Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Yeah, BP is really gimmicky and I don't believe it needs to be nerfed at all. There's entirely too many counterplay options, and even without the hard counters like Taunt, phazing, Haze, etc, smart players can read BP plays and punish accordingly. Moves like Taunt, Roar, and Haze aren't even obscure either, and you're actually in a worse off spot against most teams by not having some kind of check to set-up sweepers. BP is the same thing except they take one less turn, essentially. Plus, as many people have brought up, hazards ruin it.

Mienfoo, while very central to the metagame, isn't unhealthy either. It can fulfill a variety of roles very well, but it's not a Pokemon that's going to automatically win any games. Because this is a Fighting-dominant meta, the meta is geared around checking potential Fighting-type threats. As such, Mienfoo has a myriad of checks, and that's not solely because of Mienfoo, but because of other dominant Fighting-types as well, so Mienfoo isn't as centralizing as some people make it out to be. If Mienfoo were to go, Fighting-types in general would still be very powerful, and a new dominant Fighting Pokemon (most likely Timburr) would take its place, and not much would change. VoltTurn teams would adapt incredibly easily; that playstyle isn't going anywhere. The meta is fine where it is, and suspecting perfectly fine Pokemon to ruin it and cause more "innovation" (read: chaos) to happen is pretty silly. There's nothing really worth suspecting at all at this point.
 
I think we need to take a step back and remember the purpose of a suspect test in Little Cup in particular. Suspect tests are for the sake of evaluating a Pokemon in the metagame so we, the community, can make an intelligent decision about its placement. While I am not necessarily for or against Mienfoo getting banned, I agree with fatty in that it has enough positive qualities where a suspect test is reasonable. If we come to the conclusion that the metagame is perfect and that nothing deserves a suspect test unless it's explicitly broken, which many of you do, we might as well just close this threadand declare the tier finished. If instead we use suspect tests as they are supposed to, we can consistently attempt to improve the tier.

Also keep in mind that the process might change depending on the Pokemon in question. For example, if an incredibly subjective Pokemon like Mienfoo or Pawniard was suspected, I would recommend implementing a ladder without the suspects for discussion's sake.
 

Camden

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I think we need to take a step back and remember the purpose of a suspect test in Little Cup in particular. Suspect tests are for the sake of evaluating a Pokemon in the metagame so we, the community, can make an intelligent decision about its placement. While I am not necessarily for or against Mienfoo getting banned, I agree with fatty in that it has enough positive qualities where a suspect test is reasonable. If we come to the conclusion that the metagame is perfect and that nothing deserves a suspect test unless it's explicitly broken, which many of you do, we might as well just close this threadand declare the tier finished. If instead we use suspect tests as they are supposed to, we can consistently attempt to improve the tier.

Also keep in mind that the process might change depending on the Pokemon in question. For example, if an incredibly subjective Pokemon like Mienfoo or Pawniard was suspected, I would recommend implementing a ladder without the suspects for discussion's sake.

I would actually much prefer if we did our suspect ladder this way. I don't think it'll end up changing at this point unless we can convince Rowan/macle to do it, but I think the decision-making process will be much easier to go through if we do this. We've already played enough of the meta the way it is now so we already know how we feel about everything. If we played without the suspect(s) it would allow for a while new range of experimentation, and we can see what the meta would truly be like. I fully respect the system we use now, but I think it's pretty obvious what should be suspected.
 
I would actually much prefer if we did our suspect ladder this way. I don't think it'll end up changing at this point unless we can convince Rowan/macle to do it, but I think the decision-making process will be much easier to go through if we do this. We've already played enough of the meta the way it is now so we already know how we feel about everything. If we played without the suspect(s) it would allow for a while new range of experimentation, and we can see what the meta would truly be like. I fully respect the system we use now, but I think it's pretty obvious what should be suspected.
I thought the suspect ladder reqs lets people vote on what they want suspected. To do it this way would have two ladders one normal and one without the decided suspects.
 
I fail to see what clear cut counters mienfoo has. With a simple and common set of u turn / knock off / drain punch / acrobatics, most things are covered, and over the things that aren't, namely spritzee, skrelp, and snubbull, all of them hate being knocked off and are left struggling to be effective thereafter. Knocking off an opposing Foo even helps it in this case. Also, once mienfoo is knocked off, even though you can't always assume this happens every match anyways, it's still not some defensive pussy. It can still take hits, especially with dp + regen keeping it as close to 100 percent as possible.
Any poison-type takes those, especially ones like Trubbish who's probably my favourite switch-in for foo cuz sticky hold. Foongus too. Pumpkaboo also dgaf. Archen once or twice maybe. Fletchling can also switch and set up on knock off or drain punch (without SR) on Standard bulky attacker. Vullaby lols at Mienfoo. I could keep going but I'm sure some try-hard will spam some calcs of Mienfoo taking a hit that they think will help their case but probably doesn't.

