np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[Mr. Hothead]

Let me go through all of these "common" weaknesses:

Ice: Used on some Electrics as a Hidden Power (ooh so intimidating) and few viable mons are both Ice type and good. The only 2 i can think of is Mamo and Weavile. Also Icy wind lol.

Dark: Knock Off, arguably the most common Dark type move, is not as strong due to Griseous orb being "un knock off able" and Bisharp cant switch into Giratina most of the time because it fears Aura Sphere or a sub.

Fairy: well its a dragon i would suppose its weak to fairies. honestly this isnt a big shocker. Lets also remember that there are only like 5 viable fairies and most are Megas, forcing you to pick a mega based on a Fairy, therefore increasing overcentralization. (Also Shadow Ball aint nothing to fuck with) I mean, using Clef is fine, but it really stops momentum for HO and hates Iron tail.

Dragon: Sure, dragons. Too bad none of the dragons can switch into this thing (besides Malt obv) and such.

Ghost: Theres literally one ghost type in this meta and its Gengar (oops forgot msab). I really dont know any other common and viable mon that runs a ghost type move viably.

Seriously, the weakness argument is bullshit, however there are some good points for pro unban.


This thing is a fucking wall that checks so much shit. This is like 3 walls combined in one. Srn's list described how fucking ridiculous it is. I'm overall mixed tho. We do need a lando I check, but at the cost of having a rather unfair offensive tank?

 

[Mr.378]

This is a very interesting idea for a suspect test. I, and maybe a few others, have thought that Giratina-O could be tested in OU. It may not be right for the meta, but it isn an interesting experiment at least. It is an uber cover legend, but one of the lesser ones because it has limitations. It can only hold it's orb even though megas have that same problem and the orb is strictly better then the stones, it has no healing move outside of rest and pain split both of which have limitations, and it has good offenses but only good because the ability to boost them is limited. These factors make it an interesting prospect to see how Giratina fares in OU.

However I still don't necessarily buy it staying here. It still seems a bit too good for the metagame. Itc an check most of the pokeon used in the tier due to its great bulk and phenomenal movepool. It has around 20-25 viable moves and 10 or so useable sets which is insane for something with so little opportunity cost. It is in a way the strongest pokemon at playing hazard games because can be one of, if not the best defoggers in the tier, it can phase in two different ways while maintaining bulk and healing with roar/dragon tail/rest/sleep talk, and it can spin block and win against every spinner in the game. It can be a massive offensive threat using great coverage that can hit just about anything hard on both physically and specially. It can also boost using calm mind and three attacks or sub. It is also one of the best pivot pokemon due to it's great defenses, tying, and access to status moves and phasing. These are just some of the things Giratina-O can do in for a team. It is so strong and versatile that it will probably be used on every team due to how little reason there is not to use it. It will become like like Primal-Groudon is in ubers, except this has more reason for it's banishment due to how OU works.

Overall I think that while suspecting Giratina-O serves as a nice experiment it should ultimately remain banned. Though right now I still am looking throughal l of the options it proivdes. they are great in number and it probably has even more potential then we realize.

 

[Empress]

Look I don't know why people are treating this as a joke, but Giratina-O gives us a great opportunity to let us balance the metagame.

Our suspect policy of banning pokemon considered "broken" from the tier has really left our tier in a shitty state at the moment, and I am glad the OU council is turning a new leaf and reintroducing pokemon previously banned from the tier. Game Freak designed the game so that no pokemon isn't truly uncounterable and the council has meddled with game balance so much that we constantly find ourselves having to ban things. If we as a community just toughed out some of the overbearing pokemon earlier in this generation, hell even dropped down some ubers like Shaymin-Sky forme which only has 600 BST, we could see the metagame in a balanced state along with a smaller banlist.

When you really think about it, it is arbitrary to have powerful mega-pokemon like Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garchomp in the tier, but keep box-cover legendaries banned in OU. Both Mega-Metagross and Mega-Garcomp have base stat totals of 700+ with better abilities than Giratina-O, and the metagame is able to adapt and handle them just fine. Hell, Kyurem-B was an exception to this rule last generation and it was balanced last generation and this generation, even though it has 700 BST and an unrestricted item. Giratina-O has to restrict itself to Griseous Orb, much like the Mega-Pokemon have to stick with their mega-stone, and it has a smaller 680 BST.

Giratina-O should be allowed in the metagame not only because it can counter and check some huge threats like Landorus-I, Mega-Metagross, Keldeo, and Mega-Lopunny, but also because it is a first step in changing Smogon's current tiering policy that (unfortunately) leaves many pokemon unjustly banned and unavailable to competitive play.

We shouldn't restrict ourselves to some middle-school playground "Mewtwo is banned!" style policies, we're better than that.

Doughboy, I know that you're a well-respected community member, but I disagree pretty strongly with what you have outlined here.

BST is a total non-factor in determining a Pokemon's brokenness. Shaymin-S was banned unanimously all the way back in BW, and with good reason: high Speed alongside Serene Grace meant it had almost zero switch-ins to Seed Flare, and it could abuse Air Slash to the point of complete uncompetitiveness.

