Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lord Wallace

Hentai Connoiseur
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Heliolisk's power, coverage and great speed tier makes it a complete pain to switch into and offensive teams are often crushed after it's primary checks (mostly priority attackers like Hariyama and Kangaskhan) have been eliminated, and the fact that it can switch into Water type attacks and recover HP while at it makes it arguably the best offensive support Pokemon in NU, often being able to punch holes for another teammate to sweep if it doesnt. Having access to both Grass Knot and Surf to punish switch ins to Volt Switch is just cruelty, there's essentially nothing you can do to keep Heliolisk from maintaining offensive momentum without getting maimed..
There is almost no risk to using Heliolisk and the reward is massive, very little in NU can keep Heliolisk from doing it's job so at the very least I believe it fits the support category of an unhealthy Pokemon if not also the offensive category, truly a massive strain on teambuilding.
Ban.

I dont't have anything to say about Steelix that hasn't already been stated tbh, I'll most likely vote to Ban it too.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The problem with Heliolisk is that it can easily evade bulky Pokemon that try to check it with Volt Switch, while the Pokemon that happen to stop Volt Switch completely can't switch in safely. xzern you list Hariyama as a counter which I'm okay with, however Hariyama cannot keep 'countering' Heliolisk because of Volt Switch. This is different from something like Typhlosion because Heliolisk actually gains momentum from Hariyama switch-ins and Hariyama can't do anything back, while Heliolisk chips away at it and bring in their Hariyama check for nearly no cost. This applies to Grass-types and the like that are supposed to counter Heliolisk. I find it way too easy using Heliolisk just by clicking Volt Switch while threatening Ground-types with its coverage.
Just some food for thought, you briefly touch on it with LO recoil. With a layer of spikes + LO Heliolisk takes 24% every time it switched in Yama so Heliolisk can only come in 4 times if its constantly volt switching out.
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
let me point out that specs heliolisk isnt worst than life orb. i don't think being locked in a move is that bad since elec/normal/water|grass coverage is good and its not hard to build your team so that you have switch-ins/get set up opportunity with one of your setup sweepers if they bring an immune/resist. what im trying to say is that we probably shouldnt discuss too much about the life orb recoil and how it can make it easier to deal with heliolisk ;)

My opinion on Mega Steelix: I think its unhealthy. It is simply just too good. Sure, the drops gave us some decent options to deal with it, but please remember that while you can indeed have a better check for it on your team, the guy running Mega Steelix can also prepare for them 9.9 . I know this isn't the best argument ever, but cmon being broken doesn't mean that it can't have counters or checks, so pls remember that!

Anyway, Mega Steelix is bulky. REALLY bulky. I am too lazy to post 15+ calcs to prove this when I am sure everybody knows that by now. ''But Soulgazer, Normal Steelix with Leftovers can be quite bulky too and it was fine in XY :D'' pls no. Yes both are bulky, but what I think makes Mega Steelix too good for NU is that its quite strong while being bulky, unlike Normal Steelix which has to choose between being bulky or having more offensive presence. Mega Steelix has both. Ground/Steel coverage has really good coverage in NU and is quite good coming off a base 125 Attack and with 100bp and 120bp (at best) respectively, and lets not forget that Steelix has Stone Edge / Thunder Fang to beat what would resist it. That's another huge thing about Steelix: it only really needs 3 moves. Earthquake, a Steel move, and Stealth Rock (and even then if doesn't need all of them). It can easily run a move to beat one or many of the few checks/counters it has without having 4mss. Steelix has no problem taking hits and OHKOing/2HKOing a big portion of the tier (2HKOes aren't bad for Steelix when it's extremely hard to 2HKO it back lol, just to show you how bulky it is Adamant Feraligatr and Jolly Lum Virizion fails to 2HKO 252/0 Mega Steelix with their STAB).

What FLCL posted below is 100% true too

ok im done posting a big ass wall about stuff that everybody should know!

time to try getting reqs with 5 mons
 
Last edited:
One of the most threatening thing about Heliolisk is its adaptability, which is already being exhibited by the ones running Focus Blast so Cradily doesn't wall them. The other moves I'm generally seeing on them right now are Volt Switch, Surf, Hyper Voice and Grass Knot. Gourgeist, for example, is able to easily tank any combination of the aforementioned moves even without any Special Defense investment, but if Gourgeist becomes common as a Heliolisk counter they can start running Dark Pulse to ensure that it isn't a safe answer either, no matter how much Special Defense it happens to have.

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 177-208 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Finding something that can switch in on anything Heliolisk might run basically means that you're going to be running Hariyama (who still gets worn down with repeated switches) or some NFE Eviolite Dragon type like Sliggoo or Dragonair, which won't tend to be helpful in a lot of other circumstances.

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 68-81 (20 - 23.8%) -- 29.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 75-90 (22 - 26.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, being able to switch safely into Heliolisk's attacks isn't going to stop it from creating momentum with Volt Switch. That's the other main problem, nothing really can do that effectively. Ground types are hit hard by Surf/Grass Knot, and Pokemon with Motor Drive/Volt Absorb are torn apart by Hyper Voice. Even Lanturn can take over half its HP from a Hyper Voice if the Heliolisk is a Specs Variant, but Lanturn does virtually nothing to threaten Heliolisk if it gets in safely anyway, outside of the odd specs Ice beam (which can't even get a guaranteed 2HKO without rocks up).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 119-141 (44.9 - 53.2%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Lanturn: 190-225 (47.3 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Lanturn: 165-196 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Checking it with scarfers obviously isn't going to do much to halt that momentum since they can't actually switch in, and relying on hazards and LO recoil to wear it down while it tears your team apart isn't very appealing.

