Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[56k]

Togekiss was getting some hate but damn that thing is solid. It basically fits into a certain class of pokemon like clefable, manaphy, suicune, and volcarona that have one main role in mind: switching into sableye and boosting up, putting the squeeze on stall teams. It has scary coverage, just like manaphy, and it's checks and counters require scouting, sometimes loosing a pokemon in the process.

+6 8 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (42.9 - 50.7%)
+6 8 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (30.3 - 35.6%)

That right there is a good enough niche: a special attacker that beats chansey, either with coverage or flinches. But combined with all the resistances and immunities it has, the sheer movepool and number of viable sets, and you've got a great pokemon on your hands.

But why should you ever use this thing over clefable? Isn't it completely outclassed by clef? In my opinion it has a solid niche and that is access to flying coverage, accurate fighting coverage, and overall much better stats (but a less useful ability to compensate).

And why not just use both on the same team?

Combined with all the options for NP offensive sets are the defensive sets and support sets. Defog, Tailwind, Heal Bell, and Baton Pass are all their as options.

85/95/115 bulk with reliable recovery?
Insane movepool to utilize 120 base spatk?
STAB flying (the best attacking type)?

It really seems like a solid B pokemon to be honest

The main issue keeping it down is that it can't reliably counter Latios like clefable can. Clef can switch in and counter it infinitely because it never gets worn down by hazards or other residual damage (which can otherwise kill off something like sylveon taking repeated psyshocks). Togekiss is in a similar position: much like gardevoir it just can't deal with LO Latios in the long run. Togekiss takes too much damage from hazards to do a defensive cleric job like that effectively.

So use it like a gardevoir or altaria instead of trying to be a bad clefable.

 

[Pooch13]

Togekiss was getting some hate but damn that thing is solid. It basically fits into a certain class of pokemon like clefable, manaphy, suicune, and volcarona that have one main role in mind: switching into sableye and boosting up, putting the squeeze on stall teams. It has scary coverage, just like manaphy, and it's checks and counters require scouting, sometimes loosing a pokemon in the process.

+6 8 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (42.9 - 50.7%)
+6 8 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (30.3 - 35.6%)

That right there is a good enough niche: a special attacker that beats chansey, either with coverage or flinches. But combined with all the resistances and immunities it has, the sheer movepool and number of viable sets, and you've got a great pokemon on your hands.

But why should you ever use this thing over clefable? Isn't it completely outclassed by clef? In my opinion it has a solid niche and that is access to flying coverage, accurate fighting coverage, and overall much better stats (but a less useful ability to compensate).

And why not just use both on the same team?

Combined with all the options for NP offensive sets are the defensive sets and support sets. Defog, Tailwind, Heal Bell, and Baton Pass are all their as options.

85/95/115 bulk with reliable recovery?
Insane movepool to utilize 120 base spatk?
STAB flying (the best attacking type)?

It really seems like a solid B pokemon to be honest

The main issue keeping it down is that it can't reliably counter Latios like clefable can. Clef can switch in and counter it infinitely because it never gets worn down by hazards or other residual damage (which can otherwise kill off something like sylveon taking repeated psyshocks). Togekiss is in a similar position: much like gardevoir it just can't deal with LO Latios in the long run. Togekiss takes too much damage from hazards to do a defensive cleric job like that effectively.

So use it like a gardevoir or altaria instead of trying to be a bad clefable.

3% chance to 2hko, and chansey cantoxic stall you while you boost :/ wouldnt sayit beats chchansey unless youreat+6 and rocksare up

EDIT : RichieTheGarchomp like AM said higher on the page that max speed, max sp att is one of togekiss best sets as it is a stall/wallbreaker, its both offensive and support, also 60% chance to flinch isnt considered hax as it has more chance to happen than it doesnt (Not my thought, read it onthe forums).

 

[Eckleburg]

Can someone explain me the ranking places of Gliscor and Hippo please?

I read this thread quite frequently, and I'm also playing PS (only ranked ~1650, but still enough to unterstand the current meta, I guess) but certainly, I just miss those arguments somehow.

@Glis: I've heard something about Sword Dance and SpD-Builds?

@Hippodown: Tyranitar gained viability again with its Choice Scarf set, and sand is, of course, good self-support. Plus, combined with Pokémon like Excadrill, it is a very huge threat. Anyway, Tyranitar and Ecxadrill present a good offensive... I don't know a good word for that right now - existence?
But Hippo? Isn't that thing too passive to be ranked that high? Or is the support so good, that it can verify its placement? I can't think of somebody else than Excadrill, but yeah. I guess I'm missing the point anyway.

Note: Sorry for my english, I'm not new here, but nevertheless, I'm from germany.

Thanks for your answers.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Togekiss was getting some hate but damn that thing is solid. It basically fits into a certain class of pokemon like clefable, manaphy, suicune, and volcarona that have one main role in mind: switching into sableye and boosting up, putting the squeeze on stall teams. It has scary coverage, just like manaphy, and it's checks and counters require scouting, sometimes loosing a pokemon in the process.

