1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Ladder STABmons

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Eevee General, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    Approved by Arcticblast.
    [​IMG]
    Art by Regime

    Welcome to the all new generation of STABmons! X & Y and then ORAS introduced us to many new Pokémon, moves, abilities, and even a new type, and all of it is sure to make a splash in the new and improved STABmons metagame. This time around, I've streamlined the rules to make it easier to play. Otherwise, it's basically the same old metagame you remember from before. Let's take a look around!

    +RULES
    • Pokémon can use all moves of the same type as their own typing. For example, Eevee is a Normal-type and now gains access to every Normal move along with its usual movepool that it learns via level up, breeding, TMs, HMs, and the move tutors.
    • Pokémon that evolve into a new type carry their old typing with them. For example, Espeon is a Psychic-type that evolves from Eevee so it now gains all Psychic moves and Normal moves.
    • Pokémon that change forme outside of battle may also transfer moves this way. For example, Shaymin is a Grass-type that changes forme with the Gracidea outside of battle into a Grass- and Flying-type. Since Shaymin-Sky can transform back into regular Shaymin, it can transfer its Flying moves to that forme.
    • For a complete list of evolution and forme type changes, see below.
    • Megas do not grant their new STABs to their base Pokemon! This is because Mega Evolution only takes place during battle when a Pokemon is unable to learn any moves. This is the same logic behind why Castform can't learn all Ice, Fire, and Water moves.

    +CLAUSES & BANS
    • Standard OU banlist, except:
      • Bans: Sylveon and Porygon-Z. Items: King's Rock, Razor Fang, Salamencite, Altarianite, Metagrossite, Lopunnite and Slowbronite.
      • Unbans: Darkrai, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Aegislash.
    • Sleep, OHKO, Species, Evasion, Moody, Swagger, Endless Battle, and Baton Pass clauses are in effect
    • Sketch is banned except on Smeargle
    • No Gen jumping types (An example would be Togekiss keeping its Normal typing from Gen 5.)

    +EXTRA
    Pokémon that change typing or lose a type during evolution:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Grass & Poison
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Ground, Steel, & Rock
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Steel, & Flying
    [​IMG]->[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Corresponding type & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Water, Fairy, & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Rock, Dark, & Ground
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Flying, & Water
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Psychic, Fighting & Fairy
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Flying, & Ground or [​IMG] Bug, Ghost, & Ground
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Dragon, Flying, & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Dark, Poison, & Bug
    [​IMG] -> [​IMG] Fire, Flying, & Normal

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Water, Poison, & Dragon


    Pokémon that change typing or lose a type during forme change:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Grass & Flying are interchangeable since forme change happens outside battle via the Gracidea.
    [​IMG] Although Rotom can change forme outside battle, it isn't allowed to transfer types between formes, except Ghost, because it forgets moves it can't learn when it returns to normal Rotom. For example, under normal circumstances, Rotom-Wash forgets Hydro Pump when it reverts back to Rotom.
    [​IMG] Kyurem can also change formes outside of battle, but it stays the same type when it changes, thus it can't carry over Fire and Electric moves from Reshiram and Zekrom respectively. And similar to Rotom, when the Kyurem formes separate with the DNA splicer, they forget their signature moves.

    The following Pokémon change only during battle and thus don't transfer types according to the rules of STABmons:
    Castform, Meloetta, Darmanitan, all Mega formes.


    +VIABILITY RANKING

    +CREATIVE & UNDERRATED SETS



    EDIT: Arcticblast was here, Birkal sux
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014 at 12:49 AM
    Snaquaza, Valmanway, ssneak and 11 others like this.
  2. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    Hey guys! The STABmons council is starting something! I present,

    STABmons Frontier
    Hello all! Welcome to STABmons Frontier. Let's face it, the STABmons ladder isn't the most exciting of ladders. This is a project to help get some people involved with STABmons and possibly aid some new people! This will be similar to other tier versions such as Lost Cave; however, there's a twist involved with STABmons Frontier. It's not some regular tier, no, it's much different. Instead of having just four people starting then winners being added on - we start with seven users you must beat in order to be added as an eighth member. Here are the basic rules:

    Challengers:
    • You may challenge the users in any way you'd like! Do note, however, that they're in this list for a reason. Hint hint.
    • All matches are best of one.
    • All challenges are to be played in the current metagame. If Diggersby gets banned halfway through your challenge, it may not be used from that point on.
    • Timer must be ON.
    • You may change your team throughout the challenge!
    • If you lose a match during your challenge, you must start over and wait at least 48 hours before rechallenging.
    • If you are caught cheating (eg giving me false results) you will be disqualified from the challenge!
    • You may challenge by contact through forums, IRC, PS!, or whatever you want, but forums are by far the best way to contact because you can message a user without them being online, and you should not claim your opponent is inactive if you have not contacted them on forums.
    Frontier Brains:
    • You may not decline a challenge without a good reason.
    • Inactivity will result in you being subbed out!
    • You may change your team throughout the challenge.
    • You must post here after winning or losing a match.
    • Like Smogon Frontier has, we are having a 'wildcard Frontier Brain' who you can challenge if you want to enter yourself. You have to challenge the wildcard player at the beginning of the challenge.

    Here's the lineup of elites you must go through in order to become a champion:


    [​IMG]
    Dome Ace The Eevee General (Eevee General)

    [5-3]
    Record (open)


    [​IMG]
    Pike Queen unfixable (Unfixable)


    [3-3]
    Record (open)

    W: asterat
    L: insanelegend
    L: Ellipse
    W: Zewwok
    L: Scarfnaut
    W: pocemon mastar


    [​IMG]
    Salon Maiden Pikachuun (Pikachuun)

    [4-2]
    Record (open)


    [​IMG]
    Palace Maven The Reptile (DreMZ)

    [2-2]
    Record (open)

    W: Ellipse
    W: gym leader alan
    L: Scarfnaut
    L: pocemon mastar


    [​IMG]
    Arena Tycoon Seraph's Fire

    [3-1]
    Record (open)

    W: Flame Emblem
    W: FishInABox
    W: Anttya
    L: Scarfnaut


    [​IMG]
    Factory Head DinaIsha (DinaIsha)

    [2-2]
    Record (open)

    L: Scarfnaut
    L: Anttya
    W: El-Soldier
    W: bluetn


    [​IMG]
    Pyramid King w0rd (word) - RETIRED

    [5-4]
    Record (open)

    W: Kingslayer2779
    W: gym leader alan
    L: Zewwok
    L: insanelegend
    W: Scarfnaut
    L: Anttyaz
    W: insanelegend
    W: asterat
    L: Scarfnaut


    [​IMG]
    Champion Scarfnaut (Scarf Wynaut)
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2014 at 12:31 PM
    unfixable, simsims2800 and Redless like this.
  3. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,729
    Meleotta @ Fist plate / spooky plate
    Nature: Timid
    Evs: 252 satk / 252 spe / 4 hp
    - Shell Smash
    - Boomburst
    - Psystrike / judgement
    - Judgement / aura sphere

    Can't think of a better shell smash sweeper. Either Dual STAB with the ability to punch through stronger special walls, and a stronger fighting move, or perfect coverage that beats up on ghosts between aura sphere and ghost judgement
  4. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,683
    Don't forget to put the rotom-forme exception in the OP (The one which Rotom-Wash can only learn electric, ghost, and water moves).

    Gonna shamelessly steal this set from the gen 5 thread now...
    Sylveon @ Earth Plate
    Ability: Pixillate
    Nature: Modest | Timid
    Evs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Shell Smash
    - Boomburst
    - Judgment
    - Psyshock

    This set does one thing well. Use Shell Smash, spam Pixillate-boosted STAB Boomburst, wreck face. Earth Plate Judgment is very good coverage, dealing with both of Sylveon's weaknesses. Psyshock is for anything really specially defensive.
  5. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    909
    I think Huge Power Azumarill could be quite good with access to all Water, Fairy and Normal moves. Huge variety of attacking moves, Belly Drum ExtremeSpeed, a lot of different options.
  6. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    290
    Haven't used this yet but holy shit
    Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Gale Wings
    Nature: Adamant
    Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Belly Drum
    - Acrobatics
    - V-Create/Flare Blitz
    - Roost/Steel Wing

    Automatic Acrobatics activation with Belly Drum, spamming a 110 BP Priority move at +6. This thing is insane. Thank you Fletchling, for taking a top-tier threat and turning it into a 1-turn death machine.

    +6 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 378-445 (107.38 - 126.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 410-483 (113.25 - 133.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The rest of its "counters" are obliterated by Flare Blitz and Steel Wing.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    PampkinPie, X5Dragon and Colossus like this.
  7. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    Does togekiss get gen5 normal moves? I feel like it should, even if it wouldn't get boomburst.
    sparktrain likes this.
  8. Captain Awesome

    Captain Awesome

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Messages:
    793
    What about for pokemon like Ampharos who gain a type when they Mega Evolve?

