Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[xJownage]

Eevee, what I am saying is that it was stated multiple times that "diggersby ban makes meta fall apart" was a terrible slippery slope argument, and using the difference of such a shitty argument to say we have justifiable reason to ban Keldeo and not Diggersby is an argument completely based off of that slippery slope. What I am saying is its a pointless argument anyways.

The point I am trying to make is there aren't metagame problems atm, but a Keldeo ban could eventually turn the metagame upside down, and with you supposed logic saying that the slippery slope argument is the reason to ban this and not diggersby, this is a viable argument in that right since its the same thing. You are making it sound like slippery slope is a viable argument, but it was said that it isn't, so I am trying to point out that a Keldeo ban would have even worse side-effects than a diggersby ban.

Keldeo is nowhere near unbeatable, and the metagame is very balanced atm, so why in the world should we change it when we can beat this thing?

 

[DarkeKnight]

Just want to reiterate what I said on the Viability Rankings Thread:

I've been using this for sometime now. The Specs set is truly a monster. The only time I've ever not used Water Spout is when I'm against a Chansey. It is a nuke. However, the specs set is easily outsped. Diggersby can take it out with Fakespeed. Talonflame has Dragon Ascent. Lati@s outspeed it. M-Pidgeot outspeeds. Scarf Lando-T which seems to be on the rise now KOs it. Aerodactyl KOs it. Basically any flying type that outspeeds it, any fakespeed user and most scarf users can take out Keldeo easily. Plus, even if they don't, your HP is going to be low, so you'll be forced to use another move such as Origin Pulse. I ended up swapping the Specs for a Scarf now though, and it seems to be working well.

A huge number of things easily beat Keldeo. Really, a lot of things could deal as much damage as Keldeo if you slap a Specs on it and give it Water Spout/Eruption. The main thing Keldeo has going for it is Secret Sword which can stop Chansey. Plus Keldeo needs a lot of support. It's going to be switching in and out a lot. Once its HP gets below 75%, Water Spout isn't very useful. With SR on the field, it's going to lose a bit each time it comes in. I personally haven't had any problems with Keldeo.

 

[DinaIsha]

Well, this seems a bit dull. How do you think the unreleased Pokémon will fare in STABmons once they're released?

Hoopa-Unbound has NP, CM, Future Sight, Psystrike, Night Daze etc.,

Volcanion (lel Keldeo check) gets Sacred Fire, WillOWisp, Origin Pulse, Water Spout etc., Plus, there's a lack of Water Types in STABmons except Keldeo, so Volcanion gets incredible coverage just with its two STABs.

 

[ellipse]

For volcanion, the most exciting thing will be the release of steam eruption. Scald + Hydro = best move in the metagame?

 

[DarkeKnight]

I'm just waiting for it to release so that I can slap a scarf on to it and spam Water Spout AND Eruption.

 

[Mr155551]

I think you guys will love if stabmons+ does in fact get implemented cuz you would get all of that plus ubers and jumping types

 

[DinaIsha]

I think you guys will love if stabmons+ does in fact get implemented cuz you would get all of that plus ubers and jumping types

STABmons+ will not be a permanent ladder (And will not be added to the current STABmons ladder). It's like those Seasonal Ladders. I'm not sure if it's eligible for OMotM though.

 

[skies]

I feel like Steam Eruption won't really be a huge plus for the defensive side of the metagame, but more so for the offensive side. Due to Steam Eruption's tiny drop in accuracy and PP, Scald would still be more preferable on walls because Steam Eruption is just too hard to stall with. Offensively, however, it will be the go-to after Origin Pulse which would only be used because of its higher PP, which doesn't really matter on the offensive side anyways. The ability to still have an insanely powerful move that pressures anything that switches in with a burn, thus weakening it for a later time, will make it an extremely good move. Water Absorb Quagsire anyone?

 

[EV]

More like Storm Drain Gastrodon which has a usable Special to take advantage of any boosts plus it can tank other special hits much better than Quagsire. Depending on what coverage Volcanion gets, Gastrodon will make a nice counter to it I'm thinking.

 

[DinaIsha]

Chansey, one of its better answers will hate Sacred Fire. And it has good bulk to run a ChestoRest set if it comes down to it.

 

[Lcass4919]

power herb solarbeam imo-seriously though, steam eruption will really affect some pokes, stuff like AV slowbro/slowking would like the extra power it brings on more offensive teams, as it already has a powerful move in psystrike, and can easily run scald on the same set, since most run either future sight, or ice beam/fire blast togeather, being somewhat redundant(except for the obvious "one hits scizor/ferro, and one hits dragons SE).

as for volc, i see bulky sacred fire, steam eruption,stone edge and hp ice/grass being very irritating to take out and generally a good status spreader with great offensive presence. you could run sludge bomb for lulz, but it actually doesn't do much other then hit fairies super effectively, and potentially poison fire types(but water rapes all fire types in general barring itself so...) which most fairies have the special bulk to shrug it off regardless. maybe replacing stone edge for it could be doable.

