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Really? Because I've switched to Mega Sableye and not had these problems. Are you forgetting it has Will-O-Wisp? Those threats you listed are burned and either setup on or handled by your appropriate check. Right now the typical Mega Sableye is WOW/Recover/Calm Mind/Snarl to screw over both sides of the attack spectrum. I've walled and swept teams with just Sableye using that set. The best part is when they switch in Espeon to bounce status and you Snarl, dealing ~50%, drop their Special Attack, and either finish them off next turn or set up Calm Mind.
Also, PS is definitely not next to useless without Prankster. It's akin to a slow Baton Pass on stuff like Tyranitar, giving you the switch initiative and brings in your next Pokemon up against a weakened target. It's entirely viable on the mega form since Magic Bounce will already cause switches and you can pick up the momentum for your team.
Things that can overwhelm Mega Sableye are Togekiss, Talonflame, Sub+Swords Dance Lando, some Mega Gardevoir (depends on how many Calm Minds you have), and other things that are either immune to Burn/can avoid it and/or have strong Fairy STAB that hits hard before Calm Mind overwhelms them. Luckily a lot of those things are checked by Heatran and Rotom-H, which I like to pair with Mega Sableye on my HellCore and HellCore v2.0: What's Cooking? teams respectively.
I'm not denying that once Sableye-M gets to +2 or +3 CM it wrecks, but getting there is the problem. In a Metagame infested with high BP STABs, it finds it hard to do that.
Plus the when-to-mega shenanigans is there.
A non-Prankster WillOWisp is easier to mitigate. I did mention Substitute KyuB. Diggersby rocks it a considerable amount with LO Precipice Blades. Thundurus is there as well. Aerodactyl Mega 0HKOes it if Mega'd. And Quagsire just laughs at the set you gave.
It does very good against a passive team but against a team with good HO Stall Breakers, it takes impeccable support to get Sableye-M started.
On the first turn against their Diggersby. Burn it and then Recover off Precipice Blades/switch to something to tank the next Precipice Blades. I believe in mega evolving right away with Sableye because Magic Bounce is such a good ability to use with the set I run. Now you can't be Taunted by Thundurus. Now you can bounce hazards.
Sub Kyurem is handled by its teammates (I listed Heatran and Rotom-H as options, both of them can beat it). Thundurus is handled by Rotom-H. Quagsire is passive and is stalled out by it even if it burns you with Scald. I don't worry about Quagsire on any team really, since I don't run setup 9 times out of 10 and I usually have Taunt/Tangrowth/clerics. It's not even one the list of my worries like ever.
I'm not trying to say Mega Sableye is god or anything, but it can be part of a great core, the point of Doctor Kibble-bibble: DMD 's post with Gliscor, and my point with Heatran/Rotom-H. What it can't take should be things its partner can, i.e. the theory behind a solid core. This isn't true of something like say Mega Aerodactyl, which is very hard to switch into anyway, but slap on a Lando-T and that patches up that weakness. Ice Punch Diggersby? Defensive Rotom-H tanks it, especially once burned (see my first sentence.)
I would like to add that the explicit point of Mega Sableye being part of the core is hazards denial, which regular Sableye does not do full stop. The point of Mega Sableye isn't the Calm Mind abuse, that's just a fringe benefit, so arguing that it can't do that part well in STABmons is sort of an irrelevant criticism.
If there's some bulkier Magic Bouncer out there (There isn't) then sure, Mega Sableye is iffy to run. But here and now, Mega Sableye is by far the bulkiest Magic Bouncer around to deny hazards with.
There's no denying that. Gliscor can definitely find several opportunities to remove hazards. It's Mega Sableye that finds it hard to switch in.
And why would keep Diggersby in on a non-Mega Sableye anyway? After Mega Evolving, it gets 2HKOed by Precipice Blades, while Rotom-H can't take a lot of FakeSpeeds.
If the main job of the core is hazards control, then it has to get past the one or two nukes that Stall teams usually carry, which is too hard to achieve.
It's okay, even essential to carry one Mon to remove hazards, but a core centered around hazard control is unnecessary. It's not like STABmons is a spikestacking festival as of now.
I don't see the reason to even compare M-Sableye to Sableye outside of the fact that you can't use both on the same team. One is a stallwincon with its CM set and the other is an amazing utility mon. Hell you can probably use M-Sableye as a utilitymon as well, having access to slow sleep (guarantees 1 more turn of sleep vs faster sleep) and slow pivot. It's like comparing Lando-T to Lando-I - they're both very different in their roles.
I don't see the reason to even compare M-Sableye to Sableye outside of the fact that you can't use both on the same team. One is a stallwincon with its CM set and the other is an amazing utility mon. Hell you can probably use M-Sableye as a utilitymon as well, having access to slow sleep (guarantees 1 more turn of sleep vs faster sleep) and slow pivot. It's like comparing Lando-T to Lando-I - they're both very different in their roles.
It isn't just about hazards, it's about control over the game. If your only hazard removable is a zapdos and they have a rocks terrakion, then your opponent gets a chance to wear you down with double switches, and if you do get a switch-in with your zapdos you are going to be pressured to remove rocks later and lose momentum. This core allows you to either block or immediately remove hazards from everything except landorus-i, which is a pretty huge asset for stall teams. Even just blocking stealth rocks is excellent, but its not like spikes are non-existent. HO leads like skarmory and deoxys-s are semi-common, and pokemon such as garchomp, hippowdon, chesnaught, ferrothorn, landorus-i/t, greninja and even diggersby if it wants can lay down spikes and do so commonly enough. Hazards are hugely important in pokemon and often mean the difference between a win a and a loss, especially when you're using stall.
