What the fuck nononono this is a terrible Idea now my smeargle cant run king sshield. Wtf man thats what makes it good, I put up the sticky web Then I put up the stealth rock, or if they lead with the Uturny I predict that and king shsield Easy as pie..this isnt right :(
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
- Status
Updated Kanto
Banned deucer.
I was pro unban until i decided to ladder in an aegi meta... well let me just say this holy fuck i've never played such a disgusting and aids ladder. During my laddering out of the 10 aegislash i faced, about 2 had kings shield the rest either didn't have kings shield or it wasn't even needed to create a 50/50 or to be a threat. All it needs to do is attack and basically kill something, while it might help with some frightening threats, I'd rather play a meta with these certain threats than a meta with the fucking aids sword
I haven't been playing for too long on the suspect ladder so I'll probably have a more fleshed out opinion in the future but currently I still think Aegislash is too good for OU. The idea of dropping something down from Ubers to centralize the tier a bit in an attempt to mitigate some of the matchup problems in the current metagame isn't necessarily bad, but I don't think that Aegislash achieves this in a healthy way. While it does check Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross pretty well the problem is we're actually lacking good checks to Aegislash. It has the capability to run a great number of viable sets. It can be physical, special, mixed, bulky, fully offensive, and even run sets like SubToxic to beat some of the better switch-ins to its coverage. So while it might be beneficial in the sense that it allows players to check a large majority of the metagame and reduce matchup dependency, Aegislash itself is a problem because it's just too versatile. Being rather slow is actually good for it since it can tank most hits in Shield Form very well and retaliate with a highly powerful attack.
I need to think more about the no King's Shield idea before giving my comments on that but my initial thought is it may not be enough.
I need to think more about the no King's Shield idea before giving my comments on that but my initial thought is it may not be enough.
OK i was just gonna lurk around until i saw that they are considering banning KS only, but if we ban KS isn't that just giving free turns to the opponent cuz after every turn the aegish will need to go back? also if u go 3 attacks sw version (assuming something like this will be one of the most viable sets without KS) why would i want to use aegish like that when there are ton of ofensive threats in OU already that i can choose from?
I personally do not like the idea of banning King's Shield simply due to the fact that the move is not broken on Smeargle. Usually for a move or ability to be banned, it must be broken on all Pokemon that possess said move or ability and the fact that King's shield is not broken on Smeargle somewhat contradicts this.
I'm not sure I'm too crazy about banning King's Shield. It really does nothing to address Aegislash's most defining features, which are it's meta defining typing (do you really need to be in Shield to beat a Metagross without EQ? Or a Gardevoir without SBall? Or Heracross? The list goes on.) and offensive stats + movepool. I've actually seen quite a few players opt out of KS for more coverage anyway, and it encourages the use of fast mixed attacking Aegislashes that are probably the most destructive. All this really does is kill the shitty SubToxic sets. I agree with the notion that this KS ban should be tested in a seperate ladder so we can see how this is supposed to nerf Aegislash in practice, because right now I'm not seeing it do much besides kill the two weakest pro-ban arguments.
Regarding the current test, I can't say I can make a proper judgement because all I'm seeing is people pulling out their old XY hyper offense teams. This actually irritates me a lot because it just highlights one of the system's biggest flaws that can be easily avoided if we'd all just stop being lazy fucks hungry for a few pixels under our names. The whole purpose of the suspect test is to get a taste of what the meta could be like with the suspect and vote based on our experiences in this new meta, and if everyone is just whipping out mid XY teams for easy laddering then it kind of defeats the point because right now we're basically just playing XY instead of ORAS + Aegislash.
Regarding the current test, I can't say I can make a proper judgement because all I'm seeing is people pulling out their old XY hyper offense teams. This actually irritates me a lot because it just highlights one of the system's biggest flaws that can be easily avoided if we'd all just stop being lazy fucks hungry for a few pixels under our names. The whole purpose of the suspect test is to get a taste of what the meta could be like with the suspect and vote based on our experiences in this new meta, and if everyone is just whipping out mid XY teams for easy laddering then it kind of defeats the point because right now we're basically just playing XY instead of ORAS + Aegislash.
haunter
Banned deucer.
It's arguably not broken on Aegislash either. If we decided to ban it, we'd probably justify the ban on the premise that forcing 50/50 situations detracts skill from the game, while favoring luck.
