np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[BlazeLatias]

Giratina o might not be a imediate threat but in the situation of volc vs gira if its a cm set gira wins if it haS rest. I mean several ou mons are kinda lke that. I might of missed this but is gira usable in ou now? Havent been on for a while so im confused how hes tested it

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Ok, then how about sturggling and failing to defeat Volcarona? It just doesn't have enough offensive Power I feel to be an offensive threat. I've been testing it all day, and the only thing it has suceeded in OHKOing is a Mega Loppuny. Seriously. And Like I said, it feels like a horrible Mega Pokemon. It is no where near close the power of Kyogre, aor Mega Mawile.

And so? You can always run Dragon Tail in tandem with Stealth Rock to phaze Volcarona out, or even run physical Giratina-O which just crushes Volcarona. Talking about what it can OHKO is severely undermining its real capabilities and you seem extremely narrow minded with whatever the hell kind of Giratina you're running, don't forget it has a huge ass movepool which means you can always cater it to your team's needs and Giratina-O is a brute. Let's not forget that Giratina can always run Will-O-Wisp to cripple its potential counters.

"It feels like a horrible Mega Pokeon"...lol wut.. this Pokemon is more of a Dialga if anything in terms of what it is, and it's vastly superior to many Mega Pokemon except for like...Metagross maybe? It's bulky as all hell and such, and it doesn't even have opportunity cost! You can always use it with a Mega.

I can see many good arguments to free Giratina-O, but you for one seem to just be grasping at straws and are using some very ludicrous arguments.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

Lol saying something isn't broken because it can't beat a lower tiered Pokemon is one of the most ignorant arguments I've ever seen. Talonflame is completely walled by Regirock, an NU Pokemon, but does that make it bad? Of course not, because Regirock is very subpar outside of walling a few physical attackers. Mantine is NU, previously PU, and it hard walls two of the most dominant Pokemon in the metagame (Keldeo and Landorus) but regardless of that, Landorus is still a stupid piece of shit and Mantine sucks in almost every other situation.

The fact that people are already having to resort using an ass Pokemon such as AV Melo to beat Giratina-O already proves how much of an insane impact Giratina will have on team building.



"All day" the ladder just came out like barely a few hours ago and you already act like you're some expert on it. The meta has had no time to develop. Also how the fuck does it lose to Volc? It resits both of its STAB moves and Volc just crumbles Vs Shadow Force variants. Why does a Pokemon have to OHKO everything in order to be broken? What makes Giratina-O so ridic isn't its power, but its combination of insane bulk, versatility, and resistances. It checks like 50% of the tier all by itself and pressures the ever living fuck out you unless you bring a hard counter to it, which not much exist.

If you think a Pokemon needs to be as strong as Mega Mawile or Primal Kyogre in order to be broken, then you need to seriously consider your outlook on how you go about banning shit.

Talonflame gets walled by Regirock because Regirock resists everything Talonflame can throw at it. Draco Meteor is neutral on Meleotta. And I'm not saying it needs to OHKO everything. And when I say all day, I mean since it was announced. And I am not running the Shadow Force variant, so sorry.

 

[Holiday]

EDIT



There have been many pokemon across a variety of metagames, across a variety of generations that don't have strict "counters" (usually wallbreakers). Its not a good enough reason to be solely the cause for a ban.

Just going off of this, hydreigon and rampardos don't have counters but one's in PU and the other is top tier UU at best lmao. Counters are not the basis for banning something. Greninja had counters based on moveset, it got banned for it's versatility. Genesect has a pool of counters, namely Heatran (scary techno blast water tbh) but it was banned bc of how pivotal it made lead matchup and how centralizing it was. Giratina has a surprising amount of checks if it gets whittled (I know Mega Sharpedo can OHKO if Giratina isn't running any bulk) so we'll just have to adapt and see how OU handles Giratina-O

 

[Red Cat]

Giratina-O doesn't have a ton of raw firepower like other Ubers, but it doesn't need it with 150 / 100 / 100 defenses. 120 attack and special attack are enough with powerful STABs like Draco Meteor, Outrage, and Shadow Force. It doesn't OHKO much, but almost nothing OHKOs Giratina-O and most offensive threats can't even 2HKO it.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

Everyone who says I've been grasping at straws, have you even been testing it? Because I have. It is doing no better than any other OU Pokemon. It counters and has counters, but it's not that good offensively, and limited due to lack of recovery defensively.

 

[havokchomp123]

There shouldn't be any sort of comparison's between giratina-O (ok i'm calling it G-O from now on because i'm sick of typing the name) and pokemon from the Uber's tier because that those pokemon aren't even a part of the metagame.