It isn't just about hazards, it's about control over the game. If your only hazard removable is a zapdos and they have a rocks terrakion, then your opponent gets a chance to wear you down with double switches, and if you do get a switch-in with your zapdos you are going to be pressured to remove rocks later and lose momentum. This core allows you to either block or immediately remove hazards from everything except landorus-i, which is a pretty huge asset for stall teams. Even just blocking stealth rocks is excellent, but its not like spikes are non-existent. HO leads like skarmory and deoxys-s are semi-common, and pokemon such as garchomp, hippowdon, chesnaught, ferrothorn, landorus-i/t, greninja and even diggersby if it wants can lay down spikes and do so commonly enough. Hazards are hugely important in pokemon and often mean the difference between a win a and a loss, especially when you're using stall.
I'd disagree. I'm on my phone, but I'm very sure the difference of usage between SR and Spikes is quite a lot. STABmons is too offensive for hazard stacking. And the usage of Landorus-T has shot up in ORAS.
Like I said, hazard removal is essential. There's simply no need to overdo it.
There is literally no such thing as too offensive for hazard stacking. Hyper offensive teams are probably the most spikes happy teams. Bouncing hazards (or the threat thereof) is infinitely more momentum than having to take damage and then remove the hazards.
There is literally no such thing as too offensive for hazard stacking. Hyper offensive teams are probably the most spikes happy teams. Bouncing hazards (or the threat thereof) is infinitely more momentum than having to take damage and then remove the hazards.
Since we're on the topic of cores, how about we do some theorymoning and analysis?
Fitting Standard Cores in STABmons
A good core is at the heart of teambuilding. Think of them as teams within a team. Some serve to strengthen your defense by covering each other's weaknesses. Offensive cores break down each other's checks and counters, giving their partner the opportunity to clean up the opponent's remaining Pokemon. The most important part to remember when building a core is cohesion which requires you to identify an individual Pokemon's weaknesses and then assign it a partner (or two) to buttress those weaknesses without burdening the first Pokemon.
Example - Defensive Core Pokemon A is weak to Fire and Ice. It resists Fighting and is immune to Ground. Pokemon B is weak to Ground and Fighting. It resists Ice naturally and resists Fire due to an ability.
Example - Offensive Core Pokemon A hits most of the typical special walls for SE damage but struggles with physical walls. It struggles with hazards. Pokemon B takes care of the physical walls Pokemon A can't threaten while also clearing hazards with the free turns gained.
Common Cores
A) Fire/Water/Grass
This core is a basic building block for a lot of teams because the three types can cover each other's weaknesses.
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This defensive OU core is designed to check "a lot of top tier threats, like megagross, keldeo, bisharp, sand offense, rain offense, diancie, landog, non-bd azu, latis, and a lot more!"
Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Iron Defense
Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Roar
Let's look at its synergy.
Heatran is weak to Water, Ground, and Fighting. It resists Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, and Steel. Tangrowth is weak to Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice, and Poison. It resists Electric, Grass, Ground, and Water. Slowbro is weak to Bug, Dark, Electric, Ghost, and Grass. It resists Fire, Fire, Ice, Psychic, Steel, and Water.
Heatran's weakness to Ground is handled by Tangrowth, to Fighting is handled by Slowbro, and to Water is handled by both.
All of Tangrowth's weaknesses are handled by Heatran. Slowbro can take Fire and Ice.
Slowbro's weaknesses to Bug and Grass are handled by Heatran. Tangrowth can take Electric.
Overall, the core can cover every type except Rock, Ghost, and Dark.
Now what happens when we apply this core to STABmons? Common Pokemon like Landorus-T and Mega Gyarados are capable of breaking it down now thanks to the new moves they've gained. Before, Landorus-T would struggle with Tangrowth, but now it can threaten with Flying STAB. Gyarados also gained Flying STAB (in its base form) to hit Tangrowth with, and with Crunch and Water STAB it threatens the other two teammates. Greninja, Thundurus, and Scizor will also give the core problems with the right coverage.
Verdict: Tweak the spreads to accommodate these common threats and/or change some of the members of the core. Adding Rotom-W would remove the Dark, Ghost, and Electric weaknesses. A physically defensive spread could provide a nice check to Gyarados, Scizor, and Landorus-T. A specially defensive spread could take Thundurus and Greninja's hits a bit better. Neutral Knock Offs, Thunderbolts, and Night Dazes are still dangerous, however.
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This offensive OU core combines the synergy of FWG with a secondary DSF (Dragon/Steel/Fairy) synergy. Each member is designed to remove its fellow teammate's checks while also serving as checks to each other's threats.
Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 188 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Magma Storm
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earth Power
Mega Sceptile can remove Ground and Dragon targets for Heatran and Water targets for both Heatran and Azumarill. Heatran can remove Fairy targets for Sceptile and Steel and Grass targets for both Sceptile and Azumarill. Azumarill can remove Fighting and Ground targets for Heatran and Fire targets for both Heatran and Sceptile.