Aegislash losing King's Shield would definitely push it below that borderline, it would be much worse. It could only really do hit and run, lose to nearly all Pursuit trappers, though maybe it could still run Toxic stall. The only issue I have with that idea is the whole unconventional banning approach thing. Any approach needs to be consistent, so if we're willing to ban signature moves in order to bring things down to OU, there's no reason not to retest Darkrai without Dark Void as well. Even Deoxys-S without Psycho Boost might be a potential candidate due to its weak offenses and low base power moves. Obviously that's not related to this suspect test strictly but it is an implication of this new approach.
edit: haunter's justification above - banning moves only on the basis of uncompetitiveness rather than to make individual Pokemon less broken - might avoid this issue. But I think it would still become a bugbear
edit: haunter's justification above - banning moves only on the basis of uncompetitiveness rather than to make individual Pokemon less broken - might avoid this issue. But I think it would still become a bugbear
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In all honestly, this could remove Aegislash's purpose in the OU metagame. Almost the whole reason (atleast I think) why Aegislash was moved to Ubers was of King's Shield. Without it, it stays in Blade-Forme until you switch out. It removes the ability to use things like Toxic sets. This imo would not be OU material, maybe UU.
In response to the King's Shield proposition, I'd like to note that while watching comp ladder to be the 1st person to get reqs, it feels like a large chunk of the top ladder either isn't running KS or is avoiding using it at all costs. Most of the time I saw Aegis played it went down without ever reverting back to Shield mode (other than switching) because of the massive opportunity cost of letting your opponent get a free and sometimes gamechanging turn, rather than just playing it safe and attacking again or switching. If Aegis DID go back to Shield mode, it was because it was because the game state had progressed to a point where there was no risk involved for doing so (as in the opponent couldn't punish KS in a way that would change the outcome of the game even if they read it), or it was against Bisharp/Lopunny with very few exceptions.
As much as people are discussion how "powerful" the move is for how many 50/50 situations it creates, actual games between good players seem to argue otherwise. KS' "mindgames" don't seem to matter nearly as much in higher levels of play as the cost of being read and your opponent gaining free turns starts outweighing the benefits King's Shield brings. AFAIK, Aegi's shield mode in itself reducing damage taken isn't the point that's being argued as broken, so unless someone can pull a VERY STRONG ARGUMENT that higher reliability in Bisharp and Lopunny (and I suppose maybe some other more obscure mons where the 50/50s do actually matter) to beat Aegis is an incredibly defining reason in the difference between Aegis' OU vs Uber status, banning KS is nothing short of complete crap. If you'd vote to unban Aegis only on the condition of banning King's Shield BECAUSE OF THE 50/50s and NOT because of the stat gain in shield mode, then you're just fooling yourself into thinking KS is way stronger than it is, and it that case should just be voting unban because the 50/50s Aegis introduce aren't any more intrusive than the ones we already have to deal with.
If you think KS providing the boosted defenses is also a broken aspect, then you should probably vote ban anyways since Aegis really doesn't lose that at high levels except in the conditions where the opposing team doesn't have anything left alive that can do meaningful damage to a last mon Aegislash.
Either way, adding the KS vote is bullshit. Reasons to allow Aegislash without King's Shield are nothing but theories that haven't actually held up in ladder play. Any reasoning you'd want to ban KS over Aegis implies Aegis as a whole is or isn't broken. The absolute best case scenario for having a "Ban KS" option will probably be is tearing enough votes away from Ubers or OU votes to end up forcing a revote from the people in that group, and we all know what happened last time when we allowed Aegis is get revoted on...
As much as people are discussion how "powerful" the move is for how many 50/50 situations it creates, actual games between good players seem to argue otherwise. KS' "mindgames" don't seem to matter nearly as much in higher levels of play as the cost of being read and your opponent gaining free turns starts outweighing the benefits King's Shield brings. AFAIK, Aegi's shield mode in itself reducing damage taken isn't the point that's being argued as broken, so unless someone can pull a VERY STRONG ARGUMENT that higher reliability in Bisharp and Lopunny (and I suppose maybe some other more obscure mons where the 50/50s do actually matter) to beat Aegis is an incredibly defining reason in the difference between Aegis' OU vs Uber status, banning KS is nothing short of complete crap. If you'd vote to unban Aegis only on the condition of banning King's Shield BECAUSE OF THE 50/50s and NOT because of the stat gain in shield mode, then you're just fooling yourself into thinking KS is way stronger than it is, and it that case should just be voting unban because the 50/50s Aegis introduce aren't any more intrusive than the ones we already have to deal with.
