ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[bludz]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned M-Slowbro. I find this thing to be incredibly hard to deal with, as its defense stat is already high and after 1-2 CMs it can do a surprising amount of damage to anything not named Chansey. The RestTalk/CM set is irritating as hell and is only truly stopped by something like Vaporeon. Furthermore, it can't be killed by Bisharp's Knock Off (no 1.5x item boost) and after a CM even Thundurus fails to do beat it.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Slowbro: 229-273 (58.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 195-231 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Slowbro is a serious threat but it can't beat Thundurus at +1 when they're both at full HP.

Almost every team I make I'm sure to have a pokemon that can 2HKO this thing though, I agree it's a real handful.

On an unrelated note I think if M-Sableye got banned then M-Metagross definitely would. Personally I think they should both stay - both are great but I don't think either is broken.

Sableye's presence IMO actually does more for it when it's not on the field than when it is. There are enough really powerful attackers that can take it out besides Fairies, and while it does make getting up rocks difficult it isn't impossible. Neutering utility is problematic but it's not gamebreaking since Sableye isn't a safe switch into everything that wants to use a utility move.

Metagross is a beast but it doesn't outpace the most relevant benchmark so at the very least a lot of things have a 50/50 shot to smack it hard. I think the thing that is the most ridiculous about it is its sheer bulk and how difficult it is to revenge. It is pretty staggering that it survives Lando-T's Earthquake at full HP. I think it's more worthy of suspect than Sableye but it is put to a full stop by a few things and has a serious number of common checks.

I think M-Slowbro is one best pokemon out there, especially now that Greninja is gone. It can easily set up on almost every physical attacker, Bisharp can't 2HKO it because Knock Off doesn't get the boost, and once it's set up it's almost impossible to kill. With Shell Armour you can't crit it to ignore the SpDef boost either. This guy has swept so many teams for me, I feel like it's worthy of a suspect test.

I can't really say much about M-Metagross, since I have M-Slowbro on my team which completely walls it, so my opinion about it is biased.

Slowbro doesn't wall Metagross who run Grass Knot. Also Mega Gyarados can critical hit with Mold Breaker I believe. Agreed on Slowbro being a serious beast but not sure about a suspect test. Double dance is very susceptible to status and CroBro is hard walled by a few things which makes it easier to switch into and out of to deal with it. Taunt is also a nightmare for it

 

[pika pal]

stall still has mega alt/mega bro, so its not dead as a playstyle per se, its just gonna be unfavorable compared to offense

The thing is, Sableye doesn't hold Stall together just by direct consequence of its many roles, but also by taking those jobs off the shoulders of its teammates. For example, both Sableye and Slowbro might able to handle, say Garchomp defensively, but Mega Sableye's Magic Bounce also means you're not limited to giving it partners with both defensive synergy AND hazard control, which makes it easier to build a Stall Team around the necessary defensive backbone rather than needing to work in both those jobs and the bulk. For example, Sableye's ability to keep hazards away and reduce passive damage makes it easier to use Unaware over Magic Guard on Clefable, which in turn lightens the threat of Set up Sweepers for the team. Sableye has not only thus contributed directly with it does, but indirectly with what its teammates do not have to do themselves.

I am by no means a stall player but at least experience of facing them and from what I have observed in the ladder, starting say the Greninja OU suspect ladder, I at least noticed that there are certainly viable builds of stall that didn't rely on MSable. Most successful ones being those with MVenus, which many of us are seeing a resurgence (likely due to Sub-CM Keldeo), aside that there were stall builds higher up the ladder that used MAltaria to good effect etc. The point being that I do understand how important MSable's role in stall is being this one stop package but I do feel it is at least hasty to say that the play style would likely be dead or unable to adapt with the available tools, when that really isn't the case.

I have not encountered those builds so perhaps my wording was a bit hasty in saying the playstyle would be dead altogether.

I guess more what I meant is Stall would probably fall out of influence. Stall is a playstyle that, in theory, is easier to adapt to than for it to itself adapt. For some offensive teams it's usually not quite as tricky to change the moves on their wall breakers if something becomes more common for the sake of powering through. On the other hand, Stall has to have safe switch ins to as many things as possible, so if something becomes prevalent and a team member has to be adjusted for it, it might require retooling other mons with which it formed a core depending on how adjusting to one mon affects its match up with something else important.

I remember post-Aegi XY having Doublade just because Stall was left that empty without Aegislash as a glue, and even that was more like masking tape since Doublade could only just barely handle some-but-not-all of the Megas Aegislash kept in check.

What I think lets Sableye keep stall viable is not just everything he brings to the table, but the weight he takes off allowing enough wiggle room for stall to adapt as fast as other playstyles can. The Mega Wallbreakers in XY sat on top for so long because it took a long time to find things that could fit into the cores they needed to handle pre-Aegislash while also dealing with those that emerged post Aegislash. Sableye is still checked by Gardevoir, but handling so many other things makes it less limiting for Stall to fit something to handle her without sacrificing switch ability for other threats.

I don't deny that Sableye does require teambuilding consideration in its own right, but the same could be said of the weather playstyles in Gen 5, which were considered acceptable: being weak to rain and/or sand was a death sentence, and while not as viable, better built sun teams were still an element to consider. Sableye may not be the healthiest thing for offense, but I think it at worst a necessary evil to keep the metagame from completely shunting out defensive playstyles. Hell, I'm not even entirely sure what affect his departure and the freedom to offense would do to the state of balance, good or bad.

 

[Machi]

I have not encountered those builds so perhaps my wording was a bit hasty in saying the playstyle would be dead altogether.

I guess more what I meant is Stall would probably fall out of influence. Stall is a playstyle that, in theory, is easier to adapt to than for it to itself adapt. For some offensive teams it's usually not quite as tricky to change the moves on their wall breakers if something becomes more common for the sake of powering through. On the other hand, Stall has to have safe switch ins to as many things as possible, so if something becomes prevalent and a team member has to be adjusted for it, it might require retooling other mons with which it formed a core depending on how adjusting to one mon affects its match up with something else important.

I remember post-Aegi XY having Doublade just because Stall was left that empty without Aegislash as a glue, and even that was more like masking tape since Doublade could only just barely handle some-but-not-all of the Megas Aegislash kept in check.

What I think lets Sableye keep stall viable is not just everything he brings to the table, but the weight he takes off allowing enough wiggle room for stall to adapt as fast as other playstyles can. The Mega Wallbreakers in XY sat on top for so long because it took a long time to find things that could fit into the cores they needed to handle pre-Aegislash while also dealing with those that emerged post Aegislash. Sableye is still checked by Gardevoir, but handling so many other things makes it less limiting for Stall to fit something to handle her without sacrificing switch ability for other threats.

I don't deny that Sableye does require teambuilding consideration in its own right, but the same could be said of the weather playstyles in Gen 5, which were considered acceptable: being weak to rain and/or sand was a death sentence, and while not as viable, better built sun teams were still an element to consider. Sableye may not be the healthiest thing for offense, but I think it at worst a necessary evil to keep the metagame from completely shunting out defensive playstyles. Hell, I'm not even entirely sure what affect his departure and the freedom to offense would do to the state of balance, good or bad.