Tl,DR: Heliolisk's high speed tier, perfect coverage, adaptability and ability to create offensive momentum with almost no risk involved is pretty ridiculous, and most things that can reasonably switch into any possible Heliolisk set are sub-optimal.

I may add some stuff about Megalix later, but that's been very well covered for months now, so I don't suppose its necessary.
 
I may add some stuff about Megalix later, but that's been very well covered for months now, so I don't suppose its necessary.
I dont't have anything to say about Steelix that hasn't already been stated tbh, I'll most likely vote to Ban it too.
i really hope that people don't judge lix on how centralizing it was pre-drops. We all how it was before the drops but the drops have caused a shift in the meta. We all need to go into the test into with a fresh mindset and judge it on how it performs now, instead of how it was in the months since the beginning of ORAS. That doesn't mean that i'm saying don't ban or that it's not still centralizing, I just don't like seeing arguments like "We've already talked about this for months it's obviously gonna be banned"
 

watashi

is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Three-Time Past SPL Champion
World Defender
mega steelix: most people focusing on how bulky or powerful it is, but those arguments are sort of meaningless since anyone who has dabbed in this tier know about these facts. what makes steelix banworthy is its ability to outlast its counters. it takes advantage of a large portion of the tier, meaning it can come in frequently, put a dent in the claydol or mantine coming in, and switch out, taking negligible hazard damage. on top that there is little risk to not use steelix as it is viable on every playstyle and will put in work in every phase of a pokemon match. these factors cause the metagame to revolve around countering or luring steelix and discourages people from using certain pokemon (or a lot in this case)

heliolisk: it's just an inferior rotom ?_?
 


Heliolisk is such a threat in the current metagame as I'm sure everyone knows by now. Well say hi to specially defensive torterra, shoutout to mah boi Can-Eh-Dian. For once, you can take away Heliolisk's momentum and not lose your ground type to a surf or grass knot. In addition to handling Heliolisk, Torterra gets access to recovery in synthesis and stealth rock. Here are some calcs showing the bulk of Torterra:

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torterra: 136-161 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 61.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (.chew)

252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Torterra: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (.fuckingchew)
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor

Mega Steelix: This is a kind of a 'no-brainer' Pokemon to use. Its bulk, power, and few reliable counters in the tier make it one of the most centralising Pokemon in the tier by far. Its power is a huge step up from regular Steelix and make it much harder to switch into, its physical Defense is now so massive it no longer requires any sort of investment, and its Special Defense has now been bumped up to a respectable degree. Even its weight increase gave it even more viability as Heavy Slam now hits its cap (120 BP) on even Rhydon, who is no lightweight itself, and everything lighter than it, aka >90% of the tier. Basically, if you decide to run any of these Pokemon, most of which are commonplace:
Kangaskhan
Archeops
Uxie
Mesprit
Musharna
Pawniard
Sneasel
Mega Audino
Garbodor
Scyther
Vivillon
Swellow
Rotom (without Will-O-Wisp)
Xatu (without Heat Wave)
Mismagius (without Will-O-Wisp)
Cryogonal
Liepard
Mega Camerupt (without speed investment)
You'll need a good Mega Steelix switch-in (which are few and far between), and one that can outlast it too considering how hard Mega Steelix walls some of these Pokemon and take heavy potshots at your team. The list also extends beyond these Pokemon; Mega Steelix can often squeeze its way safely into battle by switching into resisted attacks with more than enough health to survive any subsequent coverage moves (this can apply to Mawile, Tauros, Kecleon, Archeops, etc...), and proceed to start hitting things hard. Mega Steelix can easily afford a free moveslot as well: Thunder Fang does heavy damage to Pelipper and especially Mantine (which is common af nowadays), Stone Edge hits Rotom-S as well as the aforementioned two (albeit with less damage and accuracy), and Toxic just puts a timer on those three plus bulky Grass-types like Gourgeist, Tangela, and Torterra which none of them appreciate. Mega Steelix may not have reliable recovery, but it is not easy to wear down since most coverage moves simply bounce off its tough exterior while it does hefty damage to your team on a fairly consistent basis.

Also fuck this thing with Healing Wish support.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
heliolisk: it's just an inferior superior rotom ?_?
fooly please what r u smokin' I want some


Heliolisk: Yet another "no-brainer" Pokemon to use. Earlier I talked about how its Volt Switches are really hard to stop due to its coverage, so it is really hard to counter in the traditional sense, but that's not the only problem at hand. Heliolisk has great power and speed, the speed especially putting it ahead of several Pokemon in the tier. Now, combine its offensive presence, wide and precise coverage movepool, and access to Volt Switch, and you'll see this is a Pokemon that can easily take the lives of many, be it directly or indirectly, before it goes down.