+6 8 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (42.9 - 50.7%)
+6 8 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: (30.3 - 35.6%)

That right there is a good enough niche: a special attacker that beats chansey, either with coverage or flinches. But combined with all the resistances and immunities it has, the sheer movepool and number of viable sets, and you've got a great pokemon on your hands.

But why should you ever use this thing over clefable? Isn't it completely outclassed by clef? In my opinion it has a solid niche and that is access to flying coverage, accurate fighting coverage, and overall much better stats (but a less useful ability to compensate).

And why not just use both on the same team?

Combined with all the options for NP offensive sets are the defensive sets and support sets. Defog, Tailwind, Heal Bell, and Baton Pass are all their as options.

85/95/115 bulk with reliable recovery?
Insane movepool to utilize 120 base spatk?
STAB flying (the best attacking type)?

It really seems like a solid B pokemon to be honest

The main issue keeping it down is that it can't reliably counter Latios like clefable can. Clef can switch in and counter it infinitely because it never gets worn down by hazards or other residual damage (which can otherwise kill off something like sylveon taking repeated psyshocks). Togekiss is in a similar position: much like gardevoir it just can't deal with LO Latios in the long run. Togekiss takes too much damage from hazards to do a defensive cleric job like that effectively.

So use it like a gardevoir or altaria instead of trying to be a bad clefable.

Ok, first off, no one in their right minds would stay into a goddamn Toge with Sableye. Secondly, you aint getting 3 NP's off for free in any playstyle (Stall can use status against you, balance can fuck you up upside down, right side up, and sideways, HO can use pure strength to kill you, and etc.) and thirdly, barely 2HKOing Eviolite Chansey with a 2x +6 boost is pathetic. Please, dont use it as a NP setter unless you wanna be that person who uses mediocre moves and shit on someone. Also good luck outspeeding anything HO and good luck doing anything to Stall besides taking out Celebi.

Also, factoring in hax to win is not only unreliable, but unreliable. Did I say it was unreliable? No one is gonna sit there and do nothing about you setting up NP's, Chansey is just gonna come in and woop your ass on the first NP lol. Toge is a joke with NP. If you wanna use NP on anything: Celebi, Thundurus I, That obvious mon im forgetting, etc. dont use it on goddamn Toge. Its not meant to be a setup sweeper. Its meant to be a cleric, a ParaFlincher, a defogger, a BP'er, fuck, even offensive scarf variants, but not Offensive NP.

Its movepool is horrible, I dont know what you are saying. Its strongest reliable move (Fire Blast) isnt even Stab. That bulk is decent, however this is overlooked by its 5 semi common weaknesses. Flying type is by far not the best offensive type. The only reason there is bird spam is because some pokemon have other coverages to hit other types.

I'm not arguing about putting Toge to anywhere, I'm just pointing out that you oversell Togekiss way more than it is. IMO just keep it where it is, it really hasnt gained a whole shitload.

Can someone explain me the ranking places of Gliscor and Hippo please?

I read this thread quite frequently, and I'm also playing PS (only ranked ~1650, but still enough to unterstand the current meta, I guess) but certainly, I just miss those arguments somehow.

@Glis: I've heard something about Sword Dance, combined with SpD-Build? Don't know.

@Hippodown: Tyranitar gained viability again with its Choice Scarf Set, and Sand is, of course, good self support, plus combined with Pokémon like Excadrill, it is a very huge threat. Anyway, Tyranitar and Ecxadrill offer a good offensive... I don't know a good word for that right now - existence?
But Hippo? Isn't that thing too passive to be ranked that high? Or is the support so good, that it can verify its placement? I can't think of somebody else than Excadrill, but yeah. I guess I'm missing the point anyway.

Note: Sorry for my english, I'm not new here, but nevertheless, I'm from germany.

Thanks for your answers.

I honestly dont know a whole lot about Gliscor, but what I know is that with a Toxic Orb, it has very reliable recovery and can spread Toxic's and Knock Offs very well. It also kinda stops Gengar, a huge threat for Stall, with its SpDef set. Its also a decent defensive wall.

Before i write about hippo, Usage =/= Viability, unless this pokemon is losing usage cause its outclassed. Obviously hippo isnt outclassed at all. Its basically a more Defensively bulky version of TTar with a better typing. Not all pokemon need to have offensive pressure to be good, Hippo is a great Sand Streamer and is a great switchin to Landorus, Tflame, Terrakion, etc. and stops birdspam mildly well. It also fares amazing against Electric types, even with HP Ice. It also has access to Toxic, Roar, Ice Fang, Slack Off (recovery=good) and of course, EdgeQuake.