Looking at viable STABmons walls, we see the core has a few roadblocks. Defensive Gyarados and Zapdos can take advantage of a few matchups, mainly because they can threaten all three members with SE STAB or status plus they have a way to heal off damage. Thundurus is the flipside to Zapdos, being an offensive check that can give all three trouble. Mega Venusaur shrugs off most their attacks (even Heatran's Fire STAB thanks to Thick Fat). A set of Synthesis/Earthquake/Sludge Bomb/Giga Drain can threaten all of them right back. Chansey also doesn't mind this core too much. Taunt does wear it down, however.
Verdict: Access to new moves can alleviate some of the problems this core faces. Spore allows Mega Sceptile a way to cripple a check, bar Venusaur. Heatran can scout with King's Shield for certain physical attacks like Crabhammer or Earthquake. Non-AV Azumarill with Belly Drum puts more pressure on the opponent once Venusaur is out of the way. An extra teammate like your own Thundurus helps eliminate most of these roadblocks for you. And luckily, stuff that give this team the most trouble like Mega Venusaur are extremely rare in STABmons, so there's a good chance that your opponent will only have one solid answer to this core.
B) VoltTurn
Volt Switch and U-turn cores are a staple in OU where grabbing enough momentum can keep you one step ahead of your opponent. There's a lot of variety within the archetype itself, from speedy, offensive cores, to defensive, slow cores, to balance, to utility, to everything in between!
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Landorus-T and Rotom-H are great U-turn and Volt Switch abusers in their own right, so why not put them together? Fortunately, they also grant some great synergy with their typing, giving the core a lot of flexibility when it comes to building your individual sets.
Landorus-T packs Intimidate to weaken offensive attackers, which can cause a switch and open up the door to U-turn into your next Pokemon. It can also lay Stealth Rocks on the switch or even threaten to attack with a strong Earthquake off base 145 Attack. Choice Scarf is popular on it while a more defensive set appreciates Leftovers. Rotom-H doesn't mind taking the Ice and Water attacks thrown at Landorus-T. Unlike Landorus, it gains STAB on its switch move, making up for its somewhat mediocre Special Attack. With the right spread it can function defensively as well with solid stats on both sides. Thanks to Trick, Choice Scarf is common and adds to the unpredictability of its sets. Like Landorus, Leftovers are preferred with bulkier builds.
In STABmons, this core gets only better. Now Landorus-T has access to Defog, which it can use before U-turning away. It also gains Roost to add to its longevity. Plus with an ever stronger Ground STAB in Precipice Blades, fully offensive sets are highly viable, which compounds the usefulness of U-turn. Rotom-W may not have gained recovery, but it does have new tools at its disposal, like Scald and Nuzzle, which can cripple certain switch-ins before it Volt Switches to a teammate. With the combination of offensive pressure, soft defenses (Intimidate, Scald, Rocky Helmet), momentum, and hazard control, this core can easily transition from OU to STABmons and is worth considering for any team thanks to these numerous benefits.
Verdict: Use VoltTurn more. Those two Pokemon are excellent examples of OU strategies that fit perfectly into STABmons. Some others include Scizor, Thundurus, and Diggersby, three Pokemon that cause a lot of switches and can use that to your advantage.
C) Hazard Control
Hazard stacking is useful on just about any style of team. Offensive teams appreciate the 2HKOs that turn into OHKOs. Defensive teams appreciate the entropy, especially if the team can shuffle the opponent while preventing them from clearing hazards. Balanced teams like it for both reasons, as it helps soften walls and also deters certain offensive threats from entering the field until the hazards are cleared.
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This balanced OU core has two hazard setters, Hippowdon and Ferrothorn, and Starmie for hazard removal.
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
Hippowdon lays Stealth Rock while also maintaining an offensive presence with two attacks. It has Slack Off for recovery so it can continue to support its team. Its great Defense allows it to handle some of the threats to the other two members. Ferrothorn is a Spike stacker. Grass STAB threatens some of the Water Pokemon that give Hippowdon trouble, plus it easily tanks their attacks. Starmie is a Rapid Spinner which is important on a hazard stacking team so you don't remove your own hazards. It can beat a few Pokemon that threaten both Hippowdon and Ferrothorn, like Keldeo.
Stacking in STABmons is a bit trickier because you need to make sure you're not laying hazards while the opponent sets up a Belly Drum in your face and proceeds to sweep you. Common setup Pokemon like Kangaskhan, Diggersby, Talonflame, and Azumarill can give this core trouble if its not careful. Nukes, or Pokemon that hit hard without setup, need to be addressed also. Charizard-Y can decimate this core with ease. Also watch out for Taunt, as Thundurus and Sableye can come in on some of these Pokemon and halt their attempts to stack while also retaliating with powerful attacks or status.
Verdict: It's important to have something ready to halt a sweep from setup, so Unaware, Skarmory, or Heatran (depending on what you need to handle) can check and counter most if not all of those four setup sweepers listed. Charizard-Y is hard to switch into, even for dedicated walls like Chansey or Heatran, so having a way to sponge a nuke's attacks is vital. A specially bulky Rotom-H can tank most Charizards, just make sure hazards are clear from your field first. A Defiant Pokemon will deter your opponent from clearing the hazards you setup. A ghost Pokemon can block Rapid Spin. These should be considered also. For a more offensive presence, Garchomp is a great stacker with Stealth Rock or Spikes. Deoxys can provide fast or defensive stacking depending on the form and can use Taunt to block Defog. Skarmory can also provide hazards and run a shuffling set with Whirlwind or a suicide set with Brave Bird.