Okay first off even with the departure of Aegis in XY I would hardly call stall lacking in influence as it was able to adapt well, Victini & Slowbro being found to be a very good answer to many of the XY wall breakers as well as Bulky Wisp Chari-X, and still managed to perform fairly well. While yes Aegis left a gap that isn't to say again there were other viable tools that had to be explored like Alo/Jirachi. It also made for the return of spinning so to speak, with Starmie/Tentracruel.

I think another thing we have to differentiate here is that Aegis unlike MSable has more influence than simply stall and it would be downplaying his own effects on offensive teams that used him to great success, so much so that we saw a possible suspect of Thundrus-I. Honestly, the biggest cancer was Aegis/Thundrus/Landorus-I cores...

I think the difference here is the sort of stall you seem to have in mind versus the one I am seeing. The stall I see that you seem to mention is more akin to the very passive gameplay whereas the stall I have in mind has incorporated some offensive pressure, hence MVenus over MSable. The one I see falling out of favor is the more passive sort of stall whereas proactive types I doubt would suffer all that much, as they aren't reliant on MSable and are more capable of exploring other megas like MVenus/Aero/Altaria.

At the very least I do feel stall is more flexible than it is being given credit for.

 

[New Light]

The thing is, Sableye doesn't hold Stall together just by direct consequence of its many roles, but also by taking those jobs off the shoulders of its teammates. For example, both Sableye and Slowbro might able to handle, say Garchomp defensively, but Mega Sableye's Magic Bounce also means you're not limited to giving it partners with both defensive synergy AND hazard control, which makes it easier to build a Stall Team around the necessary defensive backbone rather than needing to work in both those jobs and the bulk. For example, Sableye's ability to keep hazards away and reduce passive damage makes it easier to use Unaware over Magic Guard on Clefable, which in turn lightens the threat of Set up Sweepers for the team. Sableye has not only thus contributed directly with it does, but indirectly with what its teammates do not have to do themselves.


I have not encountered those builds so perhaps my wording was a bit hasty in saying the playstyle would be dead altogether.

I guess more what I meant is Stall would probably fall out of influence. Stall is a playstyle that, in theory, is easier to adapt to than for it to itself adapt. For some offensive teams it's usually not quite as tricky to change the moves on their wall breakers if something becomes more common for the sake of powering through. On the other hand, Stall has to have safe switch ins to as many things as possible, so if something becomes prevalent and a team member has to be adjusted for it, it might require retooling other mons with which it formed a core depending on how adjusting to one mon affects its match up with something else important.

I remember post-Aegi XY having Doublade just because Stall was left that empty without Aegislash as a glue, and even that was more like masking tape since Doublade could only just barely handle some-but-not-all of the Megas Aegislash kept in check.

What I think lets Sableye keep stall viable is not just everything he brings to the table, but the weight he takes off allowing enough wiggle room for stall to adapt as fast as other playstyles can. The Mega Wallbreakers in XY sat on top for so long because it took a long time to find things that could fit into the cores they needed to handle pre-Aegislash while also dealing with those that emerged post Aegislash. Sableye is still checked by Gardevoir, but handling so many other things makes it less limiting for Stall to fit something to handle her without sacrificing switch ability for other threats.

I don't deny that Sableye does require teambuilding consideration in its own right, but the same could be said of the weather playstyles in Gen 5, which were considered acceptable: being weak to rain and/or sand was a death sentence, and while not as viable, better built sun teams were still an element to consider. Sableye may not be the healthiest thing for offense, but I think it at worst a necessary evil to keep the metagame from completely shunting out defensive playstyles. Hell, I'm not even entirely sure what affect his departure and the freedom to offense would do to the state of balance, good or bad.

Stall is more than the archetypal Mega Sableye team that you are referring to. There are plenty of other bulky mons to build around like Mega Venu and Regenerators. Even with Mega Sableye, stall has serious trouble dealing with Manaphy, Mega Gyara, etc. I'm not in favor of a Mega Sableye ban but to say that stall would be unviable without it is inaccurate.

 

[Flamer]

Theres just one issue I still have with the ou metagame, with the banning of Greninja there are very few concrete broken mons, however, Geopass and any other forms of baton pass chains still remain as matchup based and cancerous as ever. Everyone knows the drill by now, obscure counters, completely rapes anything lacking a way of breaking the chain before it starts. I felt like by the end of XY, Geopass was annoying, but able to be worked around with team support, however with so many threats to account for, there is very little you can put on a team without losing a vital member against a different threat. Cancer pass remains a thorn in the side of OU and is near impossible to work around. It completely removes the idea of a fair game, one person is doing the exact same moves they do every match while the other person sits there trying desperately to break the chain before it starts and the only way to do that is in the first 2 turns. Its almost like Mega Mence, it literally sits there setting up while you wonder why you bother playing this game.

Other than that, Im almost tempted to retest some of the more controversial bans. Aegislash and Genesect seem to be more in line with the current meta, there are a fair few newer mons that might keep them in line, while they seem to keep the borderline broken mons in order. Otherwise, fairly happy with the meta as is.

 

[Reverb]

I definitely agree that Mega Sableye deserves a suspect. Its excellent typing and very good bulk makes it difficult to 2HKO. Moreover, it's resistant to status and immune to Roar/WW. A lot of the common fairies used to beat it are either worn down fairly easily (Azumarill), or trapped by Gothitelle (Clefable). Whereas I do not believe Shadow Tag is broken in its own right, Sableye-M, which walls a large percentage if not most of the metagame (thanks to CM/Wisp and it's bulk), benefits from Shadow Tag teammates to trap its few checks. Finally, it is worth noting that Mega Sableye prevents your opponent from setting up rocks for fear of Magic Bounce. Hazards are crucial to wearing down the opposing team, so hazard prevention is an extremely potent tool that puts the Mega Sableye user at an advantage.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

My thoughts on the current metagame as a middle ranked player.

Well so far I think we have a relativly Decent meta where you can play pretty much any decent playstyle and get away with it with decent success, You want to stall you can, you want HO you can, Rain go for. Want to build around clefable like me and make dragon lovers cry you can do that to. Bulky Fairies have been the big winners who nolonger fear gren turning them into liabilities just by existing and can now perfom all there jobs effectivly be in calm minding to win like clefable, Shutting down the few players still clinging onto dragon and fighting spam and balancing what otherwise be an over offensive meta and lastly breaking stall like gardevoir. Right now pretty much every good team has 1 sometimes 2 fairies and if they dont they carry answers to beat them. Other then Fairies, Megas like Houndoom and Absol have become more common, Diancie and metagross when played well can train wreck teams and despite people saying otherwise tentacruel and empleon are still around. The only pokemon to see declining usages are porygon 2 and Umbreon whose main purpose's were beating greninja. So overall I'd say we have a healthly meta

As for Suspects I think the Omni-presence and centralisation of Mega-sableye needs a look at whom even with the proliferation of fairies and physical fires can pretty much dictate game and shutdown entire counter stall strategies just by existing which is something I feel is not healthy. Somegames All he does is swtich in and then straight out after magic bounce does its thing pretty much shutting down status, taunt, trick, encore. Anything which could reduce game time or make the match up more pleasant is rendered useless just by his presence and if that were not enough He can be a win condition or a utility bot ontop of being a wall. Heck he cant even be trapped and is centralising the game around beating him. Somegames even protecting your clefable or victini wont help you because by the time they do kill sab the rest of your team weakened to the point it barely matters. I think at the very least sableye deserve's a suspect and should be suspected before metagross

