np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[Jukain]

Can you please elaborate on your definitions of "unstable metagame" and "fix"? You utilized those terms multiple times in your post, however, I still do not have a clear understanding of what you specifically mean. One thing you mentioned was that Metagross stifles the team bulding process for multiple play styles. Which playstyles are you referring to specifically? It is well known and has been said ad nauseum that M-Meta is a gigantic threat to offensive teams. I've already touched up on why I think that is erroneous thinking and how the limitations a pokemon may or may not impose on one individual facet of the game should never be enough to warrant a ban. If you are also saying that M-Meta is dangerous towards Defensive and Balanced playstyles (or any other team styles that I'm not mentioning), please give specific examples to counter the numerous defensive counters and checks that have been mentioned dozens of times in this thread already. People have posted multiple things such as Celebi, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Cofagrigus, Slowbro variants, etc. and have shown that there currently is no M-Meta set that can simultaneously handle its offensive and defensive checks. However, I have not seen anything that specifically disputes this. Pokemon has been and always will be a matchup dependent game - trying to "fix" this is like trying to change the fundamental aspects of what makes this game unique and interesting. If matchup was never an issue, there would be no point to the specific sets, strategies, and ideals that this community works so hard to develop. No matter what comes and goes in a metagame, there will always be certain matchups that have advantages over others. This is a hallmark sign of a healthy game; one that necessitates brainpower and creativity for efficient threat management.

People who complain that M-Meta hampers the development of offensive teams indicate a larger problem with playstyle distribution. Before M-Meta was even a thing, offense was the dominant team style that pretty much shat on everythin - are you saying that a pokemon who shifts the focus AWAY from such myopic teambuilding is toxic/unstable? Because to me, a metagame dominated by one playstyle is inherently unhealthy to begin with. If M-Meta is taking the focus away from this and forcing people to adapt and change their team building strategies, how is that not the definition of healthy? I think the hyper-focus on offensive playstyles is blinding people to the actual benefits that M-Meta induces in this game - change is not always bad and if some teams need to adapt to a more balanced/defensive style if they want to handle Metagross, then there is nothing wrong with that. Offensive shouldn't be scrambling for a switch-in anyway and saying otherwise completely counters the whole idea of that playstyle to begin with.

The issue I have with this post is that it is misconstruing the actual playstyle distribution in this metagame. The current OU metagame is centered around balanced and bulky offense. Hyper offense is generally somewhat inconsistent and matchup-reliant, which is the case because of things like weather teams (rain/sand) and issues with certain defensive cores depending on the team. Its playstyle is very much all-or-nothing which makes it risky on top of the other things I said, and that's why the majority of OU players in SPL are opting for 'safe' balanced builds. Mega Metagross is probably the greatest threat to balanced teams of anything because it doesn't really have any good answers besides Alomomola and bulky Mega Scizor (as for your examples: Skarmory is a stall-only mon, Cofagrigus is bad, Mandibuzz loses after SR, and Celebi doesn't beat it at all). In fact, a set of Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Grass Knot deals with the vast majority of potential Metagross stops all at the same time. Pokemon isn't inherently matchup-reliant and certainly not to this extent; late XY was not this matchup reliant. Matchup reliance isn't a fundamental aspect of the game; it is something that occurs due to instability and overcentralization. There's a difference between an advantage and outright making the ability to win nonexistent; the former is a healthy aspect of competitive play, while the latter is not.

 

[North]

NO BAN
Preface: You guys here scare me, I swear every time a suspect test rolls around its like you are copying and pasting the same arguments without thought. Throwing around words like "overcentralize" and rambling on about calc's that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. It is silly that this thing is really being put up for a suspect. It's like were trying to chop off the left end of a stick here. There is always something we are trying to ban because we claim it's making the meta unstable, when maybe THE BANS are what is making things unstable.

