dont really wanna echo what everyone's already said, it'll be fun to see what gira-o can offer for the tier. the req increase was needed as well thank the lord. :j
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]
- Thread starter haunter
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Giratina-O is exactly what this tier needs right now. This tier is pretty much struggling to find answers to Mega Metagross and Landorus-I (aka the best mons in the tier), and this behemoth conveniently checks both of them. This isn't the only thing antimatter satan can take on as well. Hell, more than half the tier is probably checked by this based lord, which is exactly what this tier needs right now.
tl;dr: giratina-o is the hero OU needs, #FreeGira-O
and the significantly massive change in reqs was needed. much respect n_n
tl;dr: giratina-o is the hero OU needs, #FreeGira-O
and the significantly massive change in reqs was needed. much respect n_n
Wut... How.
Seriously though, my instant reaction is that this thing will be really incredibly busted. However, the limitations that having to run Griseous orb is real. It causes it to lack recovery, some power (even on its stabs), as opposed to life orb, and isn't THAT helpful, even compared to no item.
What it does have that Kyu-B (a mon that I see as comparable due to their shared ridiculous BST, yet both back by unique limitations) lacks is a diverse movepool. Kyu-B was also initially expected to be broken beyond belief, but look at it now- it's only B-ish range on the viability ranking, iirc.
I think a suspect is totally justified.
I forgot to mention, it does have pain split for recovery- which could really help it on a bulkier set, although it's ridiculous HP mitigates this somewhat.
Seriously though, my instant reaction is that this thing will be really incredibly busted. However, the limitations that having to run Griseous orb is real. It causes it to lack recovery, some power (even on its stabs), as opposed to life orb, and isn't THAT helpful, even compared to no item.
What it does have that Kyu-B (a mon that I see as comparable due to their shared ridiculous BST, yet both back by unique limitations) lacks is a diverse movepool. Kyu-B was also initially expected to be broken beyond belief, but look at it now- it's only B-ish range on the viability ranking, iirc.
I think a suspect is totally justified.
I forgot to mention, it does have pain split for recovery- which could really help it on a bulkier set, although it's ridiculous HP mitigates this somewhat.
Hey I think it's worth pointing out that Giratina-O is actually less powerful offensively than many other Pokemon in OU.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-160 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 158-186 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
(not that you should be trying to Draco Meteor a Chansey but it's for the sake of the example.)
I'm not decided or anything and I probably won't end up laddering if this turns out not to be a joke, but I think if people want to ban it because of sheer power you're wrong.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-160 (21 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 5.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Draco Plate Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 158-186 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
(not that you should be trying to Draco Meteor a Chansey but it's for the sake of the example.)
I'm not decided or anything and I probably won't end up laddering if this turns out not to be a joke, but I think if people want to ban it because of sheer power you're wrong.
You say that as if rocks are the only way to kill a mon. It's a secondary factor. I mean it is nice that it isnt weak to rocks, but it's weak to many different types..
You know, knowing how to spell would help your case.
Anyway, I'll reserve judgment on this thing until the ladder's up. I mean, it's nice to see that we're trying to see if we can balance Landorus-I before we make attempts to ban it. People are probably just jumping to conclusions here... We won't know until we actually see it.
This is shocking, while its speed is under what we would normally want, and no access to an item cripples it since no reliable recovery besides maybe a Rest/Talk set... the bulk of this thing being 150/100/100 is completely off the charts, but wishpassing (from anything but Alol and Chansey) is completely out of the question, making it more crippled upon th ebulky side, on the offensive spectrum it has perks, and a good mixed offense that well, think like this. It bops a physical wall with draco, then it can Outrage (if it learns it, do not quote me.) it's heart away, bring a fairy check like Bisharp. ((Who has good offensive typing with Giratina-O)) It can be a dominiant force in this meta, while it does lack reliable recovery which cripples it, it still is extremely bulky and is immune to (the 1.5x item boost) from Knock Off. I might expand on this later, not entirely sure.
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well darn! I'm very interested to see if this really happens! I think that it will be a powerful general-purpose mon, certainly an S-rank. I do not think that it will be any worse than megagross in many ways.
I just had a brilliant defensive core idea: m-sableye, keldo/cobalion, and giratina. that would be really, really tough to break.
I just had a brilliant defensive core idea: m-sableye, keldo/cobalion, and giratina. that would be really, really tough to break.
