np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[LMay]

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 232+ Def Victini: 174-206 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It's not really a good Check because you can't switch in and M-Gross outspeed so you can just RK after taking a EQ , it's not really good , ScarfTini is better at checking Gross because he outspeed and OHKO back with V-Create.

M-Metagross need a BAN IMO because of the strong immediate power , speed , bulk , and way too good movepool (Ice punch , Thunder punch , GK , Hammer arm , ZE , BP , Pursuit , Agility , Meteor mash) , Tough claws is a free LO and it's way too powerfull for the meta , i don't want to bring a bulky M-Scizor (which is the ONLY true counter and it's a mega) to beat this thing , Brongzong can do well too against Gross but I don't know if he is really viable in OU and he has no heal (it's like when Weezing was played to beat Mawile in OU , and I don't want to limit the teambuilding , so ban this spider).

 

[Slimmer]

I'd like to say that I think MegaGross is a predominant force in this metagame not only for itself, cuz ok, it's strong but it's not outright broken as McM said, and its point of force are:
1) Excellent ratio staying power/offensive power
+
2) One of few really good offensive Steel typing makin it extremely viable
Thanks to its stats + typing + ability, it can take several hits from a bunch of offensive mons, outspeeds most of them (that can deal it several damages while fasters usually don't) and being a problem also for more defensive teams, tho stall can quite easily threaten it;

3) Quite good coverage
Yes, it can go itself through some of its checks with GKnot or coverage but as Bluwing said, tipical dual defensive cores can deal with it (remember Keldeo BW? It was defined "broken" due to its possible coverage but things like Jellicent + Amoonguss could deal with it while having other functions for the team so not fully dedicated to it), so I can see a Gliscor+Ferrothorn+BulkyWater having no issues at all with it (unless running Ice Punch + Hammer Arm+GKnot but hey seriously?).
"Hey but Greninja was banned for its coverage, why MegaGross can't be for the same reason?"
Things are actually different because Greninja could threat almost every defensive core depending of its coverage that could run every of its moves, instead of mons like Keldeo, Landorus-I and MegaGross itself that choosing a certain move they renounce to deal with other stuff that they could threat with another; in shorts they have 4MSS (sry if my english sux but I hope it's clear what I want to explain, isn't it?)

4) Its force as answer of main threats of "past" metagame (post-greninja ban) that made it being one of main current meta threats:
warning: it could seem theorymon but it's just a (personal) analysis of past metagame and not discussion on future one!
Remember early ORAS when everyone tried new toys as MegaGross itself, MegaMence (gone for good), MegaSlowbro (judged a bit worse than expected), MegaSableye (judged a bit better than expected), Mega Beedrill, MegaAltaria, MegaGallade, MegaLopunny, MegaDiancie?
Now, focus on MegaLopunny/MegaGallade, that initially dominated metagame because Greninja scared fairy usages so Azumarill/Clefable/Diancie itself were worse in the past. Even MegaGross itself was worse due to Greninja lol to the point to drop the "quickban hype" after MegaMence as many thought with the statistics leak pre-release.
So metagame was: fighting type, fairy type, greninja, sableye, steel type (megagross + scizor usually non-mega because waste of megaslot)
note that both fights and sableye are weak to fairies in general
greninja balanced the thing (also for megagross)
after the (rightful) ban, things started to go out of hand
Fairies got a huge buff once that they were the main stuff to opposing megafights offenses and megasableye defensives
so MegaGross as STEEL type was the perfect answer to this: DarkPulse Greninja was gone, it could threat stuff like fairies indeed (better than the "passive" Heatran and the slower Scizor), latwins, a semidecent answer for fasters fighting, coverage can threat stuff like grounds/waters/steels ecc
so it "balanced" the meta which is still crap tbh.
Looking more in the past, we can see how really good is Steel type, since their main representatives were suspected and banned: Aegislash and MegaMawile. Adding that their function as "antifairy" was one of their only few positive qualities for metagame, they were banned for their excessive impact on the metagame caused by other features.
The main consequence was a better meta because, obviously, dealing with them was an ass for building and playing in general but at the same time it caused a huge amount of usage of fairies: Azumarill, MegaGarde, Clefable.
Finally going to current meta, situation wont be different, and actually right now isn't, because MegaGross is so used (quite only) because it checks fairies and having really good utility.