Talonflame gets walled by Regirock because Regirock resists everything Talonflame can throw at it. Draco Meteor is neutral on Meleotta. And I'm not saying it needs to OHKO everything. And when I say all day, I mean since it was announced. And I am not running the Shadow Force variant, so sorry.

What does talonflame getting walled by regirock have to do with anything? Look man i'm not going to judge but you should think a little bit before u post.

 

[Master B8s]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't this be considered a complex ban (or complex unban). We're allowing giritina(if it is allowed back in) to be OU usable IF it holds the Grisieous Orb. That pretty much just says we can unban ubers as long as we limit their items. If we were testing giritinas Altered form then I wouldn't have a problem, but his just feels like smogon bending their "no complex ban" rule just to "stabilize" (I use that because I feel giritina-O will just centralize the metagame around it). If we're re-testing giritina, Im all for it, But i feel giritina should be retested as a whole rather than just its Origin form.
If this counts as discussion on the suspect process, my apologies.

 

[havokchomp123]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't this be considered a complex ban (or complex unban). We're allowing giritina(if it is allowed back in) to be OU usable IF it holds the Grisieous Orb. That pretty much just says we can unban ubers as long as we limit their items. If we were testing giritinas Altered form then I wouldn't have a problem, but his just feels like smogon bending their "no complex ban" rule just to "stabilize" (I use that because I feel giritina-O will just centralize the metagame around it). If we're re-testing giritina, Im all for it, But i feel giritina should be retested as a whole rather than just its Origin form.
If this counts as discussion on the suspect process, my apologies.

It's a form for giratina, it's in the same way that we are banning a mega pokemon.

 

[zachmac]

"X pokemon beats Y pokemon, so Y pokemon must not be broken".

I hate that argument. It's faulty for countless reasons.
Mostly because the metagame is never solely defined by "X pokemon".

Being RU doesn't mean the pokemon doesn't have strengths it can exploit. Check this out.

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 214-253 (78.9 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 372-438 (131.9 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thanks to Vital Spirit, Choice Scarf Primape can swap in on anything Darkai's got and OHKO it in return.
Does this mean Darkai should be UU? I mean, it loses to an NU pokemon afterall.

No. It doesn't. Darkai is still Uber, and nothing Primeape can do will change that.

 

[Red Cat]

It's a form for giratina, it's in the same way that we are banning a mega pokemon.

We don't ban mega Pokemon; we ban the mega stones.

Edit: There is a difference between mega evolutions and Giratina-O. Mega forms need their mega stones because cartridge mechanics require that. There is no cartridge mechanic that forces Giratina to hold a Griseous Orb. In this case, it is like we are forcing a Pokemon to hold a mega stone because we think its base form is broken.

 

[SketchUp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't this be considered a complex ban (or complex unban). We're allowing giritina(if it is allowed back in) to be OU usable IF it holds the Grisieous Orb. That pretty much just says we can unban ubers as long as we limit their items. If we were testing giritinas Altered form then I wouldn't have a problem, but his just feels like smogon bending their "no complex ban" rule just to "stabilize" (I use that because I feel giritina-O will just centralize the metagame around it). If we're re-testing giritina, Im all for it, But i feel giritina should be retested as a whole rather than just its Origin form.
If this counts as discussion on the suspect process, my apologies.

No, because Giratina-Origin can't be Giratini-Origin without a Griseous Orb, just like a Mega Metagross can't be a Mega Metagross without a Metagrossite. It's not like we are only allowing Giratina-Origin + Griseous Orb, we are just only allowing Giratina-Origin, which can only be played with a Griseous Orb

 

[skup]

Alright, I'm not going to say whether or not I think Giratina is broken before I get to mess around with it on the suspect ladder, so I'd like to get some discussion going on what exactly Giratina's best sets are. Personally, I think any sets using Rest + Sleep Talk, like Cro and Defensive are just trash. They're slow and passive, not to mention they give up a ton of free turns. Without actually investing into its attacking stats, Tina is pretty weak, and having basically 0 coverage to give all the Fairies and Dark's that are looking to take advantage of Tina free switch-ins just isn't good.

The sets I actually do think are good are the sets based around using Dragon Tail to shuffle shit. Tina's Dragon Tail hits really fucking hard on neutral targets when it's invested, in addition to racking up hazard damage. These sets play out somewhat similarly to bulky SR Garchomp, but they need something else to set up hazards for them, which actually makes me question the use of Defog on them. The basic skeleton's I've made look like this.