    EDIT: Don't forget that kirlia evolves into Gallade, so Gallade can use all Fairy-type moves.
  9. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    Captian Awesome, I would assume that because mega evolutions only happen in battle, like Melo-P, that they would not get MEvo moves.
  10. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    I added Gallade. Going to add the formes too.
    TheBurgerKing99 , I decided not to Gen jump Togekiss's Normal typing. I want to keep it simple and avoid confusion with past gen type changes (this would affect the Clefable and Granbull lines, too, so they stay just Fairy, they don't get Fairy/Normal.) I feel like it's already enough to let pre-evolution types carry forward. Had Togepi been Normal/Fairy...
  11. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    Aww, gona miss my SS toge set. On the other hand we have

    Kangas
    [​IMG]

    Who can finally abuse his ability to the fullest. With moves like fake out, extreme speed, he's good. But he's better than that, as he gets two terrifying moves. with access to the moves Super Fang and Seismic Toss, he's capable of 2hkoing any non-ghost in the game. All of them. Along with this, he gets both crunch and sucker punch to handle ghosts, and ends up being the most terrifying wallbreaker ever, only coming close to being stopped by sableye.
    Zekrenzo and Eevee General like this.
  12. SpartanMalice

    SpartanMalice

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    391
    Uhm, Super Fang doesn't work like that. It first reduces your health to half of said health, and the second time it would do the same thing in theory (even then not KO'ing it, but bringing it to 25), but I tested it with either Adrian or ChampionSteve (I don't remember), and it didn't work with Parental Bond.

    And by the way, I thought Meloetta's form change was restricted to in-battle ?
  13. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    That's what I said, lol (about Melo). Also, it does bring it does bring it down to 25%, where seismic toss kills everything. It does 200 damage, which is more than 25% of every pokemon in the game, which lets it get a 2hko on every pokemon that's not a ghost type, through burn, through defense boosts (maybe cosmic power or bulk up), and almost anything else.

    Edit: I feel like you thought I meant that because parental bond works twice, that it's a 2hko on one turn. I meant two turns, as in, it uses super fang, and then seismic toss, which kills everything.
  14. The Reptile

    The Reptile make it rain
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,341
    BEEP BEEP BIG THREAT COMING TROUGH


    Talonflame @ Life Orb / Sharp Beak
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash / Sword Dance
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire / V-Create / Flare Blitz
    - Extreme Speed / Roost

    This is is pretty simple. Smash and kill everything. What separates Talonflame from other Shell Smasher is Gale Wing. Gale Wing lets Talonflame bypass other priority except for ESpeed, which can be bypass by its own ESpeed. Because of Gale Wings, Sableye has troubles dealing with him. If Talonflame gets a Smash off, Sableye dies to Sharp Beak / LO Brave Bird (+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 322-379 (105.92 - 124.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sableye's best hope is to switch in on a +0 Brave Bird and bank on a really slim chance to live a 2HKO (252+ Atk Sharp Beak (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 160-190 (52.63 - 62.5%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO - Life Orb just 2HKO's straight up). Shell Smash isn't even necessary - Sword Dance is perfectly fine by itself. Sacred Fire is there as a reliable base 100 STAB with 50% chance to burn, which makes Talonflame bulkier than it looks along with the HP investment. V-Create at that speed, however, should be illegal. Also, unlike other Fire V-Create spammers, Talonflame has priority STAB to bypass the -1 Speed. Flare Blitz is stronger than Sacred Fire and doesn't drop your speed, but the recoil isn't good when your main STAB also gives you recoil. Extreme Speed is there to hurt other ESpeeders before they try and get cheeky and ESpeed you. However, if you don't mind that, you can use Roost instead. If Flying STAB isn't the reason why you want to use Talonflame, then you can run Max Atk / Max Spe instead to abuse the fact that holy shit that's a fast V-Create. The current EV spread lets you smack Jolly Excadrill with Fire STAB. Everything else you'd probably want to smash with a Brave Bird.