I see two possible arguments people would have against Heliolisk's ban. First off is the fraility, but Heliolisk is so good at avoiding direct damage that this usually doesn't end up mattering, or even happening @_@. You can pack priority users and faster Pokemon to keep Helio in check, but chances are you won't get to face Heliolisk with them unless you let it finish off one of your Pokemon without Volt Switching away, or if you pivot switch / bait an attack other than Volt Switch like some sort of prediction lord (if you do try the latter, you'll even need to ensure your revenge killer can take Heliolisk's attacks). However even if you do, Heliolisk can still switch out and try again later, forcing you to play the same prediction game again to force it out without taking major damage, but Heliolisk only has to predict once to screw up that plan.

The second point people would bring up is that its power is not overwhelming, nor does it have a boosting move. However, these people tend to overlook both Heliolisk's offensive stats and wide movepool. The difference between Surf Heliolisk and, say HP Water Rotom-S, is that Rotom-S uses HP Water almost solely for things like Mega Camerupt and Rhydon and not being too useful elsewhere (hell it doesn't even OHKO its targets); Heliolisk not only uses Surf for the various Ground-types, but can totally use it for revenge killing Fire-types. This is possible due to Heliolisk's power and excellent speed tier. Now realize that this trait of 'having its coverage moves be universally useful' doesn't just apply to Surf; all of its coverage moves can hit multiple foes outside of their intended targets. Dark Pulse can hit Gourgeist, but why not use it against Mismagius, Mesprit, and Exeggutor as well? Focus Blast's intended use is to hit Ferroseed and Cradily, but even if those two aren't in play Heliolisk can just use it to smack other things like Audino, Cryogonal, and even Kangaskhan if it is feeling adventurous. The sheer coverage, when coupled with Helio's offensive stats, not only make it tricky to counter, but also give it immense offensive presence at the same time, with Heliolisk barely suffering any sort of cost from running these moves. Heliolisk is not only tricky to counter, but it threatens a vast majority of Pokemon in the meta at the same time. It's just far too good and efficient at its job(s) and there's no reason not to use it right now, which is a sign that it may be more of a detriment than a healthy addition for metagame progression.
 
I'm glad to see mega Steelix being tested :]. Mega Steelix is an extremely low opportunity cost pokemon, and you are basically doing yourself a disservice by using a different mega in NU. It is able to effectively wall a large portion of the tier whilst maintaining offensive presence. Powerful STAB moves provide good coverage, resisted by only Mantine and Rotom. Other checks (Ferroseed, Musharna, Uxie, Seismitoad) can be beaten by a coverage move, worn down with toxic, or beaten by the rest/curse set. I'll probably vote to ban mega Steelix for the combination of walling ability and offensive presence. Mantine is one of the best counters, but Steelix can beat it with stone edge or thunder fang, or you can switch out to the counter: Heliolisk.
Call it a segue.

It's a bit of a shame that Heliolisk wasn't around for long, but it does seem like a problem in NU. I actually haven't played NU since the recent tier shifts, but I can see Heliolisk being suspect-worthy for the combination of speed, power and volt switch. AV Hariyama will be much easier to wear down with Heliolisk in the tier, so pairing it with Typhlosion could be threatening. Life orb seems like the most viable set, and LO damage + hazard damage (especially with repeated volt switching) would make Heliolisk reasonably easy to wear down, so I'm not sure which way I'll vote at this stage.
 

Quite Quiet

why fall in love when you can fall asleep
is a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
TFP Leader
As the metagame looks right now, even after drops that give Mega Steelix a little harder time, it might just be the easiest pokemon to slap on a team and see it do work. It fits on every kind of team depending on set and can run defensive, offensive or support setseffectively. With good enough STAB coverage it hits pretty much the entire tier for at least neutral and with 125 attack even uninvested hits hurt :[ It has such an overwhelming presence in the metagame that most physical attackers that doesn't have Water, Fire, Ground or Fighting coverage simply are unusable, making the metagame around us less diverse as a result. And even when you do run mons that deal with it Mega Steelix still has the defenses to tank most unboosted hits well enough that it still can take on some of it's supposed checks if it has to.

I personally don't think Heliolisk is among the most broken things in the metagame right now, but I understand that when you outspeed most mons in the tier without a scarf and hit hard enough to avoid almost every kind of damage can be too good. I might say more later but for now I'm not sure where I stand on the matter.

Also let's not attack each other, shall we...
 
As much as I love using Heliolisk, it's just way too good to stay in NU. It pretty much feels like the Greninja of the tier, and although it doesn't have access to Protean, Dry Skin is certainly not a bad ability to have, especially with Electric-STAB. It can also carry coverage for any checks, including HP Ice for Torterra should that become common.

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Torterra: 265-317 (67.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now obviously Heliolisk can't run Volt Switch, Surf, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, HP Ice, and Hyper Voice, but you can pretty easily choose Volt and either 3 coverage moves or Hyper Voice and 2 of those moves and find other ways to deal with the things it can't cover. As has been stated previously, it's combination of speed, coverage, and ability make it slightly too good in this meta. Ban.

Alternatively, we could just run assault vest on every mon and suddenly Heliolisk sux 8==D~

I hate Mega-Lix with a passion. It's way too hard to kill and does way too much damage for a tank. Ban this thing asap.
 