This indirectly effects something else people have been calling for a suspect. Gothitelle/shadow tag. Personally I think Goth is not broken but rather she is a response to an otherwise broken pokemon in the same way Gen 4 scizor was to salamance. Before Sablyeye came gothitelle was barely seen. Yes she was good but suffered vs the Offensive teams and outright lost to any team with pursuit. Her stats are poor and she is extremly item reliant leaving her open to exploitation, getting lured by pokemon you would never think carried knock off or simply unable to come in because she would get 1 shoted. Any team with decent offencive presence could make her a liability and its something I feel still holds today. That is With the exception of Sableye. With the gremlin rendering most non-shadow tag anti stall tactic's useless gothitelle has proliferated as a natural answer to the archtype as people scramble to avoid repeated 100 turn games especially in the upper ladder. Even other powerful options like manaphy need checks killed first before it can sweep. Goth while not trapping sableye does beat the pokemon that would otherwise stop fairies and fires doing there job indirectly allowing the player to defeat the gremlin easier. It is clear sablyeye is atleast partly responsible for goths presence and that any Suspect on Gothitelle should only take place if and when Sableye gets a test.

I'll note now that while I sound anti-stall. Im not. I agree the archtype deserves t exist but not in the way sableye makes it so.

As for Potential retests. I'm all for Aegisslash or potentially even mega maw getting retested (ok Mega maw is slight bias lol) however Genesect and anything else can rot on the list for all I care. Aegis does have new Checks in ORAS and if nothing else clearing up the controversy of its last test would be good PR for Smogen. However we must remember its responsible for making nearly every psychic not named gothitelle irrelevent along with a huge chunk of other pokemon as well as being stupidly unpredictable so care must be taken into consideration when the retest happens. Mega maw is more of a personal desire but if smogen wants to another retest then maw is it. It has atleast when compared vs other ubers genuine weakness's like slow speed and over-reliance on sucker punch but is still extremly powerful and akin to a wrecking ball so I doubt it would comeback.

Anyway these are just my observations of the meta. Take what I said with a grain of salt and sorry if I typed to much

 

[Of Moose & Men]

What else needs to be said really?

Everyone has stated pretty much the same thing over the past few pages, and I feel no need to reiterate. What I will speak on behalf of is what I find to be the "3rd most questionable" thing in OU, and that's what has also been talked about but not in as much depth as I would like, Shadow Tag. . .

I've been against this ability since its creation, and will likely always be, and I'd like to think it's with good reason. We, some would say, try to keep the meta as healthy and as "balanced" as possible. Whether it's getting rid of a move that turns matches into coin flips, or Pokemon that straight up dominate the meta as a whole. However, there have only been a few instances where abilities are so universally hindering that we have actually banned the ability itself; i.e Moody, and weather setters in lower tiers. Because they are deemed "uncompetitive"/broken in nature. Yet, here we are, several years later, with still by far the most broken ability in the game. The ability to stop all momentum, remove control from the opponent, and do as I please. Mind you, there are Pokemon that are naturally open to these such as Skarmory to Magnezone, that need to carry shed shell so that they can remove the problem of being trapped (even this I'm a bit on the fence about). However, Shadow Tag is another beast entirely. Should I bring Shed Shell chansey from now on? It can trap anything that isn't a ghost type with no preparation except a free switch in. Most times in other instances where STag isn't present, this isn't too big a problem, however, it causes a great amount of problems for the opponent. Almost forcing them to either not kill off a Pokemon in fear of giving the trapper a free switch, which then leads to free set up, or forcing something out into an unfavorable match up. Shadow tag forces the opponent to have to play 2 moves ahead at all times making 50/50s, which everyone loves so much, tilted in a way that is just obnoxious.

In short, Shadow Tag removes control from the player (much like swagger did), and becomes a "wait to die" game in the right hands AKA "uncompetitive noncompetitive". I'd agree there are big problems at hand, but this is one that has been going on for far too long.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

One thing l would like to add is that if Aegislash were to be retested, now is a good time. Many new threats are prevalent that can check it, and whilst not everybody is of agreement that the meta is completely stable, the consensus seems to be this is the most stable that it's ever been.

The controversy behind the suspect test shouldn't be the main reason for the retest, but I think it's important that it's addressed as the vote was largely influenced last minute by pleading from authority figure players, which contributed to many last minute changes in votes that left a sour taste in the mouths of many users here.

Aegislash is a mon vulnerable to hype though and I think it's important people genuinely consider it from a metagame perspective without fanboyism, as many people are biased towards Aegi solely due to pleasing aesthetics. I liked UltiMario's post a lot except for the Genesect comments, because it's so much free momentum with 0 drawback to the point of being mindless.

I also agree that if Sableye is assessed users need to avoid tunnel vision; "it's checked by fairies" isn't an anti-ban argument when it's not that Sableye is blatantly overpowered as much as a mon that controls hazards like a deity.

Shadow tag I forgot to comment on but it depends on how 'competitive' is defined. I don't believe it to be overpowered but it's so mindless and compromises plays in the favour of the STag user (Gothitelle being the most uncompetitive imo). It has a detrimental effect just by being on the opposing team, as one misplay on a defensive mon means you've lost it with no play available to save you.

Edit: autocorrect correcting

 

[Escavalier]

Hey guys I just wanted to weigh in here because I feel as though there are a lot of misconceptions and exaggerations in this thread regarding Mega Sableye and I honestly don't feel like this particular discussion is heading in the right direction. Mega Sableye and its effects on the metagame in regards to common playstyles (mainly slower builds) are the centre of some of the most heated debate in regards to the OU tier right now, and it's easy to see why. Mega Sableye has the ability to make so many mons on the opposing team obsolete to the point where they are essentially a liability. As well as this, it has exceptional utility in the ability to bounce back opposing hazards and status, and more importantly beat common mons wielding these moves. A common complaint in regards to Mega Sableye is that it does so much more than any other defensive mon that we've seen in the XY-ORAS metagame, allowing freedom in the other team slots to check dangerous meta trends, while still providing a strong defensive backbone to handle more general threats.

An example of Sableye's usefulness is showcased in Branflakes325's popular semi-stall build, which innovates certain sets and mons that aren't conventionally used on "standard" stall to deal with the current metagame and what it brings with it, all due to the freedom that the use of Mega Sableye affords when it comes to hazard control and general utility.

Despite this, however, I am not in favour of a Sableye ban, though I would be interested in a suspect test just to gather community opinion. The reasoning behind this is that the meta has adapted in such a way that Mega Sableye itself can often be a hinderance, allowing powerful threats such as Mega Gardevoir, Specs Sylveon, SD Gliscor and DD Mega Charizard X in for free. Not only this, but it no longer has the liberty of beating most Stealth Rock users in the tier, with mons adapting in order to bypass Sableye. SD Lum Berry Garchomp, Earth Plate Landorus-Therian and Stealth Rock Mold Breaker Excadrill have all seen rises in usage due to their ability to set hazards on Sableye in one way or another, whether that be through bypassing Magic Bounce or threatening to 2HKO.