Possible points of discussion:
What are other type combinations (besides FWG) that transition well from standard OU to STABmons?
What are combinations that are unique to STABmons?
What cores don't transition to STABmons very well if at all?
Other cores to consider:
Normal Spam
Weather Cores
DragMag
Doom Shuffle
SkarmChan and similar specific Def/SDef cores
How important are developments in standard OU cores to you when teambuilding in STABmons? Are they good blueprints for guidance or do you approach STABmons as a vacuum and ignore OU trends completely?
Name some Pokemon that fit in multiple cores on the same team.
Name some Pokemon with entirely different roles between OU and STABmons cores.
What Pokemon give typical cores the most trouble? Is it the same Pokemon in OU and STABmons? Are there certain Pokemon, i.e. fast offensive, that always give cores trouble?
This core is really obvious and really standard but it still works wonders in STABmons. They form a fantastic "catch all" to pretty much all except a few specific threats in STABmons. Skarmory serves as a reliable counter to Diggersby, and still a very solid check to Wild Charge variants. Pretty much the only physical attackers in STABmons that can get past Skarm are physical Fire types like Heatran and Zard-X. Similarly, Chans does very well against most special attackers. One great thing that benefits it in STABmons is access to Whirlwind, which allows it to phase out dangerous setup sweepers like Togekiss. Of course there are still several common threats that can get past this core, but that's what the rest of your team is for. Pairing this core with a bulky Water / Ground type works pretty well I think.
As for stuff that gives cores trouble:
Kyurem-B is incredibly hard to wall for stall, especially sub + setup variants. Against offense it has a bit of an opportunity cost, but against stall it can easily find opportunities to set up because of its inherently massive bulk. It's a great stallbreaker in OU, and it's easily one of the best stallbreakers in STABmons (I still have no idea how to wall this).
Not really sure why but stall Aegislash is incredibly anti-meta, probably because no one prepares for toxic. A lot of standard STABmons stall teams get hard walled by this, I'm sure a lot of people here can vouch :^)
So it's one of those hazard stack + Defiant + Ghost type cores, but this one really does fit together pretty well.
Garchomp is the hazard setter that can set and shuffle pretty reliably. It also has the perk of being able to punish fake out + espeeders with rocky helmet rough skin damage racking up, while still being able to set up 1 layer of stealth rock and/or spikes. Precipice blades allows it to beat mega diancie, espeon, and mega absol from keeping stealth rock from getting up as well as some of those diggersbys who try to earthquake second turn. Overall a pretty effective set, but you won't get up hazards if mega sableye is on the field, and try not to be too obvious when leading with this. You could opt for earthquake over precipice blades if accuracy is a concern however. If you're concerned with togekiss using you as set up fodder, you could try running roar.
Braviary is the defiant user that can abuse defog pretty well. However, what's so great about braviary is that it can also abuse fake out + extremespeed with good power, unlike other defiant users. And once it boosts, something will probably die, because +2 dragon ascent and +2 fakespeed becomes extremely powerful. It revenge kills, wallbreaks; there's not too much to say. You could run life orb if you want, for the OHKO on Mega Sableye on +2 and probably a lot of other stuff but that's up to you, since longevity is still pretty important (especially with the SR weakness). Another thing worth noting is that it can get boosts from things like parting shot and intimidate, which can come in handy sometimes.
Aegislash was chosen as the spinblocker, due to its ability to put a game away in a hurry if hazards are up. It can set up on a lot of dangerous mons and proceed to force switches with shadow force/sacred sword/substitute until nearly everything dies. +1 shadow force kills pretty much everything relevant in the meta, and sacred sword can dent many normal types. Substitute was used over gear grind or something like that because I wanted to be able to set up all over defensive mons and not have to worry about chansey. Overall a great win condition that complements this hazard core extremely well.
Threats
Mega Sableye - Pretty much autowins against this unless you've gotten a few boosts with shift gear with aegislash already.
Diggersby - Coverage, power. Threatens pretty much all offensive cores anyways.
Taunt + Will-O Sableye or (Mega banette???) - You can probably shuffle it out, but still you should probably run something else for this.
Pursuit - rip aegislash
Scarf Steel or ghost mons - Mostly heatran. Again, threatens most offensive cores anyways.
There are probably some more, but I have to say that this core is fun and effective regardless.
Has anyone tried out this dude for anti-FakeSpeed spam? He's no bulky bodybuilder, but that's not the crux of this strategy. Basically Inner Focus ignores the Fake Out flinch and you bop the next turn with Drain Punch/Fighting STAB. Diggs never saw it coming! He has other options to consider depending on if you want some kind of bulky utility or pure offense. Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Moonlight, Knock Off, and a flurry of Psychic moves give him some nice support and staying power. Swords Dance, Close Combat (or whatever Fighting STAB you want), Knock Off, Play Rough (from Kirlia), and elemental punches are nice for the offensive builds.
And here's another thing to consider: Besides being semi-immune to FakeSpeed revenge after a Swords Dance, he can also run Magic Coat to teach Sableye a lesson, though Parting Shot on MC will phaze you instead. Just something to think about. Or you could use Substitute I guess.
