np: UU Stage 2.1 - You Are Invited

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I see and no im sry but i did not read your last paragraph. I see what your saying but i cannot conform to the broken club because ive been using serp for the last week and ive swept more with m aero. Heracross is too common for serp to due a lot of dammage. If serp goes then i believe it will be the first to rise from nu all the way to ou because of an ability. I think saybleye* was close. It doesnt seem right for a poke to rise so much with one minor change to the pokemon itself. Out of curiousity does moldbreaker negate contrary?

Edit: This vote will come down to how many people use suicune vs the people that hate suicune meta... js
 

Wanka

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I see and no im sry but i did not read your last paragraph. I see what your saying but i cannot conform to the broken club because ive been using serp for the last week and ive swept more with m aero. Heracross is too common for serp to due a lot of dammage. If serp goes then i believe it will be the first to rise from nu all the way to ou because of an ability. I think saybleye* was close. It doesnt seem right for a poke to rise so much with one minor change to the pokemon itself. Out of curiousity does moldbreaker negate contrary?

Edit: This vote will come down to how many people use suicune vs the people that hate suicune meta... js

Since when is heracross a 100% surefire stop to serperior wtf?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 199-235 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 250-294 (83 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I've been trying to keep my saltiness down when posting, but the recent OU and UU suspect tests have been extremely annoying to watch the amount of garbage being thrown around because people are getting badge-happy; these awful posts drown out all of the decent arguments for suspecting a 'mon to the point where I reflexively stop replying to them. What's the point in replying when it's gonna be a mob vote anyways?
Lmao? By the amount of "garbage" being thrown around, I assume you mean the arguments from the Pro-Ban side. We're legitimately disproving a large amount of arguments that anti-ban has been putting out, and as for us being "badge happy", that's just fucking stupid and narcissistic to say. We're posting here because we don't want a broken pokemon staying in our tier, not because we want a virtual badge next to our name so that people will take us more seriously. Maybe you should just respect other people's right to post here, and not call everyone else greedy for a little bit of recognition. The implication that nobody on the pro-ban side is posting to be genuine and that you are is pathetic and narcissistic as fuck. We're all posting for the better of the tier in our own eyes, so show some respect to other users. The point in replying to our posts is t maybe bring up a coherent point and possibly change people's minds, rather than bash on them for wanting a pokemon to get banned.
 
You literally just proved my point for me. Yes, thank for agreeing that serperiors checks get worn down very easily making them very soft checks. Not only does serp wear these mons down with storm itself, but ONCE AGAIN they are all weak to fucking rocks making them extremely easy to wear down. You make it seem like rotom heat is a safe switchin more than once when its not. And what you said about the godly ability to have ur mons at 100% goes the same way for serps checks. They are not always going to be healthy as well, you just contradicted yourself.
It's also easy to get rid of rocks, it goes both ways. Rocks aren't going to be on the field 100% of the time
 
This thread has devolved into garbage since all of the seasoned people have made their points and don't feel like playing the broken record game. There are still a few people on both sides making good, solid arguments, but I wouldn't be the least bit sad or surprised if this thread were locked.
 

AM

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This thread has devolved into garbage since all of the seasoned people have made their points and don't feel like playing the broken record game. There are still a few people on both sides making good, solid arguments, but I wouldn't be the least bit sad or surprised if this thread were locked.
Suspect ladder is up for two weeks and it'll more than likely proceed as such by virtue of how suspect tests usually go. Not exactly sure why you would be "sad or surprised" if this was locked when it's the community that wants to speak out as a whole and not just one persons opinion. You guys wanted a suspect test on a public format so there you go, idk what the complaint is over subjective uninformed opinions, if you don't like reading them just unwatch the thread or just ignore them. Your goal as the community who are informed should explain to those why or why not a ban is justified. If you seriously think this is bad I invite you to some of our OU suspect tests and read the logic provided there cause boy you'll be surprised if you think this thread has devolved into garbage (hint this isn't even that bad). Trust me this is candy land compared to some other suspect tests and I would think some of you guys would be more appreciative than just spewing out comments such as this. if you got a legitimate say in the matter by all means express it how it correlates to the suspect in question. If nothing to say on the thread just go get reqs and votes where in the end is what counts.
 
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Suspect ladder is up for two weeks and it'll more than likely proceed as such by virtue of how suspect tests usually go. Not exactly sure why you would be "sad or surprised" if this was locked when it's the community that wants to speak out as a whole and not just one persons opinion. You guys wanted a suspect test on a public format so there you go, idk what the complaint is over subjective uninformed opinions, if you don't like reading them just unwatch the thread or just ignore them. Your goal as the community who are informed should explain to those why or why not a ban is justified. If you seriously think this is bad I invite you to some of our OU suspect tests and read the logic provided there cause boy you'll be surprised if you think this thread has devolved into garbage (hint this isn't even that bad). Trust me this is candy land compared to some other suspect tests and I would think some of you guys would be more appreciative than just spewing out comments such as this. if you got a legitimate say in the matter by all means express it how it correlates to the suspect in question. If nothing to say on the thread just go get reqs and votes where in the end is what counts.
You're 100% correct. I do get tired of the bottom of the barrel, repetitious arguments that happen at the end of a suspect test, but I'd still rather everyone have a say than some quasi-esoteric group.