In all honesty, It really isn't that threatening to well-built teams in OU as it stands, but it could be considered suspect worthy sheerly because of how much it offers from a defensive spectrum.

on another note, mega metagross is fucking bullshit

 

[Draeden]

Oh cool, a thread to express our thoughts on the current metagame, that's really nice.

So, to start this off, I'm gonna talk about a couple 'Mons I personally feel deserve to be suspected: Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye

Note: Suspecting and banning 'Mons aren't the same thing, we can suspect without banning.

Mega Metagross: Mega Metagross is a huge threat in the meta right now. With 145 Attack, good ability in Tough Claws, and a solid speed tier at 110, which is currently the most important speed tier in OU, it has established itself as one of the top megas. It's easy to say that it's gotten to be too poweful, it's major problem with it's physical moves, bulky waters, are normally defeated by Grass Knot, while the few who aren't are defeated by Zen Headbutt. Another common stop in scarfed grounds have a hard time switching because of Ice Punch. Common physically bulky 'Mons such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory lose to Hammer Arm, though Skarmory can win if it's using Counter. Not to say it doesn't have effective stops, such as Victini, which walls all variants save for EQ, which isn't really common, and Bulky Mega Scizor, which is really useful in the meta right now. All in all, I'd say it warrants a suspect at the minimum, not sure whether I'd vote to ban or not though.

Mega Sableye: Ah, Mega Sableye. "Stall's Savior". This little gem(Pun not intended) has amazing bulk due to it's typing + useful defensive stats. A useful ability in Magic Bounce has made it quite useful for hazard discouragement, the ability to stay normal and abuse the Prankster for a turn at the minimum has also proven more than useful. It has solidified it's place at the top of the meta alongside Mega Metagross and Keldeo. It's a bit of a different case from Mega Metagross, however. Where Mega Metagross is ridiculously powerful, but Mega Sableye is more centralizing imo. It has few checks/counters, though they are powerful in the meta. Some of these have a tendency to get worn down pretty badly and lack solid recovery. I'd say that this may worth a suspect as well.

Continuing forward, a hot topic to be sure, Shadow Tag. I agree, Shadow Tag is a pain in the ass, and I agree it should be suspected because it removes switches which are a key component of play, especially for stall. I'm not against a suspect, but we have more important things to look at first.

I've seen Geopass as a topic in this thread as well, for good reasons I suppose. It might be worth looking at for a suspect, but it should be after Shadow Tag if so. No comments on it otherwise, as there isn't much to say really.

Personally I think the meta has hit a point where all playstyles are pretty viable and it's great to see this kind of meta. But there are clear problems we are facing in these major threats and they need to be dealt with.

 

[Inflikted]

Alright

Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye deserve to be suspected for the reasons that have been stated in various previous posts. In particular Mega Metagross makes building a good offensive team quite hard, as almost no pokemon in this kind of builds can switch in safely and beat it. So it basically invalidates that limbo between bulkier offensive builds leaning towards balance (that can afford to carry mons such as hippowdon / slowbro / mew / ecc) and hyper offense (that can bring in checks to metagross by sacking stuff).

When it comes to potential Genesect and particularly Aegislash retests...can you please not? Why do people seem to have forgotten how bad these things were to play against and to build for? I voted against the Aegislash ban, and after a few weeks I realized I was happy it was gone. Aegislash warped the metagame around itself in a way that can't be considered healthy in my opinion, forcing people to run multiple dedicated checks to take into account of the various sets Aegislash could run. You could use Mandibuzz + Heatran and feel safe, and then watch both get floored by the Naive flash cannon / sacred sword / shadow ball / shadow sneak set, or by a SD + head smash set. Aegislash not only made so many pokemon (psychic types in particular) borderline unviable with its typing on paper, but also performed insanely well in matches due to its unprecedented ability to take insanely powerful attacks and hit back hard (for example jolly LO bisharp's knock off only has a 18.8% chance to OHKO it from full...).
Why would we suspect Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye, and then bring back something that, ironically enough, has a combination of traits that reminds me of these two megas combined? (ability to take extremely strong attacks and hit hard, like Metagross + centralizing presence that's comparable to Sableye's).

Genesect should not be retested as well. It was the easiest momentum button ever, while also being extremely unpredictable in regards of the sets it could run (specially based scarf, physical scarf, shift gear, band, life orb, or even super niche stuff such as specs and sash). Its only universal counter Heatran is also one of the easiest mons to lure / wear down in existence.

So by bringing those two back we would see a decrease of the number of really viable pokemon in OU, but then we would have to deal with two outright busted threats with at least 4 viable sets each (that need to be taken into account in teambuilding, thus nullifying the decrease of variety in terms of mons) that are also difficult to figure out in team preview, introducing more guesswork in matches. And speaking of guesswork, do I also have to talk about King's Shield mindgames that decided between wins and losses? As much as I liked using Aegislash, I don't miss it. In my opinion, the "need" to retest Aegi and Genesect in OU comes more from boredom (we want more toys to play with, and these two were fun to use...) than from actual need.

Gothitelle needs to be tested. I already expressed my thoughts in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-metagame-discussion.3521201/page-42#post-5968466
even if this post by Doughboy is probably better: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...od-the-bad-and-the-ugly.3526250/#post-5963756

Geopass is a stupid ass strat for players that decide that the pure ladder ranking matters more than fun and skill, but it's not relevant enough to have priority in a discussion like this one, at least for now.

 

[Teeny Victory]

Just gonna chip in with a short post here, as I'm on mobile atm.
I think that sableye-m deserves a suspect test.
There are quite a few things that make it broken, like it's amazing defensive typing, bulk, ability (both post and pre mega) and it's sweet af move pool (its really the combination of all these traits that breaks it thiugh)
However to me the thing that breaks sable is that there is 0 opportunity cost to using it on a stall team, as nothing competes for its slot on that archetype and it glues the whole playstyle together.
This is absolutely huge for me, as the only thing holding every single other mega back is that there is valid team slot competition for them, however this is not the case for sable.
Like, nobody can deny that without sable, stall would be MUCH less viable than it is atm , as sable literally glues the playstyle together.
So yeah, everyone else above me has said good stuff, and I don't want to repeat them and sound like a broken record.

 

[Prinz]

I don't know what's going on but I think that you guys are really overstimating some mons. I have even read a post that mentioned Houndoom as a suspect set, like wtf? I don't really get the reasons why it should be a relevant mon in the OU tier in the first place (it has some niches but it's far to be a really good mon). You are also overstimating a bit Sableye as well, I guess. The point is that while Sableye is a really solid mon, and it's easily splashable in any Stall / Balanced building, there are too many ways THAT AREN'T EXTREMELY NICHE TOO, to beat it like Azumarill, Altaria, Lopunny, Clefable, Diancie, both Zards, SD Gliscor, SD Talon, Mega Gyarados, Gardevoir, Manaphy, Volcarona, and the list could probably go on for a bit more as well. I think there are so many answers to Mega Sableye (notice that they would be good mons even if Mega Sableye didn't exist), that it really doesn't deserve a suspect. Another thing to mention imo is that Sableye is really easily to wear down as well since it lacks Leftovers and that there are SR setters that can actually beat it like SD Lum Garchomp, SR Landorus-I and Earth Plate Landorus-T, it's true that it beats most part of SR users, but the OU tier adapted in a way doesn't very favorable for Mega Sableye and while it's a great mon for sure, I really doubt it deserves a suspect anyways.