I do believe this suspect will be very helpful and healthy towards the metagame. Giratina will counter those Pokemon who we have trouble dealing with now. And all you have to do is run some sort of fairy (imo) to take care of it. I look forward to having this thing in OU, and maybe people will vote for it.
stall os almost dead rn it wpuld bee really cool to make metagame a little bit more defensive nature even if it would be a little bot overcentralizing
Little shocked I must say, I would have assumed the weaker form would have been been a more likely test for being so passive, but it is insanely bulky even in comparsion to origin. tbh origin will be fun to test, there is no denying it's usefulness on balanced teams, mainly by virtue of it's ghost typing, a value commodity, since the two ou ghosts gengar and sableye, either take a mega slot or are very frail, not only that, but a dragon typing to boot, which makes girantina a nice candidate for dra/ste/fairy cores in balance, which are always nice defensive cores to have and provieds a more soild defensive backboen than some toher mor frailer dragons, while hitting pretty hard.
btw did i mention, girantina learns defog? That to me is a hueg selling point right there, it's bulk and typing are gonna make it a premier user of the move. Although I got to admit, dark, dragon, ice, ghost are prety nasty weaknesses to have and the ability to exploit the is likely going to decide, this currently ubers fate
btw did i mention, girantina learns defog? That to me is a hueg selling point right there, it's bulk and typing are gonna make it a premier user of the move. Although I got to admit, dark, dragon, ice, ghost are prety nasty weaknesses to have and the ability to exploit the is likely going to decide, this currently ubers fate
Alright,
I'm interested in this suspect test. We will see how broken it is in practice but for now, just gonna drop the fact that Giratina-O can be healthy to the current OU metagame.
With Mega-Altaria rising to S-rank, it has become far more common. Giratina-O has next to no chance against a special-based Mega-Altaria and the best it can do is Will-O-Wisp/Toxic a Dragon Dancer. Hyper Voice 2HKOs Giratina, no exceptions, and Return from the standard DD set can kill it in 3 hits.
With Bisharp rising to an incredibly high usage rate, you may see it running around in the suspect ladder very commonly as it is a dark-type that can probably kill a Giratina-O. Giratina-O's options to kill a Bisharp or cripple it is to use Will-O-Wisp mainly, and Dragon Tail if Bisharp tries to set up on it. Even if this is the case, Bisharp can still deal a hefty 50% to Giratina-O with relative ease.
Giratina-O can also help against various annoying Pokemon in the current metagame as it checks some of the most annoying Pokemon there (including Landorus-I, Keldeo, Mega Metagross). All of these Pokemon are the most powerful in the OU metagame currently, but Giratina-O can help in fixing that, this would make the metagame a bit better than it is. And it is not like it will terrorise everything, it is not even overly broken. Its lack of recovery and not fantastic but not bad bulk let Giratina-O be worn down relatively easily.
This is not saying that Giratina-O cannot be broken, but just that it can help the current metagame. This is my foreshadow of Giratina-O in the OU suspect ladder.
I'm interested in this suspect test. We will see how broken it is in practice but for now, just gonna drop the fact that Giratina-O can be healthy to the current OU metagame.
With Mega-Altaria rising to S-rank, it has become far more common. Giratina-O has next to no chance against a special-based Mega-Altaria and the best it can do is Will-O-Wisp/Toxic a Dragon Dancer. Hyper Voice 2HKOs Giratina, no exceptions, and Return from the standard DD set can kill it in 3 hits.
With Bisharp rising to an incredibly high usage rate, you may see it running around in the suspect ladder very commonly as it is a dark-type that can probably kill a Giratina-O. Giratina-O's options to kill a Bisharp or cripple it is to use Will-O-Wisp mainly, and Dragon Tail if Bisharp tries to set up on it. Even if this is the case, Bisharp can still deal a hefty 50% to Giratina-O with relative ease.
Giratina-O can also help against various annoying Pokemon in the current metagame as it checks some of the most annoying Pokemon there (including Landorus-I, Keldeo, Mega Metagross). All of these Pokemon are the most powerful in the OU metagame currently, but Giratina-O can help in fixing that, this would make the metagame a bit better than it is. And it is not like it will terrorise everything, it is not even overly broken. Its lack of recovery and not fantastic but not bad bulk let Giratina-O be worn down relatively easily.
This is not saying that Giratina-O cannot be broken, but just that it can help the current metagame. This is my foreshadow of Giratina-O in the OU suspect ladder.
I believe Giratina-O could help the OU metagame, not only because of Mega Meta and Lando-I, but also the lower tiers as well. UU meta has been hurting since Celebi and Rachi rose, and with usage of Giratina I could see them dropping again. I'm eager to see how this plays out and hope to see Giratina drop to OU, mostly as a balancing factor.