The biggest drawback with Gallade is you can't use a mega like Aerodactyl or Sableye, two pretty defining threats at the moment, and to top it off he's dealt with by those two. Other Inner Focus mons that can abuse a similar strategy include Lucario, Dragonite, and Bisharp, but they might prefer Justified, Multiscale, and Defiant respectively in nearly every other situation.
Has anyone tried out this dude for anti-FakeSpeed spam? He's no bulky bodybuilder, but that's not the crux of this strategy. Basically Inner Focus ignores the Fake Out flinch and you bop the next turn with Drain Punch/Fighting STAB. Diggs never saw it coming! He has other options to consider depending on if you want some kind of bulky utility or pure offense. Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Moonlight, Knock Off, and a flurry of Psychic moves give him some nice support and staying power. Swords Dance, Close Combat (or whatever Fighting STAB you want), Knock Off, Play Rough (from Kirlia), and elemental punches are nice for the offensive builds.
And here's another thing to consider: Besides being semi-immune to FakeSpeed revenge after a Swords Dance, he can also run Magic Coat to teach Sableye a lesson, though Parting Shot on MC will phaze you instead. Just something to think about. Or you could use Substitute I guess.
The biggest drawback with Gallade is you can't use a mega like Aerodactyl or Sableye, two pretty defining threats at the moment, and to top it off he's dealt with by those two. Other Inner Focus mons that can abuse a similar strategy include Lucario, Dragonite, and Bisharp, but they might prefer Justified, Multiscale, and Defiant respectively in nearly every other situation.
To be honest, I think Lucario can pull it off much better. If Gallade wants to surprise, it can utilize WillOWisp to neuter incoming walls and threaten any pink blobs attempting to heal them.
As an avid user of DragMag and a full supporter of it (I really do think it's excellent in the metagame), I'll post my favorite core:
Core:Drag/(BAN ME PLEASE)/Mag
Description: This core is incredibly difficult for bulky teams to handle due to how powerful all three Pokemon are. At a first glance, you may notice that Togekiss isn't Geomancy! That can't be right! Can it? Well, I chose not to run Geomancy on this variation of Togekiss and you would be surprised at just how hard it can hit. Specs Hurricane hits like a truck, and has that nifty 60% chance to confuse the opponent! Moonblast is also very important to this core because it has a 60% chance to drop SpA which, backed by its raw power, can force a lot of things out. I won't post a wall of calcs showing its power, but I think you can imagine it haha! Anyways, Magnezone is standard Magnezone that makes a great partner for Kyurem-Black and Togekiss. I'm running a LO set of Leftovers because I wanted a more powerful Doom Desire when Magnezone is shuffling around. I'll say it now: do not use Specs / Scarf Magnezone. I've seen those repeatedly and they are just not good sets. Specs is deadweight against offense unless it can get a Doom Desire up, and even then it struggles, while Scarf isn't powerful enough to spam Doom Desire and it kills momentum when it comes in. Life Orb does both and keeps up momentum, along with crippling physical attackers in the process. There may be something you notice on both Magnezone and Togekiss: stat drops. This is where Kyurem-Black comes in. After the opponent has been worn down a bunch through Doom Desire or Hurricane, then Kyurem-Black is able to come in and set up a Substitute. From here, Kyurem-Black can take advantage of the weakened team and set up a Dragon Dance to sweep with Icicle Spear. I know a lot of people advocate for Icicle Crash > Icicle Spear, but I really do not see the advantages. Icicle Spear breaks Substitute, still is very powerful, even it hits twice, and has a chance to go even higher. Along with a higher crit ratio. I guess it's kind of up to personal choice, but I've used Icicle Spear over it many times and enjoyed it. The EVs are from Eevee General, and are to optimize bulk and to outspeed a certain Pokemon... I can't put my finger on it, however.
Trouble afoot?
Fire-types:
Fire-types are such a big threat to this core because I have no resists to their moves. However, all of them are 2HKOed / OHKOed by Togekiss with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also a large factor, because then they are less of a problem. Heatran in particular is pure hell. Doom Desire / Blue Flare smack incredibly hard and nothing on this core wants to take the hits. It can also Roar away Kyurem-Black, which has about a 10% chance to 2HKO at +6. Yeah, Kyurem-Black is not making it through Heatran. Heatran can be handled with a partner I list below. Rotom-Heat is 2HKOed by Hurricane / Aura Sphere after Stealth Rock, but it resists Kyurem-Black's and Magnezone's attacks, along with taking advantage of Togekiss in general. The latter two Pokemon are beaten by Kyurem-B late game, and neither likes Stealth Rock / momentum from Magnezone's Volt Switch, but they both are faster than the entirety of this core and are able to place a bunch off offensive pressure on the core. Mega Charizard Y can blast the core with its high powered attacks, and Mega Charizard X threatens the Dragon Dance on Magnezone / choice-locked Togekiss (Fire Blast). Magnezone can use King's Shield on Mega Charizard X's V-Create, but it's still shaky and the raw power overwhelms the core.
