Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Alfalfa]

This is my first post so apologies in advance, I just wanted to talk about Mhera.

A- --> A- Imo

The main arguments against this are things such as the fact that it is destroyed by sableye, is slow and generally isn't favoured in a meta where base 110 speed is seen as a benchmark of sorts. It is also completely destroyed by almost all talonflame variants and Maltaria in particular. However it still functions as an amazing threat to stall and can seriously threaten teams which rely on specific leads such as sash breloom (and sash mamo), which is slower if you run jolly with 216 investment, albeit I prefer to run. It also allows you to outspeed adamant Mgyara and slower mew/manaphy and heatran variants.

This combined with its monstrous 185 attack stat actually make it a very competent threat to almost all defensive pokemon aside from gliscor and Defensive lando-t.

A few calcs

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-200 (54.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, so provided you get some form of initial damage you can deal with sableye, or

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 185-225 (60.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 320-380 (122.6 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 1024-1212 (376.4 - 445.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, best bisharp can do is Iron head (41-48%), and it can't outspeed jolly even if 252

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 250-310 (63.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast/Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- approx. 61.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pre mega hera also outspeeds metagross so 252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-255 (69.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Albeit Zen headbutt still OHKO's you but You will have heavily crippled a threat)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 450-540 (111.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 360-430 (98.6 - 117.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 170-210 (44.7 - 55.2%) -- approx. 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I know a lot of these are quite cherrypicked but it shows just how much of the pokemon in the stall playstyle Mhera can 2HKO reasonably consistently

Of course I am not saying Mhera should be A/A+ rank or anything, I just haven't seen anybody argue for It and being a player who has built a team around Mhera (and gotten to 1750+ with it) I feel it would be bad not to offer a different perspective.

Defensive Landorus-T usually lacks the capabilities to threaten Mega Heracross, as Toxic is pretty much non-existent on it, unlike in late XY.

These cherry-picked calcs really do not solidify your argument. Mega Heracross still has to deal with Gliscor and Unaware Clefable, and while it threatens a lot of Pokemon seen on stall, it really suffers from a large amount of opportunity cost and mediocre speed that really weigh it down. You seriously cannot say Mega Heracross is on par with Celebi, Starmie, and Jirachi, which usually are much more flexible than Mega Heracross and not be a sitting duck to be forced out by any form of offensive pressure. Sure, Mega Hera might be comparable to Mamoswine and Terrakion, but I really do not think that Mega Heracross' pros outweigh its cons enough to be A- Rank.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

This is my first post so apologies in advance, I just wanted to talk about Mhera.

A- --> A- Imo

The main arguments against this are things such as the fact that it is destroyed by sableye, is slow and generally isn't favoured in a meta where base 110 speed is seen as a benchmark of sorts. It is also completely destroyed by almost all talonflame variants and Maltaria in particular. However it still functions as an amazing threat to stall and can seriously threaten teams which rely on specific leads such as sash breloom (and sash mamo), which is slower if you run jolly with 216 investment, albeit I prefer to run. It also allows you to outspeed adamant Mgyara and slower mew/manaphy and heatran variants.

This combined with its monstrous 185 attack stat actually make it a very competent threat to almost all defensive pokemon aside from gliscor and Defensive lando-t.

A few calcs

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 165-200 (54.2 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, so provided you get some form of initial damage you can deal with sableye, or

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 185-225 (60.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 320-380 (122.6 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 1024-1212 (376.4 - 445.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, best bisharp can do is Iron head (41-48%), and it can't outspeed jolly even if 252

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 250-310 (63.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast/Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- approx. 61.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pre mega hera also outspeeds metagross so 252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-255 (69.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Albeit Zen headbutt still OHKO's you but You will have heavily crippled a threat)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 320-380 (83.3 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 450-540 (111.3 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 360-430 (98.6 - 117.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 170-210 (44.7 - 55.2%) -- approx. 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I know a lot of these are quite cherrypicked but it shows just how much of the pokemon in the stall playstyle Mhera can 2HKO reasonably consistently

Of course I am not saying Mhera should be A/A+ rank or anything, I just haven't seen anybody argue for It and being a player who has built a team around Mhera (and gotten to 1750+ with it) I feel it would be bad not to offer a different perspective.

Just a few quick nitpicks:
1. Welcome to smogon fren :]
2. Please hide calcs with the command [.hide=title] ofc without the . this isnt required but its just kind of courtesy when using a high amount of calcs


Argument: So your calcs are very specific mons that woul rarely stay or switch into hera like manaphy or they would burn you aka mew so these calcs are kinda irrelevant, for example you can't really deal with mega sable as I believe the standard set runs will o and recover so you lose in a 1v1. The problem with hera is that the meta is really against him as of late especially with the rise of much better megas which means unless you need hera specifically you tend to be better off with a different mega for instance mega gallade may be weaker but has a much better movepool, speed, and setup. Hera unfortunately loses to some of the best and most common mons as of late such as talon, mega meta, mega altaria, etc. While the mons he really crushes are kind of falling out of popularity. I think hera has a lot of potential and he really would be a top mon in B+ however with the way the meta is now he is just not a good use of a mega slot.
tldr: Mega hera gets beat by many common mons and is not preferable to other megas
Edit: Sorry misread but upon writing this I think hera actually might be B+ on the fence about this but I changed my argument to fit this opinion change, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Karxrida]

Defensive Landorus-T usually lacks the capabilities to threaten Mega Heracross, as Toxic is pretty much non-existent on it, unlike in late XY.