Honestly Heliolisk really isnt that overcentralizing.
As a special normal type compare it to pyroar, who has stronger stabs, and burning capabilities.
As an offensive volt switch spammer, you can compare it to raichu who has arguably the same amount of coverage, and can raise its power with nasty plot.

POWER - Most of the tier's best special attackers literally sit at 105-109 SpA tier, and most abuse stronger stabs then heliolisk, so i dont see why its so overpowered in most people's opinions. So power wise, its not really super broken, considering the others use 110 Base Power stabs.

COVERAGE - So heliolisk has the ability to hit most of tiers volt switch blockers hard. So does raichu, and electivire, but volt switch spamming is really only a concern due to the omnipresence of mega steelix, since every team has mantine or another water type to try to beat mega steelix.

SPEED - Look at pyroar, another special normal who sits over the 105 speed tier. The only threat that sits between 107-108 in nu is virizion, who heliolisk has trouble beating anyways.

Either way, heliolisk has 4mss regardless of what set it decides to run. It has no sweeping capabilities, essentially its nothing but an offensive pivot. Alsohazard stack + life orb recoil can add up fast (no, dry skin is not reliable recovery unless you are a prediction god) so i don't feel as tho this thing is truly ban worthy.

As for megalix.... seriously this snake is too meta changing. Nu is supposed to be a tier where the absolute worst mons/typings (bug, grass, poison, psychic) can thrive and make a real tier. Megalix renders so many mons completely unusable just based on his defensive stats and typing alone, never the less he can tank banded close combats from full health and ko most back with a heavy slam. Steelix doesnt even need a 4th move, its really just there for fun. This snake has seriously turned the neverused tier into nothing but fire/water spam, and every person on the ladder running mantine/steelix with 4 of thier favorite mons.


As much as I love using Heliolisk, it's just way too good to stay in NU. It pretty much feels like the Greninja of the tier, and although it doesn't have access to Protean, Dry Skin is certainly not a bad ability to have, especially with Electric-STAB. It can also carry coverage for any checks, including HP Ice for Torterra should that become common.

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Torterra: 265-317 (67.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now obviously Heliolisk can't run Volt Switch, Surf, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, HP Ice, and Hyper Voice, but you can pretty easily choose Volt and either 3 coverage moves or Hyper Voice and 2 of those moves and find other ways to deal with the things it can't cover. As has been stated previously, it's combination of speed, coverage, and ability make it slightly too good in this meta. Ban.

Alternatively, we could just run assault vest on every mon and suddenly Heliolisk sux 8==D~

I hate Mega-Lix with a passion. It's way too hard to kill and does way too much damage for a tank. Ban this thing asap.
there is no need to run hidden power ice, the coverage is weak and no one runs torterra because this tier is full of fire and water types (with ice coverage).
 
On a rare occasion, I actually agree with Oshony PokeGod with this and heliolisk.

It's an offensive pivot that is really good at doing its job, but the only reason it may seem broken right now or too good rather is the limiting capabilities of our team building for mega-steelix. Due to heliolisk being around, pokemon such as mantine, prinplup, pelipper all are being ran right now to combat the snake, which allows heliolisk too many free switches and does it's job too well. On its own however, i don't think heliolisk is broken remotely and I don't think it should be banned. It's got very good coverage and speed, it can come in on a lot of mons, it's a good pokemon that's for sure.

However, there are plenty of stops to it that need to be found, such as cryagonal, uxie, musharna, hariyama, they all sponge hits and can retaliate. It's literally a case of just preparing for a good pokemon like in any tier and i feel helio has no real outstanding banworthy qualities, even though I think i was the first to point out that it would probably be suspected. I think people just need to adapt their teambuilding, stop running mono-scald attacking, choose different mons (I know amarillo has been using pelipper with u-turn to bop the helio) and people should just use more hazards such as spikes if it's a problem since it won't be able to volt switch freely. People need to adapt and this pokemon is something that people need to prepare for just like any other special attacker.

However mega-steelix on the other hand; I don't find it as problematic as i did before the drops, purely because all of the drops beat it and they are very good pokemon dropping into the tier. However on its own I feel it's on another level to 95% of the pokemon in this tier. Its ability to sponge hit after hit and be immune to poison, quad resist rocks and beat every spike setter bar qwilfish is on another level. I feel for certain that right now if mega-steelix were to go, it would have a massive shift on the meta and it would be for a positive effect. This pokemon has such immense power that it can beat all psychic types, even xatu with heat wave and even recover up damage with rest, healing wish and can even invest in defense. It has perfect coverage with edgequake, and heavy slam making all of its attacks powerful and even in sand it is insanely powerful too with its ability which i have used and had success with in the past. Right now I see and find mega-steelix a lot more banworthy than heliolisk and even after the drops, i feel it's still a powerhouse.