If you think KS providing the boosted defenses is also a broken aspect, then you should probably vote ban anyways since Aegis really doesn't lose that at high levels except in the conditions where the opposing team doesn't have anything left alive that can do meaningful damage to a last mon Aegislash.
Either way, adding the KS vote is bullshit. Reasons to allow Aegislash without King's Shield are nothing but theories that haven't actually held up in ladder play. Any reasoning you'd want to ban KS over Aegis implies Aegis as a whole is or isn't broken. The absolute best case scenario for having a "Ban KS" option will probably be is tearing enough votes away from Ubers or OU votes to end up forcing a revote from the people in that group, and we all know what happened last time when we allowed Aegis is get revoted on...
My gripe about King shield is it is too narrow for a blanket ban, moreover Aegislash's ability makes using it significantly different from what Smeargle could possibly do using said move. There is not much to say since it is just too much a work around of a ban for something targets one mon specifically, Smeargle really shouldn't count since aside from not changing stances he doesn't have the typing or stats to really make it work.
If you're going for a blanket ban I'd expect that it actually implicates a lot more pokemon using the move, not just one in specific. In this case it is obviously only one mon, whose ability reacts in a unique way to the move, that needs to be considered so a blanket ban is just skirting around the issue. Why complicate something relatively simple?
If you're going for a blanket ban I'd expect that it actually implicates a lot more pokemon using the move, not just one in specific. In this case it is obviously only one mon, whose ability reacts in a unique way to the move, that needs to be considered so a blanket ban is just skirting around the issue. Why complicate something relatively simple?
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Alright, now to actually get to my thoughts on the KS ban... personally I find it unnecessary, I like that aegislash will basically become a mixed doublade at this point, however I don't really see the issue with KS as a whole. KS makes or breaks aegislash, one of the best methods of countering aegislash is to abuse the setup/status opportunity as he KSes. Without it, he has 0 viable sets, jolly life orb is it but it's not meta-defining enough since it's simply just a lure set for it's original checks, bisharp and mandi which can work around with simple nature changes. He has to play a hit and run tatic, which is pretty huge and hindering to him. Lopunny can now 90% counter him (can't switch in) and freely attack. Aegislash is much easier to pursuit trap and threaten with scarf t-tar, and sub-toxic is extremely difficult to pull off without KS since it can no longer stall (other than protect but not the same thing). Even zard x or azumaril can still freely sweep and do damage knowing there is no drawbacks anymore.
Personally, I'll still be voting to unban aegislash, but keep ks however aegislash is completely useless without the move to the point any pro-ban arguments for the mon to stay ubes that banning isn't even a logical answer period unless we want rid of doublade as well... I'd glady take aegislash losing KS and staying OU, but I'd prefer him keep KS and staying OU.
Personally, I'll still be voting to unban aegislash, but keep ks however aegislash is completely useless without the move to the point any pro-ban arguments for the mon to stay ubes that banning isn't even a logical answer period unless we want rid of doublade as well... I'd glady take aegislash losing KS and staying OU, but I'd prefer him keep KS and staying OU.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Aegislash isn't completely useless without King's Shield because it can still switch into stuff like Celebi and Lati@s and hit them with a Shadow Ball / Pursuit. You are definitely weaker to pursuit trappers and revengekillers but 150 / 150 offenses are far from bad so offensive sets will still be pretty good w/o KS. Just pointing that out.
haunter
Off topic, but may I ask how exactly we may see a suspect test for KSless aegislash? KS does turn a lot of pokemon from being checks, to counters to aegislash, and aegislash from being an answer to those pokemon... for example azumaril can still do what it wants, and it can't be stopped by aegislash.. zard x can sweep, mega scizor can roost stall and setup with knock off, I'd really like to see the metagame without aegislash having KS as it'd be surprisingly different from the one with aegislash having it. All aegislash has going for it at this point is the typing and mixed stats.. which didn't deem altaria or diancie ubers yet.