These cherry-picked calcs really do not solidify your argument. Mega Heracross still has to deal with Gliscor and Unaware Clefable, and while it threatens a lot of Pokemon seen on stall, it really suffers from a large amount of opportunity cost and mediocre speed that really weigh it down. You seriously cannot say Mega Heracross is on par with Celebi, Starmie, and Jirachi, which usually are much more flexible than Mega Heracross and not be a sitting duck to be forced out by any form of offensive pressure. Sure, Mega Hera might be comparable to Mamoswine and Terrakion, but I really do not think that Mega Heracross' pros outweigh its cons enough to be A- Rank.

Defensive Lando-T can U-turn out to something that can deal with a -1 Attack Mega Heracross (especially after a CC defense drop) or just wear it down since Mega Heracross can't really touch it.

Don't really have an opinion on Mega Hera myself, just wanted to point that out.

 

[Kurona]

Just a few quick nitpicks:
1. Welcome to smogon fren :]
2. Please hide calcs with the command [.hide=title] ofc without the . this isnt required but its just kind of courtesy when using a high amount of calcs
3. You suggest " A- --> A- Imo" these are the same but I assume you mean a rank up to A so I will argue against that please correct me if I am wrong

Argument: So your calcs are very specific mons that woul rarely stay or switch into hera like manaphy or they would burn you aka mew so these calcs are kinda irrelevant, for example you can't really deal with mega sable as I believe the standard set runs will o and recover so you lose in a 1v1. The problem with hera is that the meta is really against him as of late especially with the rise of much better megas which means unless you need hera specifically you tend to be better off with a different mega for instance mega gallade may be weaker but has a much better movepool, speed, and setup. Hera unfortunately loses to some of the best and most common mons as of late such as talon, mega meta, mega altaria, etc. While the mons he really crushes are kind of falling out of popularity. I think hera has a lot of potential and he really fits nicely in A- however with the way the meta is now he is just not a good use of a mega slot.
tldr: Mega hera gets beat by many common mons and is not preferable to other megas

No, he said A- --> A- in response to everyone talking about it going to B+. He done this to represent his idea that it shouldn't move.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

No, he said A- --> A- in response to everyone talking about it going to B+. He done this to represent his idea that it shouldn't move.

I realized after writing and edited it frankly had an opinion change as I wrote it sorry about that I hadn't seen talk of it being moved down so I was confused

 

[Dark T]

I think Talonflame should be S rank.

It is something every player needs to consider when building their teams. It is also unpredictable in being able to run a Revenge Killer, Stall-breaker, Sword Dancer, or Bulk Up set.

Pros:
- Priority Brave Bird
- 126 Base Speed
- Immune to Will-O-Wisp
- Fast U-turns
- Gets priority recovery in Roost
- Has boosting moves like Bulk Up and Swords Dance
- Has utility moves like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and priority Tailwind

Cons:
- 4x weak to Stealth Rocks
- Only has 81 Base Attack
- Relatively frail (78, 71, 69 defenses)
- Gets worn down easily by recoil

Revenge Killer:

A+

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 355-418 (132.4 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 283-334 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 512-606 (158.5 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 640-760 (186.5 - 221.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Plus its Sword Dance set packs even more of a punch, and its Bulk Up set allows it to beat Mega Sableye.

 

[Wargreymon]

I think Talonflame should be S rank.

It is something every player needs to consider when building their teams. It is also unpredictable in being able to run a Revenge Killer, Stall-breaker, Sword Dancer, or Bulk Up set.

Pros:
- Priority Brave Bird
- 126 Base Speed
- Immune to Will-O-Wisp
- Fast U-turns
- Gets priority recovery in Roost
- Has boosting moves like Bulk Up and Swords Dance
- Has utility moves like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and priority Tailwind

Cons:
- 4x weak to Stealth Rocks
- Only has 81 Base Attack
- Relatively frail (78, 71, 69 defenses)
- Gets worn down easily by recoil

Revenge Killer:

A+

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 355-418 (132.4 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 283-334 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 512-606 (158.5 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 640-760 (186.5 - 221.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Plus its Sword Dance set packs even more of a punch, and its Bulk Up set allows it to beat Mega Sableye.

Talonflame has way too many issues to be S rank. Tbh you listed most of them anyway in your cons section. 4x weakness to SR is absolutely huge, especially when most if not all of your main attacking moves are heavy on the recoil. On top of that pretty much all teams carry extremely common birdspam checks like Rotom-w, Heatran, and Tyranitar (T-tar doesn't like U-turns but it still cockblocks any sweep attempts). It's a fantastic pokemon and arguably the best revenge killer in the tier, that's why it's where it is in the rankings, but its weaknesses are way too prominent and exploitable to allow it to be S rank.

 

[ohgeedubs]

I think Talonflame should be S rank.

It is something every player needs to consider when building their teams. It is also unpredictable in being able to run a Revenge Killer, Stall-breaker, Sword Dancer, or Bulk Up set.

Pros:
- Priority Brave Bird
- 126 Base Speed
- Immune to Will-O-Wisp
- Fast U-turns
- Gets priority recovery in Roost
- Has boosting moves like Bulk Up and Swords Dance
- Has utility moves like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and priority Tailwind

Cons:
- 4x weak to Stealth Rocks
- Only has 81 Base Attack
- Relatively frail (78, 71, 69 defenses)
- Gets worn down easily by recoil

Revenge Killer:

A+

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 355-418 (132.4 - 155.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 283-334 (82 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 470-554 (172.7 - 203.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 512-606 (158.5 - 187.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 640-760 (186.5 - 221.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Plus its Sword Dance set packs even more of a punch, and its Bulk Up set allows it to beat Mega Sableye.