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pyroar? how is that a metagame trend? +6 chansey ice beam? when on earth would you use that? also, why would you switch him into a s.e move at +2?
First of all, what do we have to counter this thing? The only things that can really do that are Clefable and M-Diancie. If this thing comes back we can expect it to be accompanied by an abundance of fairies and Mega Metagross, which was already on the border of broken (sure we can suspect it again but the point is that when Giratina is brought back in it's going to unbalance the metagame). ORAS and XY were never really amazing for stall with addition of souped up pokemon in the form of megas and the great offensive type that is fairy, so unless we get rid of the powerhouses in OU (that would be most of the pokemon there) stall has no chance no matter if we introduce Giratina-O in or not. It's also going to make physical attackers a lot less viable, which tips the balance in favour of special attackers, a lot of which cannot deal with Giratina-O. So I say keep it in Ubers.
I just wanted to point out that this is not an actually a bad idea.
I mean, Kyreum - B has a higher base stat total, ands it Ou. I know that its a pretty bad argument, but arguing about its base stat total is pretty invalid. It also has no passive recovery do to the inability to hold leftovers, and cannot boost its power do to the inability to hold a boosting item (though grievous orb boosts its stab moves by 20%). It's a nice check to landorus, mega metagross, keldeo, and other top threats (keep in mind thats 3 of the 4 S class pokemon). Girantina is also noticeably less powerful then the other special dragons in Ou, something that some one else has already pointed out. Girantina also suffers from having a multitude of common weaknesses, such ice, dark, dragon and fairy. Combine this with its poor speed and lack of reliable recovery, girantina will require excessive support from team mates to keep it alive. Do to being able to hard check many top threats, but has a fair share of flaws, Girantina is not as an absurd suspect test as many people might think.
I mean, Kyreum - B has a higher base stat total, ands it Ou. I know that its a pretty bad argument, but arguing about its base stat total is pretty invalid. It also has no passive recovery do to the inability to hold leftovers, and cannot boost its power do to the inability to hold a boosting item (though grievous orb boosts its stab moves by 20%). It's a nice check to landorus, mega metagross, keldeo, and other top threats (keep in mind thats 3 of the 4 S class pokemon). Girantina is also noticeably less powerful then the other special dragons in Ou, something that some one else has already pointed out. Girantina also suffers from having a multitude of common weaknesses, such ice, dark, dragon and fairy. Combine this with its poor speed and lack of reliable recovery, girantina will require excessive support from team mates to keep it alive. Do to being able to hard check many top threats, but has a fair share of flaws, Girantina is not as an absurd suspect test as many people might think.
Look I don't know why people are treating this as a joke, but Giratina-O gives us a great opportunity to let us balance the metagame.
Our suspect policy of banning pokemon considered "broken" from the tier has really left our tier in a shitty state at the moment, and I am glad the OU council is turning a new leaf and reintroducing pokemon previously banned from the tier. Game Freak designed the game so that no pokemon isn't truly uncounterable and the council has meddled with game balance so much that we constantly find ourselves having to ban things. If we as a community just toughed out some of the overbearing pokemon earlier in this generation, hell even dropped down some ubers like Shaymin-Sky forme which only has 600 BST, we could see the metagame in a balanced state along with a smaller banlist.
When you really think about it, it is arbitrary to have powerful mega-pokemon like Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garchomp in the tier, but keep box-cover legendaries banned in OU. Both Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garcomp have base stat totals of 700+ with better abilities than Giratina-O, and the metagame is able to adapt and handle them just fine. Hell, Kyurem-B was an exception to this rule last generation and it was balanced last generation and this generation, even though it has 700 BST and an unrestricted item. Giratina-O has to restrict itself to Griseous Orb, much like the Mega-Pokemon have to stick with their mega-stone, and it has a smaller 680 BST.
Giratina-O should be allowed in the metagame not only because it can counter and check some huge threats like Landorus-I, Mega-Metagross, Keldeo, and Mega-Lopunny, but also because it is a first step in changing Smogon's current tiering policy that (unfortunately) leaves many pokemon unjustly banned and unavailable to competitive play.
We shouldn't restrict ourselves to some middle-school playground "Mewtwo is banned!" style policies, we're better than that.
Our suspect policy of banning pokemon considered "broken" from the tier has really left our tier in a shitty state at the moment, and I am glad the OU council is turning a new leaf and reintroducing pokemon previously banned from the tier. Game Freak designed the game so that no pokemon isn't truly uncounterable and the council has meddled with game balance so much that we constantly find ourselves having to ban things. If we as a community just toughed out some of the overbearing pokemon earlier in this generation, hell even dropped down some ubers like Shaymin-Sky forme which only has 600 BST, we could see the metagame in a balanced state along with a smaller banlist.
