All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)

[Lukethehedgehog]

"Fire- and Dark-type attacks were rare too, and she could easily survive an Ice Beam from most Pokémon. The only attacks that had a shot at beating Celebi were HP Flying from Dragonite and Drill Peck from Dodrio."

Nobody uses either HP Flying on Dragonite nor Dodrio at all, lol

Celebi fears Forretress and a lot of things with Hidden Power Bug.

Neither Choice Specs nor Choice Scarf existed in Generation III. You should clarify when you're talking about the referenced generation and when you're talking about the current generation. The list of counters is also suspicious because some don't exist in gen 3, others aren't counters in gen 6.

Swagger was introduced in Generation 2, not 3.

After that it gets too long for me to read, but you need to work on the structure

I took my info from here, and it didn't say that about HP Flying or Drill Peck being unused, nor about Forretress. And what Pokémon should I mention with HP Bug?

I didn't write the entire page, btw, but it seems it refers to Game Breakers across the Gens, and that's why it mentions Scarf and Specs.

Also, could you please answer my questions?

 

[Isa]

I would answer if I knew the answers, but alas. My knowledge is primarily within the first two generations.

Things that use HP Bug in Gen 2: Marowak, Forretress, Machamp, you can add it to a few things if you feel like preventing Celebi from coming in for free like Snorlax (not really recommended though).

Also I remembered regarding Celebi, Houndoom is a thing when Celebi is legal. You can toast it a bit with Fire Blast or Crunch and snipe it on the switch with Pursuit.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

I would answer if I knew the answers, but alas. My knowledge is primarily within the first two generations.

Things that use HP Bug in Gen 2: Marowak, Forretress, Machamp, you can add it to a few things if you feel like preventing Celebi from coming in for free like Snorlax (not really recommended though).

Also I remembered regarding Celebi, Houndoom is a thing when Celebi is legal. You can toast it a bit with Fire Blast or Crunch and snipe it on the switch with Pursuit.

"It was so bad, some people had to force HP Bug on some Pokémon to prevent her from coming in for free."

Is this good?

I may also add that I read some people used Baton Pass on Celebi for the purpose of escaping Pursuit.

This is the full entry:

"Celebi, Similar to Mew, is extremely bulky, and could learn moves such as Leech Seed, Recover or Heal Bell, meaning it just wouldn't die. Even though one would think having 7 weaknesses (One of them double) would balance it. However, Bug-type attacks were pretty rare (The only users was Heracross, which is weak to Psychic 'and' is outsped by Celebi, and Forretress), Ghost were nonexistent, and Poison was weak to Psychic. Fire- and Dark-type attacks were rare too (Only used by Houndoom, and Celebi could learn Baton Pass to prevent Houndoom from Pursuit-trapping her), and she could easily survive an Ice Beam from most Pokémon. The only attacks that had a shot at beating Celebi were HP Flying from Dragonite and Drill Peck from Dodrio (Which weren't used at all). This basically meant that Celebi could switch in on anything, force it out, and then switch again almost unharmed. It was so bad, some people had to force HP Bug on some Pokémon to prevent her from coming in for free."

 

[Isa]

Looks good. I'm not sure how relevant Baton Pass is - when I played in the GSCelebi tour here a few months ago, I didn't see anyone use it and the strongest Pursuit in the game still doesn't deal over 50% on a switch, so I don't think it's necessary. You can keep it if you wish though. Good writeup!

 

[BKC]

What made the Latis Uber in Gen ... IV?

ridiculously good resistances with fantastic typing to boot, solid bulk, amazing speed tier, ridiculous power. I personally don't think latias was broken but there's no denying it was incredibly good. never played with latios but its extra power would really push it over the edge. both of them turn most special attackers into an invitation to drop a specs draco meteor on something. it was also ridiculously easy to run super solid semi-stalls with an amazing defensive core and tons of offensive pressure in the latias era.

What made Salamence Uber in Gen IV?

here's what happens when salamence comes in, not at all hard to do with its good resists, intimidate and iconic base 100 speed. you have to guess whether it's dd or mix mence. guess wrong? you lose a pokemon to the mix set (sending swampert/hippo/skarm in expecting dd, which still brutalizes them i should add) or get swept by/lose 2 pokemon to the dder (switching scarftar in expecting draco meteor). guess right? you "only" take a brutal amount of damage and still maybe even lose a pokemon since draco meteor is so absurdly powerful, even if you predict it and send in your scarf rachi/ttar/heatran you still get smoked, not to mention a fire blast/earthquake or brick break on the switch and they're toast. base 100 speed was huge, it meant that scarf gon/jira could only hope to tie it and scarf tran stood no chance. it's why dragonite isn't nearly as dangerous, it's less powerful on both sides of the spectrum and much slower, i cannot stress enough how important that last part is. speed kills.

oh and i haven't even mentioned the bulky dd set which turned everyone's favorite revenge killer for it, cb scizor, into setup fodder.

