I think you mean jump kick as sawsbuck only gets jump kick
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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
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xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
where ever did conviction come in? I never said anything about this is what I believe. I said multiple times that this is a very realistic possibility that can't be ignored, whether we like it or not. God I had to say it an infinite number of times in the OM chat so people wouldn't point fingers at me, but apparently you missed the memo.
The point isn't that diggersby beats stall, the point is that not being able to slap it on offensive teams makes offensive building much more restrictive, and as a result, less diverse (besides those running a suicide lead and 5 setup sweepers or something). Less offensive diversity = easier stalling. I don't see how this is hard to understand.
The theory is this: There are 3 groups in the post-diggersby meta, each having similar numbers of players (besides the low ladder people).
1. Super HO: A weird archetype that will stack setup sweepers and blanket revenge killers, as well as hazard stackers, to attempt to plow over most other teams through unpredictability and overwhelming force.
2. Bulky Offense: This archetype is the one Lcass mentioned, and it will have more bulky attackers and maybe even defensive backbones while still hitting hard.
3. Stall: ...
The problem is the way the 3 interact that makes stall get way better. Super HO restricts Bulky Offense because the bulky team has to find a RELIABLE way to check those sweepers; they need a good matchup to not get overpowered. Meanwhile Stall teams get a boon from the restriction on bulky offense; packing stallbreakers doesn't work. Super HO could overpower some stall, but because most stall teams have blanket checks to mons like talonflame, it is a lot less restricting on them than it is on BO. BO can no longer pack as many stallbreakers or be unpredictable because certain roles are required to be filled (teams could need x type of mon) in order to check all the powerful mons. Stall teams have less stallbreakers to worry about, and is also the easier way to handle the Super HO teams; therefore stall becomes easier to run.
Something of note is right now there is room for creativity on good teams. Creativity meaning we can find good ideas and slap them on teams even if they don't serve a specific role for the team. The problem is offensive creativity only would work on Super HO in this post-diggersby meta, since BO is restricted and each mon has to fiill a certain role; i.e. you couldn't win with 5 mons if said good idea has a bad matchup. This means a post-diggersby meta would have less room for creativity on better, more efficient teams.
While there are options for mons that can beat stall teams but are held back right now, these mons may be hard to fit on offensive teams. Pagoose has an idea with that, but we will see; it all depends on how much restriction appears in bulky offense.
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I'm not exactly sure what this nonsense is about stall getting better with Diggersby gone. Diggersby holds set up back right? So if diggers goes and the whole meta turns into whoever Belly Drums first, (Which from what we saw from the Suspect Tour is furthest from the truth,) then stall gets even less viable. Why is everyone so afraid of stall anyway? I'm not even sure how stall copes in the Stabmons meta with the amount of set up. Insanelegend's stall team runs both viable unawares.
I just don't understand why this pointless argument is getting brought up. Whether or not Diggers gone makes stall better is 100% irrelevent to this suspect. Diggers is overcentralzing and blatantly broken, able to easily change coverage to beat whatever checks it chooses to. The coverage given to it by the ORAS move tutors makes it way too good for the meta. It needs to go.
Stabmons is a very centralized meta that is true. But does Diggersby somehow promote diversity? Absolutely not. And having to actually wrack your brains and think during teambuilding is actually a good thing, unlike what xJownage clearly implies here. Being able to slap on a Pokemon onto any team and have it preform exceptionally well is a very bad thing for the meta. 2 Diggersby checks are almost a most on every team or else it will murder you. And i'm expected to believe this is somehow healthy for the metagame?
I just don't understand why this pointless argument is getting brought up. Whether or not Diggers gone makes stall better is 100% irrelevent to this suspect. Diggers is overcentralzing and blatantly broken, able to easily change coverage to beat whatever checks it chooses to. The coverage given to it by the ORAS move tutors makes it way too good for the meta. It needs to go.
EV
Banned deucer.
We just had another suspect tour in the OM room (this wasn't planned, just on a whim) and here are two of my replays:
This is me vs Lcass4919
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-218985786
This is the finals, me vs Mariode
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-218991029
Say what you will about my opponent's teams, or mine, and the matchups, etc but I think this demonstrates how bulky offense and support (my preferred style) fares right now. In fact, this was a team of mine I built a while ago (month and a half or more) that accounts for Diggersby but also setup in general. And I'm not even running priority!!
This is my second suspect tour win without Diggersby. I think I'm going to like it! (Actually I'm not that conceited, I know my team is pretty weak to a lot of things right now.)
This is me vs Lcass4919
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-218985786
This is the finals, me vs Mariode
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-218991029
Say what you will about my opponent's teams, or mine, and the matchups, etc but I think this demonstrates how bulky offense and support (my preferred style) fares right now. In fact, this was a team of mine I built a while ago (month and a half or more) that accounts for Diggersby but also setup in general. And I'm not even running priority!!