Comparing Giratina-O's mandatory use of Griseous Orb to a Mega Stone is comparing apples to oranges. You're only allowed a single Mega Pokemon on your team, while there is little opportunity cost of using Giratina-O. Mega Garchomp is also a poor example because of such opportunity cost of using it. It's B- in viability for good reason: the Speed drop and inability to use a different Mega. Cube also isn't the best example; what holds it back is its shitty defensive typing, low-ish Speed, and barren physical movepool. What exactly holds Giratina-O back besides the fact that it must hold Griseous Orb? It has the bulk and defensive typing, in addition to the offenses and movepool, to check much more than it is intended to; I'm kind of strapped for time so I won't go in depth about what Giratina-O can smash depending on the set it runs. Check this post by Sweep b/c he said it in a better way than I ever could. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ss-round-3-ghosts.3533937/page-3#post-6133286

Moreover, Smogon does not put broken mons into OU to check other broken mons. I recall this being brought up in either the Aegislash or Mega Maw suspect test; I don't recall which one.

Don't take this as a personal attack; I do not have the right to do that. It's just that the fact that such a respected player can use such reasoning to justify the unbanning of Giratina-O is concerning to me. I personally don't have a strong opinion here; though I am leaning towards keeping Giratina-O in Ubers, I am not opposed to letting it back into OU if it turns out to not check more than it's intended to. However, if this is the reason why Giratina-O should be unbanned, I'm worried.

EDIT: Get ninja'd, I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM

 

[trc]

i don't get it

yes you can argue on about how giratina-o checks a lot of the more dangerous parts of the meta, bringing ~balance~ and that we should be more open-minded, and tbh i personally think giratina-o would be fun to use, but this is ridiculous. in a time when the meta is at a particular low due to matchup issues and various insane pokemon it may seem like a good idea to radically change it by giving the meta a shot with something that may supposedly bring ~balance~ but in reality it's just another overpowered threat which makes the meta even worse. i was prepared not to even post in this thread because i assumed it was something to be revealed on april fools ha ha joke xDDD except it was posted about on facebook which usually wouldn't be considered for an april fools joke for fear of the backlash. even ignoring the massive offensive potential it has with insane stats and heaps of moves, ignoring its incredible bulk and typing for blanket checking a ton of the tier and firing off strong moves and burns in return (sound familiar anyone??? (minus the burns ofc)), it's still a fucking bulky ghost-type which is not what we want in a meta where hazard removal was finally thriving. bye defensive starmie, i guess it doesn't matter though now that metagross has even less counters since we can just giratina to check that too.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

alright, i'll just say why we cant let this thing in OU

its overcentralizing as fuck(lol @ blanket checking 2/3rds of the meta)
it brings the exact opposite of what we are aiming for by bringing it down(bringing variety in team styles), because it's such a defensive behemoth. if we bring it down expect a large increase in stall.
the last, and most important part: we do not bring things down from ubers to check broken mons. you say we bring it down to beat lando-i, keldeo, etc. but really, anyone with a bit of common sense and adhering to smogons policy would rather ban the problems rather than bring down an even bigger problem(i dont even think any of them are broken!)

obvious april fools joke, it literally cant get more obvious apart from mega ray or some shit

 

[CactusCacti]

Honestly checking at how Giratina-O plays out in general, and how it has been in the limbo state for quite a while, I kinda think this suspect is one of the most intresting ones OU has done in a while.
Gira-O is so verstile that it can work in nearly all team types, yet it still has distinct weaknesses such as its item slot and its typing making it weak to multiple threats in OU.

This suspect is bit like kyubi, a strong mon with big BST that seems scary, but yet, when you really look into it, it kinda isn't as scary as it seems.
Giratina-O might be bulky and has nice stats, but they really do not touch the extremes that many other mons do, Gira-O is just... Verstile. It CAN do many roles, its very solid, but due of its many faults, it has issues doing very specilized roles.

So honestly, I kinda hope Gira-O ends up being OU cause it would be a big boon to balanced teams, while still being useful in other team archeotypes aswell.
Only thing that worries me is that Gira-O might be bit too verstile and become overcentralizing due of its ability to fit in too well, but that is still hard to say this early on.

That's pretty my two cents on this.

 

[WebBowser]

After a bit of testing I've found the giratina-mmeta-chansey core to be really really friggen strong. Everyone keeps talking about how Giratina is bad due to no recovery, but due to the fact that he switches into at least 4 out of 6 pokemon on any given team without any trouble, I've had no issues getting off multiple wish passes. I don't have any great replays yet, but I'll share a not-so-great one.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221670551

Basically just shows mmeta, chansey, and giratina completely cock blocking an enemy team (also, serene grace CM blissey best mon, js)

*edit*

I've been trying out this set with scolipede on the ladder:

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Shadow Ball
- Rest
- Calm Mind

Basicly the crocune of OU. If you lack phazing it's extremely difficult to stop. If scolipede fails to baton pass, giratina itself can handle things on it's own.

I don't have too many good replays since most of the opponents I got matched up with had teams consisting of UU pokemon.. -_- but I do have this one replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221660123

You have done me proud RoyalDispenser . Thank you for showing how ludicrous Giratina-O is on BP. I may consider trying to revive my scolipass team again.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

yea i seriously dont understand why people think checking (or blanket checking) 2/3's of the meta is a good thing.