What made the Tornadus-T, Thundurus and Landorus Uber in Gen V?

tornadus-t was absurdly fast, beating out scarftar, and had regenerator + u-turn to chip away at its checks (and taunt to prevent them from healing if it so desired). thundurus wasn't quite as fast but beating out lati@s was huge, the nasty plot set was incredibly dangerous, and prankster thunder wave is cancer on everything. landorus was straddling broken territory with the power of its sand force sets in bw1 but sheer force really pushed it over the edge since it was dishing out hits from what was effectively base 170 special attack or something equally ridiculous, when I first saw how much earth power was doing to things I and several others jumped. it took very little support for it to dismantle things; u-turn smashed all its checks in conjunction with pursuit and rock polish swept offense easily, sometimes the two were even used on the same set.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

ridiculously good resistances with fantastic typing to boot, solid bulk, amazing speed tier, ridiculous power. I personally don't think latias was broken but there's no denying it was incredibly good. never played with latios but its extra power would really push it over the edge. both of them turn most special attackers into an invitation to drop a specs draco meteor on something. it was also ridiculously easy to run super solid semi-stalls with an amazing defensive core and tons of offensive pressure in the latias era.

here's what happens when salamence comes in, not at all hard to do with its good resists, intimidate and iconic base 100 speed. you have to guess whether it's dd or mix mence. guess wrong? you lose a pokemon to the mix set (sending swampert/hippo/skarm in expecting dd, which still brutalizes them i should add) or get swept by/lose 2 pokemon to the dder (switching scarftar in expecting draco meteor). guess right? you "only" take a brutal amount of damage and still maybe even lose a pokemon since draco meteor is so absurdly powerful, even if you predict it and send in your scarf rachi/ttar/heatran you still get smoked, not to mention a fire blast/earthquake or brick break on the switch and they're toast. base 100 speed was huge, it meant that scarf gon/jira could only hope to tie it and scarf tran stood no chance. it's why dragonite isn't nearly as dangerous, it's less powerful on both sides of the spectrum and much slower, i cannot stress enough how important that last part is. speed kills.

oh and i haven't even mentioned the bulky dd set which turned everyone's favorite revenge killer for it, cb scizor, into setup fodder.



tornadus-t was absurdly fast, beating out scarftar, and had regenerator + u-turn to chip away at its checks (and taunt to prevent them from healing if it so desired). thundurus wasn't quite as fast but beating out lati@s was huge, the nasty plot set was incredibly dangerous, and prankster thunder wave is cancer on everything. landorus was straddling broken territory with the power of its sand force sets in bw1 but sheer force really pushed it over the edge since it was dishing out hits from what was effectively base 170 special attack or something equally ridiculous, when I first saw how much earth power was doing to things I and several others jumped. it took very little support for it to dismantle things; u-turn smashed all its checks in conjunction with pursuit and rock polish swept offense easily, sometimes the two were even used on the same set.

What about Manaphy?

 

[Luckstard.]

Not sure for Gen IV, but it's probably due to its good speed tiers (offensive TG set) and/or good bulk (CM set) for the tiers. And it's not mentionning its great Water/Ice/Grass coverage.

In Gen V, you add permarain bring by Politoed to make a cancerous mon for the meta.

 

[Karxrida]

What about Manaphy?

Perma-Rain made HydroRest stupidly hard to kill, plus it could set up super quickly and nuke everything with Rain-boosted Scald/Surf.

 

[trc]

apparently from what i've heard of bw there's an unspoken role of specific playstyles beating other playstyles, but i have no idea what does what o_o can someone tell me what playstyles generally have a great time vs other playstyles, and maybe a bit on why, or what pokemon have an advantage vs other playstyles (i hear hydreigon vs sand balance for example)

 

[Jirachee]

apparently from what i've heard of bw there's an unspoken role of specific playstyles beating other playstyles, but i have no idea what does what o_o can someone tell me what playstyles generally have a great time vs other playstyles, and maybe a bit on why, or what pokemon have an advantage vs other playstyles (i hear hydreigon vs sand balance for example)

This is true to an extent but also greatly exaggerated by the people who hate BW. There's no playstyle that always beats another because you can always adapt those playstyles to fare better against there nemesis (for example, Sun Offense usually destroys weatherless teams, but those can throw in a Scarf Heatran which is the bane of Sun's existence and have a pretty fair match up)

Anyway, weatherless playstyles usually have trouble against Sun and Rain. Not being able to wipe out the advantage the other team had in mind when building means everything on your team is gonna have a hard time handling abusers, so you better have solid answers. Venusaur, Choice Specs Politoed, and Choice Scarf Keldeo (in rain) are the biggest threats to weatherless teams, in my opinion. The first is just unbelievably fast and strong and has Sleep Powder. Specs Politoed is one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier and without proper switch ins, Hydro Pump is going to kill something (hence why you see so many Water immune pokes running around), and Scarf Keldy in rain is kind of reminiscent of Swift Swim Pokemon, with unbelievable power and speed.

Oddly enough Rain teams really hate facing Sun teams, even if Politoed has the "advantage" over Ninetales. The truth is, Ninetales doesn't really mind non-Specs Politoed's Water attacks in Sun so it can switch in pretty easily. Venusaur also gives those teams the D and they hate having their weather dissipated. Offensive rains usually hate facing bulky Sand teams, because they carry Water immunities and Tyranitar or Hippowdon that can remove their weather. Speaking of which, Sun teams aren't good against Hippo either! They can't trap it with Dugtrio and usually are low on Ground resists, so it can be threatening.

