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Ladder STABmons

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by The Eevee General, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    Approved by Arcticblast.
    [​IMG]

    Welcome to the all new generation of STABmons! Pokémon X & Y introduced us to many new Pokémon, moves, abilities, and even a new type, and all of it is sure to make a splash in the new and improved STABmons metagame. This time around, I've streamlined the rules to make it easier to play. Otherwise, it's basically the same old metagame you remember from before. Let's take a look around!

    +RULES
    • Pokémon can use all moves of the same type as their own typing. For example, Eevee is a Normal-type and now gains access to every Normal move along with its usual movepool that it learns via level up, breeding, TMs, HMs, and the move tutors.
    • Pokémon that evolve into a new type carry their old typing with them. For example, Sylveon is a Fairy-type that evolves from Eevee so it now gains all Fairy moves and Normal moves.
    • Pokémon that change forme outside of battle may also transfer moves this way. For example, Shaymin is a Grass-type that changes forme with the Gracidea outside of battle into a Grass- and Flying-type. Since Shaymin-Sky can transform back into regular Shaymin, it can transfer its Flying moves to that forme.
    • For a complete list of evolution and forme type changes, see below.
    • Megas do not grant their new STABs to their base Pokemon! This is because Mega Evolution only takes place during battle when a Pokemon is unable to learn any moves. This is the same logic behind why Castform can't learn all Ice, Fire, and Water moves.

    +CLAUSES
    • Standard OU banlist
      • Bans: Sylveon and Porygon-Z.
      • Unbans: Darkrai, Deoxys-S, and Deoxys-D.
    • Sleep, OHKO, Species, Evasion, Moody, Swagger in effect
    • Sketch is banned except on Smeargle
    • No Gen jumping types (An example would be Togekiss keeping its Normal typing from Gen 5. Since I'm trying to keep things simple, I decided not to allow it.)

    +EXTRA
    Pokémon that change typing or lose a type during evolution:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Grass & Poison
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Ground, Steel, & Rock
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Steel, & Flying
    [​IMG]->[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] Corresponding type & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Water, Fairy, & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Rock, Dark, & Ground
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Flying, & Water
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Psychic, Fighting & Fairy
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Bug, Flying, & Ground or [​IMG] Bug, Ghost, & Ground
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Dragon, Flying, & Normal
    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Dark, Poison, & Bug
    [​IMG] -> [​IMG] Fire, Flying, & Normal

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Water, Poison, & Dragon


    Pokémon that change typing or lose a type during forme change:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]->[​IMG] Grass & Flying are interchangeable since forme change happens outside battle via the Gracidea.
    [​IMG] Although Rotom can change forme outside battle, it isn't allowed to transfer types between formes, except Ghost, because it forgets moves it can't learn when it returns to normal Rotom. For example, under normal circumstances, Rotom-Wash forgets Hydro Pump when it reverts back to Rotom.
    [​IMG] Kyurem can also change formes outside of battle, but it stays the same type when it changes, thus it can't carry over Fire and Electric moves from Reshiram and Zekrom respectively. And similar to Rotom, when the Kyurem formes separate with the DNA splicer, they forget their signature moves.

    The following Pokémon change only during battle and thus don't transfer types according to the rules of STABmons:
    Castform, Meloetta, Darmanitan, all Mega formes.



    +VIABILITY RANKING



    EDIT: Arcticblast was here, Birkal sux
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014 at 12:07 PM
    Snaquaza, Valmanway, ssneak and 11 others like this.
  2. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    **THREATLIST**
    (maintained by Unfixable )
    Hiya, all! This is a STABmons Threatlist where we, as a community, will go through each Pokemon and discuss why we think each Pokemon is threat in the current metagame. This format will be followed by the other current ones, with a lot of this tweaked by me, but made from other threads. If you don't know what a threatlist is, I'll explain it! It's basically a list of threats, in all honesty, and we compile brief paragraphs dissecting the Pokemon and all about it in the current metagame. Now that we know what a threatlist is, let's begin.