I think main problem of ORAS are fairies, and suspecting every good steel (even not outright broken) seems not the best solution imo
MegaGross isn't outright broken? So the ban is to "fix up" meta ok? But what if this makes things go worse?
Ladder suspect would answer to this.
Let's see.

 

[Patolegend!]

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Victini cannot manually switch into Metagross without being 2hkoed by EQ (though rare). I'd say Victini is a check.

Mate, pretty sure scarf Victini outspeeds Metagross.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that although Metagross' typing is excellent defensively (apart from those annoying new weaknesses to Dark and Ghost), offensively it's lacking. In addition to this, due to it's low BP moves, it doesn't actually hit as hard as other wallbreakers:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 253-300 (74.1 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I agree, that base 110 speed makes it a fearsome opponent and an excellent pokemon, but at the end of the day, it has to Mega Evolve to get that speed, and base 70 is not that impressive. Then there are common cores that it can't get past due to the combination of coverage moves that it carries (no-one would run GK and Ice Punch for example, which allows it to get past Lando-T and Slowbro).

If we look at Mega Meta 1v1 vs every pokemon then a ban is obviously favored. Nevertheless, people are saying that "it can choose what to cover depending on its teammates", but then discounting any argument that involves Metagross against any defensive core. At the end of the day, as so many people have said, its a team game.

Finally, I want to emphasise the point that with its excellent defensive typing, Mega Meta is not generally used as a late game sweeper (apart from the Agility set, which is easier to wall) but as a wall-breaker and pivot, and will be taking hits throughout the match. This is made even more likely by its incapacity to OHKO certain 'mons (even if it does 2HKO the tier), which can status it.

When it has taken damage, there are a number of revenge killers used not just for Mega Meta that can revenge it. LO Bisharp, Mega Lopunny, and Lando-T. This comes back to the point about a team scenario, but in a realistic battle situation, and not just Theorymon, Metagross is more easily managed than a lot of people are stating here. Not saying that is easy to manage, but just that it really isn't broken.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

Landorus-Therian

So, here's how the standard Mega Metagross set (originally Hasty, but I'll give it Naive to make its Defense better, as it's facing a physical attacker; 252 Atk/Spe with 4 SpD, Meteor Mash/EQ/Zen Headbutt/Grass Knot) fares against the abundance of Landorus-T on the ladder; there are three listed sets for Lando-T.

Double Dance (Adamant, EQ/Stone Edge/SD/Rock Polish, 220+ Atk) Landorus-Therian@Leftovers vs. Mega Metagross (Naive)
Is it a counter?
Turn 1: Lando-T switches in, MegaGross uses:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Turn 2: Lando-T at 51.35%-60.05% HP, MegaGross at 100% HP. MegaGross outspeeds and uses:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

10.2% of the time, MegaGross wins there. Otherwise, if Lando-T decides to attack, this happens:

220+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

31.3% of the time, Lando-T wins there. Otherwise, MegaGross outspeeds the next turn and wins there. If he decides to Rock Polish instead, he gets the same 31.3% chance on the next turn, so Rock Polish doesn't affect anything. Stone Edge and Swords Dance are matchup-losing.

So Landorus-T switches in and kills a Mega Metagross in 28.17% of the time, puts it in the red 61.69% of the time, and does nothing 10.2% of the time.

If you take 32 of the HP EVs and put them in Attack, the calcs become:

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

and

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (47.3 - 56.3%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

which ups the kill chance to 31.97%, but at the cost of upping the failure chance to 27%. Not worth it; you do absolutely nothing (at the expense of putting it into a low-HP state where anything with priority can kill it) almost 3 times as often.