Being a wall is fine, but being a wall with amazing offensive abilities isnt. A base 90 speed tier isnt bad either, outspeeding many threats like Bisharp and Heatran. But this thing is so broken with its amazing movepool and bulk and offensive capabilities. This is probably an april fools joke because who the hell would want Giratina in OU? Its basically a faster Aegislash on paper, except it has less checks and more things it checks. Now add a better movepool and a better stat disribution and you have Giratina. He can handle nearly all of his checks because of its godly movepool (Iron tail, Aura Sphere, etc.) and now people are resorting to shit like CM Blissey and Chansey which is probably the funniest thing ive heard for trying to check a broken mon in a tier. You guys wanted a better metagame then the shitstain it is now, but in return you will get an even shittier metagame because you wanted a counter to Lando I.

 

[SergioRules]

I've been testing with this and I've noticed one thing that has made me lose several battles.

Gliscor.

Giratina can't do much to this thing unless it has and can get off a Draco Meteor. Honestly, while playing around for the majority of the day, I saw how many things really can hold their own against Gira-O. I started off being horribly opposed to letting this thing into OU but as it was playable it seemed more realistic. Maybe if Shadow Force is banned it could work, as 120 BP move with a 20% boost plus STAB that can kill almost anything bar Normal types and ferro is very scary.

 

[QuickBH]

SergioRules Yeah Gliscor works wonders against Giratina-O, I can definitely see Sp.D SD varients become very popular and very good.

I'm not going to post much due to my limited experiences, but we all have experiences of a few hours anyways so whatever. Giratina-O atm doesn't seem all that bad. It may CHECK a lot of the meta, but versus at-least bulky offense the lack of recovery is actually a major problem as hazards remain a threat to it and it cannot switch-in repeatedly. It has checks like Gliscor and I can see Lum Bisharp rising to become a good check as well. Besides that though, the obvious fairies are great checks and Pokemon that are strong relatively fast like Gengar and Latios prevent HO from having to rely solely on a Fairy-type Pokemon. (Shadow Sneak isn't that common and even then it doesn't kill) Not going to lie, it's an excellent Pokemon, but it has too much of a recovery issue thanks to the fact that it has to carry Griesous Orb, and Rest only works (so far) on dedicated stall teams.

I'm currently all for releasing him out of the Dimension World Ubers. Looks broken and "checks 2/3 of the meta" on paper, but you still need back-up for Giratina-O against common threats such as Keldeo, Charizard-Y, etc. or else it will be whittled down quickly (much faster than Aegislash if you want to go that route) and it will only be able to get off a good Shadow Ball once if you don't have enough back-up.

 

[Magcargo]

I really am surprised to see a huge amount of complaining regarding this suspect test. Yes Giratina-O "Blanket checks" 2/3s of the metagame, but its lack of passive recovery prevents it from doing it reliably at all. In practice, Giratina-O is going to get worn down fast by SR, Toxic damage, Sand, Scald burns, etc. and has no reliable way of recovering from this at all by itself. Not only that, but it suffers from sitting at a middling speed tier, meaning often it will often have to take two hits before retaliating, as well as 4MSS, as Giratina-O cannot run all the moves it would like to on the same set (although to its credit, it does give Giratina-O a huge amount of versatility and allow it to put a huge strain from a teambuilding standpoint).

I'm not saying Giratina-O isn't broken (personally, I believe quite the contrary), but the amount of backlash from the community is ridiculous. The OU council wouldn't just suspect Giratina-O to create a huge controversy within the community and defy the rules they themselves created regarding suspect test (unbanning broken threat x to check broken threat y). They were well aware of Giratina-O's key strengths and key limitations before deciding to suspect test the Pokemon and most likely came to the conclusion that it has enough limitations to be balanced in OU. Even if Giratina-O turns out to be broken, the players who have decided to ladder and earn the reqs (as well as gain experience fighting the Pokemon) can vote to ban it. Obviously if Giratina-O is as broken as players are making it out to be, then it would receive a 66% majority vote required to ban it and be gone from ou, no? This is simply an experiment the OU council is performing and the amount of backlash the community is giving them for something that's not even official is unacceptable.

 

[Snowy]

I was very intrigued that when I stumbled on to Smogon this morning and saw that a thread for the suspect test of Giratina-O had been posted. I decided that since I had some free time that I would provide my evaluation of the inclusion of Giratina-O in the current OU meta, so without further a do I stall begin.