Also why are you considering suspecting Gothitelle? I mean Shadow Tag is cool and stuff, but imo you guys are a bit overstimating that thing as well. If you use Choice Specs or CM + Rest Gothitelle, you are almost useless against offense and if you are using Choice Scarf Goth you aren't doing much against Stall (Trick is still a thing, but it obviously doesn't work as well as CS or CM + Rest Goth against Stall), so it's basically matchup dependant. I agree that Shadow Tag is a great stuff to have on a team, but Gothitelle isn't exactly very good to use it at best, also don't you guys think that if it was so good, it had a bit more usage in SPL as well? Top players usually use the best things they can use and that are at the top of the tier, but just give a look on SPL usage statistics and Gothitelle hasn't been played by anyone as of now I think? And we are almost in midseason so yeh I don't think it's as good as you think, and it barely deserves a suspect.

Regarding the other things, I would like to see a Metagross suspect, as it's really threatning to all HO, Balanced and Stall teams just using its coverage moves, it's also bulky as well, has a good typing, and has a good setup move in Agility. Definitely I can see it being suspected tbh.

Finally, I don't think we should even test again Genesect and Aegislash in the OU metagame as it really doesn't change much respect XY OU for these threats (inb4 Lopunny beats Aegislash, no KS forces you on a 50/50 anyways), and imo they just would be unbalanced and too strong for the ORAS OU tier.

PS: I don't care much about the Geopass thing as it isn't really relevant and almost has 0 usage in any serious tour games, but if you feel like it's very important just go ahead and ban it, I guess.

 

[Luckstard.]

To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, the current metagame is just fun and enjoyable.

Talking about Metagross-Mega, sure it's a threat, but I don't really think it's broken. It's really strong in the current metagame, no doubt, but it doesn't break the metagame like Salamence-Mega did.

On Sableye-Mega it's annoying to play against him, but I don't see it as a broken thing as well. There is a lot of different way to deal with it, including burning him, lum berry mons etc

Shadow Tag / GeoPass are not relevant enough in my opinion. Playing Goth is a deadweight against offensive team (or maybe the only way he can be useful is trapping Keldeo locked on Ssword). GeoPass isn't like SmashPass in the past? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

On retest stuff, I would love to see an Aegislash retest. ORAS gave us Lopunny and Sableye to deal with him "more easily", and it will reduce the impact of Metagross because without EQ, Aegislash is near of being safe. It might be a bad idea (since we can develop theorymoning to "Aegislash kills bulky psychic mons which are the best answer to Metagross right now", but it's theorymoning), but it could be interesting to see it.

I'm full against Genesect and Mawile-Mega retest. They were too much cancerous.

 

[ab15]

I read the thread a bunch of times and the argument about Mega Sableye and Mega Metagross are interesting but all over the place with not much calcs or info. I have compiled the Pros and cons of each mon that is being said but there is a hard way to quantify who has the better pros/ worse cons. Saying "it could 2hko most of the entire tier" does not really help that much if *insert who could do it but is not broken* could do it, however Greninja did and is banned bec of it...

It would help if the pros and cons are ranked or numberd so we could understand them better.

I listed the ones that brought something new, if I missed something please write, no prob it could be added but this is what I found so far...

For suspect on Mega Sableye:

1. Works well against a multitude of types of teams, stall balanced ect.
2. Hard to take down/phase bec of Magic Bounce, Prankster, CM, Willow Wisp, T-wave and Recover.
3. CM set destroys unprepared teams.
4. Hard to 2 hit-ko.
5. Helps team by removing SR.
6. A lot of the common Fairies used to beat it are either worn down fairly easily (Azumarill), or trapped by Gothitelle (Clefable).
7. #2 might be a big one.

Against suspect on Mega Sableye:

1. NO Greninja => less faries, more Sableye counters.
2. Unaware Clef, Charizard X, SD Talonflame, Heatran, Manaphyor, Mega Gardevoir. Hell, get something bulky in on it with a sub like Mega Gyarados.
3. Unaware / Clafable. I think a skill swap Gallade is too gimmicky??
4. Needed for stall to be viable .
5. Toxic + synchronize.
6. Mold Breaker.
7. .... I know there is more than this guys... but does it need more?

For suspect on Mega Megagross:

1. The old (new) it could choose it's counters argument.
2. Switchins cannot come in consistently.
3. 2HKOs bulky mons with neutral stab.
4. Tough Claws + MM + Bulk
5. It has the bulk to even live a super effective earthquake from scarf landorus-t (not that you should stay in on it) which is just insane for a pokemon which runs no bulk investment.
6. High 110 base speed lets it outspeed the majority of the metagame.
7. Could snowball with boosts. bec of its bulk speed and power, miss predicting is not the end of the would so it could continue on sweeping/powering up.

Against suspect on Mega Megagross: (a liitle more straight forward that mega Sableye)

1. Chip damage.
2. Speed, while great, is not to the point where nothing outspeeds.
3. It has viable counters (Skarm, Mandibuzz, Slowbro if it lacks Grass Knot) and lacks the versatility and sweeping potential.
4. Mandibuzz + Foul play.
5. Burn/Status bait. (especially against Sableye...)

Source;
Interesting points I found are in bold.

For suspect on Mega Sableye:

Hide

Sableye is the defining force of stall. Its insane defenses, lack of weaknesses, and Magic Bounce are all things that make it incredibly difficult to handle if played right. it honestly renders things obsolete. for example, SR ferro is 100% deadweight against sab stall, because sab switches in for free every single time. THis applies to other Pokemon, such as Bulky SR Chomp, Lead Mamo, and Lead Terrakion (the latter two do not exist anymore). Additionally, it has a nasty CM set that is capable of beating many of its usualy checks, including Clefable if Clefable is Magic Guard and lacks CM itself. Its quite ridiculous how well sab can perform against pretty much any playstyle and still be successful in some way or another no matter what.

Could be played against a multitude of types of teams, stall ballanced ect.

Magic bounce allows it to avoid taunt, toxic and will-o-wisp (chip damage), thunder wave (because you know bad players get hax :^)) and etc. Not only to add, but access to prankster will-o-wisp , recover and calm mind before it mega evolves is helpful. Sableye is an excellent counter to most of the mons higher up on the viability rankings (the famous lando-t and megagross). From first hand experience, if you know how to play sableye and build a good enough team around him to eliminate threats such as mega lopunny and altaria etc etc, then it is a much bigger threat than metagross. limited counters in tier, magic bounce, bulk, access to calm mind. sableye is much scarier than metagross at the moment. Know how to play him and it can be a hassle.

Hard to take down bec of Magic Bounce, Prankster, CM, Willow Wisp, T-wave ,Recover.

