np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[SilverForUbers]

Giratina-O in OU is perfectly fine. You see, it's bulk is terrible and it's offensive stats are terrible. It also has an ability which allows it to have an immunity to ground type moves. That's absolutely terrible. Honestly, why was this thing ever Ubers in the first place? Really guys. This guy needs to drop down to PU tbh. I would've said LC but he can't evolve. Even if he becomes OU he'll probably drop to D rank or unranked due to how absolutely terrible he is. Like really guys. If it's dropping out of Ubers it's for a reason. Even his movepool is bogus.

Tl;dr terrible offensive and defensive stats, ability, and movepool.

Giratina-O should drop to OU.

 

[qways]

FFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Those who follow the ou chat on ps may remember that i wanted this suspect to happen, even though i thought about the other form to suspect, but this is also solid.
I dont get how people could say its broken before its even suspected.
Cresselia has better bulk and reliable recovery and less weaknesses and is in ru. giratina has a shitton of weaknesses and cant even use leftovers.
People here asked what changed to other gens that it is not broken. The answer is that fairies were introduced and that knock off got buffed. also the mons high on the ladder hit it for supereffective damage:

just look at a+ mons
Azumarill cant switch into play rough, can switch in to waterfall
Bisharp: cant switch into knock off
Charizard (Mega-X) cant switch into
Clefable is set up fodder
Diancie (Mega) cant switch into
Gengar cant switch into
Gliscor can switch into but get taunted and cant do anything back.
Heatran can switch into but cant treatehen it
Landorus-T wont enjoy switching into knock off, but cant witch into
Lopunny (Mega) can siwtch into
Latios cant switch into
Sableye (Mega) can switch into, cant do anything back
Scizor (Mega) can switch into and burn
Talonflame can siwtch into , will take damage, not sure if it wins
Thundurus can siwtch into, wont like nasty plot and hp ice.

so out of 15 mons in a+ rank it is a counter to Lopunny and scizor and checks lando-t, talon and thundy, i dont think thats great for a wall.
clefable heatran gliscor and sdef talond and sdef sableye can on the other hand siwtch into it without a problem.
and remember that it lacks reliable recovery - it gets worn down a lot by sr, especially if the enemy does a double switch. it has pain spluit, wich works a bit similar to rotom due to similar defenses (100/100 compared to 107/107), but it doesnt ahve volt switch to be as annoying.

 

[Porii Sames]

My issue with this is that I don't really see why we're not just retesting Aegislash. I don't know if Giratina-O is going to be balanced in OU but I'm pretty sure that, no matter what, it's going to be much better than Aegislash if they were both re-tested.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

really glad we're testing giritina-o. why was this thing banned in the first place? ghost type? say hello to my BISHARP!!!!!!!!!!!!! it has checks so we should unban it tbh. mega audino, an already top tier OU threat, just gets better with giritina, the so-called "leg dairy" dropping from ubers

On the bright side, if you can afford Mega Audino you can use Wigglytuff. It also counters Mega Sableye.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Just saying, the timing for this was quite terrible, almost everyone is convinced that it is an early april fool.

I'm worrying about the exact same thing that is worrying Sweep, which is that, while this thing would allow us to find an easy glue for many offensive and defensive teams against about half of the big threats in ou, it is also pretty difficult to switch into (Shadow Force is about as powerful as Mega Metagross Meteor Mash ffs whitout even fully investing in atk).
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 222-262 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
180 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 220-259 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And unlike other wallbreakers it has insane bulk too.

Not necessarily opposing to this though, i'm pretty curious to see where it will go.

Gonna be pretty hilarious to see Mega Audino popping around

 

[leremyju]

the op specifically stated that players such as hugo and mcm believed Giratina O could drop due to checking Lando I, Zard Y, etc...

Aegislash does not fucking do that. Reading is essential

 

[apt-get]

Way to go, Haunter. You're too early. Christmas is on Wednesday

 

[Reymedy]

Giratina-O would be a fantastic addition to the tier. My friends and I cry all the time to find ways to counter act the 20+ wallbreakers and sweepers in the tier with just 6 slots.