I wouldn't call it unpredictable so much as versatile. In practice, the way to deal with Talonflame is usually pretty consistent.

1) Try to keep rocks up to limit its switch-ins, or at the very least abuse their "wasted" turn rapid spinning/defogging.
2) Switch in your check and figure out if its set based on damage: Stallbreaker is usually pretty weak/has utility moves, offensive sd is reasonably strong, band is obvious.
3) Based on its set, try to keep your counter/check healthy (mostly needed for offensive sd and stallbreaker), keep up rocks and abuse it's mediocre defensive typing to limit its free switch in.

3) is even easier if the talonflame set isn't particularly threatening to your team -stallbreaker not particularly threatening to offense, band not particularly threatening to stall or even many offense builds (due to it being difficult to rapid spin/defog vs. them)

Of course, Talonflame is a great mon and will rip apart some teams regardless, but its "unpredictability" isn't that big of an issue since many of its counters/checks are the same for different sets, and figuring out its set is not terribly hard - if it comes in early-game, it's easy to figure out; if it's being preserved until late game, it's probably band or offensive sd.

 

[SWAGCOLFO]

Just a few quick nitpicks:
1. Welcome to smogon fren :]
2. Please hide calcs with the command [.hide=title] ofc without the . this isnt required but its just kind of courtesy when using a high amount of calcs

Cheers for feedback (I'm still a n00b at this)

Also I didn't say that Mhera was a counter to Sableye, just that with a little residual it could deal with it relatively easily. The main part of the threat of Mhera is the fact that unless you have something to switch into an attack , you are gonna either lose a pokemon or have a pokemon lose a huge chunk of hp (provided you predict correctly). This is one of its main perks, alongside the fact that it can hit most of the meta at least neutrally with a moveset of CC,Pin missile, rock blast and Bullet seed.

Albeit after reading arguments I can see why it may be considered B+. The speed tier is pretty bad and lando-T, clef and gliscor still tank most hits from it. It also lacks real versatility aside from sub sd and trick room usage.

Some more calcs for a range of pokes,

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 540-636 (199.2 - 234.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 95-115 (24.8 - 30.1%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 130-155 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 285-335 (79.8 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Kills if Adamant)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 260-310 (85.8 - 102.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 290-350 (73.7 - 89%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 285-335 (102.8 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 170-210 (46.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 390-470 (120.7 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Specs hydro has a 6.3% chance to OHKO)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 610-730 (232.8 - 278.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, starmie cannot OHKO in return without SR.

I hope some of those show that provided Mhera is healthy, it can hit a lot of top tier pokemon very hard. It is a little more prediction reliant than some other pokemon but with a little support, I.e fast water/ice type for gliscor and lando and Heatran for fairies that aren't azumarill, it can seriously punch holes in teams. Also whilst its not exactly amazing running guts can alleviate the problem of a burn from MSableye.

 

[AM]

Cheers for feedback (I'm still a n00b at this)

Also I didn't say that Mhera was a counter to Sableye, just that with a little residual it could deal with it relatively easily. The main part of the threat of Mhera is the fact that unless you have something to switch into an attack , you are gonna either lose a pokemon or have a pokemon lose a huge chunk of hp (provided you predict correctly). This is one of its main perks, alongside the fact that it can hit most of the meta at least neutrally with a moveset of CC,Pin missile, rock blast and Bullet seed.

Albeit after reading arguments I can see why it may be considered B+. The speed tier is pretty bad and lando-T, clef and gliscor still tank most hits from it. It also lacks real versatility aside from sub sd and trick room usage.

Some more calcs for a range of pokes,

Calcs

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 540-636 (199.2 - 234.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 95-115 (24.8 - 30.1%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 130-155 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 285-335 (79.8 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Kills if Adamant)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 260-310 (85.8 - 102.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 290-350 (73.7 - 89%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 285-335 (102.8 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 170-210 (46.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 390-470 (120.7 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Specs hydro has a 6.3% chance to OHKO)

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 610-730 (232.8 - 278.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, starmie cannot OHKO in return without SR.

I hope some of those show that provided Mhera is healthy, it can hit a lot of top tier pokemon very hard. It is a little more prediction reliant than some other pokemon but with a little support, I.e fast water/ice type for gliscor and lando and Heatran for fairies that aren't azumarill, it can seriously punch holes in teams. Also whilst its not exactly amazing running guts can alleviate the problem of a burn from MSableye.

Welcome to the forums btw. Anyways my issue with M-Heracross is mainly the prediction argument as you said. I mean sure a lot of stall teams are unprepared for M-Heracross to a degree but there's a lot of teams that just get by beating it through blanket checks. So a lot of times it's too dependent on prediction against the Balanced and Offensive builds and if it fails to hit the right move it loses a ton of momentum. I've used it some amount in our current meta and to be honest I'm not that impressed. Sure it forces out a lot of switches that can be taken advantage of but a lot of games I felt it had 0 impact because it's so pressured sometimes to maintain its wall-breaking capabilities against threats who either don't care about it or are hitting it first. I'm not exactly very confident in it being an A- threat anymore. Blanket checks everywhere and the play-style it's designed to beat is only getting floored by it if the defensive build forgot to take it into account, and stall players are fully aware of how to handle it appropriately.