From reading the mixed debates on whether Giratina-O is healthy or not for our meta, I was able to collect my thoughts and evaluate the pros and cons of its potential future involvement in OU. From what I have found its seems the pros and cons are on par and way an equal balance in benefiting or aggravating the meta, ill list some of the main ones here:

Pros:

1. Provides a reliable answer to the current over centralizing power houses that break apart teams like Landorus-I, Keldeo and Zard Y
2. Does not distinguish any ability to hinder the meta through offensive or defensive means. Offensively, this due to the fact that its potential viable offensive sets are rather underwhelming and outclassed even with its great typing and attack stats, as they don't provide any significant or different goals that other Pokemon can achieve and/or do better, its ability does not support it in an offensive position and the item restriction holds back its ability to catch up to the power and speed crept Pokemon of the tier. Defensively, although it has great supporting moves backed up by great stats, it lacks versatility with the only viable options I see being that of Defog/ Will-o-Wisp/ Dragon STAB/ Ghost STAB with the potential alterations with its coverage, lack of reliable recovery enables it to be worn down turn per turn and it has a variety or weaknesses that are seen carried on most teams.
3. Provides and effective solider to fight against the war on centralization of hazard as it is able to effectively provide itself many switch in opportunities due to its great bulk and three immunity's and then use Defog.

Cons:

1. As Clone stated Giratina-O has the ability to blanket checks a large proportion of the meta. Although I stated in the pros that one of beneficial things to the meta is the the ability to check huge threats like Landorus-I and Zard Y, It also has the ability to stop a large portion of the meta even with it considerable "Bad" or "Restrictive" defensive typing due to having a total of five weakness that a commonly seen on most teams. This fact could be hindering to the growth of the meta.
2. It has access to three immunity's which can be very restricting on decision making during a game. Although being weak to five types isn't normally something you want on a defensive being, the fact that it has four immunity's is insane and will force many of players to be put into tight of uncomfortable positions during games, as not gaining momentum through double switches or volt-turn will lead to a potential harmful free switch for Giratina-O.
3. Although Giratina-O may seem predictable in the ways it may function, that does not mean its move pool and sets are predictable. In fact it has a very diverse move pool that can handle a look of threats in the meta.

I know this wasn't the most in depth review of the Giratina-O's potential effect on the meta, but I believe I was able to highlight some of key features and effects on the meta for both sides of the argument. As it stands my personal view on the matter is bound to change at any given time especially after becoming more familiar with the suspect ladder and how it plays. At the mean time I have a neutral positioning with a slight tilt toward keeping it ban.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Honestly checking at how Giratina-O plays out in general, and how it has been in the limbo state for quite a while, I kinda think this suspect is one of the most intresting ones OU has done in a while.
Gira-O is so verstile that it can work in nearly all team types, yet it still has distinct weaknesses such as its item slot and its typing making it weak to multiple threats in OU.

This suspect is bit like kyubi, a strong mon with big BST that seems scary, but yet, when you really look into it, it kinda isn't as scary as it seems.
Giratina-O might be bulky and has nice stats, but they really do not touch the extremes that many other mons do, Gira-O is just... Verstile. It CAN do many roles, its very solid, but due of its many faults, it has issues doing very specilized roles.

So honestly, I kinda hope Gira-O ends up being OU cause it would be a big boon to balanced teams, while still being useful in other team archeotypes aswell.
Only thing that worries me is that Gira-O might be bit too verstile and become overcentralizing due of its ability to fit in too well, but that is still hard to say this early on.

That's pretty my two cents on this.

Okay, first off, its item slot isn't that big of a weakness. It's a free Draco Plate and Spooky Plate that can never be Knocked Off, and Knock Off will therefore never get a power increase against Giratina, nerfing the most common Dark type attack right from the start. Sure, it misses Lefties a little bit, but it can get on fine without them.

"It's typing makes it weak to multiple threats in OU."

Oh, really? Let's review Mr. Hothead's excellent post on the subject.

Let me go through all of these "common" weaknesses:

Ice: Used on some Electrics as a Hidden Power (ooh so intimidating) and few viable mons are both Ice type and good. The only 2 i can think of is Mamo and Weavile. Also Icy wind lol.

Dark: Knock Off, arguably the most common Dark type move, is not as strong due to Griseous orb being "un knock off able" and Bisharp cant switch into Giratina most of the time because it fears Aura Sphere or a sub.

Fairy: well its a dragon i would suppose its weak to fairies. honestly this isnt a big shocker. Lets also remember that there are only like 5 viable fairies and most are Megas, forcing you to pick a mega based on a Fairy, therefore increasing overcentralization. (Also Shadow Ball aint nothing to fuck with) I mean, using Clef is fine, but it really stops momentum for HO and hates Iron tail.

Dragon: Sure, dragons. Too bad none of the dragons can switch into this thing (besides Malt obv) and such.

Ghost: Theres literally one ghost type in this meta and its Gengar (oops forgot msab). I really dont know any other common and viable mon that runs a ghost type move viably.

Seriously, the weakness argument is bullshit, however there are some good points for pro unban.


This thing is a fucking wall that checks so much shit. This is like 3 walls combined in one. Srn's list described how fucking ridiculous it is. I'm overall mixed tho. We do need a lando I check, but at the cost of having a rather unfair offensive tank?

Thank you for that excellent post Mr. Hothead.

On paper, Giratina's weak to a ton of stuff. In practice, it's weak to Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Clefable, Gengar, Mega Sableye, and Gliscor, as noted above. Yeah, technically speaking that's multiple threat. And as I'm sure you know, Mega Sableye, Clefable, and Gliscor are some of the best Hyper Offense Pokemon in the tier, due their natural offensive abil- no wait, they're common on BALANCED AND DEFENSIVE TEAMS. The very team archetypes that Giratina's reintroduction is supposed to diminish. Mega Altaria is common on balance as well. So, basically, Mega Diancie and Gengar are offense's answers to Giratina. Two of the most common Pokemon on offensive teams right now. I'm sorry, where's this big change up we're being promised?