The only pokemon/ability I am sure it needs a suspect is Metagross.
Mega Sableye is arguably the most centralizing force in the metagame. It is not the boss of stall because it can wall many things, but because it helps stall get past many annoying stuff like hazards and taunt way too easily. The bulk, typing and ability is a very good combination and the added movepool is enough for Mega Sableye to be very easy to use it with little risk and a high reward. The CM set is one of the easiest win buttons if the opponent lacks counters for it (others being CM Mega Slowbro and Mega Metagross) and even the counters an usual team has for Sableye (Clefable, Azumarill, Manaphy, Mega Gyarados) can be worn down because Mega Sableye gives the team an advantage in hazards and status. Not to forget Mega Sableye can also be used on Semi-Stall or Balance, where it still gives the team very much utility for such low risk.

Mainly on the CM set being OP.

I definitely agree that Mega Sableye deserves a suspect. It's excellent typing and very good bulk makes it difficult to 2HKO. Moreover, it's resistant to status and immune to phasing. A lot of the common Fairies used to beat it are either worn down fairly easily (Azumarill), or trapped by Gothitelle (Clefable). Whereas I do not believe Shadow Tag is broken in its own right, Sableye-M, which walls a large percentage if not most of the metagame (thanks to CM/Wisp and it's bulk), benefits from Shadow Tag teammates to trap its few checks. Finally, it is worth noting that Mega Sableye prevents your opponent from setting up rocks for fear of Magic Bounce. Hazards are crucial to wearing down the opposing team, so hazard prevention is an extremely potent tool that puts the Mega Sableye user at an advantage.

Hard to 2 hit-ko, helps team by removing SR.

Against suspect on Mega Sableye:

Hide

Sableye is powerful, before anybody mentions it, but it's stopped by one of the most deadly wall breakers in the game, Mega Gardevoir. Specs Sylveon is also becoming a lot more popular (That also has a bit to do with Greninjas as well).

I can see where people are coming from on Mega Sableye, although as of now I wouldn't vote to ban it since it is checked by every relevant Fairy.

NO Greninja => less faries, more Sableye counters.

Sableye is super annoying, but it isnt unstoppable either. One answer I really like is skill swap Gallade. It bounces back Sableye's will-o-wisp, which then turns Knock off into a 2hko. Sableye is able to do some damage back, but it gets shut down hard. Also, there is Clefable keeping him in check. it doesnt annihilate Sable fasho, but she does make his life difficult, and she can take multiple approaches to the situation.

Unaware + clafable. I think skill swap Gallade is too gimmicky??

I honestly never found Sableye much of a threat when teambuilding to be quite honest. Maybe it's just me but I find it easy to get something that beats it on the team like Unaware Clef, Charizard X, SD Talonflame, Heatran or Mega Gardevoir. Hell, get something bulky in on it with a sub like Mega Gyarados and it can't touch you.

More counters...

The reason Sableye is the backbone of stall is because doing all that itself is the only way the rest of Stall can viably mix itself up. There's very few Pokemon that can form solid cores that could cover Sableye's additional jobs AND reliably outlast the kind of offensive threats Stall needs to be ready to handle. Sableye takes the secondary jobs on so the rest of the team can devote itself to the type synergy needed.

Needed for stall. However...

stall still has mega alt/mega bro, so its not dead as a playstyle per se, its just gonna be unfavorable compared to offense

Stall is more than the archetypal Mega Sableye team that you are referring to. There are plenty of other bulky mons to build around like Mega Venu and Regenerators. Even with Mega Sableye, stall has serious trouble dealing with Manaphy, Mega Gyara, etc. I'm not in favor of a Mega Sableye ban but to say that stall would be unviable without it is inaccurate.

For suspect on Mega Megagross:

Hide

After both using it and facing it several times, I have found that there are very few consistent switchins to this monster. Bulky waters can be stopped by grass knot, many physically bulky steel types can be stopped by earthquake or hammer arm, and the extremely rare thunderpunch can 2HKO Skarmory. 80/150/110 defenses keep it from getting revenge killed easily, and its high 110 base speed lets it outspeed the majority of the metagame. Nothing can switch in on all of its possible attacks comfortably and consistently. Megagross does have a few switchins depending on which coverage move it lacks, but even so, these switchins cannot come in consistently.

The old (new) counter it's counter argument.

This monster imo needs to go. It's raw power is just ridiculous as it 2hkos bulky mons with neutral stab like rotom-w with zen headbutt. While some other mons may possess this quality Mmeta also makes the now preferred speed tier of base 110 and has a stupid amount of bulk to go along with all these characteristics. Meta also puts you in spots similar to greninja where you have to play guessing games trying to determine what coverage moves it's running in an attempt to effectively counter or check it... no true counters to meta besides a handful of select mons so imo this beast is pretty unhealthy and should get tested asap.
g

2HKOs bulky mons with neutral stab. fast... really fast.

Being extremely fast, having one of the strongest Attack stats in the game factoring in Tough Claws and strong priority in Bullet Punch, there are very few things keeping it from being top class. Having an insane Defense stat as well makes it pretty much impossible to scratch. Clear Body is also an awesome ability before Mega Evolving, preventing things like Landorus from stopping it.

Tough Claws MM + I think that cuz Landorus is EVERYWHERE Clear Body really is a big plus.
+ BULK.

Mega Metagross' wallbreaking powers are insane and there are only a few good switchins. Assuming Mega Metagross doesn't run Grass Knot (which it shouldn't in my opinion) the only hard stop is Slowbro, which only fits on more defensive orientated teams. It has the bulk to even live a supereffective earthquake from scarf landorus-t (not that you should stay in on it) which is just insane for a pokemon which runs no bulk investment. Not forgetting there is also a move called Pursuit in Metagross' moveset which helps trapping Victini and Lati@s. Pokemon like Hippowdon can switch in on some moves but often still end up losing because Earthquake doesn't kill Metagross and Meteor Mash has a 20% to boost the attack stat, which becomes almost 50% after 3 Meteor Mashes. Outside of some obvious scarfers offense can bring up against Mega Metagross you also have Talonflame, Victini, Manaphy and Manectric (really use this thing more often) but, outside of Talonflame, they are often not the biggest problems for a offensive team to handle. Prediction argument can also be used against Mega Metagross, but unlike Greninja and Mega Heracross, who also both need to predict often, it both has the bulk [which ninja lacks] and the speed [which hera lacks] to have a safe back-up if it makes a misprediction.

Could snowball... however bec of bulk speed and power, mispredicting is not the end of the would and it could continue on rolling.
Threats could be countered easily.

Against suspect on Mega Megagross:

Hide

Megagross, while incredibly strong, is not unstoppable. For example, its smacked in the face by foul play from Mandi, which is by NO means an otherwise useless mon.
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(not to mention, Mandi can roost off the damage to buy some time)

Mandibuzz.

Gross, on the other hand, I do not find OP. Suspect worthy? Yes, definitely. But its not broken. What makes it suspect worthy tho is that it has a great speed tier with great offensive and defensive prowess, thanks to tough claws, its movepool, and typing. It hits really hard and can fuck over its switch ins with a coverage move, but that in itself doesnt make it OP. Most teams carry checks to it naturally, and getting the chip damage needed to kill it is not insanely difficult. Additionally, its speed, while great, is not to the point where nothing outspeeds it (like in the case of Ninja for example), so revenge killing it is somewhat easy after about 20% prior damage, depending on the mon. Additionally, its used to check a lot of things, such as Clef, Latios, Azu, etc, so getting this prior damage isnt as insanely difficult as Ive seen some people say. Its bulk is great, and theres no denying that, but to say its unkillable against offense is nothign short of being blatantly false.