Normal-types:
Normal-types are a secondary threat that give this core trouble, but are able to effectively beat it with proper prediction / plays. Diggersby, Kangaskhan, and Stoutland lose to a boosted Kyurem-Black, but the offensive pressure they apply is often very hard to deal with. Magnezone is beaten by Diggersby, Judgment Meloetta, Drain Punch Kangaskhan, and Superpower Stoutland. Any Shell Smash boost / Belly Drum boost is also overwhelming. Specially Defensive Meloetta is actually a very underrated set at the moment, and it's able to walk over this core. Kyurem-Black is not given room to set up because Boomburst goes through Substitutes, while Magnezone and Togekiss have their attacks shrugged off. Diggersby can revenge kill the entire core with Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Precipice Blades, but does lose to Kyurem-Black if it has not received too much damage late game. Normal-types offensive pressure in general is a lot for this core, and must be assisted with teammates.
Overall, the core is pretty strong, but it suffers from offensive pressure being too much for it. How is this mitigated you may ask? Well...
Teammates?
Mega Aerodactyl is an excellent partner for this core because it resists Normal- and Fire-type attacks, and is able to smack both of them via Diamond Storm or Dragon Ascent. Mega Aerodactyl loves Steel-types being worn down through Magnezone, along with the powerful core that is birdspam also being created. In return, Mega Aerodactyl wears down Fire-types so that Togekiss can freely spam Moonblast, and it also wears the opponent down with Taunt / Dragon Ascent, which means that Kyurem-Black can sweep later on. Heatran in particular is an excellent target for Mega Aerodactyl, and is the only reason to use the lure move Aqua Tail. Kyurem-Black smacks Landorus-Therian (which can't even touch M-Aero, mind you) and leaves it so Mega Aerodactyl has a chance to clean up later in the match just like any of the core. Mega Aerodactyl is a fantastic Pokemon in the current metagame and is wonderful as an addition to this core as you are building your team.
Spikes Diggersby, as much as people diss on it, makes a fantastic pair for this team. Spikes support is crucial because this core forces switches and it makes it easier for Kyurem-Black to set up late game. Explosion picks off whatever it wants to early game, which could potentially pay off in the late game. However, if you're looking for a more standard set (and less fun!!!), then you can use the typical revenge killer set. Precipice Blades / Head Charge is a must on this set because the higher powered moves makes for better offense. Really, a lot of offensive Pokemon make for good partners to this core, and Diggersby is excellent on nearly all teams regardless.
Landorus-Therian is a less gimmicky Spikes setter and also provides a Diggersby check, along with a defensive backbone for the team. My one concern with using it is how much more common regular Landorus is becoming. Anyways, Landorus-T also provides a secondary Aegislash check which can never hurt, so that's a perk to using it. Think of it like this: Pokemon who are able to provide high powered attacks and utility will make a good teammate for this core. Ground- and Flying-type Pokemon have good synergy in general and will make for good partenrs to this core. Some others include Talonflame, Krookodile, and Braviary, all of which can be merged to create even more cores!
Summary:
DragFagMag: Kyurem-B, Togekiss, Magnezone
Teammates: Mega Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Landorus-Therian
Weak to: Fire-types, Normal-types
Some other options:
Core: LO Mixed Kyurem-B, Geomancy Togekiss, Mega Diancie > Togekiss, Garchomp > Kyurem-B, Dugtrio > Magnezone
As an avid user of DragMag and a full supporter of it (I really do think it's excellent in the metagame), I'll post my favorite core:
Core:Drag/(BAN ME PLEASE)/Mag
Description: This core is incredibly difficult for bulky teams to handle due to how powerful all three Pokemon are. At a first glance, you may notice that Togekiss isn't Geomancy! That can't be right! Can it? Well, I chose not to run Geomancy on this variation of Togekiss and you would be surprised at just how hard it can hit. Specs Hurricane hits like a truck, and has that nifty 60% chance to confuse the opponent! Moonblast is also very important to this core because it has a 60% chance to drop SpA which, backed by its raw power, can force a lot of things out. I won't post a wall of calcs showing its power, but I think you can imagine it haha! Anyways, Magnezone is standard Magnezone that makes a great partner for Kyurem-Black and Togekiss. I'm running a LO set of Leftovers because I wanted a more powerful Doom Desire when Magnezone is shuffling around. I'll say it now: do not use Specs / Scarf Magnezone. I've seen those repeatedly and they are just not good sets. Specs is deadweight against offense unless it can get a Doom Desire up, and even then it struggles, while Scarf isn't powerful enough to spam Doom Desire and it kills momentum when it comes in. Life Orb does both and keeps up momentum, along with crippling physical attackers in the process. There may be something you notice on both Magnezone and Togekiss: stat drops. This is where Kyurem-Black comes in. After the opponent has been worn down a bunch through Doom Desire or Hurricane, then Kyurem-Black is able to come in and set up a Substitute. From here, Kyurem-Black can take advantage of the weakened team and set up a Dragon Dance to sweep with Icicle Spear. I know a lot of people advocate for Icicle Crash > Icicle Spear, but I really do not see the advantages. Icicle Spear breaks Substitute, still is very powerful, even it hits twice, and has a chance to go even higher. Along with a higher crit ratio. I guess it's kind of up to personal choice, but I've used Icicle Spear over it many times and enjoyed it. The EVs are from Eevee General, and are to optimize bulk and to outspeed a certain Pokemon... I can't put my finger on it, however.
Trouble afoot?