Is it a check?
7.01% of the time, Landorus-T both fails to get the OHKO and gets 2HKOed by Meteor Mash. So 92.99% of the time, it kills the MegaGross.

Scarf Lando-T - 2HKOs (and is 2HKOd in return by) Mega Metagross. It's a solid check; only loses if it flinches. I had previously said it was outsped, but I didn't know that calculated Speed stats ignored Scarf. 21.5% of the time, it avoids getting 2HKO'd itself and thus works as a counter

Defensive (Impish Stealth Rock/EQ/U-Turn/Stone Edge) Lando-T@Leftovers (252 HP/240 Atk/8 SpD/8 Spe)

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 111-132 (29 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is pretty much a textbook example of a counter. This requires two turns more to be killed than to kill.

So, in conclusion: Double Dance Lando-T is a check, Scarf Lando-T is a check, and Defensive Lando-T is a counter. Because of the variety of EV spreads used on Lando-T, only 38.826% of EV spreads are mentioned as anything other than "Other' on the stats page; of those, 14.446% (of the total; it's 37.207% of known EV spreads) are Impish, which means that they fall into the "counter" category. The others are Jolly, which means they are likely Scarf users; they counter 21.5% of the time and check the other 78.5%. So if these percentages hold true across all Lando-T, then 50.71% of teams with a Lando-T (15.74% of all teams) carry a MegaGross counter, and the other 49.29% (15.30% of all teams) have a check.

Heatran

Same Metagross set, now vs. Heatran (Hasty instead of Naive, for the lack of a -SpD, as Heatran is a special attacker)

Specially Defensive Heatran:

MegaGross outspeeds, drastically, and:

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 452-532 (117.4 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Scarf Heatran:

MegaGross still outspeeds:

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 452-532 (139.9 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

MegaGross, however, only checks it, as:

252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Mega Metagross: 476-564 (158.1 - 187.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(so while it can't even check MegaGross, MegaGross should not switch in on a ScarfTran that can choose its move)

Air Balloon:

Now, however, we have a check. Turn 1, MegaGross can only do:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 89-105 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

and gets hit by

252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 332-392 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, after that, like before, it is free to

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 452-532 (138.6 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

18.155% of Heatran carry an Air Balloon; 15.984% carry Fire Blast, and 6.066% of them carry Overheat. As these are not independent, it's likely that somewhere around 10%-15% of Heatran are capable of checking MegaGross. If we assume the lower end, then 2.285% of teams get a MegaGross check from having a Heatran on them. Overall, MegaGross fares well against Heatran; it is never countered, and very few Heatran actually on the ladder can check it.

All stats OU 1695, more Pokémon to come in usage order; I'll probably only do the top 5 or so. If I said that Scarfed Lando-T lost to MegaGross when you read that part of the analysis, reread it; I didn't know that the calculated Speed stat ignored the Scarf, so Scarf Lando-T is actually a check most of the time and even occasionally a counter.

 

[Patolegend!]

Hmmmm, seeing the above made me calc the following: with a simple Lando-T/Ferro core, you can make it difficult for Mega Meta to get past you:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 142-168 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Put in leech seed/protect, the chance of the switch back to Lando-T on the hammer arm, and Meta now being in revenge kill range, Meta now has to switch out. Let's be honest, Ferro/Lando-T are pretty damn useful against the rest of the meta as well! Food for thought!