Gets chipped easily and not lighting fast.

Mega Metagross I don't see as potentially broken at all. It's just really good. It has viable counters (Skarm, Mandibuzz, Slowbro if it lacks Grass Knot) and lacks the versatility and sweeping potential of Greninja.

 

[Redolent]

On retesting:

I don't understand why people are talking about retesting Aegislash and Genesect. If we are going to bring Ubers back to OU for testing, shouldn't we choose Pokemon that perform worse in ORAS OU, rather than better?

Earlier the argument was used that Genesect would be good to bring back because it would allow the use of an offensive pivot other than Landorus-T. If anything it would merely supersede Landorus-T's place as the best scarfer in the tier, therefore not really increasing diversity overall. As for Aegislash, again I'm not seeing why it would be any less centralising now.

ORAS OU is really not that different to XY OU. There are only a handful of new threats, and since they are mostly Megas, often teams are 5/6 the same as XY even where new Megas are used. If an Uber performed very badly against many or all of these new threats, then there would be a good justification for retesting. I'll go over some new Megas and see how they perform against Aegislash and Genesect.

Hide

Mega Metagross: This thing gets destroyed by Aegislash. Bringing back Aegislash would undoubtedly lower MegaGross's viability to the point where it would probably not be considered for a suspect test, but then we would merely be replacing it with a greater evil. Aegislash is, if anything, more worthy of Ubers in a metagame full of Mega Metagross. Genesect also has a favourable match-up, resisting both its STABs and potentially hitting it with a Download boosted Flamethrower. So yes, while bringing these two back would bring Mega Metagross into balance, it would not address the imbalance on the other side.

Mega Sableye: Easily worn down by repeated switches into Genesect's U-turn. It is a good Aegislash check, but it must run a specially defensive spread, and then becomes vulnerable to Swords Dance sets. So it's not the hard counter we would ideally need.

Mega Lopunny: Genesect can switch into any move except High Jump Kick and threaten with Download-boosted Steel moves. As for Aegislash, Mega Lopunny does do well in the sense that it is one of the few Pokemon Aegislash has little hope of switching into. However, its match-up is not so clearly in Lop's favour in a 1v1 scenario, as Mega Lopunny must run Substitute in order to get around King's Shield mindgames. As a result its viability is potentially reduced overall as it cannot run Ice Punch for Gliscor/Lando or Power-up Punch for wallbreaking.

Mega Diancie, Mega Beedrill, Mega Gallade, Mega Slowbro, Mega Audino, Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Mega Latis, Mega Glalie, Contrary Serperior: These Pokemon have a poor match-up vs Aegislash, often relying on non-STAB coverage moves that do not break through Aegislash's high defenses. Many, like Diancie, Beedrill, Sceptile and Altaria have trouble with Genesect too.

Since Aegislash performs so well against so many new ORAS threats, it's hard to see how it would be any less centralising in the current metagame than before. Aegislash in many ways does everything that Jirachi, Scizor and Mega Metagross can do in terms of defensive synergy, except with better offensive capabilities. When Hoopa Unbound is released, then we will have a Pokemon that Aegislash really struggles with to weigh it up against, but I can't see anything that would make Genesect worth retesting.

I'm not sure anything has fallen in viability enough to be considered for retesting. But it seems to me that there is a Pokemon that does have a terrible match up against many ORAS Pokemon: Deoxys, especially its defensive forme. Deoxys-D has such trouble with Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie that it's questionable whether it's even the most reliable suicide lead any more. It doesn't really threaten Serperior outside of Thunder Wave, and is set up bait for it if it lacks that move. Mega Beedrill can nearly OHKO it with U-turn (or OHKO with X-Scissor), then bring in a Defogger or Rapid Spinner to finish the job and threaten hazard removal - Starmie for example. Mega Sharpedo is one of the few Pokemon that OHKOs it without set-up, and outspeeds it too. It gets set up on by increasingly common Substitute users like CM Keldeo. The entire playstyle that it supports so well (HO) has lost viability without Greninja and Aegislash. Deoxys-S is probably still pretty OP in the absence of Scarf Ninja, but it loses to Gallade, Metagross, Sableye and (I think) Diancie.

I'm not saying we should retest Deoxys (though we should consider Deoxys-D if Sableye and Diancie are here to stay), but it is a valid example of an Uber Pokemon that really does do worse in ORAS OU. Only those Pokemon could be justified for retesting. Reshiram is another example as it does badly against Altaria, but like Aegislash it probably matches up too well against many others to be right for retesting.

 

[Taehl]

I disagree with M-Sableye being the only thing holding stall together. I've seen a lot people who used stall or semi-stall without M-Sableye succesfully. Not to mention several people in the ou top 10 used stall without M-Sableye to get there (I know this doesn't say that much, but it's something). There are other megas that can be used for stall and work well too, like M-Venasaur, M-Slowbro, M-Altaria or even M-Charizard-X.

 

[Aquaslash]

Gene and Aegis ought to be retested because the margin of victory was super narrow. Less than three votes for each, and there's the whole controversy behind the Aegis vote anyway. If Sableye stays, then Deo-D ought to be retested as well. He's pretty much setup fodder for both Sableye and Diancie.

I'd say any retests need to happen before the new suspects though. Aegis will definitely have an impact on how much Metagross runs things.

 

[Miridy]

If Sableye stays, then Deo-D ought to be retested as well. He's pretty much setup fodder for both Sableye and Diancie.

That's not true at all, Deoxys-d/s learns Skill Swap if he really wants to get away with Mega Sableye, and even if Sableye totally stopped deo it's still a mega, it cannot be added on every team.
Deos are fine where they are.

 

[BasedCannon]

I can't believe that I completely spaced to discuss it, but I guess another post won't hurt.

Re-testing Aegislash:
For a while now, I've actually stared at the list of ubers and wondered which one's could come back. It's led me to run at least a hundred scenarios through my head and each time the stand-out Pokemon has been Aegi. Now, before I go on, let's look at some of the points as to why Aegislash was originally banned.

• Aegislash is an extremely effective Pokemon and has very high risk:reward output.
• Aegislash has multiple different sets that are all effective.
• It has numerous sets, most of which are handled differently. If you guess the purpose wrong, you're often losing at least 1 Pokemon
• it introduces literal arbitrary decisions, namely in the form of frequent 50/50s with King's Shield. This is so important because the 50/50 decision IS NOT an even trade for user and opponent, which people seem to be arguing it is. Remember, using King's Shield makes Aegislash have 150 defenses again...meaning the user has the 50/50 as well as 150 defenses. The opponent only has the 50/50. Yes, the user might guess wrong and the opponent "can set up," but this is a specific scenario and dependent on the 50/50, not independent of it.