Off topic, but may I ask how exactly we may see a suspect test for KSless aegislash? KS does turn a lot of pokemon from being checks, to counters to aegislash, and aegislash from being an answer to those pokemon... for example azumaril can still do what it wants, and it can't be stopped by aegislash.. zard x can sweep, mega scizor can roost stall and setup with knock off, I'd really like to see the metagame without aegislash having KS as it'd be surprisingly different from the one with aegislash having it. All aegislash has going for it at this point is the typing and mixed stats.. which didn't deem altaria or diancie ubers yet.
But even so, aegislash is stuck in blade form, celebi and latis threaten him with lure EQ/EP used for heatran. He can shadow sneak, but even then you can switch into a reliable answer like lando.
The thing is without KS the only viable sets its prolly going to be the offensive ones and since they will be more anticipated than they are now they will be more easily countered, also like u said it will be much easier to pursuit trap it and also without KS a lot of pokes that just check t now and can be controled via KS will become hard check and even counters with the removal of KS, also in most cases it would be only able to come in hit and then switch out giving free turns to opponents to do what they want.
I honestly never considered the 50/50 a legit argument. While there might be a few more variants on aegislash when it has gained momentum it feels like a terrible argument to be honest, or at least a bland one.
Aegislash is the monster he is due to its great typing allowing it to gain momentum easily and it's ability to force switches given said typing and potential offences with good neutral coverage.
Crippling aegis by removing kingshield from its arsenal would make him a one switch in wonder... Wich kills it whole purpose of switching in reliably instead of having that option as a lure, this is coming from a guy who liked to use CB aegis in XY and 4 attacks LO HP Ice on the rise of spdef gliscor, chessnaugth and AV amongus(It eased prediction and worked so don't judge)...Slaking 2.0 in the free turn department.
Removing kingshield for a one time check is just unnecessary, we don't need that at all, it barely serves the offensive pivot ability and pretty much feels like a publicity stunt to justify the drop of a crippled "cancerous" element on the metagame.
I know we should discuss aegislash here but adding the blanket check feels like a forced move to avoid further suspects and I'm honestly scared about what kind of precedent we will leave with a move ban to not even allow a pokemon to perform it's role efficiently. I'm not talking about future bans, I'm talking about our future stand on the clauses and justifications we will use on future suspects.
Honestly if we resort to this practices what will follow next. I know I'm jumping the gun in my assumptions calling that move a publicity stunt but even tough I'm pro no aegislash in OU for this suspect, I feel this is not what our metagame needs nor will fix the team match up issues people seem to be addressing so far.
Aegislash is the monster he is due to its great typing allowing it to gain momentum easily and it's ability to force switches given said typing and potential offences with good neutral coverage.
Crippling aegis by removing kingshield from its arsenal would make him a one switch in wonder... Wich kills it whole purpose of switching in reliably instead of having that option as a lure, this is coming from a guy who liked to use CB aegis in XY and 4 attacks LO HP Ice on the rise of spdef gliscor, chessnaugth and AV amongus(It eased prediction and worked so don't judge)...Slaking 2.0 in the free turn department.
Removing kingshield for a one time check is just unnecessary, we don't need that at all, it barely serves the offensive pivot ability and pretty much feels like a publicity stunt to justify the drop of a crippled "cancerous" element on the metagame.
I know we should discuss aegislash here but adding the blanket check feels like a forced move to avoid further suspects and I'm honestly scared about what kind of precedent we will leave with a move ban to not even allow a pokemon to perform it's role efficiently. I'm not talking about future bans, I'm talking about our future stand on the clauses and justifications we will use on future suspects.
Honestly if we resort to this practices what will follow next. I know I'm jumping the gun in my assumptions calling that move a publicity stunt but even tough I'm pro no aegislash in OU for this suspect, I feel this is not what our metagame needs nor will fix the team match up issues people seem to be addressing so far.
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I've made up my mind on banning KS:
Since Aegislash can't use protect to change forms, I still think Aegislash should be banned for the following reasons:
- Kings Shield isn't banworthy in it's own right (debatable, tbh, but not completely borked).
- Aegislash without access to KS isn't really the same 'mon in my eyes, it seems pretty useless and prone to everything not below it's base speed.
- It doesn't really make the meta better, a meta with non-KS Aegi will just be a meta with a struggling-to-be-OU mon, it doesn't balance the meta as it needs KS for much of the stuff it checks.
- I think Aegi with KS is bad for the meta, borderline broken tbh.