 

[Jojobobo]

If we're taking abilities into effect(I know you mentioned it, but it really doesn't make it ok), then 252+ Attack Mega Mawile reaches 678 and MegaCham reaches 656 or something around that, which makes it an invalid argument. And while most of the time, all of MegaGross' moves are indeed contact, it's not ALWAYS running a Tough Claws boosted move. Always remember, a Tough Claws is a MODIFIER, just like things such as Pixilate and Aerilate, but we don't take these in account when talking about boosted stats. Let's take Mega Altaria for example-if I took the Pixilate boost on Return in account, then it would basically get 700 Attack on that Return, higher than Mega Mawile's attack stat, since it also gains STAB it didn't previously have on it. Anyway, while I'm at is, might as well get my opinion out there. As an avid MMeta player, people really like to make it sound much stronger than it actually is. I can't say it's not powerful it's not powerful as it is probably(arguably) the best Pokemon in the tier right now. That, however, doesn't mean it HAS to go. Some people are posting calcs about how much damage MegaGross does. OF COURSE it's gonna do a lot of damage, it's a WALLBREAKER, it's meant to do a lot of damage to walls. If every wallbreaker in the tier were too strong, then half the Mons in the tier would have to leave. Now, some might argue about its great defenses being way too good for a wallbreaker. While that is partially true, MMeta plays a very unique role as maybe the only wallbreaker that likes to soak up hits, which is why it doesn't hit AS HARD as others do. For example, Darmanitan(not even OU) hits much harder than Mega Meta but it doesn't have as much bulk. Same goes for M-Pinsir and generally several other Pokemon. You might argue that either have the speed tier M-Meta does. It's excellent speed tier makes its bulk look much bigger than it really it is not gonna always get hit. For example, I saw posts saying how it can tank a +6 Azumarill Aqua Jet. Thing is, unless it is already in the field when it uses Drum, it's not gonna OHKO and if it lacks BP it can't revenge kill. And it's ALWAYS gonna have something to wall it, no matter what moves it uses. For example, Scizor walls every single set, MegaBro walls any sort of set without GK(even normal Slowbro), Skarmory walls any set without Hammer Arm. It suffers from severe 4MSS and unlike Greninja who would otherwise be brought up to counter this, the set of Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Dark Pulse and Ice Beam would cover quite literally EVERYTHING but Mega Slowbro, which could easily be taken care of by another team member, any electric type for example. So, overall, my opinion is NO BAN.

To add onto what AM and Haunter said, yes I realise there's pokemon with similar modifier abilities - and yes it's also important to consider their abilities if we were discussing them. However what sets Metagross apart from the likes of Mega Mawile and Medicham is unlike the latter two it got ridiculously bulky on its mega evo (due to it already having a good HP base stat) as well as an extreme boost to its effective attack. As Haunter mentioned on the most common set it applies to 3/4 of its moves - which makes comparisons to Pixelate and Aeriliate users a bit disingenuous as that attack boost applies only to STAB moves not coverage (which can be taken by a resisted type, opening up many more checks and counters regardless of coverage). Further, Darmanitan doesn't on the whole out-damage Metagross with coverage; yes Flare Blitz does out damage Metagross's STABs, but Metagross does more damage with the coverage assuming both Jolly 252 Atk (give both Ice Punch in the damage calculator, which gets the Sheer Force boost, and see which does more damage against the same target - this is just for the comparison obviously Darmanitan doesn't get Ice Punch).

Again drawing back to the fact that Metagross has more bulk then all of these by a country mile and a better speed tier than all but Mega Salamence of those you mentioned and two differently typed STABS to hit with and a jaw-dropping effective attack and excellent defensive typing (none of those pesky x4 weaknesses) and it's not bothered about entry hazards you can easily see why it's low risk high reward - promoting high usage and making it overcentralising as a consequence.

 

[LMay]

Defensive Lando-T a counter ? Wait what ?
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Add SR in you calcs and you will see no one Lando-T set is a counter , scarf is just a CHECK.
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

We didn't want to ban the EQ/GK/MM/ZE set , we want to ban METAGROSSITE so every sets are notables imo.

 

[haunter]

Don't forget that Clear Body prevents Intimidate from lowering Metagross' Attack the turn it evolves, so your calcs are only valid if you assume that Metagross has already mega evolved the turn before Lando-T switches in. This means that M-Metagross has likely already fainted or severely crippled a Pokémon on your team.