    Rules
    • You can reserve two Pokemon at a time. This is going to be standard, as we want everyone to contribute, not just you. So, please, only reserve two Pokemon, and no more.
    • You have one week to finish writing your entry after you reserve it. It's just a paragraph. If you don't get your entry done in this time, it will be reopened for reservation. This is to ensure everything gets done in a timely fashion.
    • Edit your reservation post with your completed post. I know other threatlist's have made you post it in a new post, but I prefer this method; it's easier for me to keep track of it all.
    • You must have good knowledge of the STABmons metagame in order to write these. Everything will be quality checked later, but if an entry shows lack of knowledge, it will be reassigned to a more competent writer. Don't stress about grammar, but try and follow the standards here. It's not a big deal at all should you slip up, but adhering to these standards makes it easier for everyone, especially the people who will be GP checking this later. If something is so bad in either of two ways (entry shows that writer has no metagame knowledge / grammatical errors are so bad they they intrude on the actual readability of it and it is at the point where it is too much for GP to correct), then I will give you one chance to edit it, and if it is still shockingly bad, then I'll remove your post from the conundrum and put it up for reservation, again.
    • If you don't see a Pokemon on the list that you think should receive an entry, feel free to post about it. I may have just forgotten something. For offensive threats, the requisite is that it be a relevant threat that you should be prepared for/don't want to be weak to. For defensive threats, the approach I took was pretty much 'you should be able to break this Pokemon'. For supportive threats, there isn't a concrete guideline, but I'm sure you will know if a Pokemon is good in STABmons from a supportive standpoint.
    • Note that Sylveon and Porygon-Z are banned, in case you have missed this, and should more bans occur to already written Pokemon, I will have to remove them; however, I'll keep them safe should the opportunity for them to be unbanned arise.
    Format

    Entries should follow this format:
    If a Hidden Ability isn't released, put (Unreleased) after the ability.

    Get your sprites from here. Do not put .gifs or 3D models from Serebii.

    General Writing Tips
    • Keep it concise. Nobody wants to read a dragged on paragraph, get to the point.
    • You are supposed to describe why these Pokemon are threats. The flaws don't illustrate how they are threats, so don't mention them. WHY is it threatening and HOW does it impact the metagame.
    • Don't be too descriptive. That might sound like a weird thing to say, but it's a major part of keeping things concise. You don't need to list every move a Pokemon uses in its threat list entry; if there are any ones vital to mention, talk about them, but a lot of things can be generalized as 'coverage' and 'STABs'. So, you don't need to say Mega Charizard Y has access to Oblivion Wing, Eruption, and Fiery Dance. What you CAN say is 'Mega Charizard Y can somewhat mitigate its Stealth Rock weakness thanks to Oblivion Wing', or something to that effect. Just make sure something is an important detail.
    The almighty Komodo quote:

    Reservation Index
    Pokemon will be separated into offensive, defensive, and supportive threats. This is not only to improve organization, but also to ensure there isn't an issue in cases such as Mega Venusaur where the Pokemon are suitable in more than one category. The entries will be entirely separate.

    Mega Evolutions will be handled as separate Pokemon so that these entries don't get too cluttered. If a non-MEvo isn't a threat, it will not receive an entry. The other reason for this is so that a new player doesn't look at this and immediately think something like Charizard is a threat because it has an entry.

    Offensive Threats (open)
    Aegislash
    Azumarill
    Bisharp
    Crawdaunt
    Deoxys-Speed
    Diggersby
    Dragonite
    Espeon
    Excadrill
    Garchomp
    Gardevoir
    Greninja
    Gyarados
    Keldeo
    Kyurem-Black
    Landorus
    Landorus-Therian
    Latias
    Latios
    Mega Charizard Y
    Mega Heracross
    Mega Mawile
    Mega Venusaur
    Meloetta – Completed by Unfixable
    Porygon2
    Scolipede
    Scizor
    Staraptor
    Stoutland – Reserved by Unfixable
    Thundurus
    Togekiss
    Tyranitar
    Ursaring
    Yanmega
    Defensive Threats (open)
    Bouffalant
    Chansey
    Ferrothorn
    Gliscor
    Gyarados
    Heatran
    Mandibuzz
    Landorus-Therian
    Rotom-Heat
    Rotom-Mow
    Rotom-Wash
    Sableye
    Skarmory
    Quagsire
    Supportive Threats (open)
    Ferrothorn
    Garchomp
    Mega Venusaur
    Sableye
    Scolipede
    Stoutland


    COMPLETED – OFFENSIVE (open)

    [​IMG]
    Azumarill
    Type: Water / Fairy
    Base Stats: 100 / 50 / 80 / 60 / 80 / 50
    Ability: Thick Fat / Huge Power / Sap Sipper
    Important move additions: Extreme Speed [from Azurill], Water Shuriken, Crabhammer