In conclusion;
Helio is not broken on its own, just has good match ups vs a lot of standard teams that were used to be overprepared for steelix.
Steelix is too good, its counters are far and few between and it is far too good at its job.
 

watashi

is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Three-Time Past SPL Champion
World Defender
heliolisk's banworthy quality is that it can perform the role of a powerful attacker and pivot at the same time, which sets it apart from pokemon with similar roles, such as typhlosion, pyroar, xatu, and mesprit. with proper teammates, a good player could easily dismantle a team since all it takes is one prediction to take out or severely damage the opposing ground immunity. from then on it's hard to stop heliolisk from doing it's job even with pokemon that can sponge its hits. you could say that this argument applies to any volt switcher, but heliolisk's speed and ability gives it way too many free opportunities which makes it hard to deal with.
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
imo, you should not think about how one of the suspect might not be as broken if the other leaves. ex: Teddeh saying that Heliolisk is too good because of Mega Steelix's presence. You should vote with the current metagame in mind. lets say we end up banning both (just an exemple): Heliolisk will end up in BL#. If in the next month or two Heliolisk doesn't see enough usage to rise back to RU, the NU council can decide to retest Heliolisk back into NU if we think it won't be as much of a problem as it used to be (see: Jynx in BW2 NU, it was banned in BW1 iirc and Zeb decided drop it in NU to see if it was too much (we did end up banning it again but thats not the point)). Please don't theorymon about a possible future metagame that currently doesn't exist and don't let that affect your vote!

correct me if im wrong rofl
 
I would just like to have my input on the current suspect mons:

Mega Steelix: Right, where to start. I hear a lot of people arguing that mega lix shouldnt be banned because its not broken. To be padantic a broken mons is considered such when it has few checks/counters in the tier it resides in. Mega Lix does not have this trait. You can't just spam heavy slam and expect 6 mons to fall like that. I would liken it to Aegislash back when it was in OU. It had a few checks and a few counters here and there but what set it apart from the rest of the mons was its ability to wall 50% of the metagame, thus making threats completely useless. It also had a fantastic typing which meant you could slap it on every team and it would perform the exact same with little to no support. (There were some other reasons but I'm not gonna go into those) When we look at mega lix, yes, there are checks and counters but that's not what makes it broken. Its the ability to wall a significant portion of the metagame thanks to its fantastic typing (in NU terms) and extreme bulk on both sides. Its typing also justifys the slot of it on almost every team thanks to its access to stealth rocks meaning it can provide priceless support. It can dragon tail/roar checks so that along with hazards they are taking huge damage per turn at no cost to mega steelix. It does also have the ability, as previously mentioned, to outlive its checks and counters. Once they are disposed of, nothing really enjoys taking a 120 BP stab heavy slam or a 100 BP stab earthquake, denting holes in the opponents team. Either way; mega lix just seems so limiting for so many mons in the meta right now, rendering some completely useless and generally centralising the meta in a non-healthy manner. However, with the future meta in mind, I so feel regular steelix is still an important part of it. Otherwise I would hate to think of the havock the likes of kangaskhan, swellow, archeops and mega audino would do to our tier, so by removing one problem we are unintentionally making several more. Overall though; Ban Steelixite

Heliolisk: this thing is crazy good and fun to use, it has almost zero drawbacks to running it on any offense team as it allows you to be an offensive pivot switching in and out causing more damage than its actually taking, which is the real bonus point to using it. It gives loads of trouble for the likes of mantine and pelipper because those mons bait in heliolisk to come and suddenly apply huge offensive pressure on your opponent as a result. It seems to have a way around almost every ground type in the tier (including Mega Steelix) which means that not only can it cause huge damage courtesy of its great coverage, great speed and great power, it can keep momentum for your team making the next mons job that little bit easier. It has 4mss a tad, but the first 4 moves aren't really that difficult to identify, it gets not disadvantages from running one coverage over another. However, again, its not the broken qualities that tip heliolisk over the edge for me. Its the ability to completely dismantle entire team cores at an instant, and with no switch ins, it can weaken the mons that can take 1 hit courtesy of volt switch and proceed to clean in the later stages of the game. The best way I've found to deal with heliolisk is by stacking hazards and hoping all the recoil it will have to take from voltswitch +sr +spikes damage racks up enough for it to be deemed useless pivoting in and out of my special wall to make sure the damage it is doing back to me is as small as possible, but that's centralizing and uncompetitive in itself. Overall; I would say Heliolisk has been a blast to use and is a cool Mon all around but for now I'm gonna say : Ban Heliolisk
 
Last edited:

ryan

Jojo Siwa enthusiast
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
However, with the future meta in mind, I so feel regular steelix is still an important part of it. Otherwise I would hate to think of the havock the likes of kangaskhan, swellow, archeops and mega audino would do to our tier, so by removing one problem we are unintentionally making several more.
This isn't really a problem. Even if Mega Steelix is banned, we still have regular Steelix, Rhydon, Ferroseed, Klinklang, and Regirock to check these Pokemon, and all of them get significantly better without Mega Steelix around both because they struggle with it and they will no longer compete for a teamslot with it. Even if a lack of Mega Steelix did make those Pokemon broken, it wouldn't be a good reason to keep Mega Steelix in the metagame if we thought it deserved to be banned. We can always suspect future broken Pokemon as well.

FLCL's posts are on point. Both of these Pokemon are just way too good at what they do to fit in well among other NU Pokemon. The biggest problem with Heliolisk is that it's almost impossible to block its Volt Switch because it beats bulky Ground-types with Surf/Grass Knot, which means it just gets free momentum the entire game and deals good damage while it does it. Every incredibly threatening Pokemon in NU becomes even more threatening when paired with Heliolisk because it can get a free switch and start smashing things, and Heliolisk itself can just clean teams on its own later on in the match because it's so fast and strong. Mega Steelix has been beaten into the ground, but it's still just as good as it was before the last tier shift.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
got reqs, get at me

used mega lix and heliolisk and was sadly underwhelmed by both especially megalix.