If, instead, you assume that Lando-T is coming in the turn M-Metagross decides to mega evolve, here are the actual calcs:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 232-274 (69.6 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Basically: Scarf-Lando can force M-Gross out but won't be able to switch in again or will just die to Stealth Rock next time it comes in; defensive Lando-T can take 2 hits (assuming M-Gross lacks Ice Punch) but won't be able to OHKO back; Double dance Lando-T just plain loses without being able to scratch M-Gross.

Oh and, all the calcs assume the M-Metagross user doesn't get a lucky Attack boost from Meteor Mash!

 

[Patolegend!]

Defensive Lando-T a counter ? Wait what ?
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 248-292 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Add SR in you calcs and you will see no one Lando-T set is a counter , scarf is just a CHECK.
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 154-183 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

We didn't want to ban the EQ/GK/MM/ZE set , we want to ban METAGROSSITE so every set are notables imo.

See this is the problem we have. If Metagross runs Ice Punch instead of GK, it now gets walled by Hippo and Slowbro. Again, Slowbro and Lando-T are a pretty common core that have multiple uses outside of checking Metagross. This is the problem with analyzing Metagross in the meta in a 1v1, individual, theorymon sense, instead of in a realistic battle situation.

Meta can't run every move, and it has numerous checks that allow its moveset to be scouted.

Edit:

Don't forget that Clear Body prevents Intimidate from lowering Metagross' Attack the turn it evolves, so your calcs are only valid if you assume that Metagross has already mega evolved the turn before Lando-T switches in. This means that M-Metagross has likely already fainted or severely crippled a Pokémon on your team.

Clear Body needs a free switch at base 70 speed - how is this any different to Mega Hera getting a free switch and fainting/crippling a mon, Mega Char X or any other wallbreaker?

 

[LMay]

It's like say : Tentacruel can beat Greninja if he doesn't have Extrasensory
Empoleon can beat Greninja if he doesn't have Low kick
But they are both not REAL counters like i said we want to ban Metagrossite and not say "Pokemon A beat Pokemon B if he doesn't have this move" maybe Landorus will beat Metagross one time because he lacks of Ice punch but second time you get destroyed by an Ice punch Gross when you switch in , that's just why this thing should be banned, because if you don't have M-Scizor you never going to be safe in your switchs.

 

[haunter]

Clear Body needs a free switch at base 70 speed - how is this any different to Mega Hera getting a free switch and fainting/crippling a mon, Mega Char X or any other wallbreaker?

How is this relevant to the point I'm making? We're talking about Pokémon that can actually switch into Metagross, not Pokémon Metagross can switch in and force out, which are a lot anyway.

 

[Patolegend!]

How is this relevant to the point I'm making? We're talking about Pokémon that can actually switch into Metagross, not Pokémon Metagross can switch in and force out, which are a lot anyway.

I was more making the point that it has been established that there are few 'mons that can theoretically switch into Metagross, but theoretically this is true with other wall breakers as well.

Your point is valid, but I feel it has been overstated and over exagerated throughout the thread, without bearing in mind the context of a battle. I also don't think the disadvantages of its pre-Mega speed have been emphasised enough, instead of only focusing on its ability. I admit, however that it is at a tangent to what you wanted to say.

 

[p2]

So, I was talking in the chatrooms yesterday and we were discussing some counters to Megagross -
Counter Skarmory
Physically Defensive Slowking
Doublade
Mega Scizor
Arcanine

Out of these, the only viable ones are Skarmory, Mega Scizor and to an extent Slowking. Mega Scizor has a really big opportunity cost due to it being a mega, Skarmory doesn't really fit on all teams, and I don't really know how Slowking does, but I assume it's a bit like Slowbro but more specially defensive. Iirc, Slowking was definitely not ranked as high as B- before, Arcanine is pretty meh (unranked before Megagross) and Doublade is pretty frail on the specially defensive side.

Note: this isn't a pro ban or no ban argument, I'm just saying that Metagross has very little viable checks.