 

[blaargathon]

i think the reason people responded the way they did is because you were very matter-of-fact about what togekiss does. no one even uses paraflinch? like this isnt dpp. toge is a nice mon that can, as previously stated, perform whatever role fits best for your team. air slash's flinch chance is cool and all, but its not the reason people use it. it can be a defogger, st/wallbreaker, nastypasser, whatever. sure, certain sets may be done better by other things, but it has certain niches over those mons, like its great typing, decent stats, and pretty nice offensive movepool.
also

lol?

Had i said anything offensive, I would have gotten banned.

Anyways, thank you for clearing some things up about Togekiss. However, even after considering the things it can do, I still don't think it deserves to be B Rank. That's just my opinion.

Also, for future reference, don't call inexperienced people "dumb" just because they're misinformed. This is all for fun, and frankly trying to make people feel stupid over Pokemon makes you look childish. Be serious and passionate about competitive Pokemon all you want, but don't take it too seriously to the point where you feel the need to insult people. Was I aware of what Togekiss does in this metagame? No. Am I the most knowledgeable Pokemon player around? Of course not. Does that make me stupid? Not at all.

...and before you ask, no. I'm not trying to be a SJW. This is just common sense.

 

[bludz]

Dark T the CB Flare Blitz calculations for Bisharp fails to account for Sucker Punch.

If you choose to Flare Blitz you will die from recoil damage after eating a Sucker Punch, since Flare Blitz does not have priority. Brave Bird is very unlikely to 2HKO (3.9% chance), so this is not a very advantageous position for Talonflame. There are better things for taking out Bisharp.

Either way I agree with the others who said Talonflame should stay in A+. Taking 50% from Stealth Rocks is a big enough weakness to keep it out of S despite all its great qualities.

 

[pretty little liAr]

Okay, I've had this though for a while, however, with yet ANOTHER Pokemon being nominated for S rank, I think everyone should seriously consider if their respected nominee fits the S rank criteria.
List of Mons who are S, were recently S, or have been nominated for S:
Mega Metagross
Mega Sableye
Mega Altaria
Mega Loppuny
Mega Gyarados
Landerus Therian
Keldeo
Latios
Talonflame
Clefable
That's a list of ten pokemon, and when making an S rank nomination, you really have to consider if your respected choice is comparable to Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye, who are currently the only Pokemon who are undinably S. Here is the S rank description:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Quite Frankly, other the Mega Sableye and Metagross, none of these Pokemon completely fit that description.
Altaria is not that difficult to deal with before it gets going, even then, it needs at least two dragon dances to become truly threatening. It's wallbreaker sets are really good, but still quite slow, so it's not particularly threating to offence(bar agility). Loppuny has been summed up by the others, and is the S rank I have the least experience using. Mega Gyarados is really hurt by the fact that it gets worn down easily and that it has low base power moves. Since it has no reliable recovery, it can only take so many hits to set up. Jukain explained Landerus better then I ever could. Keldeo is really good at weakning it's checks with a scald burn, but at the end of the day, it is 30% chance of burning. Not to mention it is forced out by stuff like the lati twins burn or not, and it speed is no longer what it used to be. If it runs scarf, it misses out on the crucial power that specs or +1/2 calm mind variants have. Latios has become quite easy to check, as it does have a bit of the 4mss, as it wishes it could run Draco/hp fire/equake/recover/psyshock/defog. Even if your team does have a rapid spinner, you still can't run all those moves. An increase of usage of scarf tyranitar is not doing it any favours. Quad weakness to stealth rock alone pretty much murders any chance of tflame being S, and this is simply back up by poor bulk and the fact that it kills itself quite quickly (even if it runs roost it is still quite frail). Clefable is versatile and slappable, but is bulk is not amazing, and has to choose between fire blast or heal bell in the last slot(unaware variants prefer heal bell, while magic gaurd variants like Fire blast). Not to mention that is not that difficult to stop in the Moment (with stuff like Metagross, Ferrothorn and gengar running wild...).
I also object sub rankings for the S rank, as if a Pokemon does not meet the criteria necrssary, then it's not S rank. Period.
In conclusion, I think that people are seriously overhyping Pokemon by comparing them to Sableye and Metagross, and that the viability rankings should clearly show the dominance of these two Pokemon. No more Pokemon are needed in S rank, as they are definetley a step below these two titans.
Overall Thoughts
Mega Sableye - S
Mega Metagross - S
Mega Altaria - A+
Mega Loppuny - A+
Mega Gyarados - A+
Landerus Therian - A+
Keldeo - A+
Latios - A+
Talonflame - A+
Clefable - A+

 

[AM]

Most of the nominations towards S with the exceptions of a couple of things that were subjective to a lot of people such as Clefable for example, were based mostly from a theorymon standpoint and from a position of hyping up traits that don't always apply in practice. I know myself and others want to avoid this, and we want to start avoiding it the sooner the better to provide some more accuracy or at least as accurate as possible for ranks. You can't exactly make a case to me or the ranking team for something to be at a certain rank by jotting down a paragraph or two, a fancy picture, with some thrown together calcs and calling it a day. We see games all the time, we talk with plenty of individuals both involved in here, high ladder community, and tour level players where we are able to see these games as such can understand how it's used on a practical level. Your reasoning really needs to establish in what ways does this apply in actual practice and not under the assumption that you're some sort of messiah in the art of prediction and double switches either. Specifcs > generalizations basically, in regards to the meta without all the fluff. The more you actually follow this concept the easier it is to understand what forces are dominant and which ones aren't.