Fire-types:
Fire-types are such a big threat to this core because I have no resists to their moves. However, all of them are 2HKOed / OHKOed by Togekiss with proper prediction. Stealth Rock is also a large factor, because then they are less of a problem. Heatran in particular is pure hell. Doom Desire / Blue Flare smack incredibly hard and nothing on this core wants to take the hits. It can also Roar away Kyurem-Black, which has about a 10% chance to 2HKO at +6. Yeah, Kyurem-Black is not making it through Heatran. Heatran can be handled with a partner I list below. Rotom-Heat is 2HKOed by Hurricane / Aura Sphere after Stealth Rock, but it resists Kyurem-Black's and Magnezone's attacks, along with taking advantage of Togekiss in general. The latter two Pokemon are beaten by Kyurem-B late game, and neither likes Stealth Rock / momentum from Magnezone's Volt Switch, but they both are faster than the entirety of this core and are able to place a bunch off offensive pressure on the core. Mega Charizard Y can blast the core with its high powered attacks, and Mega Charizard X threatens the Dragon Dance on Magnezone / choice-locked Togekiss (Fire Blast). Magnezone can use King's Shield on Mega Charizard X's V-Create, but it's still shaky and the raw power overwhelms the core.
Normal-types:
Normal-types are a secondary threat that give this core trouble, but are able to effectively beat it with proper prediction / plays. Diggersby, Kangaskhan, and Stoutland lose to a boosted Kyurem-Black, but the offensive pressure they apply is often very hard to deal with. Magnezone is beaten by Diggersby, Judgment Meloetta, Drain Punch Kangaskhan, and Superpower Stoutland. Any Shell Smash boost / Belly Drum boost is also overwhelming. Specially Defensive Meloetta is actually a very underrated set at the moment, and it's able to walk over this core. Kyurem-Black is not given room to set up because Boomburst goes through Substitutes, while Magnezone and Togekiss have their attacks shrugged off. Diggersby can revenge kill the entire core with Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Precipice Blades, but does lose to Kyurem-Black if it has not received too much damage late game. Normal-types offensive pressure in general is a lot for this core, and must be assisted with teammates.
Overall, the core is pretty strong, but it suffers from offensive pressure being too much for it. How is this mitigated you may ask? Well...
Teammates?
Mega Aerodactyl is an excellent partner for this core because it resists Normal- and Fire-type attacks, and is able to smack both of them via Diamond Storm or Dragon Ascent. Mega Aerodactyl loves Steel-types being worn down through Magnezone, along with the powerful core that is birdspam also being created. In return, Mega Aerodactyl wears down Fire-types so that Togekiss can freely spam Moonblast, and it also wears the opponent down with Taunt / Dragon Ascent, which means that Kyurem-Black can sweep later on. Heatran in particular is an excellent target for Mega Aerodactyl, and is the only reason to use the lure move Aqua Tail. Kyurem-Black smacks Landorus-Therian (which can't even touch M-Aero, mind you) and leaves it so Mega Aerodactyl has a chance to clean up later in the match just like any of the core. Mega Aerodactyl is a fantastic Pokemon in the current metagame and is wonderful as an addition to this core as you are building your team.
Spikes Diggersby, as much as people diss on it, makes a fantastic pair for this team. Spikes support is crucial because this core forces switches and it makes it easier for Kyurem-Black to set up late game. Explosion picks off whatever it wants to early game, which could potentially pay off in the late game. However, if you're looking for a more standard set (and less fun!!!), then you can use the typical revenge killer set. Precipice Blades / Head Charge is a must on this set because the higher powered moves makes for better offense. Really, a lot of offensive Pokemon make for good partners to this core, and Diggersby is excellent on nearly all teams regardless.
Landorus-Therian is a less gimmicky Spikes setter and also provides a Diggersby check, along with a defensive backbone for the team. My one concern with using it is how much more common regular Landorus is becoming. Anyways, Landorus-T also provides a secondary Aegislash check which can never hurt, so that's a perk to using it. Think of it like this: Pokemon who are able to provide high powered attacks and utility will make a good teammate for this core. Ground- and Flying-type Pokemon have good synergy in general and will make for good partenrs to this core. Some others include Talonflame, Krookodile, and Braviary, all of which can be merged to create even more cores!
Summary:
DragFagMag: Kyurem-B, Togekiss, Magnezone
Teammates: Mega Aerodactyl, Diggersby, Landorus-Therian
Weak to: Fire-types, Normal-types
Some other options:
Core: LO Mixed Kyurem-B, Geomancy Togekiss, Mega Diancie > Togekiss, Garchomp > Kyurem-B, Dugtrio > Magnezone
I have some similar teams utilising magnzone+things that hate skarmory/Ferrothorn/scizor, and while it sounds weird, I like to use chople berry on magnezone. It allows you to trap mega scizor, who would otherwise get up a shift gear against something and ohko everything with either gear grind or superpower. This is a great core otherwise, magnezone offense is really good right now.
After watching a BH strategy in a replay (Flint's Tinted Lens Tail Glow Dialga) I tried to find a way to incorporate it into STABmons. My first attempt was with Heatran and Fiery Dance to raise its Special Attack after using Doom Desire, since the move calculates damage based off your stat at the time it hits, not at the time you used it. Then use King's Shield to buy yourself another turn.
That didn't always work, so I've theorymonned another set that just might be what I'm looking for.