    Azumarill is a top threat in OU with Huge Power boosting his abysmal 50 Attack to levels rivalling that of Ubers giants such as Groudon. With STABmons, he not only gains improved versions of his common STAB moves Aqua Jet and Waterfall in the form of Water Shuriken and Crabhammer, he also gets access to the wide pool of Normal-type moves, courtesy of his baby form, the Normal-type Azurill. This opens up options such as Extreme Speed, which hits harder than Water Shuriken most of the time, while allowing Azumarill access to the +2 priority tier. Like in OU, Belly Drum Azumarill is a strong threat in the tier, as his access to Fairy type moves provides players with an alternative to options like Diggersby, despite his lack of STAB on Extreme Speed.

    [​IMG]
    Aerodactyl
    Type: Rock / Flying
    Base Stats: 80 / 105 / 65 / 60 / 75 / 130
    Ability: Rock Head / Pressure / Unnerve
    Important move additions: Brave Bird, Head Smash

    Aerodactyl is a Pokemon with big room for improvement. Rock Head, Pressure, and Unnerve all next to useful abilities. STABmons breaks Aerodactyl. Two new STAB moves, Brave Bird and Head Smash. Paired with Rock Head, Aerodactyl becomes a dual STAB spamming monster not taking any recoil. For perfect coverage, you can run Earthquake to nail Steel types. For even more power, you could Mega Evolve gaining a new Tough Claws ability. Brave Bird's base power becomes 156 before STAB, while Head Smash becomes 195 thanks to the huge boost of power.

    [​IMG]
    Braviary
    Type: Normal / Flying
    Base Stats: 100 / 123 / 75 / 57 / 75 / 80
    Ability: Keen Eye / Sheer Force / Defiant
    Important move additions: Belly Drum, Extreme Speed, Acrobatics, Fake Out

    Braviary has always been sort of overlooked in part to sub-par speed, Extreme Speed alleviates that. Superpower can break most things that wall the dual STABs, well most things not named Aegislash. Due to being completely walled by Aegislash this bird works well with Heatran or Diggersby. Acrobatics is a great way to hit hard without recoil, once the item of choice is used up. The biggest trick Braviary has up its sleeve is the ability Defiant! Which when switching into a parting shot will give it a free 2.5x attack boost, when an Intimidate user is brought into Braviary it gets a free 1.5x attack boost, and also notable is that when the random King's Shield is used to protect something from Braviary's onslaught it doesn't even phase this bird. I do believe Braviary is the only relevant pokemon with the Defiant ability, that has access to Extreme speed. Braviary has well above average base attack, allowing it to hit hard even without boosts. Treat it with the right support, prediction, and timing and you have a serious threat.


    [​IMG]
    Diggersby
    Type: Normal / Ground
    Base Stats: 85 / 56 / 77 / 50 / 77 / 78
    Ability: Pickup / Cheek Pouch / Huge Power
    Important move additions: Shell Smash, Extreme Speed, Belly Drum
    Diggersby is a huge threat in OU with amazing Ground / Normal coverage, and Huge Power giving it massive attack. STABmons gives it even more power. Shell Smash is an instant +2 in both Speed and Attack making him a fearsome sweeper. Also new, Extreme Speed. A priority move better than Quick Attack in power and speed. After a Shell Smash you can spam Returns and Earthquakes, as you'll only need to Extreme Speed in the case of threatening priority. Belly Drum is even a more fun move, maxing out power in one turn, and spamming Extreme Speeds. Something I tried was Cheek Pouch + Sitrus Berry, refilling all of your health after a Belly Drum.
    [​IMG]
    Flareon
    Type: Fire
    Base Stats: 65 / 130 / 60 / 95 / 110/ 65
    Ability: Flash Fire / Guts
    Important move additions: V-create, Fake Out, Extreme Speed

    Guts Flareon boasts the hardest hitting V-create in the meta, handily OHKOing almost anything it touches. He's also one of the only common non-Normal-typed users of the Fake Out / Extreme Speed combo, with Guts making up for his lack of STAB, and relying on Extreme Speed to mitigate the Speed drops from V-create. He also makes a great status absorber, either being immune due to Toxic Orb or running a Sleep Talk set.