The biggest reason on this list that I've heard since the original suspect is because Aegislash can make a game come down to a 50/50. However even with the versatility of Aegislash and the potential to set-up, Aegislash still has hard counters in the tier to threaten it and scare it out. If it comes down to a one-v-one situation, sure the 50/50's could be the deciding factor, but how many times does that happen in the tier now? If player a does this then I lose, but if they don't do this then I win? I know from my frequent laddering that this happens quite often with Pokemon we haven't banned or suspected. In fact this scenario has nothing really to do with the Pokemon itself but with the player and their predictions. That itself does not make this Pokemon broken. Yes, it's a powerful Pokemon, but we have plenty of those running around in the tier now. In fact, if anything, Aegislash is probably more threatened now than it was then. With ORAS OU, we have Landorus-Therian running rampant which threatens Aegislash; we have m-Lopunny with Scrappy to threaten Aegislash; we have Mega Charizard X which threatens Aegislash; we have plenty of counters and checks to keep this Pokemon in line.

At the end of the day, if anything should be done, I do think we should re-suspect test Aegislash because it's not as threatening as it was. It's just a very solid Pokemon that has very common counters and checks.

 

[Redolent]

That's not true at all, Deoxys-d/s learns Skill Swap if he really wants to get away with Mega Sableye, and even if Sableye totally stopped deo it's still a mega, it cannot be added on every team.
Deos are fine where they are.

The reason Deoxys-D gets banned while Mew sticks around: Deoxys-D doesn't have to stop at rocks. Mew can Taunt, lay hazards, it's faster, it's about as bulky, its typing is the same, but because it cannot lay down up to 4 hazard layers nobody has ever claimed it is broken as a lead.

Deoxys-D therefore needs to run both Spikes and Stealth Rock in order to be worth using at all, so you are down two moves immediately. If Skill Swap were to become standard, that means Deoxys has just one move left - and it has to choose between Superpower, Taunt, Magic Coat, Thunder Wave, Night Shade, Psycho Boost, Mirror Coat, Recover. Of these, many would argue Taunt is essential to prevent your opponent steamrolling you with a boosting/sub lead or setting their own hazards, so that's your whole non-attacking set. Skill Swap doesn't even always work because the Sableye/Diancie player can choose not to Mega on the first turn and get off a free hit, prediction becomes important. The player can switch out their Magic Bouncer and threaten to bring it back in at any time, again requiring the Deoxys player to have good prediction in order to prevent wasted turns (or worse, reflected hazards that Deo cannot remove).

Overall Deoxys-D is significantly less reliable in ORAS OU. It was banned for being the perfect suicide lead, almost impossible in KO on turn 1 and carrying one or two moves designed to cripple its counters - it is less capable of capitalising on both of those traits now as it fares poorly against several new threats (not just the bouncers. Sharpedo, Beedrill too and it needs Thunder Wave for the likes of Metagross, Altaria, Gyarados, Gallade, Serperior).

Basically, it's still good, but it would be stretched thinner in the current meta than it ever was in XY.
No Skill Swap: Bouncers 100% counter
No Thunder Wave: Dragon Dancers can set up for free, as can naturally fast sweepers and Speed boosters (Rock Polish Landorus-T, Agility Metagross). These are Pokemon that specifically perform well against HO
No Superpower: struggles with Bisharp and Tyranitar
No Taunt: struggles with Calm Mind Pokemon (Keldeo sets up easily, even Mega Bro can), rival hazard leads, Defoggers like Mandibuzz, probably more

Then there are Pokemon that could naturally beat it even before it was banned, with the exception of Aegislash they are mostly still around (Crawdaunt, NP Thundurus, Adamant Scolipede, Gengar).


It might still be broken but on paper it is weakened enough to warrant testing, in my opinion.

 

[Sun King]

Is anyone out there as happy with the metagame as I am?

I think that while, yes, we do have a few superstars, they're more than manageable. I think that this is the most enjoyable metagame I have played since I joined at the end of BW2. All playstyles are viable, and we have an excellent and diverse metagame!

One thing that DOES intrigue me is te prospect of retesting Aegislash. I think, as has been said by others, NOW is the time to do it. We have a whole host of viable answers to it, and it might prove to add another component to our metagame.

 

[Celticpride]

Overall Deoxys-D is significantly less reliable in ORAS OU. It was banned for being the perfect suicide lead, almost impossible in KO on turn 1 and carrying one or two moves designed to cripple its counters - it is less capable of capitalising on both of those traits now as it fares poorly against several new threats (not just the bouncers. Sharpedo, Beedrill too and it needs Thunder Wave for the likes of Metagross, Altaria, Gyarados, Gallade, Serperior).

Basically, it's still good, but it would be stretched thinner in the current meta than it ever was in XY.
No Skill Swap: Bouncers 100% counter
No Thunder Wave: Dragon Dancers can set up for free, as can naturally fast sweepers and Speed boosters (Rock Polish Landorus-T, Agility Metagross). These are Pokemon that specifically perform well against HO
No Superpower: struggles with Bisharp and Tyranitar
No Taunt: struggles with Calm Mind Pokemon (Keldeo sets up easily, even Mega Bro can), rival hazard leads, Defoggers like Mandibuzz, probably more

Magic Bouncers help, but where the good Magic Bouncers are Megas, that causes significant centralization. As far as OHKOing it, Mega Houndoom and Mega Absol are as niche as Sharpedo and Beedrill and they existed in XY. That's not even mentioning that Beedrill is outsped on turn 1, and Sharpedo prefers to stay in it's regular form as long as possible to abuse Speed Boost. With regard to Thunder Wave crippling set-up sweepers, set-up sweepers existed in XY as well. Char-X, Mega Tyranitar and others could set-up in XY in Deo-D's face if it didn't have Thunder Wave. Outside of the Mega Magic Bouncers (who you shouldn't be forced to use to counteract Deo-D), there weren't really any elements that were introduced in ORAS that didn't exist in similar forms in XY. The rest of the argument you presented about dropping supporting moves? Outside of Skill Swap, that existed in the suspect thread. Still enough to ban it. The problem is that if you guess wrong, you are looking at 2+ layers of hazards. The other thing you seem to be ignoring is that Deo-D has powerful, hard-hitting teammates. It doesn't have to carry Superpower if you are packing a Genie. You don't have to worry about SubCM Keldeo if you have Latios. If it looks like they have a set-up sweeper that they are eager to send out, send out your usual answer to that sweeper. The idealism that you have to lead with Deo-D is inherently flawed in that any well built Deo-D hyper offense has a solution if the typical deterrents present themselves. Deo-D also has the bulk to set-up hazards mid-game if it doesn't lead, making things that can't break it liabilities. Deo-D itself is eminently beatable. The problem is Deo-D combined with the typical gang of HO mons (Bisharp, Thundy-I, Landorus-I, Latios, Keldeo) is very difficult to stop.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Alright, let's talk about this Aegislash retest everyone is wanting. Firstly, what was introduced that would make it less centralizing than it was in XY? I'm seriously asking. . . What? One or two things? Now, let's weigh that up against the Pokemon that will see a major drop yet again were it introduced. . .

Aegi's problem wasn't just forcing 50/50s, Aegi's problem was a number of things. We will once again, HAVE to prepare for it or learn to take a loss, we will once again have the best plug n' play Pokemon around, and we will once again have the most easy to use Pokemon to ever hit OU (the latter being of some importance). If we want to limit teambuilding all over again, fine, but I'm not one for digression.