And Giratina is NOTHING like Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B is allowed in OU because its stats are distributed so that its one monster attack stat has almost nothing good to use it with, and unlike Giratina, there actually ARE a shitload of common things that can counter it. Plus, it has one possible role: Wallbreaker. And you'll notice, it's STILL pretty high on the viability list right now, because it's still pretty damn good at that one role. Giratina, on the other hand? Well, it may not have quite as high offfensive or defensive stats as some other specialists in those areas, but the stats that it does have are good enough, and unlike Kyurem-B, absolutely none of them are useless, because it has a huge movepool that make it capable of pulling off pretty much any type of set near perfectly. Mixed Attacker, Special Attacker, SubCM sweeper, Offensive Tank, RestTalk, Mixed Wall...it took me about five seconds to come up with a list of six possible roles Giratina can excel at. Not just be good at. Excel at. You argue that its many flaws prevent it from doing that, but right now, I'm not seeing a whole lot of flaws. Giratina's BST may seem scary at first, but once you actually sit down and analyze the actual distribution of those stats, when combined with its other attributes, you'll realize that it's not scary; it's downright terrifying.

Not to mention that whether a Pokemon doesn't have as good stats as a specialist in that area is not a great argument for it not being broken anyway.By that logic, Arceus should be just fine in OU because for each of its stats, there's at least one common OU Pokemon that has a higher base value in that stat than Arceus does. You can't just look at the numbers, you have to look at the complete picture. No one wants Arceus anywhere near OU, and for very good reason.

Also, it's funny that you note in your post that Giratina will be a huge boon to Balanced teams, since one of the explicit reasons for this suspect test to begin with is that people are getting tired of seeing the same balanced teams over and over again. And if you think it's gonna be overcentralizing, why are you arguing in favor of it to begin with. Even if it's not broken (I'm pretty sure it is, but let's just pretend for the moment that it isn't), isn't sheer versatility making it nearly impossible to adequately prepare for all of its options the exact reason why Greninja was banned? Why unban something that is almost certainly going to be worse?

 

[AlphaGiratina]

I should first bring up that Giratina is my favorite Pokemon of all time EVER and OU is my preferred tier.

THAT BEING SAID I disagree with Giratina being placed in OU. The Grisceous Orb can't be removed from it, so I'm pretty sure knock off doesn't do the additional damage it would do when removing an item. It's insanely bulky without being passive (like blobs and p2), is a great support mon with Willo and Defog, avoids spikes + eq with levitate and has a nuclear Draco Meteor when you apply STAB, the 1.2 Grisceous Orb boost and his Special Attack almost as powerful as Keldeo. Giratina can be a physical attacker in OU (EQ, Dclaw, Shadow Claw/Force, Stone Edge, sneak) a Special Attacker (obvious) a mixed support mon and more. It's not like Kyurem where its move pool is actually garbage. Giratina getting status moves like Will O Wisp and Thunder Wave make it like a better Serperior in a way, where it can wreck the foe with a powerful attack or cripple a switchin, all the while eating hits. It'll also set a new precedent unheard of before for stall teams with heal bell and wish support. I will be laddering as much as possible to vote no unban (I think smogon actually considering this is insane), PLEASE don't let this monster in OU.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

My 2 cents on the Giratina-O metagame after going a few games.


Personally, I find it's effect on the metagame negative. Giratina just stops way too many pokemon.. he succeeds in his job checking the currently most broken in the tier; goth, lando, and metagross (fuck shadow tag), however he makes a large portion of the metagame unviable. I see no pokemon rising in viability because of giratina.. The only pokemon I see actually enjoying his presence is venomoth, lol, cause of being able to check giratina-O with tinted lens quiver dancing sleep powders.. but when venomoth becomes more viable than volcarona we have a problem.

Enough of venomoth though, the metagame is just horrifically stale. It's basicly just giratina and mons to support giratina.. or what giratina supports. Giratina is literally S+ rank, with everything centralizing and revolving around it.. who needs the latis, excadrill, and starmie when giratina has defog and better typing? Teambuilding is just difficult, as including a giratina check is nearly impossible without clefable becoming more centralizing.. not to mention giratina itself is a major glue to most teams.

If this was say... aegislash then it wouldn't be as big of a deal because aegislash is hard pressured by everything in the tier while still pressuring fairies and metagross.. which just leaves Lando-I who obviously should've been a suspect test a long long time ago... but in giratina's case the literal entire tier shifts dramatically.. except I don't see anything's viability rising, only dropping.

I feel shaking the tier up THIS BADLY during the gen 6 metagame (theorymoning.. but don't forget we'll be introducing even more megas and shit shortly!) is the poor choice right now. I would rather see the pokemon that are problematic just gtfo first. If lando-I is an issue, suspect it already for christ sake's how long have we been waiting and saying it's indeed broken? Don't introduce something that creates an even worse metagame.

I say keep it ubers. Unless we're going to be retesting mawile and aegislash to check it soon.