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta
    Type: Normal / Psychic
    Base Stats: 100 / 77 / 77 / 128 / 128 / 90
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Important move additions: Boomburst, Shell Smash, Psystrike, Luster Purge

    Meloetta is a powerful Pokemon in the STABmons metagame with a high base 128 SpA, which is backed by a high SpD and a decent Speed stat. Meloetta has access to the most powerful Boomburst in the entire metagame, and it also has a secondary STAB move in Psystrike to blast through special walls such as Chansey, it also can use Luster Purge – which is guaranteed to lower the opponent's SpD courtesy of Serene Grace. Thanks to Meloetta's bulk, it has room to setup Shell Smash against some faster foes. Its typing also grants it an immunity to Ghost-types, which no other Psychic-type can boast.

    [​IMG]
    Stoutland
    Type: Normal
    Base Stats: 85 / 110 / 90 / 45 / 90 / 80
    Ability: Intimidate / Sand Rush / Scrappy
    Important move additions: Fake Out, Extreme Speed, Rapid Spin, Belly Drum

    Stoutland has the ability Scrappy, which allows it to hit Ghost-types with its STAB Normal-type moves, a unique niche only shared with Kangaskhan – of which it competes for best abuser of this ability. Stoutland is very great at checking setup sweepers thanks to this, as nothing is immune to its Normal-type STAB moves such as Fake Out and Extreme Speed. It can set up Belly Drum a bit more reliably than its Normal-type competitors. Stoutland's bulk is also above average, which allows it to take hits at times and set up Belly Drum easier. Stoutland can also run Rapid Spin effectively, allowing it to pack offensive potential and support its team simultaneously.

    [​IMG]
    Volcarona
    Type: Bug / Fire
    Base Stats: 85 / 60 / 65 / 135 / 105 / 100
    Ability: Swarm / Flame Body
    Important Move Additions: Tail Glow / Eruption / Blue Flare

    While Quiver Dance on Volcarona has always been threatening, Tail Glow allows it to easily serve as a wallbreaker that roasts most switch-ins. While 100 Base Speed is a letdown, Quiver Dance can be used to boost it to much higher speeds as well as further increasing its Special Attack and improving its usuable special bulk. Acces to Blue Flare and Eruption give it better Fire STABs that allow it more power than a mere Fire Blast. Its unique typing ( outside of Larvesta ) gives it access to Tail Glow as Blue Flare which should not be taken lightly, especially if it has gotten a speed boost. While it is incredibly powerful, it does need a turn to set up a Tail Glow, two if it wants to Quiver Dance. Therefore it needs team support. Giving set-up oppurtunities through moves like Encore and Spore as well as Baton Passing speed boosts is greatly appreciated to help it sweep. Of course, now that Magicarp gets Waterfall and Aqua Jet to add some priority and STAB to its arsenal, why bother with Volcarona? But if you need a wallbreaker with a lot of potential, Volcarona is the pokemon for you.

    COMPLETED – DEFENSIVE (open)

    [​IMG]
    Gourgeist – Super
    Type: Ghost / Grass
    Base Stats: 85 / 100 / 122 / 58 / 75 / 54
    Ability: Pickup / Frisk / Insomia
    Important Move Additions: Spore, Spiky Shield, Cotton Guard, Aromatherapy

    Necessity is the mother of invention, and in this tier a solid Diggersby check is surely a necessity. When combing through Gourgeist's excellent Ghost/ Grass movepool it is very hard to pick out just four additional moves that improve its viability. The four I chose seemed to be the most notable even though it has access to Power Whip for some hard hitting STAB action, Shadow Force to break through protect after the opponent's team is cleared of normal types, Synthesis for semi-reliable recovery; the options available make it worth more than a passing glance. This overlooked pokemon has excellent physical bulk and also is a relevant check to Bibarel. Not only is it a great wall for Extreme Speed abusers, it can also easily tank a hit and put whatever is hitting it to sleep. Spikey Shield is a good way to handle those physical attackers that just barely didn't faint from your last attack. Cotton Guard can really improve Gourgeist's longevity and if you want to go all out defensive Aromatherapy is a great choice to keep your team healed.

    [​IMG]
    Meloetta
    Type: Normal / Psychic
    Base Stats: 100 / 77 / 77 / 128 / 128 / 90
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Important move additions: Boomburst, Recover, Glare, Lovely Kiss

    Meloetta's newfound access to reliable recovery allows her to finally put her massive SpD to good use, capable of checking most of the metas special sweepers. Boomburst still hits ridiculously hard even uninvested, making her a great tank, while Glare and Lovely Kiss allow her to provide support, Glare often completely neutering the many speed boosters in the meta.