Well, now you're just about to have a 21th wallbreaker to check.
IDGI, checking broken stuff with broken stuff, don't fall into such a delusional pattern. Plus, what does even really check this. I've checked the movepool and it's ridiculous, we're gonna waste even more time in the building of this generation that is, for now, really disapointing at best.

 

[The Immortal]

Ladder is up

 

[kars4kidz]

I think Giratina would be a great addition to the ou tier! Mainly because it walls some CRAZY STRONG pokemon like Landorus-I, MegaZard-Y, Keldeo as well as having nice defense stats and access to will o wisp!
HOWEVER, while it may have good defensive stats its also VULNERABLE to some common pokemon like CM / Life Orb Clefable, Lum Bisharp, The Latis, and can get worn down EASILY (easily mind you-) since it has no reliable recovery. (RESTTALK IS NOT RELIABLE) this is why Giratina would make a great addition to the ORAS OU Metagame :).

While I wouldn't list MegaZard-Y amongst Lando-I and Keldeo, your point still stands. This ability to wall amazing portion of the tier will cause another problem. Because Gira-O counters so many threats (Mega Meta not included) , it will become overused in OU, possibly even top of the usage stats. This in turn will make Bisharp, Clefable, and Lati@s rise. So introducing it wouldn't solve any problems that it wouldn't cause by being overcentralizing. I predict that Gira-O will run Aura Sphere (
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 265-312 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) so it can easily live a Sucker Punch and kill Bisharp.

 

[PhobiaBB]

Alright, I really wanted to shitpost at first because it is near April Fool's and this suspect is making a stupidly bold move (not a bad thing). Anyways, it is a defensive beast with some variety in moves, which makes unpredictable like Sweep said eariler. However, it is weak to some fairly common Pokes such as Fairies, Bisharp, the Latis, and the rising Ice types. Also, if it is the Rest Talk set, that makes sort of a deadweight since it can't set up and just walls stuff. It can also be used as Taunt bait if it is the defensive set. However, it can help the metagame for the better...Or not. Really, I don't want to make a decision until the ladder sort of settles in.

 

[astroboy]

My issue with this is that I don't really see why we're not just retesting Aegislash. I don't know if Giratina-O is going to be balanced in OU but I'm pretty sure that, no matter what, it's going to be much better than Aegislash if they were both re-tested.

um? giritina has garbage stats and a disgusting typing! its typing makes it so its its own counter! aegislash has many good stats! suspect an bisharp!!!! it becomes an top tier wall in this meta!!!

 

[tko]

im actually looking forward for this suspect
giratina can be interesting in the sense that it would bring many mons into balance as it is a great check to them. along with that, it is not superly broken like people are saying it is. I believe it would fit into the meta, but i will have to make my final decision when the suspect ladder rolls in. I believe that giratina /for now/ can actually fit in ou o3o

 

[Sweep]

Uncounterable my ass

Standard Mandibuzz with 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD EV's easily counters Giratina-O. Even with max special attack, Giratina will fail to 2HKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage. Here are some calcs for you:

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 246-291 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Outrage vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 76-90 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its not like Mandibuzz is totally helpless either. Foul Play does a clean 60%+ to Mixed Giratina-O. On top of that, Mandibuzz can use Toxic to wear down Giratina over time and use Defog to stop it from racking up damage with Dragon Tail + Stealth Rock.

0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 278-330 (63 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Solid check, far from a counter. Giratina can spam Thunder (or Thunderbolt if you're a weenie) vs. it and 2HKO, and Mandibuzz cannot safely switch in at all, regardless of whether SR is out or not. Mandibuzz also hates Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Blazikarados]

From my experience, Pyroar is very popular at the 1100-1200 range.

| 6 | Pyroar | 17.110% |

Calm Mind Blissey was a very good ADV set, but fell out of usage as people decided to use Chansey for it's superior bulk. If you look at my previous calc, Draco Meteor does nothing to Chansey, making it complete set up fodder.