I can't see banning KS as anything but a joke option. What can non KS Aegi actually run effectively? SD 3 attacks, weird choice sets and 4 attacks LO? If protect activated KS, I would support this option, but it doesn't, and I can't see a point in it at all. It's just silly. I'd rather have KS Aegi back than non KS Aegi, the move doesn't warrant a ban and it seems more like changing a game mechanic of stance change, by making it a one-way form change when attacking.
Since Aegislash can't use protect to change forms, I still think Aegislash should be banned for the following reasons:
- Kings Shield isn't banworthy in it's own right (debatable, tbh, but not completely borked).
- Aegislash without access to KS isn't really the same 'mon in my eyes, it seems pretty useless and prone to everything not below it's base speed.
- It doesn't really make the meta better, a meta with non-KS Aegi will just be a meta with a struggling-to-be-OU mon, it doesn't balance the meta as it needs KS for much of the stuff it checks.
- I think Aegi with KS is bad for the meta, borderline broken tbh.
I can't see banning KS as anything but a joke option. What can non KS Aegi actually run effectively? SD 3 attacks, weird choice sets and 4 attacks LO? If protect activated KS, I would support this option, but it doesn't, and I can't see a point in it at all. It's just silly. I'd rather have KS Aegi back than non KS Aegi, the move doesn't warrant a ban and it seems more like changing a game mechanic of stance change, by making it a one-way form change when attacking.
If anything, that'd be a perfect reason to bring him back, the option does make the pokemon useless.. but honestly, it's not making a difference because doublade is much more capable of handling the like of metagross at this point with eviolite.. Personally, letting aegislash silently come into OU only to become nearly unviable doesn't sound like bad thing to me other than hurting smogon's general tiering procedures stiring up potential future retest. (oblivion wing yveltal, geomancy xerneas, etc.)
Overcentralization wouldn't be that bad, scizor and azumaril can knock off or setup with no drawbacks on aegislash, zard x same, lopunny can RK, gyarados can setup and sweep, talonflame can freely flare blitz, victini can V-create..crawdaunt, weavile, landorus, and gliscor can knock off air balloon sets, tyranitar can reliable kill him with crunch or pursuit the blade form.. even hawlucha and beedrill can knock off without fear.
There is actually a pretty big fucking difference here...
In conclusion, if the mon isn't problematic without the move, then choose ban king's shield.. if the mon isn't broken with King's shield, choose do not ban aegislash. However either option is better than banning a mon with little impact on the metagame if one crippling option was given to us.
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Shaka Brah
Banned deucer.
I don't see the point in bringing down a neutered Aegis into OU and I don't really see how a neutered Aegis without KS fixes any sort of matchup issue. If your team loses to, say, Gross or something else that Aegis is meant to check and force out, and you add a KSless aegis, your team still loses to gross + a pursuit trapper anyway, so it really isn't a reliable switchin/blanket check capable of stabilizing the metagame and making it less matchup reliant... Only thing it's going to do it put a strain on teambuilding w/o fixing anything - I need an aegis answer as well or it's going to be able to switch in multiple times and melt my team with powerful sballs/sneaks. No, it technically wouldn't be "broken" because it's capable of being revenged extremely easily and there's less pressure revolving around turns where Aegis is on the field, but there really isn't a point to bringing it down.
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Even without Kings Shield Aegislash still switches in very easily on a lot of mons and still gets a very powerful hit off on whatever comes in. Sub/Protect/Toxic/Shadow Ball actually still seems plausible. Yeah you turn Blade mode if you attack, but that's only if you attack. You're not going to Shadow Ball a Mandibuzz, you can freely Sub+Protect a couple of turns while Toxic racks up, and stay in Shield mode. When you do have to use Shadow Ball you can take advantage from your Sub or switch out. Mixed Life Orb is also very viable and threatening...
The issue with this statement is how different using King's Shield is now than it was in XY. Back in XY, there was little risk to using King's Shield, but now, using King's Shield effectively actually requires more skill in order to avoid being taken advantage of, especially by set-up sweepers, that Aegislash is trying to beat. The 50/50 argument is a pre-judgmental, exaggerated argument because the opposing player can still figure out how to play around the 50-50s. Considering that the metagame in XY was trying to adapt from a post Deoxys and post Swagplay metagame that was still heavily influenced by Aegislash, the King's Shield argument was a lot more validated since the metagame was already being dictated by Aegislash. However, in a metagame where Aegislash is being introduced, any form of King's Shield argument is exaggerative because that is not really what could cause the actual point of conflict. 50/50 reducing skill is not a practical argument given the current state of the metagame; instead, the argument is how Aegislash would affect the viability of the current list of Pokemon in OU: does it make the top threats worse? Better? Does the metagame start centralizing to the point where the diversity in the meta has drastically dropped?