Sorry.
 

Rumor

when bae sees your sketchers light up
can't we just talk about how that Crobat is a direct counter to Serperior instead of just arguing @_@ cmon now we're all frens lets just bring serp back
 
can't we just talk about how that Crobat is a direct counter to Serperior instead of just arguing @_@ cmon now we're all frens lets just bring serp back
I'm not sure if you're a troll or something but unless that's itemless Crobat with Rest/Sleep Talk/Brave Bird/Acrobatics (for a higher chance of sleep talking an attacking move), or some weird pif Haze bat, Crobat is nothing close to a counter, as it can get Glared then the next time it switches in on Serperior while rocks are up, it dies to Leaf Storm+HP Ice.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 283-335 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

P.S Please elaborate on the point you're trying to make, making statements without any solid arguments will make people want to punch you over the internet.
 
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I think there's some discrepancies going on here I'd like to clean up.
First off, the application of Glare. Right, so people are saying things like Crobat and what have you aren't counters because Serperior can Glare them on the switch; but on that case you have to choose if Serperior cripples with Glare or gets enough power to KO, in both instances meaning you have to switch out. To give an example, let's say Serperior gets a free switch into Blastoise. Doesn't really matter what it is here since Serperior gets to threaten a ton of 'mon when it switches in. Now say that Blastoise switches out. You know the Crobat's coming, it's clearer than day. But now you have that oh-so-annoying choice -- do you go for Leaf Storm or Glare? If you go for Glare, then Crobat's crippled, but because you're not at +2 you don't have the power to reliably kill it unless a ton of it's HP has been worn down by this point in the match, and you can't rely on the 50% paralysis chance to kick in when you decide to Leaf Storm for that power. If you go for Leaf Storm over Glare, you have the power to KO it... but Crobat outspeeds you, so you lose anyway.
However, the second discrepancy is the assumption of many people on the anti-ban side. What I've seen thrown around here recently is the assumption of "people for pro-ban are assuming Serperior has all these moves instead of four", when that's simply not true. It comes back to the Greninja argument a month or so back in OU - sure, it's not carrying all these moves, but you don't know which of those moves it's carrying. To give an example, perhaps you bring in SD Cobalion. Just an example, don't take this completely literally. Alright, cool, you don't give a shit about Leaf Storm, Dragon Pulse, Taunt etc. You're totally fine, even if it goes for a Glare or whatever you have a 2HKO. But when you switched in it got to +2, and then you get smacked in the face by this.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 238-282 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Combined with the previous Leaf Storm which at +0 does 30% minimum, you're suddenly down for the count because you didn't know Serperior was carrying HP Fire. And this is the problem - of course Serperior isn't carrying like 10 moves, but all of those moves are viable and you don't know which of those Serperior is carrying aside from of course the mandatory Leaf Storm.
Finally, a lot of these arguments annoyingly seem to assume that it's Serperior vs the world. Serperior has 5 other teammates guys. Of course it has counters, of course there are things that will beat it 1-1, but that's not the point. You could easily build your team to beat these counters, and hell, Serperior could help in that endeavor -- going back to the Glare Crobat example, Serperior can then switch out into... I dunno, Ampharos or whatever else takes on Crobat and you're good. What matters isn't that Serperior has counters, but which of those can be dealt with by other team members and how easily they're dealt with, especially when you have Glare - and to a lesser extent Taunt - to take into account.
 

Punchshroom

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I think there's some discrepancies going on here I'd like to clean up.
First off, the application of Glare. Right, so people are saying things like Crobat and what have you aren't counters because Serperior can Glare them on the switch; but on that case you have to choose if Serperior cripples with Glare or gets enough power to KO, in both instances meaning you have to switch out. To give an example, let's say Serperior gets a free switch into Blastoise. Doesn't really matter what it is here since Serperior gets to threaten a ton of 'mon when it switches in. Now say that Blastoise switches out. You know the Crobat's coming, it's clearer than day. But now you have that oh-so-annoying choice -- do you go for Leaf Storm or Glare? If you go for Glare, then Crobat's crippled, but because you're not at +2 you don't have the power to reliably kill it unless a ton of it's HP has been worn down by this point in the match, and you can't rely on the 50% paralysis chance to kick in when you decide to Leaf Storm for that power. If you go for Leaf Storm over Glare, you have the power to KO it... but Crobat outspeeds you, so you lose anyway.
I'd like to touch upon this point and further elaborate it to the masses. If Crobat gets paralyzed, it flat out loses the ability to check Serperior. Serp is forced out for now, but if it manages to get back in on Blastoise, it can safely use Leaf Storm knowing that if Crobat switches into it, it can just follow up with the +2 Hidden Power Ice and KO from there. Sure, Serp has to play a prediction game first against Blastoise by choosing between Leaf Storm (should Blastoise stay in) or Glare to nail the Crobat switch. This isn't really helped by the fact that most bulky Waters and Grounds right now, most notably Suicune, lack the means to sufficiently threaten Serp enough to really punish it for going for Glare (Serp can shrug off unSTAB Ice Beams for the most part). There are a couple of outcomes regarding Serp's initial move in the Blastoise + Crobat scenario:

1) Serp Leaf Storms, Blastoise stays in = Blastoise is KOed
2) Serp Glares, Blastoise stay in = Blastoise gets to land a free attack on Serp, provided paralysis doesn't stop you
3) Serp Leaf Storms, Crobat switches in = Serp is forced out
4) Serp Glares, Crobat switches in = both Blastoise and Crobat are now at risk

The only true risk to Serperior is that it may get crippled by whatever tech move you carry on your "Serperior prey". Meanwhile, the risk to the Blastoise + Crobat player is that he loses both of his mons, including his supposed Serp check. This scenario can happen for pretty much every Serperior victim and its check bar Rotom-Heat, but that can actually simplify things for Serperior as it can just click Leaf Storm without worrying about Glare predictions: SpD Rotom-H's Pain Split can be played around by limiting its health gain while Scarf Rotom-H still takes a good chunk from Leaf Storm anyway.

P.S. Kurona, I know you're not against the Serp ban, I'm just pointing this out for people so don't take this the wrong way :3
 
These last two posts were very intelegent and i commend the posters but i want to make some points. First off if, in the serp blast senerio, if the serp predicts the switch it will go for glare but if your opponent predicts the glare and does not get paralyzed, then ice beam kills. No more serp shenanigans. If the serp goes for the safe leaf storm, then crobat can come in and u turn on the switch giving your opponent the momentum. I havnt had any trouble with serperior but i do run heracross, goodra, and m aero on one team so that may have something to do with it. I just came up with an offensive core with serp that seems unbeatable on paper and it will be found out soon so Im leaning a little more on the ban serp side.

What does serp do?
It restricts team building
It forces switches
Its a early game threat
Its a late game threat
It has a really efficient way to set up
Has a descent move pool

Now I can think of three other pokemon in uu meta that have all of these qualities barring one maybe.
Heracross
Maero
Crocune

With Heracross around, all my walls want to double switch predicting the hera to come in. I hesitate making teams with empoleon, porygon 2, and anything slower than 285.

With Maero's Aqua tail and Support sets, it is really hard to find one pokemon that counters it. Maggron and swampert do a nice job but they get worn down

Crocune forces teams to have strong anti water pressure, a water absorber, or and something with roar that doesnt mind getting burned.

Weve got broken pokemon all around uu and we have to or the tier would be kinda boring. Im on the fence now so just read and consider.
 

YABO

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I was thinking more like sapp sipper zebstrika
Raising an otherwise terrible, actually still terrible, pokemon into "viability" (I use the term loosely) is not a good example of a "counter" (again used loosely). The only thing about Zebstrika that is not complete garbage is its speed stat which, although good, is not enough to make it a relevant component of any non-ban argument.
 

YABO

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who runs HP Ice serp @_@
HP Ice Serperior is quite good, allowing you to dispatch Crobat much easier who is likely the opposing team's best answer to Serperior. In addition, it helps punch past things such as Amoonguss with prior damage. Another interesting tidbit is that it does not lower your Speed IV by 1 like HP Rock and Fire do, helping you in Serperior vs Serperior matchups. It comes at the cost of not running HP Fire, but most things hit by fire are easily handled via team support. Notable examples would be Maggron and Forretress.
 

LeoLancaster

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HP Ice Serperior is quite good, allowing you to dispatch Crobat much easier who is likely the opposing team's best answer to Serperior. In addition, it helps punch past things such as Amoonguss with prior damage. Another interesting tidbit is that it does not lower your Speed IV by 1 like HP Rock and Fire do, helping you in Serperior vs Serperior matchups. It comes at the cost of not running HP Fire, but most things hit by fire are easily handled via team support. Notable examples would be Maggron and Forretress.
Mega Aggron loses to just LS, which actually hits harder because of filter.
 
Is there any viability to running Coba Berry on Serp? I'm thinking specifically for Crobat and M-Aero...I did a quick calc and it looks like the standard BB/Aerial Ace do ~55/57% max respectively when Serp is holding Coba. This would allow a Serp user to avoid the guessing game altogether, hitting the switch in with Leaf Storm, Glare while Coba takes the hit, then finish it off with the appropriate move. Less power without the LO obviously, but at +2/4, its often not needed to clean up.
 
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