And it's not that Giratina is switching in, but it can't do anything to stop Bisharp from setting up. It can't burn due to lum berry, and Giratina can't do much but sit there and die.

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 72-84 (26.4 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 161-190 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 226-268 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Please tell me this is an elaborate troll. Please.

On the "no counters/has counters" argument:

Keep in mind that "has counters" doesn't mean not broken and "no counters" doesn't mean broken.

In general I see Giratina encouraging the use of massively powerful hitters like Azumarill, since its bulk, even itemless, is solid and you need to be ready for the CM Restalk set.

 

[doughboy]

Sweep its called team support. Pair it up with this bad boy (girl?) right here to prepare against Wil-o-Wisp and Thunder Giratinia-O for a solid anti-Giratina core.


Immune to both of Giratina-O's STAB's and it has reliable recovery. Mega-Audino is an example of another underused Pokemon that will be brought up back to viability in the Giratinia-O OU metagame. It has a supereffective STAB against Giratinia-O and a multitude of support moves that make sure it isn't passive as hell. So far, I haven't seen any compelling arguments to keep Giratina-O out of the tier. It counters huge threats in the metagame, makes some underused pokemon viable, and it has a easy-to-incoporate checks and counters.
Giratina-O? More like Giratina-OU.

 

[Albacore]

Really excited for this suspect test. Right now I'm not sure if this tier can properly handle Giratina-O, what with its astounding bulk, excellent coverage thanks to the combination of Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere and Draco Meteor, great support abilities in WoW, Defog, Thunder Wave and Roar, and access to Calm Mind, potentially turning it into an excellent bulky sweeper, in the same vein as Crocune or CM Sableye.

But it does actually have a few shortcomings whioch can't be ignored. The most glaring is its speed, which prevents it from outspeeding most of the offensive metagame, which generally lies at base 100 Speed or more. It also lacks reliable recovery, needing to rely on Pain Split and RestTalk. It also takes a lot of damage from some of OU's most powerful threats, like Altaria, Clefable, Diancie, Gardevoir, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Weavile, Hydreigon, Salamence, and Mega-Audino.

Honestly, I really believe that Giratina could have a healthy effect on the metagame. After all, it undeniably does some positive things for the OU tier :

• It provides us with an additional hazard remover. Hazard removers are relatively scarce in OU, and having one this good is something we should embrace.
• It's an excellent spinblacker and is exactly what hazard-stacking balance teams need at the moment, and could make this slightly obscure playstyle the titan it was 2 generations ago.
• It gives us a viable Ghost type. There is a distinct lack of good ghost types in OU, the only notable examples being Gengar and Sableye, and it would be nice to see more Ghost types, wouldn't it?
• It counters Mega Metagross, widely considered to be one of the biggest threats in OU, and by many to be broken.
• It counters Landorus, also widely considered to be one of the biggest threats in OU, and by many to be broken.
• It counters Keldeo, also widely considered to be one of the biggest threats in OU, and while not neccesarily considered broken by many people, an additional counter to such a big threat wouldn't hurt.
• It counters Mega-Lopunny, which is a huge threat to offensive teams and will benefit hugely from a viable counter to it being introduced in OU
• It counters Landorus-T. While not considered broken by any one worth seriously listening to, it is a very annoying Pokemon for a lot of people and keeping it in check seems like a pretty good idea.
• It counters Rotom-W. Once again,not broken by any mean, but god damn is it a pain in the ass.
• It counters Lucario. Not really considered a huge threat, but for some reason I keep making teams that are weak to it, and get swept by it, which is pretty embarrasing. Unbanning Giratina-O and enabling me to use it on every single one of my teams would save me from this embarrassment in the future.
• It makes teambuilding simpler by introducing a foolproof Pokemon which can and almost must be used on any given playstyle or team archetype, be it stall, bulky offense, or hyper offense. That way, you only have to build with 5 teamslots instead of 6, which is easier.
• It will make half the metagame unviable. A smaller metagame means fewer threats to cover, which in turn, means much easier teambuilding and a less matchup-based metagame.