    Talonflame, however, has a terrible 4x SR weakness. Thankfully, Defog and better Rapid Spinners allowed make hazards have less of an impact in this gen, which is great for Talonflame.
  15. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    290
    This Talonflame set is very similar to the one I posted, but considering that mine gets you to +6 with 75% HP and no recoil, I'd like to hear what advantages your set has besides being slightly easier to set up. (Also, thanks for reminding me to put other Fire-type options >_<)
  16. The Reptile

    The Reptile make it rain
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,341
    I think the main difference between the SD/Smash set I posted and the Belly set you posted is that the BellyDrum set is a lot more riskier than a simple Smash set and has to BD to use its main STAB. Also, you're set definitely needs Extreme Speed, since +6 makes lack of STAB not that big of an issue. Meanwhile, it lets you beat other ESpeeders, since ESpeed has +2 priority thus out prioritizing anything by Gale Wings. This does mean you can't run Steel Wing, which helps vs Rock-types, but I think it's worth it. Another advantage is that if the SD / Smash set fails to sweep, it can switch out and try again. I won't say that one is better than the other (+6 Talonflame is VERY scary, and those calcs on Gliscor / Landorous-T is very impressive), but SD is much safer and reliable. It really just come downs to preference imo.

    EDIT: Also, while both are very weak to SR, BD is much more weaker to SR since SR eats up your berry at best and prevents you from setting up at all at worst
  17. Adrian Marin

    Adrian Marin

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    649
    Super Fang actually works with Parental Bond now, so Mega Kanghaskhan is potentially broken since it destroys ghosts with Crunch and defeats the rest with Super Fang and Seismic Toss (Unless you count Sableye/Spiritomb.) I honestly think Boomburst Sylveon is unhealthy for the metagame, nothing truly walls it consistently.

    Sableye is so much better now, Parting Shot is what makes Sableye such a dangerous threat, just spam Parting Shot for all you care and watch offense crumble! Even in Balanced Hackmons, Parting Shot is very powerful, some offensive players had to change the way they play just to cope with Parting Shot. Topsy Turvy is better known, but Substitute may be problematic for it. I use a set of:

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Topsy-turvy
    - Parting Shot
    - Destiny Bond
    - Recover

    This set is pretty standard in BH (Except that it has all the ways of dealing with threats mashed into one.) Sableye doesn't even need sleep now, it's actually a really good lead with Parting Shot and can stop sweepers in their tracks with Topsy Turvy. One can truly abuse Sableye by using Volt-Turn to constantly stay ahead of offense. Volt-Turn-Parting-Baton Stall actually works really well in BH, it also works amazingly in here.
  18. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    Going back to last gen's discussion about Rotom, do you think it's still necessary to prohibit the formes transferring STABs? What consequences would this have? Would it make any of the formes too powerful? (More powerful than already huge threats like Sylveon, Talonflame, etc?)

    I'm thinking Rotom-W is probably the happiest with stuff like Hydro Pump/Surf, Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Ice Beam, Hurricane, Spore, potentially Roost, too. If we can allow out of battle forme changes like Shaymin to pass its STABs, why not Rotom?
    Hollywood likes this.
  19. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    Because it gets all fire, water, grass, ice, flying, electric, and ghost moves. Which is insane.
  20. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    But that still doesn't give it any good setup moves. It's still just a somewhat bulky special attacker now with a much larger movepool. I mean, Shell Smash Espeon is insane. Boomburst Sylveon is insane. Adaptability Porygon-Z with Boomburst is insane. I guess I don't see Rotom breaking the metagame anytime soon if it had access to its other formes' STABs.
  21. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    677
    It's your meta, I say no, but it's up to you.
  22. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,683
    Get a Hydro Pump Rotom-Fan in X/Y legit then come back to me on that.
    It's not possible. The second you convert the forme back to another forme, the moves that it and only it got were deleted, which is why you don't see things like scarf Rotom-W running Overheat for coverage. My personal opinion is no for that reason, but do whatever you feel like.
  23. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    For the reason Pikachuun stated I'll keep Rotom as is. Works for me.
  24. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    998
    So I know that STABmons is a very offensive metagame, and that's ok, but I think some bans should happen because some pokemon are ridiculous. Mega Kangashkhan is likely to go uber soon, and if you give it extremespeed and power up punch it should have gone there when it was released in January. That's it for now but it should definitely go, right now.
  25. Eevee General

    Eevee General 97% OM Certified Fresh
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,234
    I'd like to see some more evidence honestly. Has anyone tested MegaKhan in STABmons yet? Any reliable counters or checks? I'm not saying I don't believe you Asterat, but I'm just hesitant to start banning so quickly. I mean, there isn't even a Gen 6 ladder yet.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)