 

[56k]

The chansey calcs just show that a set with simply airslash/np/healbell/roost will inevitably beat chansey (and sableye which is the main job). You only need 2 flinches in a row to kill chansey lol. Teams that don't have problems with chansey can go with the fairy/fighting/fire/psychic coverage options or other stuff like baton pass and defog (and interestingly a max speed toge can defog and ohko bisharp without dying to sucker punch or pursuit, avoiding all sorts of 50/50 problems that latis have). This is on top of obvious support options like twave.

Clefable does most things better than togekiss which is why it was being argued for S while togekiss is only B and probably won't change much. The reason it's still solid though is because it can get around many of it's counters with paraflinching, it has good moves for hitting steels with, it has better stats and equally useful typing, and has support options like baton pass or defog that clef can't do it all.

Obviously togekiss can't fill all of those roles at once and ends up being fairly specialized after picking your 4 moves. For example, if you want roost and nasty plot, that only leaves 2 moves left and you have to decide which pokemon are going to counter you. Air slash + aura sphere would make it quite a formidable late game booster. Baton pass is nice to have as well but only 1 attacking move leaves you open to many things.

On the other hand, maybe you want a defogger that beats both sableye and bisharp. Then you'll need dazzle/aurasphere/defog/roost and you've lost your ability to boost up or spread paralysis.

Paraflinching cleric? Air slash / twave / heal bell / roost. But now you can't really beat a +1 sableye, but against offensive teams you can slow down their sweepers and create openings for a teammate. Clefable is probably just a better choice here.

Horrible 4mss keeps togekiss from doing everything it wants to do but it can fill in a specialized role very well, and does so with it's good bulk, recovery, nice spatk, and having just so *many* possible niches to fill. You never know what your opponent is going to be running. You might switch in metagross and eat a fire blast or twave. You might switch in landorus-i to sludgewave it while it BPs out for momentum. Maybe you switch in chansey but it starts NPing and becoming dangerous.

I'm speaking mainly from the perspective of someone who usually plays stall and togekiss is just a horrible mon to face, which is why it seems so strange to want to lower it's viability ranking. But if offensive players pretty much have consensus that it's useless against HO and largely outclassed by clef and other fairies then I wouldn't object to changing it's ranking I guess.

 

[theV8man]

Ok, first off, no one in their right minds would stay into a goddamn Toge with Sableye. Secondly, you aint getting 3 NP's off for free in any playstyle (Stall can use status against you, balance can fuck you up upside down, right side up, and sideways, HO can use pure strength to kill you, and etc.) and thirdly, barely 2HKOing Eviolite Chansey with a 2x +6 boost is pathetic. Please, dont use it as a NP setter unless you wanna be that person who uses mediocre moves and shit on someone. Also good luck outspeeding anything HO and good luck doing anything to Stall besides taking out Celebi.

Also, factoring in hax to win is not only unreliable, but unreliable. Did I say it was unreliable? No one is gonna sit there and do nothing about you setting up NP's, Chansey is just gonna come in and woop your ass on the first NP lol. Toge is a joke with NP. If you wanna use NP on anything: Celebi, Thundurus I, That obvious mon im forgetting, etc. dont use it on goddamn Toge. Its not meant to be a setup sweeper. Its meant to be a cleric, a ParaFlincher, a defogger, a BP'er, fuck, even offensive scarf variants, but not Offensive NP.

Its movepool is horrible, I dont know what you are saying. Its strongest reliable move (Fire Blast) isnt even Stab. That bulk is decent, however this is overlooked by its 5 semi common weaknesses. Flying type is by far not the best offensive type. The only reason there is bird spam is because some pokemon have other coverages to hit other types.

I'm not arguing about putting Toge to anywhere, I'm just pointing out that you oversell Togekiss way more than it is. IMO just keep it where it is, it really hasnt gained a whole shitload.



I honestly dont know a whole lot about Gliscor, but what I know is that with a Toxic Orb, it has very reliable recovery and can spread Toxic's and Knock Offs very well. It also kinda stops Gengar, a huge threat for Stall, with its SpDef set. Its also a decent defensive wall.

Before i write about hippo, Usage =/= Viability, unless this pokemon is losing usage cause its outclassed. Obviously hippo isnt outclassed at all. Its basically a more Defensively bulky version of TTar with a better typing. Not all pokemon need to have offensive pressure to be good, Hippo is a great Sand Streamer and is a great switchin to Landorus, Tflame, Terrakion, etc. and stops birdspam mildly well. It also fares amazing against Electric types, even with HP Ice. It also has access to Toxic, Roar, Ice Fang, Slack Off (recovery=good) and of course, EdgeQuake.

Togekiss' NP set is actually legit because of its stallbreaking ability. You can run Heal Bell/Roost to have an easier time setting up vs. stall, and unlike Clefable/Celebi you can actually do something against Chansey. That being said you're underestimating Togekiss's movepool, which is more expansive than pretty much any other Fairy Type Pokemon. I'm not saying Togekiss should move up or anything but take this into consideration. That being said, why you'd use Togekiss as a stallbreaker over Manaphy or something is beyond me unless for whatever reason you specifically need it.