    COMPLETED – SUPPORT (open)



    **SUSPECTS DISCUSSION**
    Show Hide
    We all know STABmons is an offensive metagame, but sometimes that overwhelming offense makes the game less fun to play. As replays and hearsay will tell you, often you only need one Pokemon to setup at the right time in order to sweep the entire opponent's team. This usually leads to arms-race for the players to setup their win-conditions ASAP. Not only that, but teams are now stocked with 4, 5, or even all 6 setup sweepers so if one or two die, there are more waiting in the wings.

    Last gen we tried a limited normals clause that restricted Normal-types to using only 1 instance of extra Normal moves per Pokemon. As we know, Normal Pokemon, or the descendants of Normal Pokemon, are the majority of the problem in STABmons. However, even if we limited a Pokemon to only 1 new Normal-type move, that only tones down Pokemon individually but leaves the door open for players to continue to stock their teams with SS/BD/Espeed spam.

    Long explanation short, I'm going to start suspecting the biggest offenders in STABmons in an attempt to tone down the HO flavor the metagame has. Sure, some metas play more offensively than others, but as it stands, the game favors HO to the point where nothing else can flourish and 1 turn of setup can cinch the match. With that said, I now introduce the current round of suspects: n/a

    Results from last vote: Sylveon and Porygon-Z are banned.

    Show Hide
    If you are in favor of banning a suspect, please provide examples of why they are unhealthy for the metagame with replays, calcs, anecdotes explaining their over-centralization, lack of true checks/counters, etc.
    If you are not in favor of a ban, please provide the examples of how they are reliably checked/countered by other Pokemon that can still function well in STABmons.
    Discussions will last about a week. GL/HF


    The STABmons Council:
    Status: n/a
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014 at 12:07 PM
    Unfixable, simsims2800 and Redless like this.
  3. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Sun Worshiper
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Meleotta @ Fist plate / spooky plate
    Nature: Timid
    Evs: 252 satk / 252 spe / 4 hp
    - Shell Smash
    - Boomburst
    - Psystrike / judgement
    - Judgement / aura sphere

    Can't think of a better shell smash sweeper. Either Dual STAB with the ability to punch through stronger special walls, and a stronger fighting move, or perfect coverage that beats up on ghosts between aura sphere and ghost judgement
  4. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

    Joined:
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    Don't forget to put the rotom-forme exception in the OP (The one which Rotom-Wash can only learn electric, ghost, and water moves).

    Gonna shamelessly steal this set from the gen 5 thread now...
    Sylveon @ Earth Plate
    Ability: Pixillate
    Nature: Modest | Timid
    Evs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Shell Smash
    - Boomburst
    - Judgment
    - Psyshock

    This set does one thing well. Use Shell Smash, spam Pixillate-boosted STAB Boomburst, wreck face. Earth Plate Judgment is very good coverage, dealing with both of Sylveon's weaknesses. Psyshock is for anything really specially defensive.
  5. Uselesscrab

    Uselesscrab

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
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    372
    I think Huge Power Azumarill could be quite good with access to all Water, Fairy and Normal moves. Huge variety of attacking moves, Belly Drum ExtremeSpeed, a lot of different options.
  6. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    269
    Haven't used this yet but holy shit
    Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Gale Wings
    Nature: Adamant
    Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Belly Drum
    - Acrobatics
    - V-Create/Flare Blitz
    - Roost/Steel Wing

    Automatic Acrobatics activation with Belly Drum, spamming a 110 BP Priority move at +6. This thing is insane. Thank you Fletchling, for taking a top-tier threat and turning it into a 1-turn death machine.

    +6 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 378-445 (107.38 - 126.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +6 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 410-483 (113.25 - 133.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The rest of its "counters" are obliterated by Flare Blitz and Steel Wing.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  7. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

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    Does togekiss get gen5 normal moves? I feel like it should, even if it wouldn't get boomburst.
    sparktrain likes this.
  8. Captain Awesome

    Captain Awesome

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2007
    Messages:
    792
    What about for pokemon like Ampharos who gain a type when they Mega Evolve?