I find it funny that it's mentioned that mienfoo is extremely limited when it has one of the best offensive and support movepools in the meta. Saying that there's only two sets available to use is as equally absurd, seeing as LO, BP, and SD + 3 Attacks are equally viable.
LO, SD, and BP are "equally viable" with the standard bulky attacker? You can't mean that. LO can't take a hit at all and is a completely different type of role (not a bad one, just not a "bulky fighting-type" that checks stuff). BP is an all or nothing strategy that relies purely on the opponent not noticing shit, the opponent being faster (unless you have a really bulky recipient) and, some luck that the opponent doesn't use a move that screws with BP. SD + 3 Attacks, frankly, never seen it in all of my games. In any event, Mienfoo's main selling point is momentum, and those mons, particularly the latter two, are not nearly as good as getting that like the bulky attacker is.

And I don't know if it was me who you think said "mienfoo is limited" but Mienfoo is quite clearly predictable and has the same counters almost regardless of what set you use (obviously BP can set up on like Trubbish, but that's about it). And unlike a Pokemon such as Gligar, if it is using a different set, it is a) not going to be as good and b) a mistake will not instantly cost you the game.

I think we need to take a step back and remember the purpose of a suspect test in Little Cup in particular. Suspect tests are for the sake of evaluating a Pokemon in the metagame so we, the community, can make an intelligent decision about its placement. While I am not necessarily for or against Mienfoo getting banned, I agree with fatty in that it has enough positive qualities where a suspect test is reasonable. If we come to the conclusion that the metagame is perfect and that nothing deserves a suspect test unless it's explicitly broken, which many of you do, we might as well just close this threadand declare the tier finished. If instead we use suspect tests as they are supposed to, we can consistently attempt to improve the tier.

Also keep in mind that the process might change depending on the Pokemon in question. For example, if an incredibly subjective Pokemon like Mienfoo or Pawniard was suspected, I would recommend implementing a ladder without the suspects for discussion's sake.
Saying a suspect test is for "evaluating a Pokemon" is just plain naive. A suspect test's purpose is to find out if the community wants to ban a Pokemon or not. You can't really think that suspect tests make us all take a step back and evaluate a Pokemon, it's basically just a formal voting process at this point. We have been using this Pokemon since the fucking inception of gen 6, we aren't going to magically form new opinions because of the "process".

To change the suspect test to something like a suspect-less ladder is a policy I'm very uncomfortable with. It was used in Gen 4 and was stopped because it essentially encouraged people to vote on which metagame they were better at, wanted, and many other factors that AREN'T whether or not that Pokemon was broken. Banning things "because you just don't want them there" maybe as a personal philosophy is sort of OK within a process focused on banning things that are "broken"....maybe. However having a process that encourages that mentality turns the tier into a bit of a joke which I think clearly discourages players from playing more than something like Mienfoo does. Most importantly, banning things for fun discourages good players from taking the tier seriously.
 
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fatty

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Heysup, you seem to be a very literal man when it comes to definitions and what this whole suspect process means, which is why I'm surprised you specifically mentioned "clear counters" in your previous post, yet cite off pumpkaboo and fletchling who most certainly aren't counters. Vullaby also doesn't lol at mienfoo. Sure it's good for a switch in, but with possible stealth rock on the field and knock, Vullaby is going to be hard pressed to continually switch in, which just so happens to be mienfoo's game: continually switching in. Archen is even worse at this with considerable less bulk and defeatist.

And yes I do mean they are equally viable. I have personally ran all three sets and although they don't fulfill the same purpose, they are all very threatening. I don't know why you care about mienfoo taking hits when it's LO, and you even said yourself that it's not its purpose, so whatever. You're also making it out like BP is so hard to use and loses so much. You still get drain punch + knock off coverage, a boosting move, and the ability to pass that to whatever you choose. It's a pretty fucking scary set when used right.

Also, yes that is exactly what a suspect test is, you're supposed to question stuff. How can we be totally sure we have created the perfect metagame if we don't at least question it. This is also why we have a council, so we can actually utilize the people who are going to step back and take a look at the metagame and make responsible decisions. I agree though, I don't like the idea of a suspect - less ladder either for the reasons you mentioned.

I'd like to mention too that I don't even know if I want to ban mienfoo, but I definitely want to give it it's due process.
 
"Also, yes that is exactly what a suspect test is, you're supposed to question stuff. How can we be totally sure we have created the perfect metagame if we don't at least question it. This is also why we have a council, so we can actually utilize the people who are going to step back and take a look at the metagame and make responsible decisions. I agree though, I don't like the idea of a suspect - less ladder either for the reasons you mentioned."