Also people are going to nom things for S all the time or just make some crazy nom that makes no sense, this isn't exactly a new thing it's been a thing for multiple threads and versions of this. I know a lot of you are actually relatively new reading this but yeah some of us already know this is a common occurrence lol. It's not really a huge issue anyways as long as the discussion doesn't get overly mind numbing and at least the topics of discussion are being discussed relatively well. Just use a bit of common sense, reasoning, and don't get caught up on petty arguments.

 

[Roxachronic]

Okay, I've had this though for a while, however, with yet ANOTHER Pokemon being nominated for S rank, I think everyone should seriously consider if their respected nominee fits the S rank criteria.
List of Mons who are S, were recently S, or have been nominated for S:
Mega Metagross
Mega Sableye
Mega Altaria
Mega Loppuny
Mega Gyarados
Landerus Therian
Keldeo
Latios
Talonflame
Clefable
That's a list of ten pokemon, and when making an S rank nomination, you really have to consider if your respected choice is comparable to Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye, who are currently the only Pokemon who are undinably S. Here is the S rank description:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Quite Frankly, other the Mega Sableye and Metagross, none of these Pokemon completely fit that description.
Altaria is not that difficult to deal with before it gets going, even then, it needs at least two dragon dances to become truly threatening. It's wallbreaker sets are really good, but still quite slow, so it's not particularly threating to offence(bar agility). Loppuny has been summed up by the others, and is the S rank I have the least experience using. Mega Gyarados is really hurt by the fact that it gets worn down easily and that it has low base power moves. Since it has no reliable recovery, it can only take so many hits to set up. Jukain explained Landerus better then I ever could. Keldeo is really good at weakning it's checks with a scald burn, but at the end of the day, it is 30% chance of burning. Not to mention it is forced out by stuff like the lati twins burn or not, and it speed is no longer what it used to be. If it runs scarf, it misses out on the crucial power that specs or +1/2 calm mind variants have. Latios has become quite easy to check, as it does have a bit of the 4mss, as it wishes it could run Draco/hp fire/equake/recover/psyshock/defog. Even if your team does have a rapid spinner, you still can't run all those moves. An increase of usage of scarf tyranitar is not doing it any favours. Quad weakness to stealth rock alone pretty much murders any chance of tflame being S, and this is simply back up by poor bulk and the fact that it kills itself quite quickly (even if it runs roost it is still quite frail). Clefable is versatile and slappable, but is bulk is not amazing, and has to choose between fire blast or heal bell in the last slot(unaware variants prefer heal bell, while magic gaurd variants like Fire blast). Not to mention that is not that difficult to stop in the Moment (with stuff like Metagross, Ferrothorn and gengar running wild...).
I also object sub rankings for the S rank, as if a Pokemon does not meet the criteria necrssary, then it's not S rank. Period.
In conclusion, I think that people are seriously overhyping Pokemon by comparing them to Sableye and Metagross, and that the viability rankings should clearly show the dominance of these two Pokemon. No more Pokemon are needed in S rank, as they are definetley a step below these two titans.
Overall Thoughts
Mega Sableye - S
Mega Metagross - S
Mega Altaria - A+
Mega Loppuny - A+
Mega Gyarados - A+
Landerus Therian - A+
Keldeo - A+
Latios - A+
Talonflame - A+
Clefable - A+

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

In what way this does not describe Lando-T? You are forgetting that even if the cost of using M-Meta or M-Sab is not as high compared to other megas(since they are the faces of Offense and Stall) the cost is still there, and when on teambuilding this is kind of important, unlike Lando-T who has like no drawbacks when using him, offensive presence, damage, momentum, crippling,checking physical mons,cleaning after birds are gone this mon can do all of this with only its scarf set, when building an offense focused team what mon comes even close to Lando-T when building it? not being a Mega makes using him basically without opportunity cost.

I mean I doon't really understand why people want Lando-T to drop, before somebody says ''It requires prediction'', first of all ,Scarfed, Choice and even a huge bunch of not locked mons are prediction reliant in a lot of ways in practice, second, U-Turn and Knock off are incredible spammable, they should be called ''click this to get free momentum'' and ''click this to screw any pokemon that comes because you scared a physical mon just by incoming'', and last of it if a mon did not required prediction it would be called Greninja and be banned.

Clefable,M-Altaria,M-CharX,Talonflame all have reasons to not be S, I can understand that, the first one ebcause it cannot do all with just one set, the other ones have specific flaws or have an opportunity cost when using them, but Lando-T? it does not have crippling flaws and the cost of using him is practically non existant.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Why do you guys want MLop to A+? If anything, Lando T is going to A+ before any S rank mons are going down. I mean, its understandable that MLop has flaws but there is no such thing as a flawless mon. That said I think the S rank is fine how it is, it doesnt need anything else there or anything gone.

However, Lando T could possibly be a A+ rank mon. It may not have a lot of checks but if you think about it like this: This pokemon is no more than a mere pivot. Its Scarf set, by far the most popular, cannot risk staying into pokemon because they might be stuck in the move and get free setup time or w/e.

It does have enough flaws imo. But, that doesnt mean it should go to A+. Im honestly struggling to find any huge flaws for this guy or i must be demented.

Being worn down
Being setup bait
Knock Off just cripples it
Keldeo,Adamant Bish,Lando T,Skarm, Rotom W, Gliscor, etc. All fuck it over, while being extremely common threats.