 

[Orga777]

This makes little to no sense to me. You want a ghost type from Ubers that can help balance the meta game? Bring back Aegislash, who would easily off-set a lot of what is currently going on without the hassle that Giratina would bring to the table. Giratina has a movepool so deep that it can pretty much do whatever it wants on ANY team imaginable. Defog, WoW, Draco Meteor, Sub, Shadow Force, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, EQ, Stone Edge, Shadow ball, high bulk, high attack, decent speed, Knock Off does little, it has freaking Levitate, and so much more.

Look. People are complaining about over-centralizing now, bringing in freaking Giratina-O is just going to make it worse. It has way too much utility, and has a fantastic typing and ability. With all the positives, the one negative it has is no item... big whoop. This Pokemon would fit on practically every single team without any issues at all since it can pretty much do anything the team needs it to do. That is just too crazy. People complained about other Pokemon being "hard to predict" before, but this one will take the cake. :/

 

[AM]

Lol ok if we're gonna be "serious" about this then let's stop acting like experimenting for the sake of experimenting is suppose to be a good thing. With all the threats in the tier the last thing we need is a bulky as hell ghost type with high offensive prowess that makes some of the top tier threats in the meta not seem as bad simply cause of its presence alone. Lol I'm amazed by the logic I have been reading for the current 12 pages based on a bunch of individuals trying to wrap their heads around tiering philosophy making the implication that we have to overbear the tier even more so than it's already stressed at this point.

Rofl oml the 4MSS argument once again. How many suspect tests does it take to establish that this is almost a non existent aspect on the premise that the placement, choice of moves, and the customization will always be suited to team needs based on what is going on and how the tier is going in the first place? Also Giratina isn't gonna be a "boon" to anything because it's gonna work on any team which just means all you're doing is playing the fantastic competitive game of who kills the busted threat first. I mean come on this isn't even a mega rofl and it's better than a bunch of the megas we have right now disregarding the ones people consider enormous constraints in teambuilding and "match-up".

Also if you're offended by whatever salt or backlash you're reading then chances are you're more than likely in the totally wrong sub-forum to begin with trying to find riveting, peaceful, and profoundly intellectual discussion that can always be embraced in our OU suspect tests. By all means if you got something to say address it but I wouldn't exactly be too surprised if you read something that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Read the OP for posting guidelines and let's carry on.

 

[Rumor]

jajaja happy afd everyone...

o wait this is legit well fuck,,,

here's my input.

why bring a mon that has such a huge niche in ubers, known as the 'great wall', and bring it into the overstuffed stall clusterfuck that is ou? hahaha you're right there isnt a reason why......

1. Un-Rivaled Defensive Capabilities

You can take a look at some of the most relevant mons in the meta right now: Landorus-I, Bisharp, Keldeo, Lati's, Char, Metagross. But dont most, if not all.... lose to it? i feel like we're bringing aegislash down from ubers and placing a fucking crown on top of its ethereal head. This thing will not die

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 222-264 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 169-199 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Landorus-I cant fucking touch it. You know what that means? Landorus will not be used as much, because EVERYONE WILL BE USING FUCKING GIRATINA
Latios actually OHKO's it with dmeteor if its not running any SpD/HP.
Keldeo can't touch it. unless you wanna click icy wind (lol)
Char x actually has a decent matchup vs it. well, if it can get a dragon claw off on it. or a dd on something beforehand, but lets face it. If they're using Giratina-O on stall, odds fucking are that they're going to have a quagsire.
Char Y loses to it.

Like wtf, this has to be a joke.

2. He's a pretty fucking big offensive presence.

120/120/90 is nothing to shake a stick at. You know what else has stats like that? Genesect. Only difference is 9 speed. But Genesect was also easily worn down, unlike Giratina Origin which is about as fat as -gizmo- after Turkey day.

Combined with a movepool such as: Draco, dark pulse, eq and epower, energy ball, psychic, shadow ball and force, stone edge, will-o, tbolt and tailwind. I can think of 1 mon which will be our lord and saviour vs this thing, and it is none other than:

yea thats right, my boy yung wiggles. This thing flat out walls it. Sure, you could say Audino walls it too, but who the fuck cares about some irrelevant.. fox..thing.. basically how to restrict teambuliding 101.

 

[Swagodile]

Like others have said, there are things in OU that hit harder, and lack of reliable recovery making Wish support pretty much a necessity if you want to keep it alive (unless you stand to waste your moveslots on RestTalk), all the switching in and out it does wear it down really quickly.

 

[ginganinja]

AM's just salty I rekt him with Giratina-O today.

 

[Jukain]

ginganinja

 

[AlphaGiratina]

I'll admit I do want to see Aegislash over Giratina return to OU. It would cripple a lot of the fairies running around while acting as a check to Mega Metagross. I'd at least want to see a suspect for him before Giratina anyway, he seems less centralizing in a way. We' e got things like Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert I daresay and of course Mega Sableye, in addition to Bisharp and now belly drum azu with Knock Off and Aqua Jet. I'm not saying he's not broken, but he seems to have less of a dramatic impact on the mega than the tyrannical Giratina would. This thing carpet checking the meta just isn't better than the old meta was, and I'd like to see Aegislash's effect on ORAS.
"It was banished for its violence. It silently gazed upon the old world from the Distortion World."