I'm just gonna quote this with punctuation cause I'm on mobile (and i agree with most of the things you said ). The suspect process isn't used to just pick apart a metagame and take away viable mons willy nilly. We need to have some basis for doing so. If we are questioning the inclusion of mons in the interest of a healthy metagame, why ought we do Meinfoo, and not say, Pawniard, Chinchou, Abra, Timburr, Ferroseed, and more?
 
Heysup, you seem to be a very literal man when it comes to definitions and what this whole suspect process means, which is why I'm surprised you specifically mentioned "clear counters" in your previous post, yet cite off pumpkaboo and fletchling who most certainly aren't counters. Vullaby also doesn't lol at mienfoo. Sure it's good for a switch in, but with possible stealth rock on the field and knock, Vullaby is going to be hard pressed to continually switch in, which just so happens to be mienfoo's game: continually switching in. Archen is even worse at this with considerable less bulk and defeatist.
I am a law student of course I'm literal. Pumpkaboo can still take 2 knock offs and burn Mienfoo if it must, it's not ideal but it certainly counters it (obviously Mienfoo paired with a support of aroma / heal bell makes Pumpkaboo a shitty counter). I'm also used to using my fletchling but it can be EV'd to take any attack Mienfoo throws at it and KO back. If it switches into Knock Off or Drain Punch without SR it can actually SD. If Mienfoo is Knocked Off, then it can just KO off the bat. By "clear" I meant obvious and relevant counters - the ones you mentioned were not all that I would consider clear-cut so I mentioned more that at the very least suffice as switch-ins. Focusing on Pumpkaboo and Archen as not ideal counters and ignoring the pure counters like Spritzee, Snubble, Cottonee (dont even say poison jab), every poison type like Trubbish and Skrelp, is just a strawman tactic and does not strengthen your argument.

And yes I do mean they are equally viable. I have personally ran all three sets and although they don't fulfill the same purpose, they are all very threatening. I don't know why you care about mienfoo taking hits when it's LO, and you even said yourself that it's not its purpose, so whatever. You're also making it out like BP is so hard to use and loses so much. You still get drain punch + knock off coverage, a boosting move, and the ability to pass that to whatever you choose. It's a pretty fucking scary set when used right.
They are scary, they are good and better than viable. To suggest they are "equal" to the standard set is, in fact, crazy but irrelevant all of the same. It does not make Mienfoo harder to deal with - not even close to the same way Gligar did which was hard to ban in its own right. Switching into one rather than another is not a huge difference besides BP which is predictable and lacks the immense mid-game momentum value from U-turn, though it is admittedly scary if you get outplayed into a bad situation (I've been using BP foo -> Fish since SPL last year).

Also, yes that is exactly what a suspect test is, you're supposed to question stuff. How can we be totally sure we have created the perfect metagame if we don't at least question it. This is also why we have a council, so we can actually utilize the people who are going to step back and take a look at the metagame and make responsible decisions. I agree though, I don't like the idea of a suspect - less ladder either for the reasons you mentioned.

I'd like to mention too that I don't even know if I want to ban mienfoo, but I definitely want to give it it's due process.
That is a severe mistatement of degree. Forgive the analogy but that's the difference between calling someone for questioning and going straight to the verdict of trial. As awesome as council members are, it is still very much a crapshoot that carries biases - it is not meant to decide trivial matters. Trivial matters should start and end in this thread.

You're talking about a suspect test as if it's some sort of due process with substantial testing procedure for finding of fact or scientific trial and error data-collection process. It is not. It is just a vote based on experiences ALREADY taken place. No more. No less. It worked great for speedily removing obvious suspects and I'm not knocking the entire process - but it's meant to get things like Murkrow out of the metagame so that we can get to where we are now. As the process is, it would be purely illogical to call for suspecting Mienfoo without intention to ban it.
 

Berks

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You're talking about a suspect test as if it's some sort of due process with substantial testing procedure for finding of fact or scientific trial and error data-collection process. It is not. It is just a vote based on experiences ALREADY taken place. No more. No less. It worked great for speedily removing obvious suspects and I'm not knocking the entire process - but it's meant to get things like Murkrow out of the metagame so that we can get to where we are now. As the process is, it would be purely illogical to call for suspecting Mienfoo without intention to ban it.
I feel like people take suspect tests in very negative connotation. in saying "it would be purely illogical to call for suspecting Mienfoo without intention to ban it" you really sort of change what a suspect test is, or at least what it was with Missy and Fletch. Did y'all have the intention to ban Fletch? If yes, then that vote obviously wasn't "just a vote based on experiences ALREADY taken place." If you (I say you cause I'm new, ofc) didn't intend to ban, then you were looking at the influence of a powerful threat on a metagame which was already pretty balanced, and found it was manageable. There would be no harm in suspecting Foo; if we find it ban worthy, so be it, and if we don't, then no harm done and we learn some more about the meta. It's a win-win situation.
 

fatty

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"Also, yes that is exactly what a suspect test is, you're supposed to question stuff. How can we be totally sure we have created the perfect metagame if we don't at least question it. This is also why we have a council, so we can actually utilize the people who are going to step back and take a look at the metagame and make responsible decisions. I agree though, I don't like the idea of a suspect - less ladder either for the reasons you mentioned."