Metagross is only really limiting, or "overcentralizing" to offensive teams, as other play styles naturally have answers for him. How does that make him broken? That sounds like a balanced meta to me. No one play style goes unchecked. He is a hard hitting tank, same way salamence was (I use him because people actually compared the two earlier in the thread), but unlike salamence, there are enough reasons against him to actually justify running something else. Unlike Greninja and Salamence before him, you don't need to dedicate a member of your team or resort to niche' gimmicky tricks to handle mega metagross. Many of his checks and counters also are checks and counters to half of the meta. And if you have and offensive team that is weak to Metagross but you shred right through anything else then wanting to ban him is selfish and is unhealthy for the meta. He Is a very good pokemon, and maybe even the best mega available right now. That doesn't make him ban worthy. He has natural team building synergy in that Most of his walls have poor special defense, and most of his best team mates are special attackers. Also, most viable special walls are weak to metagross. This combination makes him tricky to deal with for conventional teams, but does not make him broken. Ground, Fire, Dark, And Shadowball are all common offensively, so he has plenty weaknesses. Banning mega Metagross is just a lazy attempt to fix a meta that I don't even feel is broken or unstable right now.

The reason Mega Metagross isn't always a threat to balance is because every balance single team HAS TO runs a "counter" to it. The fact that a singe mon makes you forced to take it into account on every single team is over centralizing. To add to that, Metagross can bypass those "counters" with its absurdly vast move pool. If you say it "only destroys offensive teams" then its limiting the metagame by making people not want to run offense because of this giant threat. It has an amazing defensive typing with 9 resistances and an immunity along with amazing bulk in 80/150/110 allow metagross to get many switch ins and get kills over and over again.

 

[Aberforth]

Out of curiosity, do you never run a Keldeo check/counter for your teams? It's not like Metagross's checks/counters are bad in OU, if you are unprepared for an S rank mon, it'll be a huge threat to your team.

Also, I've yet to see why this is an uber. I'm hearing arguments about it being centralising, but I dont really see it as being anywhere near as bad as it sounds.

Looking at the portrait of an uber thing, here are the definitions of an uber:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

It doesn't sweep through a significant portion of teams, it doesn't wall successfully due to lack of recovery, and it doesn't setup a situation where other pokemon can sweep easily. It means none of the criteria for being an uber, therefore he should stay in OU.

This remains my opinion.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I'd like to compare Metagross to Excadrill in BW1, not for their inherent traits as Pokémons, but rather for their influence on the tier and particulary its development. Excadrill was one of the best Pokémon in BW1. As such, everyone was rightfully prepared to face it. There were "classic" checks/counter which were clearly overused like Gliscor, Rotom-W or Skarmory, and there were more obscure checks/counters such as Bronzong or Virizion, to only name a few. Excadrill was still a top-notch Pokémon, but wasn't (in my humble opinion, I insist) as broken as the previously banned Pokémon. Yet, I was completely for its ban for the simple reason that it was totally blocking the metagame evolution because of its weight on the teambuilding (on top of everything else that was popular obviously) and its faculty to be amazing against pretty much every Offense and a good amount of Balance (and you could even argue Stall didn't like facing the Air Baloon SD Set at all).

Hope not to detract too much from the actual discussion with this.

I don't play really anymore and am not even sure if I'll participate in this test (so anyone and everyone please take this with a pinch of salt), but I find comparing Excadrill back in BW1 to Metagross now is a little ambiguous. Metagross is nowhere near Excadrill's dominance because of that Speed, requiring no set up. Metagross sits at a very attractive 110, but several others also do so and even outspeed it. Adamant Excadrill couldn't even be caught by choice scarfers. Out of the gate and before BW even released, Excadrill was what everyone had their eyes on and were wary of. Metagross, not so much (only a few cried Uber for it just out of fear for the well rounded base stats capped by the 110 Speed). Excadrill was one of the pillars of BW alongside rain/weather until it was banned and now Metagross is gaining traction. The strain on teambuilding was far worse too. I remember it was prep for rain, get trained by Excadrill, prep for Excadrill, get drowned by rain.

A better comparison would be Pokemon like Keldeo, Landorus, Garchomp, or Kyurem-B in BW(2). All with great stats, but did not have the greatest starts. Landorus finally got banned after so long (although Sheer Force was the main factor). Keldeo was hyped, died off instantly, then started to come back in that rain. Garchomp and Kyurem-B were unbanned, started "meh" to many players, but are now considered among the best Pokemon in BW, even fit to be removed by some. While obviously, Metagross hasn't been around that long, it definitely fits the description of a Pokemon that comes on its own gradually and gets better as players utilize it more effectively (as opposed to "this thing is obviously broken and stupid and should be banned now", like some past suspects) like those examples.