 

[Umirozen]

replies are in bold

Its movepool is horrible, I dont know what you are saying. Its strongest reliable move (Fire Blast) isnt even Stab. That bulk is decent, however this is overlooked by its 5 semi common weaknesses. Flying type is by far not the best offensive type. The only reason there is bird spam is because some pokemon have other coverages to hit other types.

really? horrible? toge's like the only fairy that has a reliable fighting coverage in ou, which is aura sphere. Unless you prefer Focus Blast, which is less reliable because of its accuracy . And that's what Nasty Plot is for, to boost these so called "mediocre" moves that you are saying and make it more threatening.

I'm not arguing about putting Toge to anywhere, I'm just pointing out that you oversell Togekiss way more than it is. IMO just keep it where it is, it really hasnt gained a whole shitload.

wat? he is just defending why toge is a solid B rank which is Toge's current rank and he is just stating what Togekiss can do despite being outclassed by Clefable. I think you are underselling toge's capabilities, I can even see it in a higher rank but Stealth Rock exists so it's stuck in B rank.

Horrible 4mss keeps togekiss from doing everything it wants to do but it can fill in a specialized role very well, and does so with it's good bulk, recovery, nice spatk, and having just so *many* possible niches to fill. You never know what your opponent is going to be running. You might switch in metagross and eat a fire blast or twave. You might switch in landorus-i to sludgewave it while it BPs out for momentum. Maybe you switch in chansey but it starts NPing and becoming dangerous.

imo, toge doesnt have a 4mss. It only needs Air Slash and Roost and the other 2 slots defines what you want toge to be for your team. NastyPlot and heall bell if you want it to stall break or replace heal bell with baton pass to pass off its boosts.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I thought he was B-.

Either way, Its movepool still isnt that amazing imo. Just cause Toge has Fighting coverage (so does Clef btw) doesnt mean its amazing off the bat.

Its NP set may be best against Stall, but even stall has answers. I find it to be meh at most, due to its speed stat, but eh. Heal Bell is nice but limits your movepool, and Roost would be nicer so it can actually restore health. Also, 8 PP...

I definitely do agree with V8, however.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Togekiss has a pair of decent STAB moves in Dazzling Gleam and Air Slash, it has a couple of solid coverage moves in Aura Sphere and Fire Blast/Flamethrower (and even stuff like Grass Knot, Psyshock, and Shadow Ball, if you ever wanted to use them for some reason), it can heal status from itself and its teammates with Heal Bell, it has a great recovery move in Roost, it can boost up with Nasty Plot to punish defensive teams, it has Baton Pass to pass those boosts to a teammate whenever needed, it can offer paralysis support with Thunder Wave, and it can even support with Defog if you really need it to. That's not even including moves like Reflect, Light Screen, Wish, and Yawn that are a part of Togekiss's expansive movepool, even if they aren't great choices on Togekiss itself. What more could you actually want? I mean, there's a lot of criticisms you could make about Togekiss, but saying that its movepool is bad is not one of them.

 

[Jukain]

Celebi -> A

Celebi is a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame with excellent bulk and a ton of supportive utility. With a physically defensive EV spread, it's an excellent answer to Pokemon like Keldeo, Landorus-I, Azumarill, non-SD Excadrill, Thundurus, and Mega Lopunny while even tanking hits from Mega Metagross, with the potential to damage it pretty nicely with Earth Power or cripple it with Thunder Wave. Although the specially defensive version doesn't handle Azumarill or Mega Lopunny quite as effectively and has more difficulty playing around the likes of Bisharp and Tyranitar, it is a great answer to Mega Diancie. A mixed spread can handle all of Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Landorus-I, and Keldeo at the same time, which is really impressive. Another useful trait is that it does quite well against rain teams, with the specially defensive set being an effective counter to Specs Kingdra and checking Mega Swampert/Kabutops, and counters Mega Slowbro with Nasty Plot or Perish Song. What's more important than all this, though, is how many options to fit and support its team that Celebi has. Celebi can effectively run all of SubPass, NastyPass, SD Pass, NP + 2 attacks, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish...it provides a ton of support for bulky offense and balanced teams that is extremely useful. I think Celebi is close to if not on par with Ferrothorn in viability at this point, which is kind of a bold statement but I think the gap in viability is closing because how much Celebi handles and the utility it has in the current metagame.