I'm just gonna quote this with punctuation cause I'm on mobile (and i agree with most of the things you said ). The suspect process isn't used to just pick apart a metagame and take away viable mons willy nilly. We need to have some basis for doing so. If we are questioning the inclusion of mons in the interest of a healthy metagame, why ought we do Meinfoo, and not say, Pawniard, Chinchou, Abra, Timburr, Ferroseed, and more?
Where did I mention that the suspect process was meant to take away mons willy nilly? Like wtf that is completely misinterpreted. I said the suspect test id meant to question. Not once have I said I want to ban mienfoo for fucks sake, like I said I still havent made a decision. I am stating my basis for possibly putting it up for suspect, is that not what this thread is for? I have stated some of my reasons, and I'm sorry but if my opinion is considered willy nilly then idek what we're doing here. We're not talking about Pawniard, Chinchou, and Ferro because no one has brought them up....? And they're not of the same dominance as Mienfoo...? Sorry I don't know what you're getting at.

I'm at work I'll reply to other stuff later.
 
I feel like people take suspect tests in very negative connotation. in saying "it would be purely illogical to call for suspecting Mienfoo without intention to ban it" you really sort of change what a suspect test is, or at least what it was with Missy and Fletch. Did y'all have the intention to ban Fletch? If yes, then that vote obviously wasn't "just a vote based on experiences ALREADY taken place." If you (I say you cause I'm new, ofc) didn't intend to ban, then you were looking at the influence of a powerful threat on a metagame which was already pretty balanced, and found it was manageable. There would be no harm in suspecting Foo; if we find it ban worthy, so be it, and if we don't, then no harm done and we learn some more about the meta. It's a win-win situation.
I can't tell if you're over or under thinking this, but just look to the bolded statement. And yes, we intended to ban those Pokemon because we suspected them. The decision to not ban Fletchling was the process allowing for an "oh shit" button and not banning it. I am not saying suspecting = banning, I am saying the reason to suspect something is to ban it not to "test" it because that makes no sense.

I feel like it's so plain in my eyes but can't you see that we already have decided if it's ban worthy or not? There is no future "if". There is nothing that happens during a suspect test that is more than a vote or a decision.

If you still think you think that a suspect test is more than just a vote you need to step back and really look at the substance of what goes on during this process.
 

Merritt

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Too add on, suspecting a mon is not so much a decision to look at it more seriously, but rather a very serious statement of "this is a major issue for the meta, and if we don't find a way to stop it, it needs to go" instead. If this was like OU, where a suspect test really is more of a question of "is this mon broken or not" then I could embrace your reasoning and support it, but here something being suspected means it will go to the council where they'll make a decision on it.

Honestly if you don't feel Mienfoo (or anything) is something that is excessively unhealthy or outright broken, the right forum for discussion is in this, the Metagame Discussion Thread, rather than going whole hog and saying to put it a step from banning.
 
Where did I mention that the suspect process was meant to take away mons willy nilly? Like wtf that is completely misinterpreted. I said the suspect test id meant to question. Not once have I said I want to ban mienfoo for fucks sake, like I said I still havent made a decision. I am stating my basis for possibly putting it up for suspect, is that not what this thread is for? I have stated some of my reasons, and I'm sorry but if my opinion is considered willy nilly then idek what we're doing here. We're not talking about Pawniard, Chinchou, and Ferro because no one has brought them up....? And they're not of the same dominance as Mienfoo...? Sorry I don't know what you're getting at.

I'm at work I'll reply to other stuff later.

As heysup stated, we approach suspects with the intent of banning. Picking certain mons with the possibility of removing them for a "healthy metagame" is silly when we 1) don't have any reasons to really ban (or suspect. what are you, a law student?) something over another, and 2) have no idea of telling whether the meta might be healthier as a result. We could be making suspects ad infinitum and still be unable to tell what's "healthier" and what isn't. Suspects ought to be reserved for the most exceptional and possibly gamebreaking mons, not simply one that's really good at what it can do.
 

Corporal Levi

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Maybe you guys will disagree, but I would like to bring up Bellsprout as something possibly worth suspecting and banning.
Although it requires some amount of support, once the support is given, Sprout becomes ridiculously fast and powerful, leaving genuine counters non-existent.
Don't forget that it's also quite versatile; many of the checks it has, such as Fletchling, struggle against the physical set (+2 Evio Sucker Punch OHKOs after rocks).
Oh, and before anybody brings up that Bellsprout is on a timer, so was Tangela, and it's not like Bellsprout lacks power, either, with Sludge Bomb/Weather Ball.
Kingmidas, Fender, and others of us have discussed Bellsprout a lot, and we agree that its combination of power, versatilty, and speed is too much for the tier.
Anyway, even though it's not used much anymore, it's not the first time suspects have been used less than they should, and Bellsprout is probably a case of this.
 