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 188 Spe OR 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Iron Tail/Shadow Force
- Earthquake/Aura Sphere
- Shadow Sneak/Defog/Thunder Wave/Toxic/Outrage/Will-O-Wisp

I apologize for this being a mess of slashes, I haven't had a chance to test this yet, so it's more than a bit rough around the edges. The EVs are fairly simple, the first spread outspeeds Jolly Bisharp and anything slower, while giving you a lot of attack to hit hard, the downside of this is having very little EVs left to invest in bulk. The second spread is a lot bulkier, but only outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar. For the moves, Dragon Tail is the standard move that you want to spam most of the time. It hits any neutral target incredibly hard, racks up hazards damage, and prevents the opponent from gaining any footing. The second slot is basically what I'm doing to avoid being fucked by Fairies that don't care about Dragon Tail. Iron Tail hits fairies and Ttar for just enough, with an 85% chance to 2HKO Max/Max Clefable. If you can predict the switch into a Fairy (which is honestly pretty easy most of the time) you can basically chunk it for most of its HP, or if its a Diancie or a Gardevoir straight up remove it. The downside of Iron Tail of course is that its inaccurate, and does very little to Azumarill and Klefki. Shadow Force hits incredibly hard with the given EVs, but leaves you walled by Clefable who can just stall you out with Soft-Boiled, and has similar issues with Roost Mega Altaria. The next slot is everything I can think of to avoid being screwed by Bisharp, and Ttar if you didn't opt for Iron Tail. EQ does about 85-95% with the given attack investment, but sadly will never OHKO. The perk of it I suppose is completely smashing things like Heatran. Aura Sphere OHKOs Bisharp, but with 0- SpA hits everything else really weakly. The last slot is basically me listing off everything else that can be helpful, as the three things I've discussed above hit everything you need to do. Shadow Sneak gives you general priority that still manages to hit decently hard, and more importantly smacks Gengar, the Lati twins, and Gardevoir. Defog is kind of self explanatory, you beat nearly every SR setter so Tina uses the move pretty well, but it also removes your own hazards that help when spamming Dragon Tail. Thunder Wave cripples things on the switch, and really rounds Giratina out against offense, Toxic is like a Thunder Wave for bulky teams, crippling things like Mandibuzz and Chesnaught that otherwise love to come in on Tina. Outrage hits just as hard as Shadow Force does, and since this Tina can lure in Fairies can be used to clean late game, finally Wisp can spread burn which can help to wear down the bulky teams and cripple physical attackers.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

There shouldn't be any sort of comparison's between giratina-O (ok i'm calling it G-O from now on because i'm sick of typing the name) and pokemon from the Uber's tier because that those pokemon aren't even a part of the metagame.

What does talonflame getting walled by regirock have to do with anything? Look man i'm not going to judge but you should think a little bit before u post.

Because someone brought that up as a counter-arguement to me, that is why. I am thinking, very you for jumping to conclusions. These are observations I have made while testing Giratina.

 

[Eraxxer]

252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Explosion vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 794-936 (180 - 212.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 480-566 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 546-642 (123.8 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 382-450 (86.6 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 422-500 (95.6 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 440-522 (99.7 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, OU is full of Pokemon that deal with Giratina-O and it's walling capabilities against other Pokemon will be a great addition to OU, stopping some of the more OP threats such as Beedrill and Gallade.

 

[ginganinja]

That pretty much just says we can unban ubers as long as we limit their items. If we were testing giritinas Altered form then I wouldn't have a problem, but his just feels like smogon bending their "no complex ban" rule just to "stabilize" (I use that because I feel giritina-O will just centralize the metagame around it).

We banned Gengarite and all the other Mega Stones that were deemed uber. If we were allowing like, Ho-Oh without Sacred Fire or something then yes I would agree that its direct rule bending, but due to our existing suspect test policy against items, I'm inclined to say it falls within our existing suspect guidelines.

 

[Gary]

Everyone who says I've been grasping at straws, have you even been testing it? Because I have. It is doing no better than any other OU Pokemon. It counters and has counters, but it's not that good offensively, and limited due to lack of recovery defensively.

If you have so much confidence in these incredibly bold assumptions, then I'd highly recommend posting replays proving how Giratina-O is lacking offensively. You should have dozens of good replays considering that you've been playing all day after all. If you're going to use "I've been testing this and I've been testing that" as like your only support for your arguments, then you need to back it the fuck up.

 

[SketchUp]

Because someone brought that up as a counter-arguement to me, that is why. I am thinking, very you for jumping to conclusions. These are observations I have made while testing Giratina.