K so on megalix. i hear it walls 50% of the meta. maybe but no one USES that 50% of the meta. Is that massively fucked up? Yes, maybe, i don't know, but i didn't find it broken as a result. Overcentralize->broken...i am leaning towards that tbh.

heliolisk was always threatening as fuck to me, but i couldn't get it to work for me back. too many checks and counters being used. also, i feel like raichu can do a lot of what helio does, though lack of a secondary stab and SpA obviously hurt.
 

Pokedots

How should I live to be happy
is a Contributor Alumnus
got reqs, get at me

used mega lix and heliolisk and was sadly underwhelmed by both especially megalix.


K so on megalix. i hear it walls 50% of the meta. maybe but no one USES that 50% of the meta. Is that massively fucked up? Yes, maybe, i don't know, but i didn't find it broken as a result. Overcentralize->broken...i am leaning towards that tbh.

heliolisk was always threatening as fuck to me, but i couldn't get it to work for me back. too many checks and counters being used. also, i feel like raichu can do a lot of what helio does, though lack of a secondary stab and SpA obviously hurt.
Hyper Voice and the extra special attack are just THAT big a deal; the ability to get past Grass-types and Lanturn are invaluable as it's an Electric-type that can't be stopped by the typical Electric-type answers, outside of like SpD Torterra. The meta simply does not have the mons to handle Heliolisk properly atm
 
Alright since I see a lot of people arguing why mega steelix and heliolisk should leave FOR THE SAKE OF FAIRNESS AND ARGUMENT I'm gonna state reasons that I've heard being mentioned for either Mon NOT to be banned. These aren't my personal opinions but I would like to see people shot me down in flames either way;

Mega Steelix
  • The Drops we received in February help us check and counter Mega Steelix and in some cases lure and 2hko it in Heliolisk case. Basically, drops aid dealing with it, it isn't as prominent or as game changing.
  • Easily worn down through residual damage and acts as a momentum pit if you do manages to rest and sleep talk; invites sweepers to set up and be threatening to the rest of the team
  • Several special attackers manage to hit mega lix for super effective damage and 9/10 times ohko it, therefore forcing the switch.
  • No shortage of switchins, we have several bulky waters, bulky fighters and even ground types that manage to switching without real fear bar being toxic'd or rocks getting thrown up.
  • Its not got the recovery to wall teams at a time, possibly only going to be good use for 2 mons at a time, any more would be supplying it with too much work and eventually it will be weakened and die.
  • Only really ever one set; rocks dual stab roar being most common or an extra coverage move instead of roar. Otherwise it runs rest + sleeptalk and dual stab. Often means it in an attacking sense its quite mundane and predictable every time it comes in
  • If it gets status'd by a burn for example its attacking presence is completely nullified and therefore setup mons have a hell of a time vs it.
  • Is already considered as a top threat in the current metagame, so there will be lures waiting to catch you on the switch in if the opposing user wants mega steelix out of the way for his other sweepers (e.g. SD lo low kick sneasel or Pawniard and Mega Crodino cores)
  • Can be completely eliminated from the field of battle by a magnet pull epower probopass with magnet rise, if your team relys on this Mon to counter half the Meta it can be left open to this strategy.
Heliolisk
Relativelyfrail, therefore can be easily check by any strong priority user (e.g. Kangaskhan) so can often put a lot of pressure on the defensive core and structure of your team
  • Can be easily worn down due to no resistance to hazards (takes 12% from SR and 12% from one layer of spike) If you add life orb recoil it can be taking up to 1/3 of its HP every time it switches in
  • Common threats in the current meta game (Hariyama, Audino) check the Mon therefore will have trouble cleaning some teams that have more bulk than standard offense for example.
  • Sits in a the tricky speed tier where Archeops can out speed it, while those might seem advantageous a team might rely on Heliolisk to be there offensive presence vs birds but it doesn't out speed either swellow or archeops which can be problematic, you lose momentum.
  • No setup move so can hardly break teams with standard life orb boosted attacks, the maximum boost you can give it is through solar power which may hinder your team
  • Requires really strong player prediction for it to be made the most of; a n00b who knows nothing about NU would need to know loads about the tier in order to use it to great effect.
  • Volt Switch can be blocked by ground type mons, therefore momentum gain (at times) is minimal
Some of these aarguments might not be the best and I recognise this but for the SAKE OF FAIRNESS AND ARGUMENT I decide to try and make a list of what arguments people could actually make if they wanted mega steelix or heliolisk to stay.
I'm ready for the abuse
 

Blast

Member of the Alien Nation
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm not really buying that the drops have made Steelix all that easier to deal with anyway. Yeah there's "more" Pokemon now that can beat or check it but that doesn't change the factor that makes Steelix banworthy in the first place, which is the fact that because of its bulk and typing it can come in multiple times a match on the numerous amount of Pokemon that can't do shit to it, while being able to apply a lot of pressure to its switch-ins with its power and STAB coverage. Even with a couple more option to weaken or beat it it's still doing the same thing it was doing before.