So, will Giratina-O be good or bad for our metagame? The only way to find out is to try it!

 

[SketchUp]

I totally agree with the fact that Giratina-O would be good for the metagame from a defensive point of view, as checking many common threats like Mega Lopunny and Landorus at once is a very good thing to have introduced. From an offensive point of view, Giratina has very high offenses backed up with a 1,2x STAB boost because of its item without any drawbacks. The combination of good defensive power and high offensive power, though it has lacks like a lack of leftovers recovery and no reliable recovery because Pain Split and Rest sucks, makes a pokemon that instantly looks a very difficult issue to deal with in any given tier. However, as doughboy and AM pointed out pretty well, Giratina-O helps checking so many top tier threats which helps opening up teambuilding and makes more room for innovation.
An important difference I see between Aegislash and Giratina-O is that the influence Giratina will have on the metagame doesn't look bad at first sight. I am not an Ubers player neither have I tested out Giratina-O in a OU Suspect match yet but at the moment I don't see the problem with it reintroducing in the metagame, but this can possibly change when I will play more on the ladder. Doesn't change the fact that the suspect test is a very good thing for the metagame so +1 for the OU council for picking this mon, even if it is decided that it is too broken.
Also +1 for the increase in COIL

tl;dr: the suspect test is a positive thing for the metagame and a reintroduction in the metagame is definitely fine

 

[Durandal]

I´m going to try this one. I think this is a valid suspect test.

At first I thought it was just an April´s Fool joke however looking at Giratina-O I actually think is a pretty good idea. Sure it has outstanding stats (except for its ok speed), however it doesn´t get access to recovery moves like Roost so it must rely on its natural bulk to survive. It is weak to Dragon, Fairy, Ghost, Dark and Ice which is quite a bit of weaknesses and attacks of these type are pretty common on OU and it can´t use items cause Griseous Orb is mandatory.

That being said it does get access to priority in Shadow Sneak and raw power in Draco Meteor but I think what Giratina-O is gonna do best is be the best defogger. People will most certainly be cautious of the WoW as well but you can work around that.

 

[casey90]

I feel like a lot of people are going to seem more scared of this thing because of where it's coming from more so then what it will actually do in a match. I think the simple fact that it's prone to getting worn down due a to a lack of recovery, and that Clefable can check 99% of what it does will keep it from rampaging too hard.

The defog sets however, I think will be top tier. It has semi-powerful Phazing move, a fast Wisp (discouraging Bisharp from trying to get the defiant boost), and a great typing to come in against numerous threats including Keldeo and Landorus-I.

 

[Maple Syrup]

Giratina-O can check/counter/1v1:

Keldeo, Lando-I, Mega Metagross, Heatran, Lando-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Thundurus, Celebi, Mega Charizard-Y, Excadrill, Hippowdon, Manaphy, Mega Manectric, Rotom-W, (Mega) Slowbro, Starmie, Tornadus-T, Mega Gallade, Gyarados, Jirachi, Politoed, Volcarona. And almost everything below A rank that does not have a SE move to scare it out.

With 3 amazing immunities, 150/100/100 bulk it can pivot and check so many threats while maintaining good offensive presence with 120/120 mixed offenses. It also has great utility with defog/d-tail and has a great speed tier for a pivot. I do not see why this pokemon would not be used on just about every type of playstyle.

It can spinblock for HO, pivot for offense(checks so many threats that offense hates), defog for balance, defog and phaze for stall. With so many possible roles I think Giratina-O would be top-tier in OU

The balance it brings to each team would be welcome however as it is not overwhelming on the offensive side nor is it unbreakable with many offensive threats such as, M-Alt, Gengar, Diancie, Clefable, Bisharp, Mega Alakazam, Bulk Chomp, Lati@s, Gardevoir, TTar and more being quite common place on many of todays teams. Of course it would take a bit of time for the meta to settle but I don't think Giratina-O would be an unstoppable force in the OU metagame.

Lack of proper items hinder it a lot as well.

However I believe the problem lies in where it would be used on just about every team and it would be overcentralizing seeing as a fairy type will be almost mandatory on each team.