I can't turn this to BW, so I won't say much past that. Just wanted to point out the trend I think it's following. I can understand suspecting Metagross on the grounds of its affects to the growth and state of the metagame and teambuilding. I can't make any true statements on that matter because of my lack of experience (haven't played OU since the Greninja ban) so I don't even know if it's really broken or not. All I remember was that it was a great, solid Pokemon beforehand and just that. Solid.

 

[AM]

The reason Mega Metagross isn't always a threat to balance is because every balance single team HAS TO runs a "counter" to it. The fact that a singe mon makes you forced to take it into account on every single team is over centralizing. To add to that, Metagross can bypass those "counters" with its absurdly vast move pool. If you say it "only destroys offensive teams" then its limiting the metagame by making people not want to run offense because of this giant threat. It has an amazing defensive typing with 9 resistances and an immunity along with amazing bulk in 80/150/110 allow metagross to get many switch ins and get kills over and over again.

I'm generally on the pro-ban side of this debate although I don't want to put a detailed post until I've actually laddered and got a feel for the metagross less meta instead of just theorymonning, which more people should really be doing judging by the comments I'm seeing. I do want to state however that I don't think requiring a counter to a top tier threat is actually a good argument if we're talking about the pro-ban side of things. You have to take into account top tier threats all the time and even some you do have to play around. I think M-Metagross puts a very high constraint in team-building among other aspects I feel are prevalent towards why it's unhealthy but required to have a counter / answer to a top tier threat shouldn't be an argument that it's unhealthy for the meta when this can be said for any top tier threat and this concept expands amongst other tiers and meta-games as well. Pro-ban but this is somewhat faulty logic.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

I have a question for the people saying that banning gross will balance the meta, and I apologize if this doesn't fit the criteria of this thread. Is the (main) purpose of banning things to "fix" an unstable meta, or ban an objectively broken pokemon? I personally don't agree that metagross is broken, but I see its ban as being beneficial for the meta as a whole. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[Wumgum]

I have a question for the people saying that banning gross will balance the meta, and I apologize if this doesn't fit the criteria of this thread. Is the (main) purpose of banning things to "fix" an unstable meta, or ban an objectively broken pokemon? I personally don't agree that metagross is broken, but I see its ban as being beneficial for the meta as a whole. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

There is a very important point I want all of you to focus on: do not vote / post about "liking x metagame better." That isn't the purpose of our tests...the purpose is finding out whether or not Genesect is broken, which is why, in special applications, we'll probably emphasize the ladder that has it included. The ladder without it is for you to better grasp the context of the metagame and see firsthand what happens when it is gone and from this, more completely understand what about its overall presence broke the metagame...not to use as evidence of a subjectively preferable metagame.

 

[Roxachronic]

Megagross is a very powerful mon, that is obvious and everybody already knows that.

About the part that Megagross is similar to Greninja there are some small but very important differences

First of all it is going to be running Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/Hammer Arm on all his sets, the 4th option either being a coverage or boosting option, which makes his moveset much more predictable(since Greninja could run a much varied set because it had STAB on everything,you could even not run Hydro Pump, which is not the case for Megagross.)

The second one Greninja was more splashable because it was not a mega evo.

And before someone comments ''but you can forget Hammer Arm or one of his stabs for another coverage move'', lets be serious please, is like saying you are going to run a Lando-T without an EQ(Hammer Arm could be replaced, but I don't know why would someone do that because it gets walled by much more things)

Lando-T can check pretty efectively and kill him in practice, yeah it fears the Ice Punch on incoming, but that means he is not running Agility or Earthquake.

Also don't know why people compare it to a mon like Aegislash who can choose to run a physical or special set alongside having an impressive bulk and not costing a mega evo.