Landorus-T -> A+

I was one of the original persons to push for this to go to S Rank, but as the metagame is developing it's becoming more and more clear that it's not really the dominant, catch-all Pokemon it was in XY. The main issue is that, while it can revenge kill a bunch of the new threats such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, and Mega Beedrill, these Pokemon prevent it from gaining momentum as easily as before. The reason for this is that all of these Pokemon don't mind U-turn and thus force Landorus-T into consistent mindgames because Earthquake = instant momentum loss in many cases. Protect Mega Diancie and Mega Beedrill amplify this issue by scouting Landorus-T and actually punishing U-turn, meaning the Landorus-T user is forced to go for Earthquake every time and double switch out, which isn't exactly a great situation. Both Scarf and defensive Landorus-T are typically used as a 'catch-all' for teams, which results in having to be played carefully and conservatively. Landorus-T is versatile as hell, being an extremely strong offensive SR user with Earth Plate and sweeping potential with Double Dance, SubSD, and RP + 3 attacks (Knock Off), but all of these sets only fit onto a select amount of teams due to the sheer utility of Landorus-T's main sets. The sweeping sets are good and can be effective, but they are often difficult to set up and are rather matchup-dependent in how effective they are, at least from my experiences using them and facing them, as it's very easy to get damage on them to the point where something like your own Landorus-T or priority can finish them off. They often require both the SD and Speed boosts to sweep offense, which can be problematic to obtain; that isn't to say they can't be devastating at times, but I don't think they make Landorus-T an S Rank Pokemon. It's also very hard to consider Landorus-T on the level of, say, Mega Metagross or Mega Sableye. It just doesn't provide the same amount of pressure, the same amount of game-winning potential. It's just a good utility check to a bunch of popular Pokemon and that doesn't cut it with those two titans sitting up in S Rank.

 

[Venoxio]

Mega Lopunny -> A+

Mega Lopunny is GOOD, but I don't think it's good enough to be S Rank. A+ probably, but not S. It has many checks, mostly fairies and intimidaters. Examples are:
Gyarados
Clefable
Mega Altaria (cant switch in)
Azumarill
Mega Gallade
Talonflame

These are probably the best checks to Mega Lopunny, but there are more. Scrappy is good, though even with it things like Sash Gengar or Sableye could take a hit and cripple it/kill it. Unless fairies stop being so good in OU, i think that this mega will be A+ or A rank soon.

 

[Alfalfa]

Mega Lopunny -> A+

Mega Lopunny is GOOD, but I don't think it's good enough to be S Rank. A+ probably, but not S. It has many checks, mostly fairies and intimidaters. Examples are:
Gyarados
Clefable
Mega Altaria (cant switch in)
Azumarill
Mega Gallade (the ultimate counter)
Talonflame

These are probably the best checks to Mega Lopunny, but there are more. Scrappy is good, though even with it things like Sash Gengar or Sableye could take a hit and cripple it/kill it. Unless fairies stop being so good in OU, i think that this mega will be A+ or A rank soon.

Since when is Sash Gengar ever a thing? Life Orb Gengar is probably the most common Gengar set around. Also, Mega Sableye is S Rank, yet it is also weak to Fairy Types, and it is not like Mega Lopunny is stopped cold by every single Fairy Type that is viable in OU. Sure, it has some checks, but you are overspinning Mega Lopunny's cons and not considering the positives it brings to the table. I leave no comment on whether or not it should or should not drop, but the argument you are using is overspinning its negatives.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Mega Lopunny -> A+

Mega Lopunny is GOOD, but I don't think it's good enough to be S Rank. A+ probably, but not S. It has many checks, mostly fairies and intimidaters. Examples are:
Gyarados
Clefable
Mega Altaria (cant switch in)
Azumarill
Mega Gallade (the ultimate counter)
Talonflame

These are probably the best checks to Mega Lopunny, but there are more. Scrappy is good, though even with it things like Sash Gengar or Sableye could take a hit and cripple it/kill it. Unless fairies stop being so good in OU, i think that this mega will be A+ or A rank soon.

It has to run it's 2 STABs and then it can choose to run between Fake Out, Ice Punch, Sub, PuP, Encore, BP, if you switch in as it subs and you expect a fake out you might well have a problem.

I think Mega Lopunny is in a weird spot as it is (should Lando-T drop to A+) clearly the weakest S rank, but it's better than all A+ ranks, I think it should stay in S as it's really versatile and has excellent matchups vs entire playstyles (HO/Offense with Fake Out+Ice Punch and Stall with Sub+Pup/Encore) you basically have to somehow scout it before you can really try to play around it.

As for Mega Gallade being 'the ultimate counter':

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 180-213 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And no one half decent is gonna Fake Out when the opponent has a Gallade if you meant Steadfast switch in on Fake Out...

 

[astroboy]

Mega Gallade (the ultimate counter)

i cant tell if this is serious or not

Also, can we drop Mienshao to D Rank or even unrank it? Metagame shifts in ORAS have rendered it almost completely unusable, with Mega Slowbro and Sableye being a complete thorn in the side, as well as the introduction of Mega Lopunny, which almost completely outclasses Mienshao. Sure, it does not take up a Mega Slot and hits harder than Mega Lopunny, but considering that Mega Lopunny is one of the better Megas in OU, it really is not that difficult to adjust your team to make room for M-Lopunny.

i generally agree with mienshao moving down, but it does have a niche in the subpass set that can warrant its use over lopunny.
mienshao is a better subpasser, due to regenerator giving it the ability to make up more health than it lost after baton pass, while also not taking up a mega slot and hitting noticably harder
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 154-183 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 188-224 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
i mean, i prefer using mega lopunny ofc, but i dont think it should be unranked so
supporting mienshao to d

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Hey just thought I should mention that the toxicroak link goes to the sylveon analysis.