You forgot Sdef Slowbro, Victini, Tangrowth, Bronzong, Phys Def Jirachi, Bulky Scizor and Gourgeist XL

 

[Scar Tissue]

It's like say : Tentacruel can beat Greninja if he doesn't have Extrasensory
Empoleon can beat Greninja if he doesn't have Low kick
But they are both not REAL counters like i said we want to ban Metagrossite and not say "Pokemon A beat Pokemon B if he doesn't have this move" maybe Landorus will beat Metagross one time because he lacks of Ice punch but second time you get destroyed by an Ice punch Gross when you switch in , that's just why this thing should be banned, because if you don't have M-Scizor you never going to be safe in your switchs.

We're not going to be able to whittle the metagame down to the point where every pokemon has a 100% counter. What's your Pikachu counter? You don't know if it's special or physical or even mixed. it can run knock off, focus punch, extreme speed, hidden power fire, hell you even have to watch out for its potential cosplay move.

 

[Norne]

I'd like to say that I think MegaGross is a predominant force in this metagame not only for itself, cuz ok, it's strong but it's not outright broken as McM said, and its point of force are:
1) Excellent ratio staying power/offensive power
+
2) One of few really good offensive Steel typing makin it extremely viable
Thanks to its stats + typing + ability, it can take several hits from a bunch of offensive mons, outspeeds most of them (that can deal it several damages while fasters usually don't) and being a problem also for more defensive teams, tho stall can quite easily threaten it;

3) Quite good coverage
Yes, it can go itself through some of its checks with GKnot or coverage but as Bluwing said, tipical dual defensive cores can deal with it (remember Keldeo BW? It was defined "broken" due to its possible coverage but things like Jellicent + Amoonguss could deal with it while having other functions for the team so not fully dedicated to it), so I can see a Gliscor+Ferrothorn+BulkyWater having no issues at all with it (unless running Ice Punch + Hammer Arm+GKnot but hey seriously?).
"Hey but Greninja was banned for its coverage, why MegaGross can't be for the same reason?"
Things are actually different because Greninja could threat almost every defensive core depending of its coverage that could run every of its moves, instead of mons like Keldeo, Landorus-I and MegaGross itself that choosing a certain move they renounce to deal with other stuff that they could threat with another; in shorts they have 4MSS (sry if my english sux but I hope it's clear what I want to explain, isn't it?)

4) Its force as answer of main threats of "past" metagame (post-greninja ban) that made it being one of main current meta threats:
warning: it could seem theorymon but it's just a (personal) analysis of past metagame and not discussion on future one!
Remember early ORAS when everyone tried new toys as MegaGross itself, MegaMence (gone for good), MegaSlowbro (judged a bit worse than expected), MegaSableye (judged a bit better than expected), Mega Beedrill, MegaAltaria, MegaGallade, MegaLopunny, MegaDiancie?
Now, focus on MegaLopunny/MegaGallade, that initially dominated metagame because Greninja scared fairy usages so Azumarill/Clefable/Diancie itself were worse in the past. Even MegaGross itself was worse due to Greninja lol to the point to drop the "quickban hype" after MegaMence as many thought with the statistics leak pre-release.
So metagame was: fighting type, fairy type, greninja, sableye, steel type (megagross + scizor usually non-mega because waste of megaslot)
note that both fights and sableye are weak to fairies in general
greninja balanced the thing (also for megagross)
after the (rightful) ban, things started to go out of hand
Fairies got a huge buff once that they were the main stuff to opposing megafights offenses and megasableye defensives
so MegaGross as STEEL type was the perfect answer to this: DarkPulse Greninja was gone, it could threat stuff like fairies indeed (better than the "passive" Heatran and the slower Scizor), latwins, a semidecent answer for fasters fighting, coverage can threat stuff like grounds/waters/steels ecc
so it "balanced" the meta which is still crap tbh.
Looking more in the past, we can see how really good is Steel type, since their main representatives were suspected and banned: Aegislash and MegaMawile. Adding that their function as "antifairy" was one of their only few positive qualities for metagame, they were banned for their excessive impact on the metagame caused by other features.
The main consequence was a better meta because, obviously, dealing with them was an ass for building and playing in general but at the same time it caused a huge amount of usage of fairies: Azumarill, MegaGarde, Clefable.
Finally going to current meta, situation wont be different, and actually right now isn't, because MegaGross is so used (quite only) because it checks fairies and having really good utility.