 

[Merritt]

Coming from the perspective of somebody who uses Mega Metagross fairly regularly, I have to say it's not all as broken in practice as it is on paper. 4MSS is a real issue for Mega Meta, as if I run Ice Punch and Hammer Arm and see a Slowbro I have to figure out how I'm going to beat it with the rest of my team, since Metagross isn't doing diddly to it. If I run Grass Knot to (maybe) beat it, then I either can't beat Landorus-T easily, Gliscor pretty much at all, or steel types laugh at my inability to deal with them. If I choose a "luxury" move like Bullet Punch then I have an issue with much more. AgiliGross has it even worse. Moves like HP Fire for Scizor again leave Gross walled (and also it suddenly loses the speed tie to Gengar). Sometimes it can dismantle teams, but other times it's nothing but a wallbreaker.

Part of what makes it difficult to play is difficulty with prior damage. MegaGross doesn't have good healing and so it gets worn down fairly quickly. Hit a Ferrothorn and suddenly Scarf Landorus kills you with EQ. Take some damage killing a Clefable and now Bisharp is able to KO with Sucker Punch and you're forced to switch. Even when your opponent doesn't have those things it still ends up wearing on the Steel Spider until it goes down. This is especially evident in its difficulty switching in. Sure it has bulk and steel is a great typing, but MegaGross once again gets worn down sometimes just to force the opponent out.

One of the biggest issues with Mega Metagross is its inability to OHKO neutrally. While it can cover a lot neutrally, Metagross has many things it hits neutrally and just doesn't kill instantly. This means, in combination with its difficulty remaining at full HP, it's prone to being checked offensively. Defensive teams handle it through burning it, which makes Mega Meta less than effective at doing its job. Balance has an issue with it, but not always.

In short, Mega Metagross is amazeballs on paper and damn good in practice. It has good (but not outrageous) attacking stats, fantastic speed, and good bulk. It looks broken at a glance, but let me describe it a different way.

Imagine a mon with 700 BST. It has great coverage, fantastic attacking stats, and good bulk. Its ability is also good. It suffers from some shortcomings, but it has the ability to get past its counters with a different set. It can struggle with steel types since they resist its STABs, but it has a coverage move for them. It can also hold an item.

This Pokemon I just described is Kyurem-B, albeit in a way that makes it sound better than it is.

 

[Jojobobo]

I think the main thing I've realised about Metagross is that Tough Claws as an ability gives the mega evolution a base stat total boost of 164 rather than 100. Here's why:

252 Atk (Jolly/Hasty) Metagross's attack = 389.

However the vast majority of its moves worth talking about also make contact, so let's multiply that by x1.33 due to Tough Claws (yes I know ability scalars exist outside the main damage equation, but it really doesn't matter if you apply it once to an inside term instead, in fact because of the additive +2 my assumption makes it slightly skewed towards having a lower than representative attack - but oh so marginally).

252 Atk (Jolly/Hasty) Metagross's attack factoring in a Tough Claws = 517

The attack base stat that is equivalent to is 209 which is the best possible base attack stat out of all pokemon. In practical terms, it's better than sticking on a Life Orb to the base 145 but without the recoil.

One of the arguments bandied about when Aegislash got banned was it was effectively running a 720 BST, well with Tough Claws in many ways Metagross is running a 764 BST (which would make it 6th total out of all pokemon). Further, out of the original 100 extra BST megas are supposed to get Metagross got most of his stuck in bulk - making it extremely hard to take out as many have mentioned on top of having the best base attack in the game.

When we add this to it's many superb innate abilities - Clear Body before mega evo to stop stat drops, a STAB that 20% of the time makes it deadlier, resisting Stealth Rock, great defensive typing, great speed - we have the perfect candidate for a ban: overcentralising (which isn't terrible of itself) but stemming from it being extremely low risk to use.

Comparing that to the other mega that has Tough Claws, ZardX, we see a situation where it isn't low risk - SR takes huge chunks of its health (up to 50% pre-evo), it being completely susceptible to intimidate, much lower bulk, lack of priority, etc.

I think that's why it should get a ban - 764 BST (effectively for any contact move, which is all of them barring EQ and Grass Knot), defensive typing and a whole host of little extra perks - to me it's quantitatively uber all over.

