a 80BP stabbed move coming from an itemless mon with a base 125 attack - in other words, weak, and you can't even switch between your moves- and b) it's revenge killing abilities are mediocre at best, which is always expected or at least appreciated from a scarfer; because it is weak, rather slow for a scarfer, and its coverage is terribly weak as well (unstabbed ice fang EQ and crunch, yay). However, DD Moxie Gyara, who can at least switch between its moves, use its second stab, use taunt and substitute, hold an item and become rather threatening if it gets a turn of setup (well at least you can't just be terribly passive in front of it) is way more likely to get a moxie boost and sweep.
Scarf might get you a surprise kill in some (rare) situation, but losing intimidate and the ability to go mega is already an important opportunity cost (especially when both intimidate and its mega are crazy good), but since it is also an inferior DD Moxie Gyara in most cases, it's just not worth it.
As for moxie + scarf, it is just not a consistent strategy because a) waterfall will be a 80BP stabbed move coming from an itemless mon with a base 125 attack - in other words, weak, and you can't even switch between your moves- and b) it's revenge killing abilities are mediocre at best, which is always expected or at least appreciated from a scarfer; because it is weak, rather slow for a scarfer, and its coverage is terribly weak as well (unstabbed ice fang EQ and crunch, yay). However, DD Moxie Gyara, who can at least switch between its moves, use its second stab, use taunt and substitute, hold an item and become rather threatening if it gets a turn of setup (well at least you can't just be terribly passive in front of it) is way more likely to get a moxie boost and sweep.
Scarf might get you a surprise kill in some (rare) situation, but losing intimidate and the ability to go mega is already an important opportunity cost (especially when both intimidate and its mega are crazy good), but since it is also an inferior DD Moxie Gyara in most cases, it's just not worth it.
I won't argue that Scarf Moxie Gyarados is better than all of its other sets cause it really isn't but the whole point of the set is for cleaning and added coverage, not setup. Also you wouldn't really be using Ice Fang if anything you would be using stuff like Stone Edge to hit Thundurus, Kyurem-B, etc. Not really advocating the set to but from recent experience you're all sort of missing the point of what it's suppose to do on the off chance you would even consider it. These surprise situations aren't exactly rare either lol. It's a pretty hilarious way to win end game cause they thought they had the jump on you with a set nobody uses. However you're better off using its other sets. Also Intimidate sucks if the team has potential Bisharp issues so you really need to think about everything else because something recommended by everyone doesn't necessarily make it the right choice.
Scarf moxie gyarados is exactly the kind of set that gets slightly better or becomes a bit more useful just because the other main sets are the more common ones. You can go ahead and slap a scarf on a wide variety of pokemon such as heatran, mamoswine, gardevoir, diggersby, jirachi and other things like that who usually have more common sets and one of the main purposes of the scarf is misdirection and unexpected fast kills or sacrificially weakening something.
It has just the right speed, useful typing, and a movepool with edgequake, crunch, bounce, fangs, and even body slam if you wanna go there. It really bulky by the way and can switch in on lots of stuff. It's not the premier scarfer in the game but it's completely useable and from my own experience, building a team around a mono-water sweep is an exciting challenge. If you go loaded with lures and traps for the likes of rotom, ferro, slowbro and get your hazards down you can by all means crush through in the end with simple waterfalls. And if a sweep is impossible? You still have a fast pokemon that can hit fairly hard. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to overstate it.
Gyarados is A- ranking mainly for its defensive sets and dragon dance sets but the mere option of running scarf moxie also contributes a portion.
It has just the right speed, useful typing, and a movepool with edgequake, crunch, bounce, fangs, and even body slam if you wanna go there. It really bulky by the way and can switch in on lots of stuff. It's not the premier scarfer in the game but it's completely useable and from my own experience, building a team around a mono-water sweep is an exciting challenge. If you go loaded with lures and traps for the likes of rotom, ferro, slowbro and get your hazards down you can by all means crush through in the end with simple waterfalls. And if a sweep is impossible? You still have a fast pokemon that can hit fairly hard. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to overstate it.
Gyarados is A- ranking mainly for its defensive sets and dragon dance sets but the mere option of running scarf moxie also contributes a portion.
FrocoTerra
Banned deucer.