Aegislash itself isn't broken, it checks a lot in the tier while being checked itself, it's just seen as completely centralizing and it's whether or not we want a centralized metagame. A King's Shield ban could help since it helps remove all the possible sets it runs down to it's sub toxic set + life orb set until we figure out more useful sets without King's Shield and lol, I rarely see King's Shield running on Smeargle par VGC, so who cares.
fully support there being a third option of just banning ks. should this become official, ill probably actually get off my lazy ass for reqs just so i can vote for this option. i love the idea of having a mon in the tier that centralizes it in a healthy way, and i feel aegislash does that to an extent, but ks really is a broken move, and removing it from aegislash would remedy a lot of the issues people have with it, with the most notable one being the excessive 50-50s it causes. even without ks aegislash would still be a dominant pokemon, but in more of a healthy way. no longer would it be able to stance dance on a whim, and it would actually take more brainpower than just clicking buttons if you mess up with an attack or w/e. i realize this is a bit of an exaggeration, but honestly, ks is what makes aegislash so easy to use. removing the most influential piece of this mon is a good thing, and would allow ou to have the best of both worlds when it comes to aegislash -- the ability to keep a multitude of mons in line, but not forcing excessive 50-50s that makes aegislash so unhealthy in the first place. it far harder to argue that aegislash is broken when the move that makes it so great is taken out of the picture.
I suggested this exact thing about 9 months ago during the original Aegislash suspect. I'm such a hipster. I'm not suggesting that anyone stole my idea. I'm just glad it's finally gaining a following.
I was a bit naive at the time and a bit of an Aegislash fanboy, but I haven't changed my stance. (badum tss. Get it? Stance Change? I'm funny, I promise.)
As soon as you limit Aegislash's ability to change between forms, you limit its 'brokenness'. It will still be really good, but the moment it uses an offensive move, it becomes vulnerable. It won't be able to abuse the "50/50" situations that everyone was screaming about in the original suspect. The metagame has drastically changed since Aegislash was banned and I think now, more than ever, banning/suspecting King's Shield would be a perfect compromise. Of course there would probably have to be an entirely different suspect for King's Shield once this suspect is complete, but I hope that banning King's Shield is the eventual result.
Here's a link to the original quote if you don't believe me: np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of PerditionAcast said:
I was a bit naive at the time and a bit of an Aegislash fanboy, but I haven't changed my stance. (badum tss. Get it? Stance Change? I'm funny, I promise.)
As soon as you limit Aegislash's ability to change between forms, you limit its 'brokenness'. It will still be really good, but the moment it uses an offensive move, it becomes vulnerable. It won't be able to abuse the "50/50" situations that everyone was screaming about in the original suspect. The metagame has drastically changed since Aegislash was banned and I think now, more than ever, banning/suspecting King's Shield would be a perfect compromise. Of course there would probably have to be an entirely different suspect for King's Shield once this suspect is complete, but I hope that banning King's Shield is the eventual result.
I gotta be honest, I'm not much a fan of the idea of a KS ban either. For a precedence comparison, Protean proved to be a factor in Greninja being broken, but we banned Greninja because he in particular was what proved unhealthy, rather than ban Protean despite its only other user being Kecleon. Similarly King's Shield is among the factors that made Aegislash problematic, but only as part of the whole. If we ban King's Shield to keep Aegislash, it does raise the question of why we didn't ban Protean and simply let Greninja drop to RU or wherever he'd end up.