    EDIT: Don't forget that kirlia evolves into Gallade, so Gallade can use all Fairy-type moves.
  9. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

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    Captian Awesome, I would assume that because mega evolutions only happen in battle, like Melo-P, that they would not get MEvo moves.
  10. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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    I added Gallade. Going to add the formes too.
    TheBurgerKing99 , I decided not to Gen jump Togekiss's Normal typing. I want to keep it simple and avoid confusion with past gen type changes (this would affect the Clefable and Granbull lines, too, so they stay just Fairy, they don't get Fairy/Normal.) I feel like it's already enough to let pre-evolution types carry forward. Had Togepi been Normal/Fairy...
  11. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
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    Aww, gona miss my SS toge set. On the other hand we have

    Kangas
    [​IMG]

    Who can finally abuse his ability to the fullest. With moves like fake out, extreme speed, he's good. But he's better than that, as he gets two terrifying moves. with access to the moves Super Fang and Seismic Toss, he's capable of 2hkoing any non-ghost in the game. All of them. Along with this, he gets both crunch and sucker punch to handle ghosts, and ends up being the most terrifying wallbreaker ever, only coming close to being stopped by sableye.
    Zekrenzo and The Eevee General like this.
  12. SpartanMalice

    SpartanMalice

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    Uhm, Super Fang doesn't work like that. It first reduces your health to half of said health, and the second time it would do the same thing in theory (even then not KO'ing it, but bringing it to 25), but I tested it with either Adrian or ChampionSteve (I don't remember), and it didn't work with Parental Bond.

    And by the way, I thought Meloetta's form change was restricted to in-battle ?
  13. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

    Joined:
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    That's what I said, lol (about Melo). Also, it does bring it does bring it down to 25%, where seismic toss kills everything. It does 200 damage, which is more than 25% of every pokemon in the game, which lets it get a 2hko on every pokemon that's not a ghost type, through burn, through defense boosts (maybe cosmic power or bulk up), and almost anything else.

    Edit: I feel like you thought I meant that because parental bond works twice, that it's a 2hko on one turn. I meant two turns, as in, it uses super fang, and then seismic toss, which kills everything.
  14. The Reptile

    The Reptile Wonderful Wiggling Wyrms!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    BEEP BEEP BIG THREAT COMING TROUGH


    Talonflame @ Life Orb / Sharp Beak
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shell Smash / Sword Dance
    - Brave Bird
    - Sacred Fire / V-Create / Flare Blitz
    - Extreme Speed / Roost

    This is is pretty simple. Smash and kill everything. What separates Talonflame from other Shell Smasher is Gale Wing. Gale Wing lets Talonflame bypass other priority except for ESpeed, which can be bypass by its own ESpeed. Because of Gale Wings, Sableye has troubles dealing with him. If Talonflame gets a Smash off, Sableye dies to Sharp Beak / LO Brave Bird (+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 322-379 (105.92 - 124.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Sableye's best hope is to switch in on a +0 Brave Bird and bank on a really slim chance to live a 2HKO (252+ Atk Sharp Beak (custom) Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 160-190 (52.63 - 62.5%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO - Life Orb just 2HKO's straight up). Shell Smash isn't even necessary - Sword Dance is perfectly fine by itself. Sacred Fire is there as a reliable base 100 STAB with 50% chance to burn, which makes Talonflame bulkier than it looks along with the HP investment. V-Create at that speed, however, should be illegal. Also, unlike other Fire V-Create spammers, Talonflame has priority STAB to bypass the -1 Speed. Flare Blitz is stronger than Sacred Fire and doesn't drop your speed, but the recoil isn't good when your main STAB also gives you recoil. Extreme Speed is there to hurt other ESpeeders before they try and get cheeky and ESpeed you. However, if you don't mind that, you can use Roost instead. If Flying STAB isn't the reason why you want to use Talonflame, then you can run Max Atk / Max Spe instead to abuse the fact that holy shit that's a fast V-Create. The current EV spread lets you smack Jolly Excadrill with Fire STAB. Everything else you'd probably want to smash with a Brave Bird.

