Poliwrath [QC 1/3]

QC: 1/3 boltsandbombers
GP: 0/2


Overview
########
+great typing: 7 resists, 5 weakness
+good dual STAB for offensive sets
+good bulk
+ability to check top tier threats like Malamar, Sneasel, Swords Dance Samurott and Rhydon
+good versatility (the ability to run both a defensive set and an offensive one means its very difficult to predict)



-move pool can be limiting at times
-has no reliable recovery (has to rely on restalk recovery)
-difficult to fit into teams as typing clashes with other Pokemon that you may want to include
-checked by common grass type, psychic type and electric type threats



Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Circle Throw
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
ability:Water Absorb
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Relaxed

Moves
========

-Circle throw to phaze out the things it walls courtesy of its fantastic typing, like sd samurott, rather than let it continue to settup to a high amount of attack and possibly beat you. It also likes circle throw as a way of preventing Pokemon who are trying to settup on you from sweeping your team. This is also a way for Poliwrath to rack up hazard damage on other sweeper's checks and as a result making them more threatening in the late game.
-Scald is another way of getting residual damage on the opponents team. Not only is it a reliable 80 BP stab boosted move, but a way of weakening your opponents physical sweepers should you be lucky enough to get a burn
-Rest + Sleep Talk are the main way you keep yourself healthy from physical opposition wearing you down. Rest restores your HP and Sleep Talk lets you not be settup fodder for sweepers that try and come in

Set Details
========

-Max Defense and HP to sponge hits from Physical sweepers better, e.g. samurott, carracosta and malamar
-Leftovers so you have consistent recovery throughout the time you have it
-Relaxed Nature since this is primarily a physical wall, the reduction in speed is not relevant considering on the other hand you get a much more powerful and effective stab move or phazing move.

Usage Tips
========

-When using this Poliwrath set, you should constantly looking for stuff it can switch on into so that it can start to phaze or spam scald
-Poliwrath is used not only as a walling device, but an annoyer for your team to the other team. By spamming scald, getting burns, then circle throwing, you are maximising the residual damage your are doing to the opponents team and as a result making it easier for your own win-conditions to clean in the mid-late game
-Be wary of the likes of Samurott, as you dont often know what set they are (in regards to physical or special) so be sure to switch in appropriately once this is determined


Team Options
========

Hazard Stack: Entry hazard setters such as ferroseed pair well with poliwrath to increase the residual damage racked up on the opposing team with the use of circle throw.
In addition, there are other spikes setters that can be added apart from ferroseed, such as weezing, roselia, and garbodor. While they don't have the best of synergy, they're still solid teammates.

Steel Types: Help wall stuff that otherwise checks it, like Flying Mons, Psychic Mons and Fairy Mons. Steel-types such as Mawile and Klinklang help with psychic, flying, and fairy-types such as Togetic and Granbull which threaten poliwrath with their fairy stab

Specially Defensive Walls: allows for poliwrath to have another option when being threatened by the likes of Swanna. Pokemon like Audino can tank hits on the special side that would otherwise threaten Poliwrath, like assorted thunderbolts, giga drains and air slashes.


Special Attacker
########
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Scald / Hydro Pump
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Vacuum Wave
ability: Water Absorb
item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
evs: 96 HP / 252 SpA / 160 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

-Scald allows poliwrath to get burns on its checks, allowing them to be worn down quicker. -Hydro Pump offers instant power however you sacrifice a degree of accuracy.
-Focus Blast as your secondary STAB coverage move. It acts as your high power coverage move if you would like to rid of pokemon that otherwise annoy Poliwrath such as Samurott and more so Malamar. Poliwrath with a modest nature 2hkoes Malamar after rocks with Focus Blast. It 2HKOes Physically Defensive Seismitoad and OHKOes Ferroseed also if Physically Defensive.
-Ice Beam is used as Poliwrath's coverage move. It allows Poliwrath to get a lot of damage on its main checks and counters like Vileplume, which is 2hkoed by a modest ice beam after rocks. It gives Poliwrath an extremely viable avenue of getting damage on Grass Type Checks. Grass types like Gourgeist, Leafeon, and Tangela that would normally check Poliwrath.
-Vacuum Wave forms Poliwrath's main access to priority, and signifies the only viable access to special priority in the tier. This often means Poliwrath can get more damage on mixed attackers as opposed to its physical counter parts. Vacuum Wave is generally used to pick off tauros, sneasel, cacturne and pyroar.
-Subsitute is used to help Poliwrath avoid status and as a result even more residual damage, it also means that it can substiute on the Pokemon it counters (for example Sneasel) and proceed to not need to predict a switch in.