 

[Valentine]

if i'm ever going to convert my suspect votes from a previous life into a badge, i guess it's required to chime in on these cesspools of damp shit.

mega metagross is easily the tier's best mega, and in the converstaion for the most consistent mon in the tier. not only does it exchange itself off for 100%+ damage with ease, it also places a heavy strain on teambuilding. the only other thing that has as large of an impact on building is mega sable, but we won't talk about that. first, we saw the resurgence of slowbro and bulky waters to deal with meta, but then came grass knot. then ferro/heatran were pretty decent answers, but then hammer arm became staple. now people are realizing mega scizor can actually take advantage of megagross, which means it wouldn't be surprising for people to forgo something for hp fire, which still hits stuff like ferrothorn/skarm (grass/fire is historically pretty good coverage also). it obviously has ice punch for bulky grounds like lando-t, and the bulky garchomps that are getting popular, but it hardly needs it since it's STABs are coming off of a massive 145 atk stat, further boosted by tough claws. it even has exclusive options that can be wildly successful like pursuit for latios, which previously was only available to tyranitar/bisharp, and bullet punch for diancie. essentially, there are no counters to metagross.

usually, if you can't deal with something defensively, you can deal with it offensively. for exmaple, your typical wallbreaker is going to have a low basespeed, which you can take advantage of with faster offensive pokemon. kye-b for example, doesn't really have any counters, but it's rock weakness and relatively low base speed make it a balanced pokemon. metagross however, does not share this problem. it's above average, tier defining base 110 speed makes it one of the fastest mons in the tier. the stuff that is faster, like thundurus, talonflame, lopunny, scarf keldeo, shit you name it, they all lose to metagross after it gets a rock polish under it's belt. there are obviously things metagross doesn't immediately KO, like scarf lando-t, or scarfchomp (unless its ice punch bop), but mons like this can be easily worn down, especailly scarf lando-t when stealth rocks are on the field. not to mention that locked ground moves are one of the easiest things to take advantage of, thanks to stuff like RP Lando-I, which is phenomenal teammate for Metagross. In conclusion, Mega Metagross

• is versatile
• places a strain on teambuilding, overcentralizing the metagame
• has no counters
• has very few effective checks

Ban that shit.

 

[Krauersaut]

I'll freely admit that I'm not exactly the most experienced OU player, but there are numerous checks to Mega-Metagross that are perfectly viable for a variety of different archetypes of teams. I think that, due to the 'strain it puts on teambuilding' (I mean, come on - by that logic, Keldeo, Mega-Lopunny and Landorus-Therian, just to name a few, should be banned already), it's simply an amassment of players starting to become fussy about a threat. It's a hard-hitting mon, yes, and certainly contributes to the current shape of the meta - this does not mean that it's inherently 'broken' or, to use the word that people seem to like throwing around, 'overcentralizing'. Just because it CAN run a variety of different sets that can allow it to get past certain checks (see: Talonflame, Keldeo, Mega Altaria, the list goes on), it just makes it that much more prone to others, and it's no different than any other mon in that it's bound by 4MSS. Just because a mon terrorizes an archetype doesn't warrant it being banned - to the people complaining about its strong matchup against offensively inclined teams:

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Because it's not like you can run SpD Slowbro, which counters both Mega Metagross and Keldeo.

Because Physically defensive Slowking is the exact same and has access to nasty plot and dragontail.

 

[The-CSchnepf]

FOUR reasons why not to ban Mega Metagross.

1) Multiple Walls- no matter what you run on Metagross, a combination Skarmory, Slowbro, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Rotom-W, or Magnezone, and Ferrothorn will flat out wall it.

2) No Recovery- Metagross can not recover from Status or Damage without a cleric being on your team, and even then you are forced to lose turns

3) 4 Weaknesses- Metagross is weak to arguably the 4 most popular types in the game, and can be dealt with accordingly

4) Stall teams- Metagross has a hard time breaking walls. If you players would stop running mindless offense you would realize this Pokemon is not a problem.