In addition I don't see how a lot of things listed above make Steelix any less broken. Obviously there are plenty of special attackers that can OHKO Steelix, anything can be revenge killed. Also, there are very little Pokemon in this metagame that can switch in "without fear," because its STAB moves alone can wear down even bulky resists quickly. It doesn't need to be super-unpredictable to be broken either, especially because it doesn't actually need anything other than its STABs and two fillers. Almost every Pokemon in the game is crippled by status. And obviously people will always adapt to top threats, but Steelix in particular forces an unhealthy level of adaptation to the point where it can be considered broken. (Also as a PS I wish people wouldn't use that whole "overcentralization" argument, I mean if a Pokemon warps the meta around itself to where you want it banned I don't see how that's not "broken" lol)
 

Shuckleking87

"Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
How to make a team in current nu (aka how to get easy reqs):
Mega Steelix + heliolisk + xatu (hazard disuader that can somewhat deal with lilligant) + something to take special attacks (usually hariyama). From here, typhlosion is usually a good 5th bet, the 6th slot can be up for grab (virizion, feraligatr, mesprit, lilligant or something weak to rocks like scyther, vivillon, swellow, archeops etc).
I am trying to make a stall team to get reqs, which is partially difficult with recent internet connection, but mega steelix makes it extremely difficult to do so. Obviously plenty has been said about it, but it shuts down many pokes in the tier. its typing lets it shrug off most attackers in the tier just with hp investment, which it then invest in attack, with high base power moves that do heavy damage to pretty much any wall barring bulky waters, tangela and weezing. Which, of course, heliolisk can deal with quite nicely. Mega steelix has alot of versatility in its last 2 move slots to beat whatever counters/checks it wants (rest being a painful choice against stall teams).
Heliolisk pairs really nice with steelix because it is a momentum building pokemon that can defeat all pokes that give steelix problems (specially defensive torterra is 2hko by hp ice just sayin). Yeah, heliolisk has a little bit of 4mss after hyper voice and volt switch, but the threat is still there. It also has 2 great stab moves it can easily spam, which easily separates it from seemingly similar pokes like raichu and rotom.
So yeah both pokes have their individual counters but the tandem is really really good, and severely limits teambuilding imo
 

shiloh

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Tiering Lead
Even though I love using it in NU, Heliolisk is broken in my opinion and needs to be Banned (Still a bit on the fence though)

While there may be many other Fast Special attackers in the tier, Heliolisk holds to much over them, and needs to be taken care of. The main problems lie in its Coverage options. It has such a strong and diverse move pool, being able to hit most of the tier for tons of damage, and if it ever gets into trouble it can just volt switch out. The combination of being a Pivot + Strong Speed Tier + Diverse Movepool + And a decent Special Attack is just too much for the tier right now. There is also very little opportunity cost on it right now, as it checks the two biggest megas in the tier (Steelix + Camerupt), and it isn't a mega evolution. While it may have a tough matchup against play styles like Stall, it can just spread around damage with Volt Switch, and go into pokemon like Steelix to take care of the opposing team.

The only reason I am still on the borderline is because of how frail it is. 62 / 52 / 94 is just pathetic in my view. It can barely stomach some Priority moves, but it is very easy to wear down with Stealth Rock + Life Orb. But this does not outweigh the for ban arguments, as it is just too good not to use right now.

(not going to keep my opinion on MegaLix because I do not use it that much to have a opinion on it)
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Sorry for the long post, wanted to reply to somethings and just got to a computer to reply to all the things I wanted to.