I think main problem of ORAS are fairies, and suspecting every good steel (even not outright broken) seems not the best solution imo
MegaGross isn't outright broken? So the ban is to "fix up" meta ok? But what if this makes things go worse?
Ladder suspect would answer to this.
Let's see.

There is no denying on Metagross capabilities in the current OU meta as he isn't Msalamence tier in overcentralizing features, however there is no denying that despite being an S tier treath you should prepare for or risk being steam rolled, ends up putting way to much constraint on non stall teams given its great synergy with several team types, most prominent been it's role with its agility set or the standard coverage getaway on trapping strats(Weather or not trapping should be tested is a figth for another day) .

I consider the omg fairies gonna rule OU if Metagross is out is a piss puddle shallow argument if you ask me. Keeping a broken element to prevent another broken element from taking over is a terrible practice.

With that said I don't consider the fairies broken at all at this point regardless of Metagross influence on the metagame.

If I were to call on Metagross status I'll call it not broken by OU status, just way too good and prominent as any non broken S tier treath, however I'm really enjoying the MMetagross less metagame, even tough people are trying to abuse the new toy syndrome with a huge influx of support fairy types it isn't booked nor centralized towards a common treath, if anything there was a rose on Gardevoir Magnezone cores. Or a resurgence on sylveon-Diancie cores but nothing rises supreme as other teams have come up with more stable manicures that aren't outright pierced by MMetagross presence on the tier.


After some testing I can say I enjoy a MMetagross deprived meta, after the new toy syndrome settles it could be really fun to go OU, and probably suspect other elements of the meta(Shadow tag) but that's a discussion for another day.

I'm leaning towards ban at this point.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Your point is valid, but I feel it has been overstated and over exagerated throughout the thread, without bearing in mind the context of a battle.

How does the argument not bear in mind the context of the battle, though? I'd argue that the argument is valid because it takes into account the context of a battle more so than converse arguments. On paper, sure, defensive Landorus-T seems like a great counter to Mega Metagross (well, at least for one or two switch-ins). However, in practice (i.e. in the context of an actual battle), it's not as airtight because it has to rely on Mega Metagross Mega evolving earlier in the match so that Intimidate will actually have an effect. Switching in immediately might just get Landorus-T killed if it has to take two Meteor Mashes after Stealth Rock. Of course, being forced to save Landorus-T until after Metagross goes Super Saiyan means that there's a chance that Mega Metagross already crippled something on your team or took out one of your Pokemon the first time it came in because, well, that's just how the Mega Metagross do. It doesn't mean that some Landorus-T sets aren't good switch-ins to some Mega Metagross sets...sometimes. It does mean, however, that taking into account the actual context of a battle makes Landorus-T a shakier counter than otherwise.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I can't don't want to try to do the calcs rn since I'm on mobile, but mega Gyarados could do a decent job, I think, of checking it at least (excluding Tpunch sets, but whatever). Basically, switch in, dragon dance (w/o mega evolving), dragon dance, then M-Evo and crunch. It should at least take a chunk outta Megagross and tank anything the TIE Fighter can throw at like its nothing.

 

[Merritt]

I can't don't want to try to do the calcs rn since I'm on mobile, but mega Gyarados could do a decent job, I think, of checking it at least (excluding Tpunch sets, but whatever). Basically, switch in, dragon dance (w/o mega evolving), dragon dance, then M-Evo and crunch. It should at least take a chunk outta Megagross and tank anything the TIE Fighter can throw at like its nothing.