Set Details
========

-Life orb gives a significant boost to poliwraths attacks and helps patch up its lackluster base special attack. This is also why a Modest nature is preferred as well as a life orb as its item. This will also allow the power of vacuum wave to be increased as to revenge kill targets easier, and overall boost Poliwrath's cleaning ability.
-160 Speed is where the majority of the investment goes. This means that there is less pressure to use vacuum wave and instead go for its more powerful and stronger stab moves in hydro pump/scald and focus blast more of the time. As opposed to investing in HP, where you are only limiting damage taken from priority. 160 Speed specifically allows you to outspeed modest aurorus, rampardos, and adamant torterra as well as several neutral speed threats like exeggutor, cacturne and golurk.
-the leftover 90 EVs are invested in HP. This is so Poliwrath's is slightly bulkier and as a result can have more longevity as it can check threats at a lower HP.

Usage Tips
========

-Switch in Poliwrath on one something that it checks (e.g a SD Samurott or a Sneasel). Only do this if you predict the opposing pokemon to settup, do not switch Poliwrath directly on a Pokemon that has already settup as its bulk isn't as impressive as it was with max HP and Defenses investment.
-Once safely brought in on the Pokemon it checks, use a desired move. Most of the time it will be Scald as to run the lottery of a free burn or not on one of Poliwrath's checks or counters.
-If it is obvious the opponent is staying in and there is no room for prediction, go for your more effective move. In many cases this is Focus Blast. However, be aware that Focus Blast often misses so should be avoided unless absolutely neccesary.
-Poliwrath can also be used to revenge kill targets or even clean up in the late game courtesy of its special based priority in Vacuum Wave.


Team Options
========

Spikes Support: Most of Poliwrath's checks do not enjoy being burned, or taking residual damage. By adding the element of Spikes, Poliwrath can enjoy a much easier late game putting less pressure on its base 75 Special Attack and relatively weak 40 BP priority. Overall it not only helps Poliwrath clean in the late game but allows Poliwrath to provide even better team support for Pokemon like Lilligant to which a special Poliwrath and spikes synergies very well. A Pokemon like Ferroseed or even Garbodor perform this roll to great effect.

Ground Types: a Ground type is often crucial in using Poliwrath as it blocks Volt Switch on Poliwrath's switching out. If the user does not have a ground type, it often means the team will feel much more pressured by Volt-Turn cores. Pokemon like Rotom. So, its often advised you carry a ground type so you fare better versus these types of team. A Pokemon like Mega-Camerupt are extremely effective at doing this job as not only can it block volt switch but it can get massive damage on the opposing team due to its immense power.

Pokemon that appreciate damage on bulky grasses: pokemon such as malamar, leafeon, sawk , torterra, and rhydon all appreciate their grass type checks weakened or even killed off thanks to the lure Special Poliwrath provides with Ice Beam as its main coverage move. It allows Poliwrath to lure and 2HKO the likes of Leafeon, Vileplume and Tangela where these Pokemon would struggle to break.

Other Options
########

-Substitute + Focus Punch
-Belly Drum sweeper varient (with Rain)
-Specially Defensive Bulk Up + 1 attack
-Substitute Bulk Up + 2 attacks
-Specially Defensive Phazer (as apposed to physically defensive)
-Psychic or Hidden Power [Electric] on the Special Poliwrath; Hidden Power [Electric] should only be used in the scenario where your team desperately needs a Mantine lure as it provides no real coverage outside of this.

Checks & Counters
########

**Fairy Types**: fairies like Granbull and Togetic dont particularly care much for Poliwraths damage output as it does minimal damage to both. Both manage to check it thanks to their respective fairy stab moves. These 2 Pokemon in particular also carry Heal Bell as part of their movesets, which means scald burns will not matter much against them, or any status for that matter.