Maybe you guys will disagree, but I would like to bring up Bellsprout as something possibly worth suspecting and banning.
Although it requires some amount of support, once the support is given, Sprout becomes ridiculously fast and powerful, leaving genuine counters non-existent.
Don't forget that it's also quite versatile; many of the checks it has, such as Fletchling, struggle against the physical set (+2 Evio Sucker Punch OHKOs after rocks).
Oh, and before anybody brings up that Bellsprout is on a timer, so was Tangela, and it's not like Bellsprout lacks power, either, with Sludge Bomb/Weather Ball.
Kingmidas, Fender, and others of us have discussed Bellsprout a lot, and we agree that its combination of power, versatilty, and speed is too much for the tier.
Anyway, even though it's not used much anymore, it's not the first time suspects have been used less than they should, and Bellsprout is probably a case of this.

Man, that's actually a good post. I've been afraid to bring up Sprout but now that others support the idea, I might as well add my two cents.

Interestingly, Bellsprout has a lot of similar qualities to Tangela as a sweeper. It might not have the bulk, but it's a similarly performing sweeper.
Don't forget we have to factor in that even without offensive items, Bellsprout is still a fucking beast capable of shredding teams. Since it doesn't need such items, eviolite provides security versus priority users like LO Pawn.
Additionally, we ought to also consider that Bellsprout's necessary partner is one of the best wallbreakers in the metagame. Vulpix pisses all over walls in ways that make R. Kelly jealous.
Sun's up, and what can this do? It's an exceptional cleaner, sweeper, and overall win condition. It's got coverage, bulk, and a plethora of options that makes Fletchling jealous. I actually can't believe Sprout wasn't brought up.
 
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Ok but you guys are wrong about suspect testing and my process. My suspect process is based entirely on the notion that suspect tests should NOT be just the middle stage before a ban. The whole purpose of the system that allows for the LC players to choose the suspect, then have a discussion thread, then choose council members, and then vote is to keep suspect tests as I imagine they should be: an in depth examination of a Pokemon. That's why discussion is the only metric that allows a person to vote in Little Cup. Ladder requirements choose a suspect, discussing and analyzing gives you the ability to vote. Since the community and not the tier leaders choose the suspects, they can choose to discuss whatever they want.

Mienfoo, Pawniard, Diglett, Gothita, Berry Juice, Eviolite, Knock Off, Bellsprout, whatever. IT IS ALL SUSPECT WORTHY. By yelling about how suspect testing in this tier with this system is all about going in with a ban mindset, you invalidate all the work I did running this tier and the entire purpose of the suspect test's heavy emphasis on discussion. I do not want to read any more posts about what suspects are because you are all wrong. Go into this thinking that a suspect test is just a huge incredibly pointed discussion on strong Pokemon. In Little Cup, that's all it is.

Not the leader anymore, but take my word as gospel once more, for old time's sake. Worthless peons.
 

Celestavian

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The combination of Vulpix and Bellsprout seems potent on paper, but in practice, I've never actually had a problem with it. You mention that Bellsprout is on a timer, but downplay that by saying Tangela was too. Tangela only needed one 5-turn period of sun to demolish everything, while it's quite easy to stall out or force out Bellsprout. For Vulpix to be the wallbreaker you claim it to be, it needs LO, which means sun is only up for 5 turns at a time (technically only 4 if you switch immediately to Bellsprout, and of course less if Vulpix stays in.) It's so easy to KO LO Vulpix, what with Stealth Rock, its LO recoil, and its frailty. Once Vulpix is down, Bellsprout becomes basically worthless since 2 of its 4 moves are garbage outside of sun (talking about the special attacker of course.) There's also the problem of getting Bellsprout in; you admit that it does not have Tangela's bulk, which is a big problem if you're trying to maximize Sun turns for Bellsprout. Bellsprout does not want to eat Knock Off, momentum moves, or really anything besides weak Drain Punches from the likes of defensive Mienfoo. The physical set seems to me like a gimmick since Bellsprout entirely lacks a physical Poison STAB. Seven types resist Grass, five of which Poison can hit for at least neutral damage, so it seems to be like it would be important. It gets Power Whip, sure, but that makes Weather Ball illegal meaning Bellsprout would be hard walled by Steel-types, forcing it to settle for Seed Bomb to accommodate for that. That said, I have never seen physical Bellsprout so I don't know what it actually runs, so if this is wrong then feel free to tell me.