My other problem is that this almost feels like it defeats the purpose of this suspect test. Aegislash works as a Blanket Check because he has the ability to abuse his mixed defenses on top of his typing. Without them, so many of his sets lose viability while others take a hit regardless. I only know of maybe 2 sets that didn't use KS and one that might work (if less effectively) without it: SD + 3 Attacks, 4 Attacks LO/Spooky Plate/etc., and the SubToxic set (w/ Protect). Without King's Shield, Aegislash is almost inferior in his role to Doublade, who has his Eviolite defenses consistently (Much better Physical and slightly lesser but usable Special) and still isn't considered an effective defensive answer to the above mons. I doubt this discussion would even be a thing if Aegislash could change forms with Protect, since his mixed defenses were always a bigger issue than the drops KS causes. KS doesn't let him toy around Lopunny because it inflicts the drops, but because of the 50% recoil and need for HJK to break his Shield Forme, which Protect would still keep intact. If Aegislash has to stay in Blade Forme after attacking, Lopunny can afford to hammer on him with a resisted Return instead, breaking SubToxic's subs and outspeeding offensive variants before a second Sacred Sword.
Now, what should set them apart is Aegislash's greater offensive presence, but in Blade forme, he's practically as frail as Sharpedo, and with no way to change back, he's forced to leave, making him a momentum sink and extremely vulnerable to Pursuit Trapping. The SubToxic set I noted is almost useless against the mons Aegislash is being used to check, because he lacks reliable recovery and is liable to keep getting hammered.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 195-231 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 238-281 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are two mons Aegislash was known for putting a damper on while he was present, not because King's Shield could nerf them, but because his Shield Forme could stomach their hits easily before retaliating, and King's Shield let him take that form before any damage calcs could come up. Debatable how well Aegislash would even do checking the Megas he's being brought down for
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 184-217 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So if Aegislash comes in to check them, they just have to switch out to the Pursuit trapper and Aegislash is essentially dead right there. A Pursuit trapper isn't exactly the most unreasonable support for mons even with such viability, considering Keldeo tends to really want it and he's in S-Rank. Heck, Diancie turns the tables on him because she can scout for the shift turn with Protect + 3 Attacks and force a 50/50 back on him, and the SubToxic set's only option against either is to Shadow Ball or Sub, both of which have exploitable consequences.
Heck, Pinsir, one of the more infamous cases of a Pokemon he inhibited isn't even really checked by Aegislash if he can't use his Shield Forme.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-204 (53.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 174-205 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 54-64 (19.9 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 170-202 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 214-252 (66 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Swords Dance or Knock Off on the switch, Aegislash loses. Again, this is a mon he was infamous for giving trouble to, now setting up on him because he doesn't have to fear Shield Forme's defenses.
Losing the ability to change forms, irrespective of KS's secondary effects, defeats the purpose of Aegislash coming back. He can still switch into these mons... now what? He can't go on the offensive because the second he's in Blade forme he WILL get KO'd by any relevant attack and also becomes extreme Pursuit bait. Aegislash is a shaky check at best to most of the top tier mons at that point, becoming extremely passive if he's trying to maintain Shield Forme, and extremely vulnerable the second he goes to Blade. The passiveness and vulnerability to revenge killing make him suboptimal for offensive teams, while the lack of defensive consistency and control takes away the utility he offered to defensive cores. The 50/50's, if they're to be called such, around Aegislash for me never came down to whether I'd suffer a KS drop: the outcomes usually came more down to whether I'd be dealing with Blade or Shield Forme when I landed the next hit. If I knew Aegislash was stuck in Blade Forme once he attacked, he'd almost never register to me as a problem besides a Slaking tier wallbreaker: He gets on hard hit and then is the ultimate set-up fodder.
The matter of what we're trying to accomplish here is for discussion, but a ban on King's Shield really gets us nowhere. Aegislash is allowed back in fully, we get a more contained and centralized Metagame; Aegislash stays banned, the meta-game stays as wildly varied and unpredictable as it is now; No King's Shield, and the Meta probably sees a minor at best shift, Aegislash returning as a niche answer to these top offensive threats, though ultimately not holding them back if he can't consistently use his defenses. If a more contained Meta Game is the goal, the third option doesn't actually put us any closer than if Aegislash simply stayed banned, because he accomplishes the job he's wanted for by a sum of several factors that are all necessary for him to play as well as he does.
I'm still Pro Ban myself, but I'd say if the debate comes down to it King's Shield stays with Aegislash, wherever he's tiered. Aegislash's intent if we bring it down is to bring the tier back around it and reduce match-up issues. I feel like without the ability to use both his forms effectively, he fails to do that job to the extent he brings the metagame the Pro-Drop crowd most likely hopes to see.