**Electric Types**: Check the Pokemon extremely effectively, can gain momentum thanks to volt switch on Poliwraths switch out/ kill it if it doesnt switch

**Water/Flying types**: Pokemon like Mantine, Pelipper and Swanna absorb water stabs, doesnt take much from stab fighting move and can retaliate with flying stab

**Bulky Grass Types**: Easily switch in repeatedly, carry recovery and can tank a couple Ice Punches if need be
 
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ryan

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Usage Tips for the first set is pretty slim. I know there's not a lot to say about it, but if you can think of anything else useful, please add something. Don't just add useless information to fill in space though.

Try to offer specific examples under Team Options.

In Moves for SubPunch, cut the stuff about what you Sub against. You have that information later on where in belongs, in Usage Tips.

Mention a Bulk Up set in Other Options.

In Checks and Counters, you can also say that Granbull and Togetic often carry Heal Bell, which makes Scald burns ineffective against them. You also shouldn't say that Mantine is a popular Pokemon in the current meta because this analysis will probably need to last for a while, and its popularity doesn't change its ability to beat Poliwrath. Not sure if I'd even bother mentioning Frillish either; it is a hard counter against everything Poliwrath commonly carries barring Toxic, but it's so irrelevant in NU that it doesn't even seem worth it. You should, however, mention bulky Grass-types, which easily switch in repeatedly. Ice Punch keeps them from being full counters, but most bulky Grass-types carry recovery and can tank an Ice Punch or two.
 

Quite Quiet

why fall in love when you can fall asleep
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TO doesn't need to be formatted like **Thing**:

One thing you can mention in UT for the defensive set is to be careful of mons that can go either specially or physically offensive (samurott) since you don't wall all of its sets.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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HJAD you have 24 hours to respond and 72 hours to implement the above checks or this will be reassigned.

Edit: if you don't want this to keep happening then make sure to update this regularly.
 
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HJAD you have 24 hours to respond and 72 hours to implement the above checks or this will be reassigned.

Edit: if you don't want this to keep happening then make sure to update this regularly.
Can I have an extension for 24 hours?
I got busy with IRL work today, no time to edit
pweese

24 hrs
 
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Okay. This is ready to be further QC checked.
Changes suggested by hollywood and Quite Quiet have been implemented

Montsegur lay off me

Then actually update it more than once a month.<---nice edit

edit: removed all kabutops mentions still lingering from half an hour ago
 
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Ares

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This needs a big rework now that Gatr is gone, Poliwrath countering it was a pretty huge niche for it.

I also think that Choice Specs deserves a set, I've seen multiple ppl use it to great effect. QC thoughts?
 

SM979

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Not QC but Choice Specs is actually pretty good imo. Hydro Pump / Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Scald | Surf is probably ideal, with some speed investment to outspeed idk whatever
 

boltsandbombers

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I'd consider making it along the lines of "Special Attacker" with LO slashed after specs since being locked into one of its stab moves or ice beam is ass. Also being able to switch up is really nice obviously and maybe I guess you could mention like ebelt / mystic water in set details of that or oo.
 
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OK with Samurott becoming the next big thing I'm think I'm just going to replace gatr mentions for SD samurott ones, its bound to become more popular. As far as the specs set is concerned its definately worth the OO list but I'm not sure if it needs an entire set dedicated for it.
 

Kiyo

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Yeah, Choice Specs is worth a set; however, I agree with boltsandbombers suggestion of making it "Special Attacker" with Choice Specs being the first slash.
 

Kiyo

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I've got a busy schedule, but I'll try and get some work done on that as well, so we have 3 Poliwrath sets
I guess, I'm not a huge fan of subpunch myself but unless someone else doesnt think it deserves a set we'll do 3
 

Blast

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Agree with adding Specs but Vacuum Wave needs to be on the set, it's one of its main niches. Should probably be like Focus Blast | Pump | Ice Beam | Vacuum Wave with maybe Scald as an option over Pump if you hate missing
 

SM979

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Agree with adding Specs but Vacuum Wave needs to be on the set, it's one of its main niches. Should probably be like Focus Blast | Pump | Ice Beam | Vacuum Wave with maybe Scald as an option over Pump if you hate missing
Oh yeah, totally forgot this thing learned Vacuum Wave. Also maybe even give Psychic a moves mention? It hits Gurdurr, Hariyama, and opposing Poliwrath the same damage as Focus Blast but 100% accurate. Thoughts?
 

boltsandbombers

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Oh yeah, totally forgot this thing learned Vacuum Wave. Also maybe even give Psychic a moves mention? It hits Gurdurr, Hariyama, and opposing Poliwrath the same damage as Focus Blast but 100% accurate. Thoughts?
I'd say oo. Hariyama is crippled by scale burns (guts isn't that common) and gurdurr is blown back by hydro pumps, and gets phased by the defensive set, while its really just a more accurate move for opposing wrath.
 