Basically, Bellsprout is not an OHKO machine, which it needs to be to compromise for its low bulk, reliance on a very squishy sun setter, and uselessness outside of sun. It's too easy to stall out, wear down, and honestly, I'm very surprised this is even being considered.
 
Ok but you guys are wrong about suspect testing and my process. My suspect process is based entirely on the notion that suspect tests should NOT be just the middle stage before a ban. The whole purpose of the system that allows for the LC players to choose the suspect, then have a discussion thread, then choose council members, and then vote is to keep suspect tests as I imagine they should be: an in depth examination of a Pokemon. That's why discussion is the only metric that allows a person to vote in Little Cup. Ladder requirements choose a suspect, discussing and analyzing gives you the ability to vote. Since the community and not the tier leaders choose the suspects, they can choose to discuss whatever they want.

Mienfoo, Pawniard, Diglett, Gothita, Berry Juice, Eviolite, Knock Off, Bellsprout, whatever. IT IS ALL SUSPECT WORTHY. By yelling about how suspect testing in this tier with this system is all about going in with a ban mindset, you invalidate all the work I did running this tier and the entire purpose of the suspect test's heavy emphasis on discussion. I do not want to read any more posts about what suspects are because you are all wrong. Go into this thinking that a suspect test is just a huge incredibly pointed discussion on strong Pokemon. In Little Cup, that's all it is.

Not the leader anymore, but take my word as gospel once more, for old time's sake. Worthless peons.
Amen Blara. Let's try and respect the systems we have had success with for the last however many years.
Maybe you guys will disagree, but I would like to bring up Bellsprout as something possibly worth suspecting and banning.
Although it requires some amount of support, once the support is given, Sprout becomes ridiculously fast and powerful, leaving genuine counters non-existent.
Don't forget that it's also quite versatile; many of the checks it has, such as Fletchling, struggle against the physical set (+2 Evio Sucker Punch OHKOs after rocks).
Oh, and before anybody brings up that Bellsprout is on a timer, so was Tangela, and it's not like Bellsprout lacks power, either, with Sludge Bomb/Weather Ball.
Kingmidas, Fender, and others of us have discussed Bellsprout a lot, and we agree that its combination of power, versatilty, and speed is too much for the tier.
Anyway, even though it's not used much anymore, it's not the first time suspects have been used less than they should, and Bellsprout is probably a case of this.
Totally on board here. I think a lot of us remember our first experience against a well made sun team. For me, it was getting wrecked by Lucy on the ladder. With its formidable special and physical sets, it is certainly worth looking at during this suspect. I'd like to bring specific attention to just how hard it can be to switch into. You can meet any variety of coverage moves as well as a sleep powder or growth setup. This alone gives sprout some serious power in this meta
 

fatty

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If you approach suspects like that then that's your problem, right now im simply just stating my thoughts. We've barely even started the suspect process and I've mentioned numerous times I don't even know if I want to ban it lol. If suspect tests were only meant to get the obviously broken stuff out of the tier, then guess what, there actually would be no need for suspect tests at all. Wouldn't quick bans be the norm?

Who are you guys to say what deserved to be suspected so certainly this early in the game. You can interpret it how you wish, but to me suspect tests haven't been about witch hunting, they've been about pooling the communities thoughts and making decisions from there, with some persuading along the way. The more active suspect ladder just helps to lubricate discussions and thoughts. Sorry to say, but with a metagame and player base like LC, you won't get the substantial thought about the tier and the pokemon within it year round like you would during a suspect test. When it's not suspect time, people don't care as much, teams are less than optimal, and more emphasis is put on unwarranted "innovation" and "fun" than the actual state of the metagame. I'm sure we would all like this to be ou, but it's not.
 
Maybe you guys will disagree, but I would like to bring up Bellsprout as something possibly worth suspecting and banning.
Although it requires some amount of support, once the support is given, Sprout becomes ridiculously fast and powerful, leaving genuine counters non-existent.
Don't forget that it's also quite versatile; many of the checks it has, such as Fletchling, struggle against the physical set (+2 Evio Sucker Punch OHKOs after rocks).
Oh, and before anybody brings up that Bellsprout is on a timer, so was Tangela, and it's not like Bellsprout lacks power, either, with Sludge Bomb/Weather Ball.
Kingmidas, Fender, and others of us have discussed Bellsprout a lot, and we agree that its combination of power, versatilty, and speed is too much for the tier.
Anyway, even though it's not used much anymore, it's not the first time suspects have been used less than they should, and Bellsprout is probably a case of this.
Except Bellsprout has an extremely limited physical movepool. It's only options are Power Whip, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Thief (why use this over knock off?), Bullet Seed, and Seed Bomb (both outclassed by power whip). Although it does get Growth, Bellsprout isn't really bulky enough to set up without taking huge damage. This set is also walled by Pawniard, Vullaby and Croagunk, who can both hit back pretty hard (although Croagunk does suffer from Dry Skin damage). It also lacks a poison STAB option, which is especially not helpful against Snubbull, who lowers Bellsprout's attack and thunder waves/thiefs/whatever. Bellsprout also worries greatly about flame body 'mons like Ponyta and Larvesta, since it now fears being burned and gets absolutely destroyed by their Flare Blitzes (or is stalled out by 75% recovering Morning Sun). It lacks a lot of coverage on the physical side and I don't see any reason for it to go physical. Even if you went mixed, with special attacks + sucker punch, Bellsprout has no room for Growth, thus not being able to take care of Fletchling reliably.