I really think your observations about how to use Giratina-O are a bit wrong. You don't use Giratina as a pokemon that wants to OHKO every pokemon in the tier because you got stuff like Keldeo for that job. Giratina-O is a bulky attacker and while it can't OHKO every pokemon, it has enough bulk to switch into many pokemon, hit it for like 60%, take another hit because of its good bulk and kill it the next turn. Pokemon that aren't as bulky as Giratina can only switch in, but if they fail to KO the opponent they will be KOd in return.

 

[havokchomp123]

We don't ban mega Pokemon; we ban the mega stones.

............that's the same thing.

Because someone brought that up as a counter-arguement to me, that is why. I am thinking, very you for jumping to conclusions. These are observations I have made while testing Giratina.

Very you? Also what observations are you talking about?

 

[WebBowser]

Aegislash also has stance change as another pro, so it can have amazing offensive stats and defensive stats at different times, and while girantina has respectable attack, it's mostly just a wall. I dint know how much that matters, but I thought I should bring it up


Edit giras offensive stats are good, but aegis are higher

150/100/100 isn't that far off from 50/150/150 tbh

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 194-230 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 270-318 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In fact, it would seem that Giratina has more bulk on both ends of the equation. Let's see how they pan out on the offensive end of things:

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 54-64 (15.8 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 54-63 (15.8 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 63-75 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO

So if aegis wants to have better offensive stats then giratina-o, he needs a boosting item, which means forgoing lefties.

Given that the difference in the two's bulk is relatively similar to the differences between the two's offensive stats, I'd consider them equal from a pure BST point of view(barring speed, I demonstrated the importance of base 90 vs base 50 in my previous post, it's significant).

It's also worth noting that due to base 50 hp and base 50 speed, aegis basically needed HP investment (barring scarf lure sets). Giratina-O, on the other hand, can actually do without hp investment due to having 441 hp uninvested (more then 252 hp mew!). This allows him to either invest in defenses, speed, and/or offenses as the user pleases, basically making him the OU equivalent of Arceus in terms of being able to pull off pretty much any set he darn well pleases.

Incidentally, this also separates him from hydreigon, who lacked the bulk to be able to completely forgo hp investment and still expect to take hits (because he could never take hits in the first place...)

 

[Jeronado]

Initial thoughts. I'm not really too keen on this idea.

Giratina-O reminds me way to much of Aegislash, where it just blanket checks a huge portion of the tier with very little reason not to run it. Why wouldn't I run a mon that checks Landorus, Keldeo, Mega Metagross, and Charizard Y in one slot, all while providing team support with Defog / Will-o-wisp, and spamming Ghost type moves. And it doesn't even take up a Mega slot.

I'm still interested in seeing how this suspect goes. Ladder should be fun I guess.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

You know what, you guys are so adamant that it is broken without even testing it. Yih just run your calcs, and sat "oh yeah, broken " I've been testing it, and I'm an idiot. So yeah this is why I don't participate in these discussions. You are so set that something is broken, you won't listen. So I'm done here, I will continue testing it, and hope that it gets brought down. Because OU is so stale and needs something new.

 

[havokchomp123]

You know what, you guys are so adamant that it is broken without even testing it. Yih just run your calcs, and sat "oh yeah, broken " I've been testing it, and I'm an idiot. So yeah this is why I don't participate in these discussions. You are so set that something is broken, you won't listen. So I'm done here, I will continue testing it, and hope that it gets brought down. Because OU is so stale and needs something new.

Can u just chill out man. First off no one is calling you an idiot. Second, many of us have tested this thing, don't start jumping to any conclusions. Third, many are in favor of unbanning this thing, i am, so don't think your alone on this. It's just that you haven't been using very convincing arguments to support your statement and that is why ur getting flak.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

You know what, you guys are so adamant that it is broken without even testing it. Yih just run your calcs, and sat "oh yeah, broken " I've been testing it, and I'm an idiot. So yeah this is why I don't participate in these discussions. You are so set that something is broken, you won't listen. So I'm done here, I will continue testing it, and hope that it gets brought down. Because OU is so stale and needs something new.

The problem is, you are not proving any evidence to back up your statement. You don't come into an argument and say, I am right, you are wrong without giving reasons for it. It just is not a proper debate if you don't.

 

[-gizmo-]

At this point in time (new toy syndrome aside) I still feel that Giratina will be heavily centralizing force in the current metagame. Raw bulk and typing aside, it just has SO MANY OPTIONS. I was playing with a cm 3 attacks set today and honestly it performed so well, still being able to use its defensive typing and raw bulk, but also boosting to powerful stat numbers and destroying all archetypes(punches decent holes in stall)
I still feel like people will abuse it because it is one of those blanket-check centralizing pokemon that you can't help but splash on, but hey, it's fun to use!