Gyara isn't strong enough to have an effective Scarf. Sure, very situationally, you might outspeed something and catch it by surprise, but usually it would be expected to be a late game cleaner. It forgoes a great ability in Intimidate and that alone can give it away. But, when its strongest STAB is Waterfall and it only has 125 Attack, with many checks and no Initiative moves like U-Turn that makes Scarf Lando-T so useful, it can't make use of its speed when it can run Mega or Leftovers instead.
Not sure how much traction this discussion can get, but Hoopa was released on PO (i cant play on sd so not sure if its on there too) but holy smokes...this thing just tears apart defensive cores. Barely any common wall can hope to switch in on this thing...it's insane. How are balanced/stall teams dealing with this? Hoopa unbound that is.
The official simulator for Smogon is Showdown so PO isn't taken into account. Regardless, by Smogon rules we can't have Pokémon that we know everything about but aren't released yet (like Mega Lati@s back in XY) and hence Hoopa-U isn't a problem.
... yet.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
I've been playing OU a lot past few weeks and a few things really stood out.
Wallbreakers:
When building teams I always look for solid checks or counters for offensive threats like Landorus, Talonflame, Azumarill, Keldeo and Bisharp and when laddering in OU I feel like many balanced teams also have solid answers to this threats, but what I am seeing is that they are often lacking switchins for these 2 threats:
The sets I am talking about are the All-Out Attacker LO Mamoswine set and the LO 3 Atks Gengar set. These two pokemon slice through many balanced teams very easily because there is basically nothing that wants to switch in. Of course they have many good checks or counters like Keldeo and Mega Scizor (against Mamoswine) and Conkeldurr and Bisharp (against Gengar) but they can only switch in once. Below are some calcs against the 10 most common OU pokemon at the moment
Definitely some pokemon that can win you the game against balance, while also having amazing wallbreaking power against stall.
Dogs:
Raikou is very popular on the ladder at the moment. The other 2 dogs are 2 pokemon I've had many fun with
We all know Suicune for its CroCune set. CroCune fits very well in the current metagame as it can set up on threats like Landorus-T and Heatran. Suicune wins CM battles against Clefable and Sableye because of Pressure which is a very good niche. It can also take on Mega Metagross surprisingly well, only 4HKO'd by Zen Headbutt and having a 30% for a scald burn really helps. It can also take hits from Mega Lopunny and Azumarill very well so you often have a nice switchin in the back if something goes wrong.
Nothing wants to switch into a Sacred Fire from Entei. The banded set made it to S rank in UU because a banded Sacred Fire + burn chance is very hard to switch into. However, in OU I think the Assault Vest set is a better set because it is a solid counter to Gengar, Mega Gardevoir (without rocks) and Volcarona, who can be huge threats to some teams. Even without the band, Sacred Fire is annoying to switch into because of the huge burn chance. It also gets priority and good coverage to help defeating things like Talonflame. The reason I think Entei is not very effective is that Stealth Rocks are everywhere and with rocks up it can't even switch into Gengar comfortably.
Stallbreakers:
Stall is always prepared for common stallbreakers like Mega Gardevoir and Mew, but stall nowadays is kinda weak against some common stallbreakers. We all know Mega Heracross, Gothitelle and Manaphy can beat stall very easily, but they don't fit on every team. Some other stallbreakers fits very well on offensive teams. I'm mainly talking about Talonflame and Keldeo
Talonflame's XY Stallbreaker set (Roost, Taunt, Wisp, Brave Bird) has arguably gotten worse because of Mega Sableye. The decline of the stallbreaker set really helped stall because the set was always annoying af to deal with. Now stall is less prepared for Talonflame, Talonflame flies back to the stall with a little change in its set. With Swords Dance over Taunt or Wisp, it can set up on Mega Sableye easily and OHKO it after it boosted. If Mega Sableye tries to boost alongside Talonflame, it fails to do more than 50% at the end. Pokemon like Alomomola, Chansey and Skarmory are shut down by Taunt and can only to little damage with Scald / Seismic Toss / Brave Bird. At the end of the day Talonflame often kills itself with all the Brave Bird damage, but it can often take a few pokemon down.
SubCM Keldeo is another set that is becoming more common and stall often only has 1 or 2 answers to it. Amoonguss can stall it out with Clear Smog as it doesn't give a damn about the Scalds or Secret Swords. Clefable wins the CM war or just beats it if it's Unaware and Gothitelle can counter it. After these pokemon have been eliminated, Keldeo can just set up on stuff like Mega Sableye or Alomomola and boosts its stats. At +1, Chansey is already OHKO'd and Skarmory dies to a +1 Scald.