That's 4 reasons right off the top of my head while I'm ranting. Just because a Pokemon is good does not give it a good enough reason to ban it. Use your brains guys, DO NOT BAN

 

[Adaam]

if i'm ever going to convert my suspect votes from a previous life into a badge, i guess it's required to chime in on these cesspools of damp shit.

mega metagross is easily the tier's best mega, and in the converstaion for the most consistent mon in the tier. not only does it exchange itself off for 100%+ damage with ease, it also places a heavy strain on teambuilding. the only other thing that has as large of an impact on building is mega sable, but we won't talk about that. first, we saw the resurgence of slowbro and bulky waters to deal with meta, but then came grass knot. then ferro/heatran were pretty decent answers, but then hammer arm became staple. now people are realizing mega scizor can actually take advantage of megagross, which means it wouldn't be surprising for people to forgo something for hp fire, which still hits stuff like ferrothorn/skarm (grass/fire is historically pretty good coverage also). it obviously has ice punch for bulky grounds like lando-t, and the bulky garchomps that are getting popular, but it hardly needs it since it's STABs are coming off of a massive 145 atk stat, further boosted by tough claws. it even has exclusive options that can be wildly successful like pursuit for latios, which previously was only available to tyranitar/bisharp, and bullet punch for diancie. essentially, there are no counters to metagross.

usually, if you can't deal with something defensively, you can deal with it offensively. for exmaple, your typical wallbreaker is going to have a low basespeed, which you can take advantage of with faster offensive pokemon. kye-b for example, doesn't really have any counters, but it's rock weakness and relatively low base speed make it a balanced pokemon. metagross however, does not share this problem. it's above average, tier defining base 110 speed makes it one of the fastest mons in the tier. the stuff that is faster, like thundurus, talonflame, lopunny, scarf keldeo, shit you name it, they all lose to metagross after it gets a rock polish under it's belt. there are obviously things metagross doesn't immediately KO, like scarf lando-t, or scarfchomp (unless its ice punch bop), but mons like this can be easily worn down, especailly scarf lando-t when stealth rocks are on the field. not to mention that locked ground moves are one of the easiest things to take advantage of, thanks to stuff like RP Lando-I, which is phenomenal teammate for Metagross. In conclusion, Mega Metagross

• is extremely versatile
• places a strain on teambuilding, overcentralizing the metagame
• has no counters
• has very few effective checks

Ban that shit.

Ah yes the classic "Set of Champions" argument. Metagross isn't gonna run HP Fire + EQ + Hammer arm + Ice Punch + BP + Grass Knot because as you may know, it can only run 4 moves.

The strain on team building argument is also terrible. Lopunny puts a massive strain on Offensive teams. Should we ban it? Lando-I, Mega Gard, SD Talonflame, Manaphy etc put a huge strain on stall, should we ban those? Of course if you build a team that has nothing for Metagross, you will lose to it. Just like how if you fail to account for any other S/A+ rank mon in any other tier ever, you will have a hard time.

And you claim is has no counters, and very few checks. Again, this is wrong. Rocky Helm Skarm laughs at Metagross as it kills itself and destroys its speed with Hammer Arm. Mega Scizor sets up on it and roosts off the damage. NOBODY is gonna run HP Fire Metagross. That's straight garbage as it loses its precious speed and is now outsped by Latis, Gallade, Gengar (huge threat), Diancie, and other Metagross. Many other soft checks have been posted that can wall it, and on offense, there is Thundurus, Lopunny, Bisharp, Gengar (speed tie), Scizor, Lando-T, and Tflame to revenge

 

[Ladder Heroes]

Because Physically defensive Slowking is the exact same and has access to nasty plot and dragontail.

Just a nitpick, but S Def Bro has a surprise factor that that Slowking doesn't have, because no one would grass knot a Slowking, but many people would grass knot a Slowbro that's at half health, seeing as grass knot usually kills standard Slowbro, allowing you to get off a nice t-wave.

Who runs Nasty Plot on a Slowking anyways?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Honest question to people who want to ban Mega Metagross to alleviate team match-up issues; what do we do next gen when we inevitably get a dozen or more good pokemon next gen, and the team matchup issue gets worse? Do we just ban more things?

 

[AM]

The focus of discussion is the current suspect test and future issues will be handled by tier leaders. Please stop implying that this test holds some sort of relevancy towards tiering that has to do with years from now. Stay on topic.