However, there are plenty of stops to it that need to be found, such as cryagonal, uxie, musharna, hariyama, they all sponge hits and can retaliate. It's literally a case of just preparing for a good pokemon like in any tier and i feel helio has no real outstanding banworthy qualities, even though I think i was the first to point out that it would probably be suspected. I think people just need to adapt their teambuilding, stop running mono-scald attacking, choose different mons (I know amarillo has been using pelipper with u-turn to bop the helio) and people should just use more hazards such as spikes if it's a problem since it won't be able to volt switch freely. People need to adapt and this pokemon is something that people need to prepare for just like any other special attacker.
Teddeh, the thing that sets Heliolisk apart from other Pokemon with good speed and attack / spa is that it can Volt Switch out of unfavorable matchup. Your stops are irrelevant if the opponent just volt switches on your switch and brings in a favorable matchup. The fact that it sits at such a high speed tier, outpacing the majority of the unboosted meta, and can run coverage to beat the things that can potentially stop its Volt Switch is what makes it ban worthy. If it had to rely on a choice item to boost its speed or attack this quality would be less pronounced, but pretty much every relevant Ground-type is beat by Grass Knot / Surf / HP Ice, since Heliolisk can effectively run a non choiced item.
You should vote with the current metagame in mind.
Yes please do this, don't theorymon future metas and base your vote off of this. If in future metas a mon appears to be not broken it can be reintroduced and tested to see if that is the case.
Alright since I see a lot of people arguing why mega steelix and heliolisk should leave FOR THE SAKE OF FAIRNESS AND ARGUMENT I'm gonna state reasons that I've heard being mentioned for either Mon NOT to be banned. These aren't my personal opinions but I would like to see people shot me down in flames either way;
Thanks for summing it up bud.
Mega Steelix
  • The Drops we received in February help us check and counter Mega Steelix and in some cases lure and 2hko it in Heliolisk case. Basically, drops aid dealing with it, it isn't as prominent or as game changing.
Yes the drops help to some extent, but not to the point where Mega Steelix isn't broke.
  • Easily worn down through residual damage and acts as a momentum pit if you do manages to rest and sleep talk; invites sweepers to set up and be threatening to the rest of the team
It is resistant to rocks and running hazard support isn't hard in this meta. It isn't really a momentum pit, even if you switch it in to counter something (unless it U-turns out) the opponent will be forced to switch. Whatever they decide to bring in is going to have to take heavy damage from Steelix. If its running Rest Talk it isn't really a momentum pit either, as its ment to be able to come in multiple times and wall certain Pokemon which can do nothing back.
  • Several special attackers manage to hit mega lix for super effective damage and 9/10 times ohko it, therefore forcing the switch.
Everything takes Super Effective damage from something lol. Mega lix is usually paired with something like Hariyama because yama can take care of Fire-types and mega lix can take care of Psychic-types.
  • No shortage of switchins, we have several bulky waters, bulky fighters and even ground types that manage to switching without real fear bar being toxic'd or rocks getting thrown up.
Just because something has checks and counters doesn't mean its not broken. Just as when something has no counters doesn't mean its broken.
  • Its not got the recovery to wall teams at a time, possibly only going to be good use for 2 mons at a time, any more would be supplying it with too much work and eventually it will be weakened and die.
If it could straight up wall teams at a time it would of been gone long ago, it has 5 other teammates to help out in that cause. Yes you don't want to place to much strain on it, but the same is said of pretty much every other mon.
  • Only really ever one set; rocks dual stab roar being most common or an extra coverage move instead of roar. Otherwise it runs rest + sleeptalk and dual stab. Often means it in an attacking sense its quite mundane and predictable every time it comes in
I don't see how thats really a point for not banning something, just because you know what something is going to do doesn't mean its any less hard to deal with.
  • If it gets status'd by a burn for example its attacking presence is completely nullified and therefore setup mons have a hell of a time vs it.
As is any Pokemon that gets hit with a crippling status?
  • Is already considered as a top threat in the current metagame, so there will be lures waiting to catch you on the switch in if the opposing user wants mega steelix out of the way for his other sweepers (e.g. SD lo low kick sneasel or Pawniard and Mega Crodino cores)
That is the meta adapting to top tier threats. But are some of those Pokemon running stuff like Low Kick over much more viable moves, such as Pawniard running Low Kick over the better coverage move of Iron Head.
  • Can be completely eliminated from the field of battle by a magnet pull epower probopass with magnet rise, if your team relys on this Mon to counter half the Meta it can be left open to this strategy.
So I've run that specific set to trap and eliminate mega lix for other members on my team. Outside of trapping mega lix it is rather underwhelming, on top of this Mega Lix can easily prepare for this and run either Dragon Tail or Roar to get around being trapped, which has happened to me before.
Heliolisk
Relatively frail, therefore can be easily check by any strong priority user (e.g. Kangaskhan) so can often put a lot of pressure on the defensive core and structure of your team
You can just switch out against obvious priority moves and save Heliolisk for later, on top of that it has decent enough bulk to take a hit from full. But I agree it is a bit frail, although it isn't ment to be walling anything.
  • Can be easily worn down due to no resistance to hazards (takes 12% from SR and 12% from one layer of spike) If you add life orb recoil it can be taking up to 1/3 of its HP every time it switches in
Hazard control is rather easily run in this meta, as well as the fact that you can run other items over LO to avoid recoil. Healing Wish support is also a thing that is easily placed upon teams that doesn't just benefit Heliolisk.
  • Common threats in the current meta game (Hariyama, Audino) check the Mon therefore will have trouble cleaning some teams that have more bulk than standard offense for example.
Heliolisk can just Volt Switch out as these Pokemon switch in into more favorable matchup, that is part of the main reason why Heliolisk is so threatening. Also it doesn't have to try to clean until things are worn down enough from chip damage of Volt Switch, it can easily switch in and out until that point.
  • Sits in a the tricky speed tier where Archeops can out speed it, while those might seem advantageous a team might rely on Heliolisk to be there offensive presence vs birds but it doesn't out speed either swellow or archeops which can be problematic, you lose momentum.
Its speed tier is actually really quite good. If a person is weak to threats such as swellow and archeops than that is a problem with their teambuilding. (If Heliolisk outpaced Archeops it would be that much more deadly)
  • No setup move so can hardly break teams with standard life orb boosted attacks, the maximum boost you can give it is through solar power which may hinder your team
you can run charge beam like a lord It doesn't need a boosting move, its ment to wear down teams by forcing them to constantly switch and to be constantly placing offensive pressure on a team.
  • Requires really strong player prediction for it to be made the most of; a n00b who knows nothing about NU would need to know loads about the tier in order to use it to great effect.
Ehhh, its not tooo hard to use properly. But just because it isn't the most n00b friendly Pokemon isn't really a good reason for not banning something.
  • Volt Switch can be blocked by ground type mons, therefore momentum gain (at times) is minimal
OML if this were actually a thing I would be less inclined to think Heliolisk should probably leave. Heliolisk's coverage is devastating to Ground-types, like I said above, it can take out every relevant one with its coverage moves.
I am trying to make a stall team to get reqs
Good Luck with that
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top