Also I think toxicroak should move up to B. Toxicroak has a few great characteristics that make him B material. First off Toxicroak checks both azumaril and keldeo two mons that have seen a recent rise in usage. Toxicroak can switch into these mons and scare them out, this leads to possible setup opportunities or just beating the mon out in a 1v1. Toxi with jolly nature also outspeeds some very key threats such as mega gyara, mega altaria, bisharp, etc. Toxi has a chance to OHKO the bulkiest mega altaria set, ohkos bisharp, and does a significant amount to mega gyara to the point where with a little prior damage it kills. Toxi can also setup free subs on mons like rotom or mew which is pretty cool and can do major damage to ferro and tran. Croak also has a very good chance of killing latios with a sucker after rocks. Someone could also choose to run ice punch for landos and gliscor but I wouldn't cosign on it. With an adamant nature Croak ensures so many more kills so adamant croak can work but I feel his jolly set makes him a check to more mons. I think overall croak has quite a few skills that he does a decent job at all packed into one which I think is enough to push him into B. Below I will include calcs relative to what I have said and calcs on mons that were not mentioned above but are just useful to know.

Croak Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Mega Altaria: 322-382 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 257-304 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 237-281 (79.2 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 296-351 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 265-315 (68.8 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 187-221 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 216-255 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[asterat]

I have tried Toxicroak a bit, and while it's weird, he's actually super cool. His movepool is massive: Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Swords Dance, Vacuum Wave, Sludge Bomb, Dark Pulse, and Focus Blast. I've been using a physical set because I feel it's flatly better than a special set, and it's actually quite good. Also, his typing is pretty good. Water moves are nothing, and he also sports useful resists to fighting and rock. I actually have been using him on a rain team because he checks Keldeo pretty excellently with a bit of HP investment and Dry Skin in play. He's a serious contender for rain teams, and one of the best Keldeo checks they can muster. Also, he's an amazing Azumarill check- not a counter because of play rough, but a check because he is immune to Aqua Jet after a Belly Drum, or even without belly drum. The list of things he can do goes on: he checks non EQ Gyarados with ease, OHKOes Latios after Stealth Rock with Sucker Punch, and checks Bisharp decently with a resistance to Sucker Punch. I think he's pretty awesome and should rise to B. Not the perfect mon, but pretty strong and the mvp of a lot of games in the right kind of team. Use him on rain!!

 

[Grim]

I think Toxicroak is fine in B-. Although its typing + Water immunity makes it seem like a good answer to stuff like Keldeo, Terrakion, Heracross, Mega Gyarados, and rain offense but its stats really hold it back. It takes insane damage from even resisted hits if they're STAB. For example, it gets 2HKOed by Terrakion's Close Combat and Keldeo's Choice Specs Secret Sword, which is ridiculous. Landorus-T being the most popular pokemon in the tier is also a huge pain for Toxicroak, as it can switch in freely unless you run Ice Punch, which Toxicroak really has no room for. It's slightly more bulky in the rain due to passive recovery and HP investment also helps checking the stuff Toxicroak's typing and ability suggest it can check, but you kind of want the speed and attack to be able to decently take on Bisharp, Heatran, Heracross, etc. I really don't see Toxicroak in the same rank as Victini, Scizor, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel which are all Pokemon I see as very good choices for a team.

 

[Canned Bread]

I nominated Toxicroak for B a while ago, and I still stand by it. With just three moves alone, he can hit every Pokemon in the game bar other Toxicroak at least neutrally (Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Sucker Punch); with a SD he can happily OHKO/2HKO huge parts of the meta. He can also get the chance to actually set one (literally only one) up too, thanks to his resistances. Scald immunity is a huge positive and Sucker Punch is great priority to have in this meta.
However, he can't switch in on anything at all and Talonflame is still a thing, which is what is stopping him from going any higher than B. He isn't taking many hits because his bulk is lacklustre and having to rely on Sucker Punch to trump base 110s is shaky at best. And of course losing to Lando-t is not doing it any favours at all. He's just difficult to justify using in many cases, not least because he is just so risky to use. He is the very definition of do or die.
Toxicroak functions nicely in Rain, but I've used him as a catch-all wallbreaker. He never lasts long, but that's sort of the point: he makes one hell of a mess that's difficult to play around thanks to it's coverage, and by the time it's done it has usually made your life easier. It can't smash absolutely everything, but what can?
Give him some slow VoltTurn support, Stealth Rock support, Hazard removal and maybe a Wishpasser, Toxicroak can and will punch holes in the opposite team. I personally think he is of a similar standard to Mon like Omastar, Suicune, Mega Houndoom, Weavile and maybe even Conk, he's just a bit more awkward to use. He only just scrapes B standard, but he is B standard nonetheless.