 

[Celticpride]

Honest question to people who want to ban Mega Metagross to alleviate team match-up issues; what do we do next gen when we inevitably get a dozen or more good pokemon next gen, and the team matchup issue gets worse? Do we just ban more things?

Obviously there will be some borked things next gen, but it's also good to keep in mind how many things also fall / become reasonable in later gens. Mew, Celebi, both Latis, Manaphy, Torn-T, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Excadrill, Garchomp (twice) and Salamence have all spent significant time in Ubers in one gen or another. There's a good chance some borderline broken things will become more reasonable as time goes on.

Edit: My bad AM

 

[DarkNostalgia]

So, I was talking in the chatrooms yesterday and we were discussing some counters to Megagross -
Counter Skarmory
Physically Defensive Slowking
Doublade
Mega Scizor
Arcanine

Out of these, the only viable ones are Skarmory, Mega Scizor and to an extent Slowking. Mega Scizor has a really big opportunity cost due to it being a mega, Skarmory doesn't really fit on all teams, and I don't really know how Slowking does, but I assume it's a bit like Slowbro but more specially defensive. Iirc, Slowking was definitely not ranked as high as B- before, Arcanine is pretty meh (unranked before Megagross) and Doublade is pretty frail on the specially defensive side.

Note: this isn't a pro ban or no ban argument, I'm just saying that Metagross has very little viable checks.

 

[Toljik]

I was in favor of a ban, but due to Metagross' limited coverage options, I'm no lomger convinced. This isn't like Greninja where it can run any 4 random coverage moves and it'll still do its job, or like Aegislash, which has multiple moveslots to spare. It's not giving up its STABs, or usually Hammer Arm. Its coverage moves aren't even that powerful due to low Base Power or being unboosted by Tough Claws, meaning that it runs into the same problems as poor Electivire. Basically, checks to it aren't as shaky as they were with the frog and sword.

^ You forgot specially defensive Mega Slowbro

 

[bb skarm]

I think the biggest problem with Metagross is how difficult it is to stop once the opposing team has been weakened a bit. If the opposing team has taken about one stealth rock round and maybe some residual damage, Metagross will surely 2HKO or OHKO them, examples being standard shit like Latios, Rotom-W (Rotom-W actually can't switch in because after Stealth Rock it's 2HKOed, although it should usually be able to WoW 1v1), Mega Gyarados, and Mega Venusaur, as well as a huge amount of other things. Basically, the point here is, is that all it needs is some residual damage before the available switchins available start to shrink.

I also think one huge problem that just sticks out is that it actual has much more physical bulk than that of Skarmory. It can be ridiculous to take down, and it usually requires me to get good spread damage on all my Pokemon. Bisharp can't even OHKO with 252+ LO STAB Sucker Punch and is OHKOed by Hammer Arm. It does have roadblocks though (Slowbro Scizor Skarmory) but they aren't exactly the most splashable Pokemon and aren't on all teams. Basically it just is so tedious to remove from play because of its astronomical bulk and it usually succeeds at doing heavy damage back.

ban

I'll be laddering to vote but for now I stick by this.

 

[Toljik]

I think the biggest problem with Metagross is how difficult it is to stop once the opposing team has been weakened a bit. If the opposing team has taken about one stealth rock round and maybe some residual damage, Metagross will surely 2HKO or OHKO them, examples being standard shit like Latios, Rotom-W (Rotom-W actually can't switch in because after Stealth Rock it's 2HKOed, although it should usually be able to WoW 1v1), Mega Gyarados, and Mega Venusaur, as well as a huge amount of other things. Basically, the point here is, is that all it needs is some residual damage before the available switchins available start to shrink.

I also think one huge problem that just sticks out is that it actual has much more physical bulk than that of Skarmory. It can be ridiculous to take down, and it usually requires me to get good spread damage on all my Pokemon. Bisharp can't even OHKO with 252+ LO STAB Sucker Punch and is OHKOed by Hammer Arm. It does have roadblocks though (Slowbro Scizor Skarmory) but they aren't exactly the most splashable Pokemon and aren't on all teams. Basically it just is so tedious to remove from play because of its astronomical bulk and it usually succeeds at doing heavy damage back.

ban

I'll be laddering to vote but for now I stick by this.