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 153-180 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It works as a check, since after one DD it outspeeds. It doesn't work as a counter, for fairly obvious reasons.

Then again there are a handful of checks. Talonflame, Scarf Landorus (bar Ice Punch), Mega Charizard, Scarf Garchomp (bar Ice Punch), Scarf Heatran, Mega Sableye, Foul Play Sableye, Physically Defensive Rotom-W, and so on.

 

[BlueLobster]

Smoething many people seem to miss when saying a mon is broken is A mon with no/very few counters is not auto-broken. Unlike Gren, M.Meta isn't glue to take on what a team is weak to, it is the core and makes the cores weaknesses. It has 4MSS big time, it's movepool means it has no counters, but it sure has a boatload of checks. It's a bit machup reliant too, the Agility set walks through balance/offense depending on it's coverage, but agility is a waste of vital coverage V stall, which after moveset scouting can take advantage of it's moveslot waste. Likewise, the 4 attacks sets are revenged by Talon and Scarf Lando-T, 2 of the most common offense mons, as well as Bisharp (though EQ variants can play mindgames with it). It's powerful and somewhat meta defining, but I personally don't think it's OP, and banning it isn't warranted, so no ban is my opinion on it.

 

[Seru]

M-Metagross have the same problem that M-Mence have*, it's ridiculously bulky and strong at the same time.

80/150/110 in def stats are a thing.

145 Base atk + Tough Claws + A strong stab (Meteor Mash) that also have chance to boost atk.

He have great speed, 350 is too much for a mon that already have ALL your other huge stats.

Aaand: Stab Priority acess (bullet punch), a little bit unpredictable with Grass Knot/Ice Punch too.

 

[teamsnickers]

As some of you may know I am not a ban happy guy however I feel that mega metagross is unhealthy to the metagame and needs to go
Mega Metagross (similar to Aegislash last gen) doesn't let the Metagame blossom to what it can be... If you remember when aegislash got banned we saw a resurgence of alot of megas that we thought were inferior. I feel like the same could happen with a mega metagross ban and the metagame can become much more healthy and vibrant.

 

[Runemark]

I think the problem is that Mega Metagross, whilst extremely powerful, isn't inherently broken. It's more the fact that it limits teambuilding, and that the meta would be more balanced without it. After playing the suspect ladder a bit, it seems to me that teams have become a lot more diverse, which leads to a greater enjoyment whilst playing.

Also, for those citing the rise of Fairies as a counter-argument, as has been stated many times already, keeping an unhealhy influence to counterbalance another should not be the way things work. Furthermore, other Pokemon would rise to combat this, such as Mega Scizor and Mega Venusaur, which would then give rise to their checks and counters, promoting greater choice and more diversity.

Based off of these reasons and playing the suspect ladder for a little bit, I'm going for a ban.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I remain very unconvinced that mega metagross is ban worthy. He is undeniably strong, fast, and bulky, but what justifies the sum of his pros being too good and needing to be outed?

I normally hate this argument, but we just saw how when something that is considered to be the strongest in the tier is banned, something else will just take it's place. What will it be with meta gross?

Or worse, like with the aegislash ban, what if nothing takes its place and the meta becomes too diverse for an entire play style to cover all threats?

People keep saying that metagross is unhealthy, but honestly, I don't buy it. He's good, but not too good and a meta without him isn't inherently better, so I think it's obvious: no ban

 

[Toljik]

I consider the omg fairies gonna rule OU if Metagross is out is a piss puddle shallow argument if you ask me. Keeping a broken element to prevent another broken element from taking over is a terrible practice./quote]

I agree with you, but the argument is not a matter of using broken to beat broken, it's a matter of whether giving Mega Metagross the boot results in a shittier metagame.

 

[Spo0ks]

I don't see how saying banning metagross will make for a worse metagame is any less valid of an argument than saying banning metagrosss will make for a better metagame. Especially right now where there is a good amount of evidence for both sides.