Bellsprout also entirely relies on Vulpix (or some crappy manual sun setter) to do it's job at all. Without sun it loses it's great speed and is stuck at 13/14 speed, leaving it outsped by tons of threats that can kill it, especially because it's so frail.

I don't see how Bellsprout could possibly be suspected if it's 1. completely reliant on another mon, 2. extremely frail, 3. nearly useless (and slow) outside of sun, and 4. is only able to achieve B+ in the viability rankings (which isn't low, but is definitely too low to find a possible suspect).
 
Ok but you guys are wrong about suspect testing and my process. My suspect process is based entirely on the notion that suspect tests should NOT be just the middle stage before a ban. The whole purpose of the system that allows for the LC players to choose the suspect, then have a discussion thread, then choose council members, and then vote is to keep suspect tests as I imagine they should be: an in depth examination of a Pokemon. That's why discussion is the only metric that allows a person to vote in Little Cup. Ladder requirements choose a suspect, discussing and analyzing gives you the ability to vote. Since the community and not the tier leaders choose the suspects, they can choose to discuss whatever they want.

Mienfoo, Pawniard, Diglett, Gothita, Berry Juice, Eviolite, Knock Off, Bellsprout, whatever. IT IS ALL SUSPECT WORTHY. By yelling about how suspect testing in this tier with this system is all about going in with a ban mindset, you invalidate all the work I did running this tier and the entire purpose of the suspect test's heavy emphasis on discussion. I do not want to read any more posts about what suspects are because you are all wrong. Go into this thinking that a suspect test is just a huge incredibly pointed discussion on strong Pokemon. In Little Cup, that's all it is.

Not the leader anymore, but take my word as gospel once more, for old time's sake. Worthless peons.
You missed the part where I said we've been doing those steps (ie. every step except voting) for a long ass time now. It's not like when you were still leader and we still had a bunch of crazy ass new shit to deal with. We have been dealing with all of this shit for a long time and there's nothing to be gained once the examination has been completed - and it has (where during your time as leader the metagame was rapidly changing). Is this really that complicated? This isn't just a philosophical or opinion thing. It is actually wrong to say we have not fulfilled every substantial aspect of the examination step in this metagame - especially for Mienfoo.

The only step left is to vote. I'm not saying it's a pro-ban mentality by the council - though the argument could easily (read: really easily) be made that we ban immensely more than we don't. I am saying that the reason to put it to a vote - by the community - is because it is desired that it be given the opportunity to be banned.

I'm not talking at Blarajan anymore but more so at everyone else. Look at the bolded shit. Now, imagine seeing a banlist with those things on them. I'm pretty sure if you rearrange the letters in all of their names it spells "look, our metagame is a fucking joke".


If you approach suspects like that then that's your problem, right now im simply just stating my thoughts. We've barely even started the suspect process and I've mentioned numerous times I don't even know if I want to ban it lol. If suspect tests were only meant to get the obviously broken stuff out of the tier, then guess what, there actually would be no need for suspect tests at all. Wouldn't quick bans be the norm?
It's more of a continuation of the suspect process. Your subjective opinion on Mienfoo is irrelevant to this argument in the sense that it's the actual putting Mienfoo to be up for ban that is the problem, not the opinions of the voters (merely the potential outcomes). Quick ban is a norm for Scyther, Dragon Rage, etc. Outside of that, Blarajan thought we needed more of a process that forced us to actually use the mons and analyze it. Do you see where I'm getting with this yet? We have, as a community, actually used and analyzed Mienfoo immensely (look at the usage stats ffs).

Who are you guys to say what deserved to be suspected so certainly this early in the game. You can interpret it how you wish, but to me suspect tests haven't been about witch hunting, they've been about pooling the communities thoughts and making decisions from there, with some persuading along the way. The more active suspect ladder just helps to lubricate discussions and thoughts. Sorry to say, but with a metagame and player base like LC, you won't get the substantial thought about the tier and the pokemon within it year round like you would during a suspect test. When it's not suspect time, people don't care as much, teams are less than optimal, and more emphasis is put on unwarranted "innovation" and "fun" than the actual state of the metagame. I'm sure we would all like this to be ou, but it's not.
This early? We have been playing this metagame for...around 6 months (give or take a few changes from oras)? It seems misguided (hopelessly, it seems) that you think the "pooling of the communities thoughts", "persuasion", and experience on the ladder (and tournaments) have not happened yet for this metagame and that somehow it magically will in this mindless ladder grind of a requirement process. That, to me at least, is an insane perspective. I'm not going to do the math, but the number of quality LC games we will have in this suspect test will not even breach a fraction of a percent of the quality LC games we have had in the metagame already.