Lando T isnt a threat at all. It just comes in, U turns, leaves, and switches in something that threatens the pokemon thats out while lowering its Attack. It may be glue to a team, but thats about it. Honestly I'm leaning for leaving it in S for now because there isnt too much wrong going for him but A+ isnt out of the question. I feel like it fits its role the best but also has troubles with staying in and being worn down.

Just sucks that a pokemon gets countered by the same pokemon.


I cant see any bad reasons for MLop to A+ because it basically 2HKO's almost anything that dares come in. Seriously, only a few things can stop it, and I find it funny that you guys (including me) oversell things you want to go up then undersell things you want to go down. If it doesnt hit hard enough, SubPuP sets exist. Not to mention it fares decently against all playstyles and usually has trouble with extremely bulky mons or anything faster than it (which is a tiny ass list i say.)
Versatile, Fast, unresisted STABS, what more do you guys want?


Also Moose, you dont compare other tiers from a different game to a game that is probably much different. S rank is not borderline broken, its if the pokemon does a role very well and is overall amazing, not broken. Never knew Gren was borderline broken in XY lol.

 

[ThePack]

Why do you guys want MLop to A+? If anything, Lando T is going to A+ before any S rank mons are going down. I mean, its understandable that MLop has flaws but there is no such thing as a flawless mon. That said I think the S rank is fine how it is, it doesnt need anything else there or anything gone.

However, Lando T could possibly be a A+ rank mon. It may not have a lot of checks but if you think about it like this: This pokemon is no more than a mere pivot. Its Scarf set, by far the most popular, cannot risk staying into pokemon because they might be stuck in the move and get free setup time or w/e.

It does have enough flaws imo. But, that doesnt mean it should go to A+. Im honestly struggling to find any huge flaws for this guy or i must be demented.

Being worn down
Being setup bait
Knock Off just cripples it
Keldeo,Adamant Bish,Lando T,Skarm, Rotom W, Gliscor, etc. All fuck it over, while being extremely common threats.

Lando T isnt a threat at all. It just comes in, U turns, leaves, and switches in something that threatens the pokemon thats out while lowering its Attack. It may be glue to a team, but thats about it. Honestly I'm leaning for leaving it in S for now because there isnt too much wrong going for him but A+ isnt out of the question. I feel like it fits its role the best but also has troubles with staying in and being worn down.

Just sucks that a pokemon gets countered by the same pokemon.


I cant see any bad reasons for MLop to A+ because it basically 2HKO's almost anything that dares come in. Seriously, only a few things can stop it, and I find it funny that you guys (including me) oversell things you want to go up then undersell things you want to go down. If it doesnt hit hard enough, SubPuP sets exist. Not to mention it fares decently against all playstyles and usually has trouble with extremely bulky mons or anything faster than it (which is a tiny ass list i say.)
Versatile, Fast, unresisted STABS, what more do you guys want?


Also Moose, you dont compare other tiers from a different game to a game that is probably much different. S rank is not borderline broken, its if the pokemon does a role very well and is overall amazing, not broken. Never knew Gren was borderline broken in XY lol.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

To begin with, I'd like to point out that I'm addressing the POST and not the POSTER. I respect your logic, and am presenting my own.

In addressing this post, I begin with stating that Choice Scarf Landorus-T is not BY FAR, the most popular set, looking at the OU Suspect-Test Stats from December, roughly 40% of Landorus-T use Leftovers, i.e. the Stealth Rock set, a set that was not even mentioned in your post.

Furthermore, Landorus-T is not "a mere pivot"; the Scarf Landorus-T set makes it one of the BEST offensive pivots in the current meta, which is primarily physical, due to its ability, Intimidate, decent defensive stats, great offensive stats, and access to Ground/Rock coverage. It also makes it one of the best Revenge-Killers in the current meta, being able to revenge-kill mons like Adamant Mega Charizard X at +1, Zard Y, Mega Manectric, Mega Diancie, Latios, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Mega Metagross (after a tad of prior damage), and many others with its Ground/Rock/Bug coverage. It is unfortunate being choiced into a move, however that comes with the territory; additionally, as it has access to one of the most spammable moves in the tier i.e. Knock Off, if a switch is obvious, it will be punished. Additionally, as the Scarf set is meant as a Revenge-Killer/Pivot set, Lando-T isn't gonna stay in to be set up on. It'll either revenge-kill and switch out, or threaten a KO and pivot out/knock off a switch, if it's obvious.

Lando-T also has another set, the defensive i.e. the Stealth Rock set, which is still amazing in this current meta. Being able to set up rocks reliably, check Scarf Lando-T, Birdspam, Mega Metagross (to an extent), Mega Beedrill, Mega Charizard X, TTar + Excadrill, and other mons is no small feat. Not to mention the defensive set makes Lando-T an excellent defensive pivot. There are other roles Lando-T fulfills, such as RP Lando-T or Double Dance, however these are much less common.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Lando-T is not a threat. It can either set up rocks on you (SR set), revenge-kill you (scarf set), pivot out predicting your switch, or bop it with a Knock Off (or Explosion, because yolo). Each of these scenarios is quite threatening.

On another note, LO Adamant Bisharp only beats Lando-T 1v1 if Lando-T switches into Bisharp after rocks, giving it the Defiant boost. Otherwise, Lando-T still beats it 1v1.