When you really think about it, it is arbitrary to have powerful mega-pokemon like Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garchomp in the tier, but keep box-cover legendaries banned in OU. Both Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garcomp have base stat totals of 700+ with better abilities than Giratina-O, and the metagame is able to adapt and handle them just fine. Hell, Kyurem-B was an exception to this rule last generation and it was balanced last generation and this generation, even though it has 700 BST and an unrestricted item. Giratina-O has to restrict itself to Griseous Orb, much like the Mega-Pokemon have to stick with their mega-stone, and it has a smaller 680 BST.
Giratina-O should be allowed in the metagame not only because it can counter and check some huge threats like Landorus-I, Mega-Metagross, Keldeo, and Mega-Lopunny, but also because it is a first step in changing Smogon's current tiering policy that (unfortunately) leaves many pokemon unjustly banned and unavailable to competitive play.
We shouldn't restrict ourselves to some middle-school playground "Mewtwo is banned!" style policies, we're better than that.
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People say that his stats is on par with the currents megas in ou, but at least the megas have to wait a turn after mega evolution. For Giratina himself, I would have to actually run for voting rights because I have many biases on it. I agree with Jukian that he may be out Lando in it's place. Overall I'm very surprised and I can't wait for April 12.
Okay outside of my shit post, Giratina-O does struggle a bit against a few pokemon. Not that I want this still instilled into OU, but checks do exist in OU. Giratina-O struggles to get past Chansey and Sylveon due to their natural typing and stats. Even the Mixed-Physical set can't do much to either said checks.
The issue is that it's stats are way too strong for this tier. Also, nothing is really stopping Gira from switching to it's vast moveset. It literally checks the metagame. It destroys it and makes it it's bitch.
...Then again so does Landorus-I. So maybe there is a chance to Giratina-O. >>;
Also would you guys feel better if I posted a Wigglytuff set instead?
The issue is that it's stats are way too strong for this tier. Also, nothing is really stopping Gira from switching to it's vast moveset. It literally checks the metagame. It destroys it and makes it it's bitch.
...Then again so does Landorus-I. So maybe there is a chance to Giratina-O. >>;
I'm gunna take a strange approach on this even though I won't be able to ladder, because I am sick with middle ear infection and a virus. But I wanna talk about how I see this since this page is for discussion and it seems like this can be a good and bad pokemon to move down to OU.
The good thing about having Giratina O form is having a nice attack stat to destroy anything that walls your team, in case for some reason you still aren't convinced that specs sylveon is a good time (nearly ohko'ing mega slowbro with hyper voice). Giratina seems to have a good move pool overall and it can take down psychic types and ghost types which have become more prominent in the wall pokemon division more and more in the past 2 generations. It's speed is good enough to be competitive with other offensive pokemon as well.
It also has a damn good typing. With dragon having multiple resists, and ghost being as neutral as it can be most of the time, they only thing you should be worried about is Starmie, Mega Blastoise, and Knock Off users, to name a few threats. But they aren't really a huge problem because you have so much bulk you laugh at the stupidity of the situation between you and them. That being said, Giratina O isn't perfect but it's really good for what it is.
The part that is bad about Giratina O in my opinion is that we JUST tried to get rid of something similar: Mega Metagross and Mega Salamence. Interestingly enough, a Pokemon with 150 hp vs 80 hp, is not as bad even though the 150 hp is helping out its bulk significantly on both sides of the spectrum vs Megagross' one side of Defense? It just doesn't seem right. Then again, Megagross was not banned from OU but it should be kept in mind it was once suspect tested. If it was bad enough to suspect test that, I couldn't imagine how awful it would be to fight this beast in OU with my Lando t, Thunderus, or Heatran, all of which are top usage legendaries of the tier right now.
I think while this is a step in the right direction somewhat, I think that Giratina is not the best choice to bring to OU because while it does bring the walls at bay, it will also not easily die to many top tier threats in the meta considering the bulk behind it. While I do wish for other potential suspect tests, I will obey the rules and not bother to speak of them here. Just know that I think a better approach to this in my opinion would be tackling the walls of OU instead in some fashion. Take that with a grain of salt, I guess.
With that, I'll be heading back to more coughing sneezing and ear itching. :(
The good thing about having Giratina O form is having a nice attack stat to destroy anything that walls your team, in case for some reason you still aren't convinced that specs sylveon is a good time (nearly ohko'ing mega slowbro with hyper voice). Giratina seems to have a good move pool overall and it can take down psychic types and ghost types which have become more prominent in the wall pokemon division more and more in the past 2 generations. It's speed is good enough to be competitive with other offensive pokemon as well.