 

[BlueLobster]

MegaBee: B+ ->B

Not aguing it's bad here, but it just seems way too YOLO, weak and uneffective for a mega IMO. Being in the same rank as Chansey and Breloom is way too high for it, mostly becuase it limits your mega slot. It also has awful STAB to abuse it's ability. It almost has to run protect tocget going, killing the momentum it is used for. If it lacks protect, it's almost impossible to get going V HO, the playstyle it weakens most due to it's speed tier, and all it can get mega'd on is defensive 'mons, who it barely touches. It has to choose between drill run so it hits Heatran and other steels, knock off for it's power and all round utility because of the difficulty in negaing it. Kinda like Diancie, but with a lower reward. M.Manetric is a more reliable VolTurn mega with better coverage. Being in Chansey's tier, who is huge for stall, seems way too high for something with far less influence and that takes up the mega, especially with how many S/A+ rank mmegas who are dominating the tier rn.

 

[theV8man]

I originally nominated Toxicroak to B- before, but I'm not sure if it can be considered a B ranking. It's not very splash-able; it will be pretty useless on some teams and a godsend for certain other teams. In my experience, it works especially well on sand teams, which tend to get recked by the exact Pokemon that Toxicroak checks (Azumarill, Keldeo, Bisharp, Breloom, Rain in general). Besides its ability to check certain high-level threats, there many teams that get demolished by 2+ Gunk Shot, which easily takes out several defensive threats after SR. As much as I love the frog, as Canned Bread said it's not really on the level of Omastar or Conkeldurr... I say it stays in B- for now.

Also Thisbemyalt I recommend running Jolly to check more stuff, in particular Adamant Excadrill and Kyurem-B.

 

[56k]

It's so easy to find a good water type, or a dragon type, or a fairy type for your team. Absolutely massive amount of choices with powerful STABs. And it's so easy to find a good steel type, or a good ground type. Wide selection of bulky pokemons with all kinds of defensive/support move options.

But finding a good poison type that actually competes in OU? Something that ohkos clefable and also checks +6 azumarills? And hopefully doesn't just outright die to every psychic type? Few and far between: poison types just tend to have awful BSTs and besides mega-venu they're always lacking in some critical stat. For god's sake LO scolipede (100 atk) doesn't even ohko clefable (73 defense) with it's STAB poison jab.

Gengar, Venusaur, Tentacruel, Beedrill, and Lando-I are the only good users of poison moves in the tier (amoongus isn't killing any fairy any time soon). Toxicroak being able to carve a niche for itself is unsurprising considering two of those poison types are only useful if mega'd leaving only 3 truly decent poison types.

Toxicroak doesn't escape the poison low BST curse however. WTF is the point of resisting fighting if fighting moves just 2hko you anyway?

Oh well, water immunity more than makes up for it. Physical attacker immune to scald is a huge plus and easily pairs up with teammates that might have water weaknesses. Seems like a really cool mon overall and with B rank full of hipster stuff like sharpedo and mandibuzz, toxicroak might fit in there as B/B- if more people can offer their experiences on using it.

 

[Mur]

Gliscor to A+: This guy has not been seeing much discussion so I guess I should get the ball rolling. I'd say gliscor has gotten a lot better with gren gone and the return of it's favored playstyle balance. Gliscor also fits on these teams very easily due to how many roles it can provide for it's team in just one slot. Between defensive, Spdef, SD/agility pass, stallbreaker, and Stealth rock pivot sets it's no wonder gliscor has been making a lot of appearances in SPL. Gliscor provides a much needed counter to many common threats to balance teams most notably gengar who otherwise rips through these teams defensive backbones effortlessly leaving holes to be exploited by the threatening sweepers of the tier. It should also be noted that the SD set that is growing in popularity can break Msab easily and also threatens some balance/bulky offense teams as well. So imo gliscor is enough of an influence in the meta to go back up to A+.

Omastar to B+: I already made a post on lord helix and why he should move up earlier but since it was right before the update I'l do a quick summary so that it can be a part of this one. Omastar is the premier wallbreaker of rain teams right now as it has obscene power with the standard specs set. Most of the time you don't even need to click hydro because scald still 2hkos a ton of mons while spreading burns to others. Not even chansey wants to switch in because after omastar knocks off its eviolite it gets 2hko'd by both omastar and kingdra. The amazing synergy between kingdra and omastar is also unrivaled by any of the other SS abusers right now because of how similar their checks and counters are. This fact alone should warrant a rise because it does not make too much sense to have oma lower than kabu when it makes a better, more consistent kingdra partner on rain cores.
tl;dr omastar makes perfect synergy with kingdra and blasts holes through the opposition so kingdra or another mon can easily clean up.