Calcs, if you want

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 192-227 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 356-420 (130.8 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In my opinion, Landorus-T has a relatively high impact on the tier, as it is a Low Risk, High Reward pokemon, which fulfills quite a few roles effectively.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Also Moose, you dont compare other tiers from a different game to a game that is probably much different. S rank is not borderline broken, its if the pokemon does a role very well and is overall amazing, not broken. Never knew Gren was borderline broken in XY lol.

Just going to comment on this part and say, I stated that is what I've always viewed S in meaning. Something the meta centralizes around, which Mega Lopunny does not fit. Also, Greninja was borderline broken, it just needed a few things which it got in ORAS, and well, look where it is now. . .

 

[November Blue]

My thoughts on Mega Lopunny:

It should stay in S. I've seen a couple of posts that boil down to "Sableye and Metagross are the best mons in OU by far, so Lopunny and Landorus should be moved to A+ because they aren't as good." IMO this is awful reasoning. Remember back in X&Y, when Azu and Thundy were the best mons in OU, and lots of people wanted to distinguish them from the other S ranks in some way? We never did. If we want S to be a single rank (i.e. not split into subranks), we need it to accommodate multiple types of pokemon.

It's generally agreed that Sableye and Metagross are the best mons for stall and offense, respectively, so Lopunny is inferior to them. This is similar to the above, and not really valid IMO. Lopunny should be ranked on its own merits, not compared to Metagross. They're both powerful offensive threats, but that's where the similarities end.

For me, Lopunny is S because it's unmatched. Almost nothing outspeeds Lopunny. Nothing has better STAB coverage than Lopunny. There are lots of mons that share Lopunny's movepool versatility, but none share its offensive prowess. Scrappy High Jump Kick is an obscenely good move, and the fact that it obliterates Mega Sableye is the icing on the cake. There's almost zero opportunity cost in using Megabunny, because it and Keldeo are the best Fighting types in the tier, it does well against all playstyles, has that insane versatility, and will always pull its weight in battle.

It's also incredibly safe. It resists SR, forces switches like crazy, can Mega Evolve safely with Fake Out, has decent bulk, ect. The only way to wall it is with sheer bulk, and boosting sets make that difficult. It's one of the only mons in OU that has no hard counter (like Heatran walls Clefable). This is an S rank worthy feature. Lopunny's ability to wear down the opponent's mons is great for team support, and the chip damage it causes simply by switching in and throwing out attacks lets it do this almost effortlessly. It doesn't need to be a sweeper, so checking it only solves half of the problem.

 

[Roxachronic]

Why do you guys want MLop to A+? If anything, Lando T is going to A+ before any S rank mons are going down. I mean, its understandable that MLop has flaws but there is no such thing as a flawless mon. That said I think the S rank is fine how it is, it doesnt need anything else there or anything gone.

However, Lando T could possibly be a A+ rank mon. It may not have a lot of checks but if you think about it like this: This pokemon is no more than a mere pivot. Its Scarf set, by far the most popular, cannot risk staying into pokemon because they might be stuck in the move and get free setup time or w/e.

It does have enough flaws imo. But, that doesnt mean it should go to A+. Im honestly struggling to find any huge flaws for this guy or i must be demented.

Being worn down
Being setup bait
Knock Off just cripples it
Keldeo,Adamant Bish,Lando T,Skarm, Rotom W, Gliscor, etc. All fuck it over, while being extremely common threats.

Lando T isnt a threat at all. It just comes in, U turns, leaves, and switches in something that threatens the pokemon thats out while lowering its Attack. It may be glue to a team, but thats about it. Honestly I'm leaning for leaving it in S for now because there isnt too much wrong going for him but A+ isnt out of the question. I feel like it fits its role the best but also has troubles with staying in and being worn down.

Just sucks that a pokemon gets countered by the same pokemon.


I cant see any bad reasons for MLop to A+ because it basically 2HKO's almost anything that dares come in. Seriously, only a few things can stop it, and I find it funny that you guys (including me) oversell things you want to go up then undersell things you want to go down. If it doesnt hit hard enough, SubPuP sets exist. Not to mention it fares decently against all playstyles and usually has trouble with extremely bulky mons or anything faster than it (which is a tiny ass list i say.)
Versatile, Fast, unresisted STABS, what more do you guys want?


Also Moose, you dont compare other tiers from a different game to a game that is probably much different. S rank is not borderline broken, its if the pokemon does a role very well and is overall amazing, not broken. Never knew Gren was borderline broken in XY lol.

What kind of argument is that a pokemon should drop because it is countered by himself?

''M-Metagross should drop because it is countered by another M-Metagross that has EQ''(of course this is just an example, of how ridiculous this argument is, even if there are some minor differences in the actual comparison)

That is what your argument implied against Lando-T.

''Just a pivot''? lol, he scares physical mons just by incoming, cripples ones incoming with knock off, and can 2OHKO(or OHKO) almost all the tier, and on top of that being able to provide momentum, what other pivot does this?

Also is funny that you undersell Lando-T and praise M-Lop in the same post that you said that someone should not undersell and/or praise some specific mons.

Of course I don't think M-Lop should drop, it is not better than M-Metgaross or M-Sableye in what they do, but it does great against a lot of playstyles with one set, alongside being able to support her team if she wants without having a 4MSS unlike M-Meta because of her greats STABs.

She should be S rank because she fits the criteria and is above all A+ ranks.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

''Just a pivot''? lol, he scares physical mons just by incoming, cripples ones incoming with knock off, and can 2OHKO(or OHKO) almost all the tier, and on top of that being able to provide momentum, what other pivot does this?