This is my second suspect tour win without Diggersby. I think I'm going to like it! (Actually I'm not that conceited, I know my team is pretty weak to a lot of things right now.)
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
By not being able to slap it on offensive teams and call it a blanket check for 80% of setup sweepers overall, offensive teams become less diverse because they have to resort to less reliable methods of checking such threats. Again, I don't think this is so hard to understand. This isn't factual, but is a very real possibility. I will agree to disagree because I am sick of hashing out the same thing.
Fuck it. Ban It. I can run my BD cincinno and SS pyroar (even though it sucks) in peace.
I know you're just throwing shit out in frustration but both braviary and ursaring fakespeed RK those.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
aka instead of using Diggers, which basically outclasses other fakespeeders, people have to look for alternatives and experiment with new things.
...that is literally promoting diversity.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
random ass example off the top of my head because i don't want to talk about this anymore. Braviary is much less powerful and Ursaring is made of wet tissue paper and is inherently hard to keep alive.
restriction means they don't have extra teamslots because said diverse mons have to fill specific roles, otherwise the team has trouble handling specific threats. If we can't use diggersby, maybe we have to use ursaring, lant, and something else, for example, or something that fills those roles. Not stating we have to use those mons, but its an example of how this one mon makes it easier to counter everything and not having it COULD require more teamslots.
You mean like diggersby requiring opponents to devote multiple teamslots to deal with it?
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
but it doesn't, so...
Say hi to defensive lant / scizor / balloon aegislash / etc. Bopped by different coverage but whatever, we aren't running multiple checks on bulky offense atm anyways.
carrying on from Eevee General's wall of calcs and a discussion in the viability ranking thread, will posit Flareon as a viable alternative FakeSpeeder and the only one of few non-normal typed ones, owing to its unmatched wall breaking power
edit: forgot about azu and tflame, missed any mention amid the diggersby arguments
edit: forgot about azu and tflame, missed any mention amid the diggersby arguments
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As The Reptile mentioned, Azumarill can FakeSpeed. Talonflame can FakeBird (lel). I understand that Flareon nukes with V-Create, but Toxic damage eventually catches up. If a FakeSpeeder needs anything, it's longevity.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
So me and lcass had an adventure in stabmons NU frontier today
First I beat him but nobody saved replay
Then I rematched him and came painfully close to winning (in yet another haxy battle) but lost by about 6% (basculin killed me by about that much)
Then I rematched him again, 5 hit pin missled his lead, and never looked back on my way to a quick win: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-219064617
GGs. Stabmons NU is fun af too.
First I beat him but nobody saved replay
Then I rematched him and came painfully close to winning (in yet another haxy battle) but lost by about 6% (basculin killed me by about that much)
Then I rematched him again, 5 hit pin missled his lead, and never looked back on my way to a quick win: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-219064617
GGs. Stabmons NU is fun af too.
I'm sure you have to wait at least 24 hours before challenging the Frontier, according to the old rule.
Eevee General Is this still active? If so, you should probably cut-paste Unf's post in the new Frontier post.
Never mind, the rules still state that. The Brains should probably read the rules first lel.
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Lost to DarkeKnight. I played really badly and he played well, gg.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-219071220
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-219071220
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Protip: Shadow Force is a move that is better than Phantom Force in every way besides PP
EV
Banned deucer.
I can add Flareon, Azumarill, Talonflame, and other 1-2 revengers once I finish the current list. However, I fear that Flareon is just not up to snuff, since FakeSpeeders often switch in and out a lot, so the Guts and SR damage is gonna drastically reduce any utility it has in the long run. This is also true of Talonflame due to that horribly SR weakness, but it does find time to recover if needed.
insanelegend was going to assemble a guide with the "best" attacks for each type with variations depending on necessity, e.g. Psystrike is always better than Psyshock, but Stored Power can be used for Psychic-type Shell Smashers to deal huge amounts of damage. You still working on that, bud?
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
@ 9:34 tuesday.
1:34 am thursday.
Definitely more than a day, so yeah. Even though it didn't seem like it. TBH I want to play this tier all day.
I think (s)he meant that it's one frontier battle every 24 hours. As in only the first battle would be counted.
Oh my god, that's the second time I've used Phantom Force instead of Shadow Force, GDI. Thanks.
Won against insanelegend: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-219177008
Also, in case he forgets, the only bans in STABmons UU are the Pokemon listed here, not all BL/OU+ Pokemon as I thought: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-oms-mega-thread.3517784/
Also, in case he forgets, the only bans in STABmons UU are the Pokemon listed here, not all BL/OU+ Pokemon as I thought: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-oms-mega-thread.3517784/
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
the battles were more than 24 hours apart, so I don't understand what you are saying. I won well after 24 hours had passed.
I'm talking about the three battles on Thursday, not the one on Tuesday.
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