 

[AD impish john]

I'm not a pro so you can judge:

Mega Loppuny=A+ Reason: 1. Mega Metagross can live + zen headbutt. 2. Can't take a hit well (Do the calcs yourself)
Lando-t=A+ Reason: 1. People are making counters: Rotom, keldeo(scarf with lando is scarfed), lando-t (LOL), mega slowbruh(Need more)
Keldeo=A+ Reason: Its fine where it is I can name some pokemon that can counter it.
Zygarde=D Reason: Garchomp does the job better. Like really name 1 reason this thing is usefull!
Mega-Gardevoir=A- or B+ Reason: It doesn't do well against the new ORAS megas.

Well thats all I would change.

 

[Roylund]

I'm not a pro so you can judge:

Mega Loppuny=A+ Reason: 1. Mega Metagross can live + zen headbutt. 2. Can't take a hit well (Do the calcs yourself)
Lando-t=A+ Reason: 1. People are making counters: Rotom, keldeo(scarf with lando is scarfed), lando-t (LOL), mega slowbruh(Need more)
Keldeo=A+ Reason: Its fine where it is I can name some pokemon that can counter it.
Zygarde=D Reason: Garchomp does the job better. Like really name 1 reason this thing is usefull!
Mega-Gardevoir=A- or B+ Reason: It doesn't do well against the new ORAS megas.

Well thats all I would change.

AM Edit: Removed obnoxious bold.

I heard you were talking shit about my waifu.

That aside, I disagree with the ranks you gave Mega Loppuny and Mega Gardevoir.

Mega Lopunny has fantastic matchups vs Stall or Hyper Offense depending on its set while still pulling its weight against balance. It hits hard, it hits fast, and has a wide range of moves to choose from. Power up Punch? We boost that. Encore? We clap that. Healing Wish? We commit suicide so our love can transcend the heavens, reach another teammate, and have him annihilate the enemy team from full health. It's just too versatile, powerful, and superb or effective against so many teams that I can't see it anywhere other than S.

Mega Gardevoir is a great Pokemon for 2 reasons:

• It kills Stall's family and makes it watch
• If it comes in get ready to get AM Edit: pleasantly destroyed

Admittedly, coming in with Mega Garde is hard because of her middling bulk on the Defensive side but if she does so, something is going to get decimated. Hyper Voice blows a hole in anything that doesn't resist it (except Chansey), Focus Blast and Psyshock round up the coverage and let you decimate switch-ins. The last option can go to Will-o-Wisp to bait a physical attacker in and burn it or Taunt to mess with Stall more. Trace is great to copy stuff like Intimidate or Swift Swim or Magic Bounce. I could see her dropping to A but not A- or lower.

Oh, and, why do people say Garde beats Chansey? If Chansey goes for Seismic Toss right off the bat, Garde can't do anything about that.

 

[ErasthamusGames]

I'm not a pro so you can judge:

Mega Loppuny=A+ Reason: 1. Mega Metagross can live + zen headbutt. 2. Can't take a hit well (Do the calcs yourself)
Lando-t=A+ Reason: 1. People are making counters: Rotom, keldeo(scarf with lando is scarfed), lando-t (LOL), mega slowbruh(Need more)
Keldeo=A+ Reason: Its fine where it is I can name some pokemon that can counter it.
Zygarde=D Reason: Garchomp does the job better. Like really name 1 reason this thing is usefull!
Mega-Gardevoir=A- or B+ Reason: It doesn't do well against the new ORAS megas.

Well thats all I would change.

I don't think you quite understand the nature of the arguments to have the mons you addressed where they are. Mega Lopunny is S because it dishes out extremely good damage, has a great support movepool, and can run a multitude of sets extremely well. Just because it's frail doesn't mean it should drop. Your argument regarding Mega Metagross quite literally applies to every single mon in the meta. That's where teambuilding comes in. Any competent enough player could identify the checks and counters and teambuild accordingly to address them. Lando-T is S basically because of the same reason as Mega Lop, though not as versatile. It can run a great defensive set, a scarf set, an Earth Plate set, a HP Ice Lure set, or even a sub-optimal but useable LO set. More often than not you don't lose anything by throwing one on a team, and again, basic teambuilding addresses its checks and counters. Keldeo should be S rank because it can easily break through its checks and counters depending on the set its running. Zygarde and Garchomp are two completely different mons that do two completely different things. Zygarde is designed to either shuffle teams with Dragon Tail, or sweep with E-Speed + Outrage. Both sets rely on its bulk to set up a Sub and then Coil for the win. Garchomp is a sweeper of a different vein, one not designed to take hits, but to give them out like Mother Teresa giving to the poor. Sure, it may be able to take a neutral hit or two, but nothing compared to the bulk of Garde. In regards to Mega Gardevoir I can see why it will drop to A-, but it's ability to effectively check Mega Sableye and stall in general should place it no lower than A-.