 

[CactusCacti]

Okay, first off, its item slot isn't that big of a weakness. It's a free Draco Plate and Spooky Plate that can never be Knocked Off, and Knock Off will therefore never get a power increase against Giratina, nerfing the most common Dark type attack right from the start. Sure, it misses Lefties a little bit, but it can get on fine without them.

"It's typing makes it weak to multiple threats in OU."

Oh, really? Let's review Mr. Hothead's excellent post on the subject.

Ice: Used on some Electrics as a Hidden Power (ooh so intimidating) and few viable mons are both Ice type and good. The only 2 i can think of is Mamo and Weavile. Also Icy wind lol.

Dark: Knock Off, arguably the most common Dark type move, is not as strong due to Griseous orb being "un knock off able" and Bisharp cant switch into Giratina most of the time because it fears Aura Sphere or a sub.

Fairy: well its a dragon i would suppose its weak to fairies. honestly this isnt a big shocker. Lets also remember that there are only like 5 viable fairies and most are Megas, forcing you to pick a mega based on a Fairy, therefore increasing overcentralization. (Also Shadow Ball aint nothing to fuck with) I mean, using Clef is fine, but it really stops momentum for HO and hates Iron tail.

Dragon: Sure, dragons. Too bad none of the dragons can switch into this thing (besides Malt obv) and such.

Ghost: Theres literally one ghost type in this meta and its Gengar (oops forgot msab). I really dont know any other common and viable mon that runs a ghost type move viably.

Thank you for that excellent post Mr. Hothead.

What a useful post you have, completely ignoring Ice Beam aka every water types coverage move of choice, Knock Off always hitting with max power cause you can't knock off the item (meaning that hey, things that run knock off for coverage or utility now also hit really fucking hard), Fairy being Fairy and like really, not running a fairy already?
Dragons & Ghost is fair enough

On paper, Giratina's weak to a ton of stuff. In practice, it's weak to Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Clefable, Gengar, Mega Sableye, and Gliscor, as noted above. Yeah, technically speaking that's multiple threat. And as I'm sure you know, Mega Sableye, Clefable, and Gliscor are some of the best Hyper Offense Pokemon in the tier, due their natural offensive abil- no wait, they're common on BALANCED AND DEFENSIVE TEAMS. The very team archetypes that Giratina's reintroduction is supposed to diminish. Mega Altaria is common on balance as well. So, basically, Mega Diancie and Gengar are offense's answers to Giratina. Two of the most common Pokemon on offensive teams right now. I'm sorry, where's this big change up we're being promised?

Cause clearly Gira can handle lot of HP chipping with its extremely great recovery of rest and its ability to outspeed so much things, which is one of the things what hinders it back.

And Giratina is NOTHING like Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B is allowed in OU because its stats are distributed so that its one monster attack stat has almost nothing good to use it with, and unlike Giratina, there actually ARE a shitload of common things that can counter it. Plus, it has one possible role: Wallbreaker. And you'll notice, it's STILL pretty high on the viability list right now, because it's still pretty damn good at that one role. Giratina, on the other hand? Well, it may not have quite as high offfensive or defensive stats as some other specialists in those areas, but the stats that it does have are good enough, and unlike Kyurem-B, absolutely none of them are useless, because it has a huge movepool that make it capable of pulling off pretty much any type of set near perfectly. Mixed Attacker, Special Attacker, SubCM sweeper, Offensive Tank, RestTalk, Mixed Wall...it took me about five seconds to come up with a list of six possible roles Giratina can excel at. Not just be good at. Excel at. You argue that its many flaws prevent it from doing that, but right now, I'm not seeing a whole lot of flaws. Giratina's BST may seem scary at first, but once you actually sit down and analyze the actual distribution of those stats, when combined with its other attributes, you'll realize that it's not scary; it's downright terrifying.

It was comparement with uber being dropped to OU, Gira shares similiar trait; Its very low used in Ubers due of its other forms superiority and having a very abuseable flaw. Like kyurem-b having no proper physical move, Gira has trouble using its good move pool with its item limitation, while as kyurem-b can use item that works for its favor of its move pool allowing it to patch up with pure power.
But really, do these roles really work at out in the game as you think they do? Do you think it can really excell at em? You lack out on coverage quite a bit when you cannot get proper item boost when attacking as you only get proper boost on your stabs, and without proper recovery, lot of these roles you listed out are pretty questionable on "excelling" at. It can do em good due of its stats, but I will still question excelling at em, sub CM will be pretty hard with lack or leftovers, and walling in general will be pretty hard without proper recovery. Crocune style sleep talk however is something I give to you, that Gira-O can pull out so well its scary.

Not to mention that whether a Pokemon doesn't have as good stats as a specialist in that area is not a great argument for it not being broken anyway.By that logic, Arceus should be just fine in OU because for each of its stats, there's at least one common OU Pokemon that has a higher base value in that stat than Arceus does. You can't just look at the numbers, you have to look at the complete picture. No one wants Arceus anywhere near OU, and for very good reason.