But in return, Metagross is easy to stop when it takes residual damage. There's tons of calcs elsewhere in the thread showing that.

 

[FrocoTerra]

FOUR reasons why not to ban Mega Metagross.

1) Multiple Walls- no matter what you run on Metagross, a combination Skarmory, Slowbro, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Rotom-W, or Magnezone, and Ferrothorn will flat out wall it.

2) No Recovery- Metagross can not recover from Status or Damage without a cleric being on your team, and even then you are forced to lose turns

3) 4 Weaknesses- Metagross is weak to arguably the 4 most popular types in the game, and can be dealt with accordingly

4) Stall teams- Metagross has a hard time breaking walls. If you players would stop running mindless offense you would realize this Pokemon is not a problem.

That's 4 reasons right off the top of my head while I'm ranting. Just because a Pokemon is good does not give it a good enough reason to ban it. Use your brains guys, DO NOT BAN

1. What could you be implying? That every single team runs Skarmory, Slowbro, Landorus-t, Gliscor, Rotom-W, Magnezone and Ferrothorn all at once? That makes no sense, as a combination of that many pokemon is not a 'wall.'

2. When it's sweeping teams and never getting outsped, you don't need recovery. You don't see lack of recovery stopping Greninja, Aegislash, Genesect, Mega Mawile, Mega Lucario and Mega Kangaskhan from going to Ubers

3. 4 Weaknesses is not a big problem. It's weak to Dark, but the most common Dark coverage is easily Knock Off, which does very little as it doesn't get the boost for taking the item. The only Ghost coverage you usually see in OU is Gengar's Shadow Ball, but they mutually KO each other and due to the speed tie Gengar is a very, very shaky stop at best. If you're being forced to risk a 50/50 situation where only one will win, that's not very optimal at all. The Fire weakness is annoying, I guess. Mainly, banded Talonflame and Charizard X give it trouble in a 1v1 situation, but most other things with Fire coverage, while they don't give it a switch, can be KOed in return. Ground weakness, to be honest, isn't a big problem as it can carry Ice Punch. It can't be KOed by Scarf Lando-T's EQ and even after Intimidate (which it can't be on the turn it Megas due to Clear Body) it KOs with Ice Punch. It can take ScarfChomp's Earthquake and of course KO.

You're also ignoring its defensive resists. Resisting Flying is amazing currently, and an immunity to Poison is always handy. Just be sheer typing, it can wall many Pokemon. It has 4 weaknesses, 1 of which is quite rare (Ghost) and another (Dark) can't do too much with its most popular coverage. On the flip side, it has resistances to Ice, Dragon, Psychic, Steel, Poison, Grass, Rock, Fairy, Normal and Flying. That's 10 resists vs. 4 weaknesses, so the weaknesses argument is pointless.

4. Stall is only a problem for MegaGross as long as it carries a check. And, like I and many others have constantly mentioned, it has very few checks. Almost everything is 2HKOed after Rocks other than Mega Scizor. MegaGross actually does pretty well against Stall. 'Mindless offence' is also known as Hyper Offence, which is a playstyle that people play. I don't get what you're implying by calling it mindless. If you're saying the existence of MegaGross completely makes an entire playstyle bad, then that warrants a ban.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

The focus of discussion is the current suspect test and future issues will be handled by tier leaders. Please stop implying that this test holds some sort of relevancy towards tiering that has to do with years from now. Stay on topic.

The problem is this issue is actually the driving factor in some people's decision on the current suspect. Both here and in the Post Greninja Ban Metagame Thread there are multiple instances of people openly saying "I don't think Mega Metagross is broken but let's ban it anyways because it will drop the number of threats to prepare for and alleviate match up issues"

It's worth while for that Anti-Ban side to tackle this reasoning and bring up all the issues that go along with banning something you don't think is broken. (I'm definitely of the opinion that this reasoning is very flawed, very dangerous, not a good solution to match up issues, and a poor way to treat Pokemon you think aren't broken)