    Talonflame, however, has a terrible 4x SR weakness. Thankfully, Defog and better Rapid Spinners allowed make hazards have less of an impact in this gen, which is great for Talonflame.
  15. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

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    This Talonflame set is very similar to the one I posted, but considering that mine gets you to +6 with 75% HP and no recoil, I'd like to hear what advantages your set has besides being slightly easier to set up. (Also, thanks for reminding me to put other Fire-type options >_<)
  16. The Reptile

    The Reptile Wonderful Wiggling Wyrms!
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    I think the main difference between the SD/Smash set I posted and the Belly set you posted is that the BellyDrum set is a lot more riskier than a simple Smash set and has to BD to use its main STAB. Also, you're set definitely needs Extreme Speed, since +6 makes lack of STAB not that big of an issue. Meanwhile, it lets you beat other ESpeeders, since ESpeed has +2 priority thus out prioritizing anything by Gale Wings. This does mean you can't run Steel Wing, which helps vs Rock-types, but I think it's worth it. Another advantage is that if the SD / Smash set fails to sweep, it can switch out and try again. I won't say that one is better than the other (+6 Talonflame is VERY scary, and those calcs on Gliscor / Landorous-T is very impressive), but SD is much safer and reliable. It really just come downs to preference imo.

    EDIT: Also, while both are very weak to SR, BD is much more weaker to SR since SR eats up your berry at best and prevents you from setting up at all at worst
  17. Adrian Marin

    Adrian Marin

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    Super Fang actually works with Parental Bond now, so Mega Kanghaskhan is potentially broken since it destroys ghosts with Crunch and defeats the rest with Super Fang and Seismic Toss (Unless you count Sableye/Spiritomb.) I honestly think Boomburst Sylveon is unhealthy for the metagame, nothing truly walls it consistently.

    Sableye is so much better now, Parting Shot is what makes Sableye such a dangerous threat, just spam Parting Shot for all you care and watch offense crumble! Even in Balanced Hackmons, Parting Shot is very powerful, some offensive players had to change the way they play just to cope with Parting Shot. Topsy Turvy is better known, but Substitute may be problematic for it. I use a set of:

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Topsy-turvy
    - Parting Shot
    - Destiny Bond
    - Recover

    This set is pretty standard in BH (Except that it has all the ways of dealing with threats mashed into one.) Sableye doesn't even need sleep now, it's actually a really good lead with Parting Shot and can stop sweepers in their tracks with Topsy Turvy. One can truly abuse Sableye by using Volt-Turn to constantly stay ahead of offense. Volt-Turn-Parting-Baton Stall actually works really well in BH, it also works amazingly in here.
  18. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    Going back to last gen's discussion about Rotom, do you think it's still necessary to prohibit the formes transferring STABs? What consequences would this have? Would it make any of the formes too powerful? (More powerful than already huge threats like Sylveon, Talonflame, etc?)

    I'm thinking Rotom-W is probably the happiest with stuff like Hydro Pump/Surf, Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Ice Beam, Hurricane, Spore, potentially Roost, too. If we can allow out of battle forme changes like Shaymin to pass its STABs, why not Rotom?
    Hollywood likes this.
  19. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

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    Because it gets all fire, water, grass, ice, flying, electric, and ghost moves. Which is insane.
  20. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    But that still doesn't give it any good setup moves. It's still just a somewhat bulky special attacker now with a much larger movepool. I mean, Shell Smash Espeon is insane. Boomburst Sylveon is insane. Adaptability Porygon-Z with Boomburst is insane. I guess I don't see Rotom breaking the metagame anytime soon if it had access to its other formes' STABs.
  21. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

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    It's your meta, I say no, but it's up to you.
  22. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun

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    Get a Hydro Pump Rotom-Fan in X/Y legit then come back to me on that.
    It's not possible. The second you convert the forme back to another forme, the moves that it and only it got were deleted, which is why you don't see things like scarf Rotom-W running Overheat for coverage. My personal opinion is no for that reason, but do whatever you feel like.
  23. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    For the reason Pikachuun stated I'll keep Rotom as is. Works for me.
  24. asterat

    asterat

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    So I know that STABmons is a very offensive metagame, and that's ok, but I think some bans should happen because some pokemon are ridiculous. Mega Kangashkhan is likely to go uber soon, and if you give it extremespeed and power up punch it should have gone there when it was released in January. That's it for now but it should definitely go, right now.
  25. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General How to EV train your Dragon
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    I'd like to see some more evidence honestly. Has anyone tested MegaKhan in STABmons yet? Any reliable counters or checks? I'm not saying I don't believe you Asterat, but I'm just hesitant to start banning so quickly. I mean, there isn't even a Gen 6 ladder yet.

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