Wallbreakers:
When building teams I always look for solid checks or counters for offensive threats like Landorus, Talonflame, Azumarill, Keldeo and Bisharp and when laddering in OU I feel like many balanced teams also have solid answers to this threats, but what I am seeing is that they are often lacking switchins for these 2 threats:
The sets I am talking about are the All-Out Attacker LO Mamoswine set and the LO 3 Atks Gengar set. These two pokemon slice through many balanced teams very easily because there is basically nothing that wants to switch in. Of course they have many good checks or counters like Keldeo and Mega Scizor (against Mamoswine) and Conkeldurr and Bisharp (against Gengar) but they can only switch in once. Below are some calcs against the 10 most common OU pokemon at the moment
-1 240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 312-374 (97.8 - 117.2%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 801-951 (208 - 247%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 143-172 (47.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 156-185 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-312 (88.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 281-331 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 284-344 (86.8 - 105.1%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 801-951 (208 - 247%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 143-172 (47.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 156-185 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-312 (88.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 231-273 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 281-331 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 224-265 (56.8 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 284-344 (86.8 - 105.1%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 207-243 (64.8 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 250-294 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 237-281 (67.3 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 312-369 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 263-309 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (without eviolite)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 274-324 (92.2 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 110-133 (36.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 250-294 (64.9 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 237-281 (67.3 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 312-369 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 263-309 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (without eviolite)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 274-324 (92.2 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 110-133 (36.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Definitely some pokemon that can win you the game against balance, while also having amazing wallbreaking power against stall.
Dogs:
Raikou is very popular on the ladder at the moment. The other 2 dogs are 2 pokemon I've had many fun with
We all know Suicune for its CroCune set. CroCune fits very well in the current metagame as it can set up on threats like Landorus-T and Heatran. Suicune wins CM battles against Clefable and Sableye because of Pressure which is a very good niche. It can also take on Mega Metagross surprisingly well, only 4HKO'd by Zen Headbutt and having a 30% for a scald burn really helps. It can also take hits from Mega Lopunny and Azumarill very well so you often have a nice switchin in the back if something goes wrong.
Nothing wants to switch into a Sacred Fire from Entei. The banded set made it to S rank in UU because a banded Sacred Fire + burn chance is very hard to switch into. However, in OU I think the Assault Vest set is a better set because it is a solid counter to Gengar, Mega Gardevoir (without rocks) and Volcarona, who can be huge threats to some teams. Even without the band, Sacred Fire is annoying to switch into because of the huge burn chance. It also gets priority and good coverage to help defeating things like Talonflame. The reason I think Entei is not very effective is that Stealth Rocks are everywhere and with rocks up it can't even switch into Gengar comfortably.
Stallbreakers:
Stall is always prepared for common stallbreakers like Mega Gardevoir and Mew, but stall nowadays is kinda weak against some common stallbreakers. We all know Mega Heracross, Gothitelle and Manaphy can beat stall very easily, but they don't fit on every team. Some other stallbreakers fits very well on offensive teams. I'm mainly talking about Talonflame and Keldeo
Talonflame's XY Stallbreaker set (Roost, Taunt, Wisp, Brave Bird) has arguably gotten worse because of Mega Sableye. The decline of the stallbreaker set really helped stall because the set was always annoying af to deal with. Now stall is less prepared for Talonflame, Talonflame flies back to the stall with a little change in its set. With Swords Dance over Taunt or Wisp, it can set up on Mega Sableye easily and OHKO it after it boosted. If Mega Sableye tries to boost alongside Talonflame, it fails to do more than 50% at the end. Pokemon like Alomomola, Chansey and Skarmory are shut down by Taunt and can only to little damage with Scald / Seismic Toss / Brave Bird. At the end of the day Talonflame often kills itself with all the Brave Bird damage, but it can often take a few pokemon down.
SubCM Keldeo is another set that is becoming more common and stall often only has 1 or 2 answers to it. Amoonguss can stall it out with Clear Smog as it doesn't give a damn about the Scalds or Secret Swords. Clefable wins the CM war or just beats it if it's Unaware and Gothitelle can counter it. After these pokemon have been eliminated, Keldeo can just set up on stuff like Mega Sableye or Alomomola and boosts its stats. At +1, Chansey is already OHKO'd and Skarmory dies to a +1 Scald.
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