 

[EV]

Tomorrow is Keldeo's due date on the suspect vote. Does anyone have any last words in favor or against a ban? Maybe some tl;dr bullet point summaries?

Side note, has anyone tried Soak on it? Soak turns the target into Water, which means Secret Sword is no longer resisted, plus it removes the target's STAB (if not Water already.) It's a bit gimmicky, but it does mean Keldeo can spam at least one of its STABs without fear of immunity or resistances. I'm thinking Sub/Calm Mind/Soak/Secret Sword. The downside is it has to rely on a basepower 85 attack and it has to land Soak to abuse the strategy. Water Absorb still walls it and SE moves like Thunderbolt, Oblivion Wing, Psystrike, etc will still break subs even without STAB.

 

[Adonzo]

Eh, soak is only really worth it if you can hit it supereffectively with STAB (ie. Ludicolo / Rotom-W, maybe some Water / Ice types with Freeze-Dry), and even then it's the equivalent of a -2 defense that only applies to your STAB, and they can still switch out.

EDIT: I guess it also weakens their STAB, but still, wouldn't bother without a SE STAB

 

[EV]

Keldeo Suspect Results:

After consideration by our Council, we have arrived at a vote of 3-2, Ban.

This one was close but the 3 in favor of the ban agree that Keldeo requires little prediction to abuse it and can wear down its own counters thanks to the sheer power of its attacks or from Scald burns. What reliable counters it has that can still sponge full-powered Water Spouts or ignore burns expose that team to more risk in order to use them (Amoonguss/Slowbros/Jellicent), with the exception of Mega Latias, which is otherwise a great Pokemon on most teams. However, not every team can or should have to run it! Other innovative sets have also proved that Keldeo is dangerous, like Sub+Calm Mind.

So while this pony may not be overflowing with tricks, its bread-and-butter sets are just too good for the metagame to handle most the time.

Some of you will undoubtedly disagree, but please no pointless posts ("lmao It's not broken", etc.) The metagame will rest for at least 3 weeks before another suspect is considered.

 

[skies]

Here's a fun little core for y'all:

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cotton Guard
- Recover
- Baton Pass
- Giga Drain

Gardevoir @ Power Herb
Ability: Trace
EVs: 152 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Substitute

Okay, so, I've been experimenting with these buggers for fun on a gimmicky team lately and so far this combination has been an auto-win against Pokemon that make the mistake of staying in on Celebi. Cotton Guard, then passing to Gardevoir can end games really easy later on in the match. I know how much people love Baton Pass, so here's a great way to abuse it! Stored Power is 200 Base Power, STAB, and has +2 SpA! That's insane! Also, Trace is incredibly fun and I have been having a ton of fun with it! For example, in a battle versus Eevee General, I was able to Trace his Hydreigon's Leviate and then skillfully dodge his Earth Power :D. Doesn't always work, and is certainly able to be beat, but it's a lot of fun n_n!

 

[TTer]

I've been wondering, is the Stabmons frontier still a thing? If so, what does the "retired" in the OP mean?
Anyways, I won vs DinaIsha in a gg. (Sorry for posting this two days later).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-214279137

 

[EV]

No it's over. I'll add your battle anyway. We might start v 2.0 with the new council if they're up for it.
Ellipse insanelegend Lcass4919 Doctor Kibble-bibble: DMD

 

[DinaIsha]

No it's over. I'll add your battle anyway. We might start v 2.0 with the new council if they're up for it.
Ellipse insanelegend Lcass4919 Doctor Kibble-bibble: DMD

And.. Would it follow the same rule as the old one? As in, would someone who beats all the Frontiers be added to the council?

Because, I think I can beat you all. Not to sound cocky, but if there's a challenge in STABmons, I'm up for it.

 

[Throbulator36]

brb, counterteaming

you shouldn't counterteam

 

[DinaIsha]

you shouldn't counterteam

If you know me, you know I hardly teambuild. My team is ancient AF. I think it adds to the challenge.

Instead of analyzing the opponent to "counter team", I run the same damn team and try to win with predictions.

 

[Pagoose]

Hide

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Toxic

So I was thinking about cores for stall, trying to build a mega sableye stall team with the premise of preventing all hazards, and came up with this. The greatest asset of mega sableye stall is that it prevents hazards. However, some pokemon threaten out sableye allowing them to set rocks, namely sdef heatran and clefable, among others. This is where gliscor comes in, as it is able to switch in on those pokemon and defog away hazards sableye can't block, similar to tentacruel in ou, which has become popular as a sableye partner on stall teams. It also provides a nice anti-diggersby core to start off the building of stall/balance teams, so you don't have to use passive pokemon like skarmory. I have built one cool balance team around this core that still needs testing, but it looks promising. What other pokemon have people found work well with mega sableye?