I dont disagree with the point you're making, but you're kind of overselling Lando-T, yes its easily the best offensive pivot in the game and yes in theory it O/2HKOs most of the tier, however in practice it clicks U-Turn 80+% of the time, not that this is necessarily a bad thing.


Scarf Lando runs 1 STAB which is very easy to abuse when locked into, Knock Off is a spammable move, but most Megas can shrug it off easily and proceed to set up on Landorus or fire off a high powered STAB on whatever the lando player switches into.


It's definitely not without faults though and is IMO less deserving of S tier than M-Lopunny.

 

[pretty little liAr]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

In what way this does not describe Lando-T? You are forgetting that even if the cost of using M-Meta or M-Sab is not as high compared to other megas(since they are the fces of Offense and Stall) the cost is still there, and when on teambuilding this is kind of important, unlike Lando-T who has like no drawbacks when using him, offensive presence, damage, momentum, crippling,checking physical mons,cleaning after birds are gone this mon can do all of this with only its scarf set, when building an offense focused team what mon comes even close to Lando-T when building it? not being a Mega makes using him basically without opportunity cost.

I mean I doon't really understand why people want Lando-T to drop, before somebody says ''It requires prediction'', first of all all Scarfed, Choice or even not locked mons are prediction reliant in a lot of ways in practice, second, U-Turn and Knock off are incredible spammable, they should be called ''click this to get free momentum'' and ''click this to screw any pokemon that comes because you scared a physical mon just by incoming'', and last of it if a mon did not required prediction it would be called Greninja and be banned.

Clefable,M-Altaria,M-CharX,Talonflame all have reasons to not be S, I can understand that, the first one ebcause it cannot do all with just one set, the other ones have specific flaws or have an opportunity cost when using them, but Lando-T? it does not have crippling flaws and the cost of using him is practically non existant.

U-turn and knock off are not as spamable as you might think.
If he uses knock off, the teams mega and come in and set up (assuming lano is scarf) Giving Mega Altaria, charizard X and Sableye a free boost is not something you want to do. U-turn is very good in certain scenarios for gaining momentum. However if you miss predict and diance sets up a rock Polish or charizArd goes for Ddance, then you pretty much killed any momentum you had in the first place.

 

[Roxachronic]

I dont disagree with the point you're making, but you're kind of overselling Lando-T, yes its easily the best offensive pivot in the game and yes in theory it O/2HKOs most of the tier, however in practice it clicks U-Turn 80+% of the time, not that this is necessarily a bad thing.


Scarf Lando runs 1 STAB which is very easy to abuse when locked into, Knock Off is a spammable move, but most Megas can shrug it off easily and proceed to set up on Landorus or fire off a high powered STAB on whatever the lando player switches into.


It's definitely not without faults though and is IMO less deserving of S tier than M-Lopunny.

In reality almost any locked STAB can be abused, so that applies to almost every choice user, of course some Megas don't care about Knock Off, but any of them would not come in unless he is locked into something that does not threat them, which means that on the first turn Lando-T comes in your opponent is on a tight spot, which is why he has the ability to disrupt and grab momentum.

He has flaws as any mon, but if he was perfect he would not be in OU.

Also remember that he comes free, M-Lopunny even if it is a great mon, costs a fortune called ''megaslot'', and in this meta where it has such a high demand not being dependant on using it is a great selling point for a mon.

 

[Kurona]

l

In reality almost any locked STAB can be abused, so that applies to almost every choice user, of course some Megas don't care about Knock Off, but any of them would not come in unless he is locked into something that does not threat them, which means that on the first turn Lando-T comes in your opponent is on a tight spot, which is why he has the ability to disrupt and grab momentum.

He has flaws as any mon, but if he was perfect he would not be in OU.

Also remember that he comes free, M-Lopunny even if it is a great mon, costs a fortune called ''megaslot'', and in this meta where it has such a high demand not being dependant on using it is a great selling point for a mon.

Well, there is the slight opportunity cost of not being able to run Lando-I...
The Opportunity Cost of a Mega Slot is invalid in Lopunny's case I feel; as nothing else really does what it does and if you're using it then surely no other Mega would fit your team.

 

[Roxachronic]

U-turn and knock off are not as spamable as you might think.
If he uses knock off, the teams mega and come in and set up (assuming lano is scarf) Giving Mega Altaria, charizard X and Sableye a free boost is not something you want to do. U-turn is very good in certain scenarios for gaining momentum. However if you miss predict and diance sets up a rock Polish or charizArd goes for Ddance, then you pretty much killed any momentum you had in the first place.

I would not send a M-Altaria or CharX unless he is locked because they die by Stone Edge if predicted, M-Sableye comes in kind of easily so I will give you that.

also why would you use U-Turn on M-Diancie instead of killing her with EQ?Lando-T has 4 moves like any other mon, not just U-turn and Knock Off.

l

Well, there is the slight opportunity cost of not being able to run Lando-I...
The Opportunity Cost of a Mega Slot is invalid in Lopunny's case I feel; as nothing else really does what it does and if you're using it then surely no other Mega would fit your team.

Lets be serious... Lando-I is not bad, but... not near the same price, even if they were 2 separate mons you would not use them on a same team because that huge weakness and type overlap.

Also sorry if you felt I pointed M-Lopunny has such a high cost, I was refering to the ''megaslot'' by itself being costly, I don't think by any means that she is affected by that unlike some other mons, but it should still be took into account.