 

[ShatteredSummers]

Nice to see a Defogger and Charizard-Y/Keldeo counter other than Latios.

I'm actually quite interested in bringing Giratina-O to OU. It reminds me a little of Mega Slowbro:

-On one hand, it loses to powerful Fairy, Dragon, Dark, and Ice attacks. Like from Kyurem-B, Latios, Diancie, Tyranitar
-But on the other hand, if you don't have anything to hit it super effectively, you essentially lose, as nothing on your team can break it.

And like other people have mentioned, its bulk lets it check to all kinds of offensive Pokemon in OU : Metagross, Landorus, Charizard Y, Keldeo, Lopunny, Scizor.

It's going to be interesting to bring this thing into OU. Like Maple Syrup said, it seems like it'll be a bit overcentralizing too. No playstyle will have a reason not to run it. Let's see what can break it.

 

[Tricking]

This suspect is really interesting imo. Giratina-O can be a solid counter for a quite portion of the OU Metagame and at the same time it can't exploit its Offensive Stats because of its limited moveset. There won't be any problem if you are looking for a counter. It is just very centralizing (but I feel it's centralizing in a positive way) because if you want to check Giratina, you must use a Fairy-Type or a Dragon-Type; at the same time if you need to check Fairy-Types and Dragon-Types, you are forced to run Steel-Types that are walled by Giratina.

Now the Metagame wouldn't be focused on Landorus-I, Metagross and other common wallbreakers, but defensive cores will benefit from this unban. This can't be a joke, that's just a different kind of the OU Metagame. I'll vote for its unban because its definetly not broken. Don't forget that it has no reliable recovery (Pain Split and Rest are pretty bad), so it is pretty passive. I'm looking forward to Giratina getting introduced in the suspect ladder, so we can see what will be its impact for this Metagame. Basically there aren't so many differences between Sableye and Giratina in the role for this tier, but Giratina-O acts better in order to check Landorus-I, Charizard-Y and other powerful wallbreaker that didn't have a particular counter. Stall will surely be more used, but nothing impossible to deal with powerful attackers and wallbreakers: OU is full of broken things.

And stop thinking this is a joke. Haunter and all the other people that lead this tier haven't much time to lose by trolling a whole Community, instead of being rude and throw shit to the Tier Leaders, just try and imagine what could be a positive use of Giratina-O in this tier.

 

[Cazenovia]

I honestly find this Pokemon to be a bit too overpowering for the meta. In the OU room, we were talking about counters to CM Giratina-O, and the only ones we could think of were Clefairy, and the extremely niche Wigglytuff. If only 2 Pokemon can counter Giratina-O, why unban it?

tl;dr: read it. there's not that much

 

[MaDaFaKaS]

Remember that what Giratina-O does in Ubers is irrelevant to this suspect test. We are testing whether Giratina would be healthy in OU. Only a pokemon's high usage in a lower tier may push it higher.

Giratina-O is able to counter so many powerful pokemon in current OU. Can run multiple sets like all-out-attacker with great stabs, priority is shadow sneak and many coverage moves, Dragon-tail shuffling sets, Calm-mind/Will-o-wisp/Dragon tail rest talk sets, Support with defog, will-o-wisp and destiny bond. Most of the counters suggested here can be beaten with a certain move Giratina can carry.

Giratina-O would be too useful in OU and centralise the meta. But at least it is a great pokemon design

 

[antemortem]

My issue with this is that I don't really see why we're not just retesting Aegislash. I don't know if Giratina-O is going to be balanced in OU but I'm pretty sure that, no matter what, it's going to be much better than Aegislash if they were both re-tested.

how is Aegislash relevant to a Giratina-O test(it's not a retest btw since it was never tested)?

it can be worn down easily / revenge killed by stuff like bisharp

Bisharp doesn't OHKO with either Knock Off or Sucker Punch and Gira-O can just OHKO with Aura Sphere. It's also kind of interesting that Giratina's Iron Tail does upwards of 50% to the likes of Clefable.