 

[DinaIsha]

The utility of Normal Sableye as an annoyance to Offense is too much to give up on. The above mentioned core is destroyed by many Setup sweepers and Digger.

If you'd used Sableye successfully in your team, there's no reason you'd switch to its Mega. Prankster is too damn good.

 

[Pagoose]

The utility of Normal Sableye as an annoyance to Offense is too much to give up on. The above mentioned core is destroyed by many Setup sweepers and Digger.

If you'd used Sableye successfully in your team, there's no reason you'd switch to its Mega. Prankster is too damn good.

You don't always have to mega immediately you know. The sableye set can be parting shot/topsy turvy if you want, it was just an example. The core does beat diggs pretty well actually. Anyway, sableye and mega sableye fufill different rolls. Sableye tries to check setup and annoy with parting shot, while mega sableye tries to prevent hazards, although nothing is stopping you from just not megaing until you want to. What this core does is to prevent hazards from staying up. One of the main ways stall is beaten is by using hazards and double switching to weaken counters. Even if every one of their pokemon are hard countered by one of yours, you can still be worn down and lose because of hazards. What mega sableye (+partner) being on your team means is that if you counter all of their pokemon, they have no way of breaking your team, practically giving you the win from team preview. Mega sableye isn't just used because it's a bulkier sableye, it has it's own very valuable niche for stall teams.

 

[DinaIsha]

You don't always have to mega immediately you know. The sableye set can be parting shot/topsy turvy if you want, it was just an example. The core does beat diggs pretty well actually. Anyway, sableye and mega sableye fufill different rolls. Sableye tries to check setup and annoy with parting shot, while mega sableye tries to prevent hazards, although nothing is stopping you from just not megaing until you want to. What this core does is to prevent hazards from staying up. One of the main ways stall is beaten is by using hazards and double switching to weaken counters. Even if every one of their pokemon are hard countered by one of yours, you can still be worn down and lose because of hazards. What mega sableye (+partner) being on your team means is that if you counter all of their pokemon, they have no way of breaking your team, practically giving you the win from team preview. Mega sableye isn't just used because it's a bulkier sableye, it has it's own very valuable niche for stall teams.

Most Diggersby run Ice Punch now thanks to the omnipresent LandoT. So that's not doing you a favour. Precipice Blades 2HKOes non-Mega Sableye.

I agree that you can play mind games with Mega Sableye. But once you Mega Evolve, you're dead weight. Anything ranging from SubDD/SubRoost Kyurem, SS Cloyster, SG Scizor, not to mention the good heap of Special Attackers overwhelm you.

Also moves like Partning Shot become next to useless without Prankster.

 

[EV]

Most Diggersby run Ice Punch now thanks to the omnipresent LandoT. So that's not doing you a favour. Precipice Blades 2HKOes non-Mega Sableye.

I agree that you can play mind games with Mega Sableye. But once you Mega Evolve, you're dead weight. Anything ranging from SubDD/SubRoost Kyurem, SS Cloyster, SG Scizor, not to mention the good heap of Special Attackers overwhelm you.

Also moves like Partning Shot become next to useless without Prankster.

Really? Because I've switched to Mega Sableye and not had these problems. Are you forgetting it has Will-O-Wisp? Those threats you listed are burned and either setup on or handled by your appropriate check. Right now the typical Mega Sableye is WOW/Recover/Calm Mind/Snarl to screw over both sides of the attack spectrum. I've walled and swept teams with just Sableye using that set. The best part is when they switch in Espeon to bounce status and you Snarl, dealing ~50%, drop their Special Attack, and either finish them off next turn or set up Calm Mind.

Also, PS is definitely not next to useless without Prankster. It's akin to a slow Baton Pass on stuff like Tyranitar, giving you the switch initiative and brings in your next Pokemon up against a weakened target. It's entirely viable on the mega form since Magic Bounce will already cause switches and you can pick up the momentum for your team.

Things that can overwhelm Mega Sableye are Togekiss, Talonflame, Sub+Swords Dance Lando, some Mega Gardevoir (depends on how many Calm Minds you have), and other things that are either immune to Burn/can avoid it and/or have strong Fairy STAB that hits hard before Calm Mind overwhelms them. Luckily a lot of those things are checked by Heatran and Rotom-H, which I like to pair with Mega Sableye on my HellCore and HellCore v2.0: What's Cooking? teams respectively.