It also has a damn good typing. With dragon having multiple resists, and ghost being as neutral as it can be most of the time, they only thing you should be worried about is Starmie, Mega Blastoise, and Knock Off users, to name a few threats. But they aren't really a huge problem because you have so much bulk you laugh at the stupidity of the situation between you and them. That being said, Giratina O isn't perfect but it's really good for what it is.
The part that is bad about Giratina O in my opinion is that we JUST tried to get rid of something similar: Mega Metagross and Mega Salamence. Interestingly enough, a Pokemon with 150 hp vs 80 hp, is not as bad even though the 150 hp is helping out its bulk significantly on both sides of the spectrum vs Megagross' one side of Defense? It just doesn't seem right. Then again, Megagross was not banned from OU but it should be kept in mind it was once suspect tested. If it was bad enough to suspect test that, I couldn't imagine how awful it would be to fight this beast in OU with my Lando t, Thunderus, or Heatran, all of which are top usage legendaries of the tier right now.
I think while this is a step in the right direction somewhat, I think that Giratina is not the best choice to bring to OU because while it does bring the walls at bay, it will also not easily die to many top tier threats in the meta considering the bulk behind it. While I do wish for other potential suspect tests, I will obey the rules and not bother to speak of them here. Just know that I think a better approach to this in my opinion would be tackling the walls of OU instead in some fashion. Take that with a grain of salt, I guess.
With that, I'll be heading back to more coughing sneezing and ear itching. :(
I believe that Giratina-O is in fact the hero OU requires at the moment. Unlike many other Ubers, Giratina-O is a poor choice, and rarely seen on many teams even there. In OU I can see Giratina being a respectable option for teams that lack a spinblocker and want to use defog, but not a dominating force in the metagame. Even though its item cannot be removed by Knock Off, it is still weak to the move, and cannot run Leftovers to recover. Its item is also mostly useless, only boosting its STABs.
I find this incredibly unsettling as it directly violates previous statements by tiering leaders about how the "best sets" are an integral part of mons. By allowing Giratina-O in the tier it sets a poor message and indirectly contradicts parts of previous statements regarding how bans are carried out. We don't allow Blaziken as long as it has Blaze or Greninja as long as it has Torrent. In a different sense, why not allow Deoxys-A as long as it holds an Iron Ball? I doubt that anybody would say that Iron Ball Deoxys-A is broken, or even on par with most RU mons.
In short, this is a somewhat arbitrary restriction that opens up very, very easily to future "bringing down" of ubers with certain restrictions. I'm less worried about Giratina-O being broken and more about what precedent this sets in terms of banning policy. If Giratina-A isn't being suspected as well then there are more reasons to not unban than simply brokenness.
In short, this is a somewhat arbitrary restriction that opens up very, very easily to future "bringing down" of ubers with certain restrictions. I'm less worried about Giratina-O being broken and more about what precedent this sets in terms of banning policy. If Giratina-A isn't being suspected as well then there are more reasons to not unban than simply brokenness.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Giratina-O have Levitate, which renders it immune to toxic spikes?
Regardless, I'm not quite sure what to think of the suspect so far. If it helps break the stall-oriented OU Meta, then by all means, go right ahead. But introducing something that's been ubers for 2 generations into the OU Meta just to introduce another viable ghost type just seems....like missing the forest for the trees, really. People are using it's Knock Off weakness as a fact that it's not broken...but it never takes increased damage from Knock-Off, considering it has to run Griseous Orb, which can't get KO'd.
Tbh haunter is really allowed to delete your comment here, as it is not contributing to the topic whatsoever. Try coming back with some arguments that prove that Giratina-O's unbanning will be healthier than if you bring it down, if he deletes comments similar to that comment then that is when complaining is justified.
Giratina-O would be a fantastic addition to the tier. My friends and I cry all the time to find ways to counter act the 20+ wallbreakers and sweepers in the tier with just 6 slots. I believe that this will provide the balance that we are looking for in regards to a stable meta-game. Due to its array of options it can fit comfortably on many teams and provide both offensive and defensive utility and alleviate any matchup issues that come about facing said wall-breakers and sweepers that I and many others find myself choking in front of in the blink of an eye. This change I feel will increase the skill level by an exceptionally large margin and no more will the poor souls of the OU community be forced to click "x" or use the excuse of losing to matchup based on their terrible building and even poorer playing. I also approve of the 50 point increase in the coil requirement. That is the true essence of skill right there those last 50 points we've been neglecting for so long.
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