Once they see you're special, they'll bring in their dedicated special wall. However, Heatran/Chansey coming in to tank a +2 Doom Desire gets hit with a Secret Sword instead. Aegislash still walls you ... but not for long.
+2 252 SpA Lucario Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Inner Focus (as I mentioned a few posts above) helps block revenge antics. If Diggers tries to FakeSpeed you, it gets as far as Fake Out before you take it down with Secret Sword.
It might not be game breaking, but I have a feeling we won't find any game breaking strategies this far in. Regardless, I see some potential. I'll test it and see how it goes.
After watching a BH strategy in a replay (Flint's Tinted Lens Tail Glow Dialga) I tried to find a way to incorporate it into STABmons. My first attempt was with Heatran and Fiery Dance to raise its Special Attack after using Doom Desire, since the move calculates damage based off your stat at the time it hits, not at the time you used it. Then use King's Shield to buy yourself another turn.
That didn't always work, so I've theorymonned another set that just might be what I'm looking for.
Once they see you're special, they'll bring in their dedicated special wall. However, Heatran/Chansey coming in to tank a +2 Doom Desire gets hit with a Secret Sword instead. Aegislash still walls you ... but not for long.
+2 252 SpA Lucario Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Inner Focus (as I mentioned a few posts above) helps block revenge antics. If Diggers tries to FakeSpeed you, it gets as far as Fake Out before you take it down with Secret Sword.
It might not be game breaking, but I have a feeling we won't find any game breaking strategies this far in. Regardless, I see some potential. I'll test it and see how it goes.
This is a really cool set, and when you posted it in the om room i thought i should try it out! http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-218069309
My opponent didn't have the best team and it was low ladder, but it took down Talonflame and weakened Jolteon, making things a significant amount easier for Aerodactyl to weaken down my opponents Diggers checks to where it could clean up the game
I find that it's a pretty rad mon, but really needs some team support to beat Aegislash, it's biggest counter (check if you run dp) . if you're really paranoid for Aegislash or if you don't care about nasty plot, I don't think dark pulse would be too bad of a replacement for it, as it's neutral coverage and something to hit Aegislash. Inner focus is nice ofc for getting the jump on Diggers and fakespeed in general.
I find that the max peed is usually irrelevant, and i prefer running just enough to outpace Jolly Diggers (160 speed, timid). Focus Sash has had the most success for me, as it pretty much guarantees you'll get a doom desire+king's shield off. Protect is also a cool option to guard from status, but from my experiences it doesn't really come in to play as much as king's shield would.
After watching a BH strategy in a replay (Flint's Tinted Lens Tail Glow Dialga) I tried to find a way to incorporate it into STABmons. My first attempt was with Heatran and Fiery Dance to raise its Special Attack after using Doom Desire, since the move calculates damage based off your stat at the time it hits, not at the time you used it. Then use King's Shield to buy yourself another turn.
That didn't always work, so I've theorymonned another set that just might be what I'm looking for.
Once they see you're special, they'll bring in their dedicated special wall. However, Heatran/Chansey coming in to tank a +2 Doom Desire gets hit with a Secret Sword instead. Aegislash still walls you ... but not for long.
+2 252 SpA Lucario Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 147-174 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Inner Focus (as I mentioned a few posts above) helps block revenge antics. If Diggers tries to FakeSpeed you, it gets as far as Fake Out before you take it down with Secret Sword.
It might not be game breaking, but I have a feeling we won't find any game breaking strategies this far in. Regardless, I see some potential. I'll test it and see how it goes.
This is literally the same thing I mentioned in the Underrated sets thread (Saying how Lucario may be a frail but good DD user), where I posted a Jirachi SubCM set with DD and Psystrike. The notion wasn't well received, if I recall correctly.
If you want to deal with Chansey, just go with Secret Sword. But you have to realize no Chansey will switch into Lucario on turn 1.
It is however great to KO Chansey with Secret Sword; then as the revenge killer gets in, KS and watch them get KOed by DD.
And of course, as discussed earlier, Inner Focus lets you eat bunnies for dinner.
basically, each of us have chosen a sub-stabmons format, and you will challenge each of us in any order to become "the champion of fronteir". simple stuff rite?
obviously each format we have chosen has some additional bans that we will eventually go through (because nu bibarel is a thing ;~;) but overall it will be fun, and there's no signups or anything! (i don't think there is at least..)
some of the new formats include:
Stabmons NU- myself being the frontier brain, where you will face the fearsome Xatu Warrior in his prime arena. basically, this format will just be regular NU with stabmons ruleset, along with a few extra bans.
Monotype Stabmons- Eevee general's the brain on this one, where you can finally spam dragon types without looking like a massive loser. typical monotype with stabmons rules applied...or is it stabmons with monotype rules? i don't know, but hopefully he shall inform you.
Gen 5 stabmons- ellipse is the brain for this. basically gen 5's stabmons. perma weather here we come!
LC stabmons- pagoose got this one down, watch as your favorite poke-petites fire powerful flaming V's or summoning giant pulses of origin as cutely as possible.
Stabmons UU- my idea stolen by Insanelegend >.> this format, much like NU, is Stabmons with UU banlist. somebody say v-create darmanitan? origin pulse mega blastoise? yes please!
so enjoy kicking our butts as you try to climb your way to victory~!