Bulky Sand teams usually hate facing the strongest Pokemon in the tier, like Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, and SD Terrakion. They also hate facing Volcarona in particular. Typically those teams are slower than average, so most strong wallbreakers will do a lot of work. Offensive Sand teams usually have similar match ups as the weatherless ones (ie, weakness to Weather in general), but less exaggerated thanks to Tyranitar's ability to clean weathers.

There's a whole lot more to it though! BW's team archetype metagame is very complicated and I can't really keep it in a concise post but hopefully this helps you understand the basics.

 

[Dre89]

I've been away for awhile but I've heard people mention new mechanic changes for RBY. If someone could explain them to me that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jellicent]

I've been away for awhile but I've heard people mention new mechanic changes for RBY. If someone could explain them to me that would be greatly appreciated.

Attacks with a secondary paralysis effect won't paralyze Pokemon of the same type. Most notably, Normal-types aren't paralyzed by Body Slam. Also, Electrics aren't paralyzed by Thunderbolt, etc. Moves that only paralyze (Thunder Wave, Stun Spore) work the same still.

Also, if you use a stat-modifying move (Agility, Amnesia, etc.) while your opponent is paralyzed, their Speed will be quartered again. Similarly, if they're burned, their Attack will be halved again.

 

[Dre89]

Attacks with a secondary paralysis effect won't paralyze Pokemon of the same type. Most notably, Normal-types aren't paralyzed by Body Slam. Also, Electrics aren't paralyzed by Thunderbolt, etc. Moves that only paralyze (Thunder Wave, Stun Spore) work the same still.

Also, if you use a stat-modifying move (Agility, Amnesia, etc.) while your opponent is paralyzed, their Speed will be quartered again. Similarly, if they're burned, their Attack will be halved again.

I'm guessing that's just gen6 mechanics overlapping into past gens. Any idea if/when this will be fixed?

 

[Jellicent]

I'm guessing that's just gen6 mechanics overlapping into past gens. Any idea if/when this will be fixed?

No, like, that's actually in the code. Crystal_ found it. The first is the same mechanic that stops Ice-types from being frozen and Fire-types from being burned. It's the simulators that had it wrong for all these years X_X

 

[Dre89]

No, like, that's actually in the code. Crystal_ found it. The first is the same mechanic that stops Ice-types from being frozen and Fire-types from being burned. It's the simulators that had it wrong for all these years X_X

Lol wow

Do these mechanics apply to Stadium too?

 

[Golden Gyarados]

The other change is if you use a sleep move before Hyper Beam recharge status wears off, the sleep move is guaranteed to hit AND will replace existing statuses. Example: if a paralyzed Tauros uses Hyper Beam, and you predict switch into your full health Exeggutor, and you use sleep powder while Tauros is recharging, Tauros will go to sleep. Eggy has to be faster, but that's possible if A) Eggy isn't paralyzed or B) Tauros's speed dropped more while in paralysis as a result of someone using Amnesia, Harden, etc.

 

[lilyhollow]

So is Bug neutral against Ghost, or NVE? Smogon and Bulbapedia are in disagreement on this, and it seems like an easy thing to get wrong since basically no bug type attacks actually matter.

 

[Isa]

Ghost resists Bug even in RBY.

 

[lilyhollow]

Okay cool. I think that's implemented incorrectly in showdown then.

 

[hard]

How is stat experienced handled in teambuilding for RBY and GSC on PS?
I would guess that it gets auto-maxed, is that right?

 

[Bedschibaer]

Yes that is right, alternatively you can max it all out manually but it's arbitrary

 

[hard]

and how do I avoid maxing stats then, for example to avoid going above the 999 limit (this only exists in GSC and RBY if I remember right?)
(edit your post if you want to enjoy your 666 for a bit)

 

[Jellicent]

Just PMed this to you a minute ago hard, but might as well re-post here for anyone else wondering:

How DVs work on PS:
By default, I set all DVs to 15.
If you input custom IVs on the PS teambuilder, I divide them by 2 and floor them, making them 0-15.
If you have a Hidden Power, I enforce all the DVs to the best case scenario for that Hidden Power.
If you have SD Marowak with Thick Club, I will force its Attack DV to 13 even if it isn't using Hidden Power Bug.
If you for some reason used a shiny, I will respect your decision to use a bad Pokémon, set all DVs to 10 and DV attack to 15 or 11 if you have SD Marowak.
I will then calculate the gender upon your attack DVs.
Last but not least, I calculate the HP DV.

So, if you don't want to max a certain stat, put in a number <30, keeping in mind it will be divided by 2 when calculating the actual DV.

 

[hard]

Thanks Jellicent that is very helpful and exactly what I was searching for(like half an hour actually)!

 

[froggy25]

afaik Marowak Attack DV is automatically reduced to avoid the overflow glitch after a SD, so you do not need to touch it.