Arceus has amazing speed, amazing bulk, okay offense, gira-O has amazing bulk, medicore speed, okay offense. This really isn't a great choice for comparement there. Not to mention Arceus can run shit ton of specializiation due of its mechanic alone with the typing but this argument isn't gonna go anywhere and is left to ubers side really.

Also, it's funny that you note in your post that Giratina will be a huge boon to Balanced teams, since one of the explicit reasons for this suspect test to begin with is that people are getting tired of seeing the same balanced teams over and over again. And if you think it's gonna be overcentralizing, why are you arguing in favor of it to begin with. Even if it's not broken (I'm pretty sure it is, but let's just pretend for the moment that it isn't), isn't sheer versatility making it nearly impossible to adequately prepare for all of its options the exact reason why Greninja was banned? Why unban something that is almost certainly going to be worse?

I might be wrong with the balance team boon, or not, it is something up to see on the future, the thing still is; We can't tell if it will be over centralizing or not this early on.
I'm mostly in favour of Gira-O to OU cause it could be intresting to see how it plays out and cause the thing is seriously limbo stuck.
While as it is verstile, once again, Greninja isn't good comparement here again, I would more compare it to the aegislash really, while as it is verstile, unlike greninja and aegislash, Gira-O has still same ol faults, as before, unlike greninja, it cannot absolutely ohko everything, unlike aegislash, it cannot just go between extreme tank to extreme damage, it can only hop as tank with good damage output, but not on the extreme levels.

Also seriously cut the passive aggresiveness, it makes your debate annoying to look at.

 

[Maple Syrup]

Adding this to the tier will cause a complete shift in viability for so many Pokemon and it will take at least a month and a half for things to actually settle.

Personally I think its bad for a single Pokemon with no opportunity cost that can fit on every single playstyle and still be versatile and unpredictable to blanket check a large portion of the meta.

Sure it can't run every move at once. However it will have a set built to suit its teammates and to support them. Need spinblocking? Need a bulky pivot? Need a CM sweeper? Need to defog? Need an all out attacker? Need a phazer? All check. This thing fits on every team and it would be silly not to use it.

However most importantly will it balance out the meta? I am not sure, but I am leaning towards NO because it can simply do too much for any team. If anything would deserve and S+ ranking in OU, it would be G-O

 

[AlphaGiratina]

What a useful post you have, completely ignoring Ice Beam aka every water types coverage move of choice, Knock Off always hitting with max power cause you can't knock off the item (meaning that hey, things that run knock off for coverage or utility now also hit really fucking hard), Fairy being Fairy and like really, not running a fairy already?
Dragons & Ghost is fair enough





Cause clearly Gira can handle lot of HP chipping with its extremely great recovery of rest and its ability to outspeed so much things, which is one of the things what hinders it back.



It was comparement with uber being dropped to OU, Gira shares similiar trait; Its very low used in Ubers due of its other forms superiority and having a very abuseable flaw. Like kyurem-b having no proper physical move, Gira has trouble using its good move pool with its item limitation, while as kyurem-b can use item that works for its favor of its move pool allowing it to patch up with pure power.
But really, do these roles really work at out in the game as you think they do? Do you think it can really excell at em? You lack out on coverage quite a bit when you cannot get proper item boost when attacking as you only get proper boost on your stabs, and without proper recovery, lot of these roles you listed out are pretty questionable on "excelling" at. It can do em good due of its stats, but I will still question excelling at em, sub CM will be pretty hard with lack or leftovers, and walling in general will be pretty hard without proper recovery. Crocune style sleep talk however is something I give to you, that Gira-O can pull out so well its scary.



Arceus has amazing speed, amazing bulk, okay offense, gira-O has amazing bulk, medicore speed, okay offense. This really isn't a great choice for comparement there. Not to mention Arceus can run shit ton of specializiation due of its mechanic alone with the typing but this argument isn't gonna go anywhere and is left to ubers side really.



I might be wrong with the balance team boon, or not, it is something up to see on the future, the thing still is; We can't tell if it will be over centralizing or not this early on.
I'm mostly in favour of Gira-O to OU cause it could be intresting to see how it plays out and cause the thing is seriously limbo stuck.
While as it is verstile, once again, Greninja isn't good comparement here again, I would more compare it to the aegislash really, while as it is verstile, unlike greninja and aegislash, Gira-O has still same ol faults, as before, unlike greninja, it cannot absolutely ohko everything, unlike aegislash, it cannot just go between extreme tank to extreme damage, it can only hop as tank with good damage output, but not on the extreme levels.

Also seriously cut the passive aggresiveness, it makes your debate annoying to look at.

And ice beam from what water type does any damage at all to Giratina? Ice beams are his ice in his drink, his drink being your water type. This thing can take hits and return fire like nothing else in OU ATM, and it seriously restricts teambuilding. Knock Off only does the 65 damage to it because the item cannot be removed; it's basically itemless while holding a Draco and spooky plate. It's movepool is huge, and very few mons in OU can actually switch in and proceed to do something to it at all. It can cripple setup sweepers, straight OHKO frailer attackers, outlast and shuffle stall mons and constricts teambuilding. There is no reason we should allow Giratina in OU.