EDIT: I still can't believe people are talking about banning bellsprout. I feel like this is that hell I would live in if I was killed in American Horror story (I think it was Coven where they get their personal hells or smthng) where I can't stop people from wanting to ban Bellsprout and Mienfoo despite my best efforts. Make it stop.......
 
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Except Bellsprout has an extremely limited physical movepool. It's only options are Power Whip, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Thief (why use this over knock off?), Bullet Seed, and Seed Bomb (both outclassed by power whip). Although it does get Growth, Bellsprout isn't really bulky enough to set up without taking huge damage. This set is also walled by Pawniard, Vullaby and Croagunk, who can both hit back pretty hard (although Croagunk does suffer from Dry Skin damage). It also lacks a poison STAB option, which is especially not helpful against Snubbull, who lowers Bellsprout's attack and thunder waves/thiefs/whatever. Bellsprout also worries greatly about flame body 'mons like Ponyta and Larvesta, since it now fears being burned and gets absolutely destroyed by their Flare Blitzes (or is stalled out by 75% recovering Morning Sun). It lacks a lot of coverage on the physical side and I don't see any reason for it to go physical. Even if you went mixed, with special attacks + sucker punch, Bellsprout has no room for Growth, thus not being able to take care of Fletchling reliably.

Bellsprout also entirely relies on Vulpix (or some crappy manual sun setter) to do it's job at all. Without sun it loses it's great speed and is stuck at 13/14 speed, leaving it outsped by tons of threats that can kill it, especially because it's so frail.

I don't see how Bellsprout could possibly be suspected if it's 1. completely reliant on another mon, 2. extremely frail, 3. nearly useless (and slow) outside of sun, and 4. is only able to achieve B+ in the viability rankings (which isn't low, but is definitely too low to find a possible suspect).
Bellsprout's set may be counterable at any given time, but it does not change that these mons are only covering one aspect of Bellsprout.
Remember, this was a similar issue we had faced with Meditite. It could have Honedge, Slowpoke, ect checking it, but it was impractical to run multiple Pokemon for that.
Of course, it might be true that Bellsprout can't also run more than four moves, but it's obscene that its checks and counters are radically different based on single, subtle move changes.
Sun's an incredibly powerful archetype. At the very least, we ought to look into trying to nerf it while still retaining viability (for the sake of diversity, if anything).
 
The only step left is to vote. I'm not saying it's a pro-ban mentality by the council - though the argument could easily (read: really easily) be made that we ban immensely more than we don't. I am saying that the reason to put it to a vote - by the community - is because it is desired that it be given the opportunity to be banned.
tbf our inclination to ban has more to do with the fact that we were actually suspecting shit that needed to leave. we set a (admittedly vague) standard of being "too broken for this shit".

I'm not talking at Blarajan anymore but more so at everyone else. Look at the bolded shit. Now, imagine seeing a banlist with those things on them. I'm pretty sure if you rearrange the letters in all of their names it spells "look, our metagame is a fucking joke".
nah there's no Bs in that sentence.
 

The Avalanches

pokemon tcg
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At this time, I am on the fence about whether anything is suspect worthy. I do not think that any Pokemon, item, ability, or move has reached a point where it should be considered for a ban, and I certainly do not think we should be walking away from this suspect test with one less Pokemon in the tier. However, I do believe a discussion of this magnitude will be able to look at some of the more threatening aspects of our metagame from every angle. Whether you think the notion of suspect testing these is downright ridiculous or not, what on earth is the harm in gaining a little perspective?

I'm reminded of last suspect test, where Fletchling was considered for a ban, and at the time, a lot of people believed it to be broken. I leaned towards keeping it, because I did not believe it to be broken, nor did I believe that it should have really been suspected in the first place. Over the few weeks of discussion that followed, Fletchling was examined intensely under an electron microscope by us. We posted replays of it, brought up usage statistics, and cited what movepools were most common. At the end of it all, the tier leaders chose the twelve people they believed to have the best knowledge of the Misdreavus-Fletchling era to vote on the two. Misdreavus was banned, and Fletchling stayed in the tier, and this decision was widely well-recieved, and has remained so.

So just cool your jets, guys. There is no reason we can't follow a similar path. Even if you're against Mienfoo and Bellsprout being suspected, you have the chance to change public opinion and convince people why they shouldn't be banned. I believe no matter what goes on in the suspect test, the council will come to the right decision, and we will have the best metagame possible from this still.
 
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