Oh yeah, totally forgot this thing learned Vacuum Wave. Also maybe even give Psychic a moves mention? It hits Gurdurr, Hariyama, and opposing Poliwrath the same damage as Focus Blast but 100% accurate. Thoughts?
problem with psychic is that nobody switches in the likes of hariyama and/or gurdurr in on Poliwrath, there are better switch ins that either take less hazard damage or resist/immune to either of its stabs. Its definitely got some use, but if I mention it, it will be a fleeting "oh you might want to use psychic but its not neccesary" type of mention. Appreciate the feedback though :]
 

Punchshroom

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The Special Attacking variant of Poliwrath can also be a Rain sweeper, functioning in a similiar fashion to Ludicolo (set up Rain, sweep).
 

boltsandbombers

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HJAD

First off, there are 4 feraligatr mentions so get rid of those.

Something that I'm noticing throughout is the common use of pronouns such as "We want Maximum Attack" which is more just GP stuff but its better to fix it now. Stray away from that kind of language and use more of an objective tone like "max attack does...."

The formatting of the sets have a bunch of mistakes here and there with spacing and labelling, and because I'm bored and a nice guy here are the corrected sets.
Physically Defensive
########
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Circle Throw
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
ability:Water Absorb
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
nature: Relaxed

Substitute + Focus Punch
########
name: Substitute + Focus Punch
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Ice Punch / Toxic / Encore
ability: Water Absorb
item: Leftovers
evs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
nature: Adamant

Special Attacker
########
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Scald / Hydro Pump
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Psychic / Substitute
ability: Water Absorb
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

I didn't change any of the slashes, just fixed the formatting - c/p these and you're good.

Overview
+ability to wall top tier threats like Feraligatr
Swap out gatr for relevant threats that Poliwrath handles, such as SD Samurott, Rhydon, Malamar (you phase away its boosts and thus drain down the superpower pp), carracosta, barbaracle, sneasel (super important one), etc
-difficult to fit into teams
How? I don't disagree with this statement, it just doesnt tell the reader why it is hard to fit onto a team.
-walled by common threats in NU meta
This doesnt really tell me much tbh, I'd delete this point but if you keep it make sure to add examples.
Assuming that we end up keeping 3 sets, make a bullet point about Poliwrath's versatility (a pokemon that can play as an offensive or defensive role is a very good thing)

Defensive

Moves
-Circle throw to phaze out the things it walls courtesy of its fantastic typing, like sd samurott, rather than let it continue to settup to a high amount of attack and possibly beat you. It also likes circle throw as a way of preventing Pokemon who are trying to settup on you from sweeping your team
Add here that it racks up entry hazard damage.

Team Options
Hazard Stack: Allows for more effective phazing. More damage on walls through hazards means a better chance to sweep in the late game
Steel Types: Help wall stuff that otherwise checks it, like Flying Mons, Psychic Mons and Fairy Mons
This is great and all, but add examples of pokemon that would fit these roles on a team. I'm pretty sure you know what mons would work.

Not commenting on the Sub Punch set since I've never used it and doesnt seem that great tbh.

For the Special Attacker set you just c/p'd all the information from the sub punch set . - .
Please add information to the respective sections that has relevance to the set.
Fix that and I'll give some feedback on the set.

In C&C, make the first section "Fairy-types" and make 2 separate sections for water and flying types.
 
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Blast

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Also I don't think Vacuum Wave should be slashed with anything on the special set, and Psychic and Sub in particular are really bad. Especially now that Qwilfish is gone Psychic hits nothing your STABs + Ice Beam don't, and Sub sucks with Life Orb (and if you use Lefties, it's too weak to make Sub worth using anyway).
 

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