My other problem is that this almost feels like it defeats the purpose of this suspect test. Aegislash works as a Blanket Check because he has the ability to abuse his mixed defenses on top of his typing. Without them, so many of his sets lose viability while others take a hit regardless. I only know of maybe 2 sets that didn't use KS and one that might work (if less effectively) without it: SD + 3 Attacks, 4 Attacks LO/Spooky Plate/etc., and the SubToxic set (w/ Protect). Without King's Shield, Aegislash is almost inferior in his role to Doublade, who has his Eviolite defenses consistently (Much better Physical and slightly lesser but usable Special) and still isn't considered an effective defensive answer to the above mons. I doubt this discussion would even be a thing if Aegislash could change forms with Protect, since his mixed defenses were always a bigger issue than the drops KS causes. KS doesn't let him toy around Lopunny because it inflicts the drops, but because of the 50% recoil and need for HJK to break his Shield Forme, which Protect would still keep intact. If Aegislash has to stay in Blade Forme after attacking, Lopunny can afford to hammer on him with a resisted Return instead, breaking SubToxic's subs and outspeeding offensive variants before a second Sacred Sword.
Now, what should set them apart is Aegislash's greater offensive presence, but in Blade forme, he's practically as frail as Sharpedo, and with no way to change back, he's forced to leave, making him a momentum sink and extremely vulnerable to Pursuit Trapping. The SubToxic set I noted is almost useless against the mons Aegislash is being used to check, because he lacks reliable recovery and is liable to keep getting hammered.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 195-231 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 238-281 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are two mons Aegislash was known for putting a damper on while he was present, not because King's Shield could nerf them, but because his Shield Forme could stomach their hits easily before retaliating, and King's Shield let him take that form before any damage calcs could come up. Debatable how well Aegislash would even do checking the Megas he's being brought down for
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 184-217 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So if Aegislash comes in to check them, they just have to switch out to the Pursuit trapper and Aegislash is essentially dead right there. A Pursuit trapper isn't exactly the most unreasonable support for mons even with such viability, considering Keldeo tends to really want it and he's in S-Rank. Heck, Diancie turns the tables on him because she can scout for the shift turn with Protect + 3 Attacks and force a 50/50 back on him, and the SubToxic set's only option against either is to Shadow Ball or Sub, both of which have exploitable consequences.
Heck, Pinsir, one of the more infamous cases of a Pokemon he inhibited isn't even really checked by Aegislash if he can't use his Shield Forme.
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-204 (53.7 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 174-205 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 54-64 (19.9 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 170-202 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 214-252 (66 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Swords Dance or Knock Off on the switch, Aegislash loses. Again, this is a mon he was infamous for giving trouble to, now setting up on him because he doesn't have to fear Shield Forme's defenses.
Losing the ability to change forms, irrespective of KS's secondary effects, defeats the purpose of Aegislash coming back. He can still switch into these mons... now what? He can't go on the offensive because the second he's in Blade forme he WILL get KO'd by any relevant attack and also becomes extreme Pursuit bait. Aegislash is a shaky check at best to most of the top tier mons at that point, becoming extremely passive if he's trying to maintain Shield Forme, and extremely vulnerable the second he goes to Blade. The passiveness and vulnerability to revenge killing make him suboptimal for offensive teams, while the lack of defensive consistency and control takes away the utility he offered to defensive cores. The 50/50's, if they're to be called such, around Aegislash for me never came down to whether I'd suffer a KS drop: the outcomes usually came more down to whether I'd be dealing with Blade or Shield Forme when I landed the next hit. If I knew Aegislash was stuck in Blade Forme once he attacked, he'd almost never register to me as a problem besides a Slaking tier wallbreaker: He gets on hard hit and then is the ultimate set-up fodder.
The matter of what we're trying to accomplish here is for discussion, but a ban on King's Shield really gets us nowhere. Aegislash is allowed back in fully, we get a more contained and centralized Metagame; Aegislash stays banned, the meta-game stays as wildly varied and unpredictable as it is now; No King's Shield, and the Meta probably sees a minor at best shift, Aegislash returning as a niche answer to these top offensive threats, though ultimately not holding them back if he can't consistently use his defenses. If a more contained Meta Game is the goal, the third option doesn't actually put us any closer than if Aegislash simply stayed banned, because he accomplishes the job he's wanted for by a sum of several factors that are all necessary for him to play as well as he does.
I'm still Pro Ban myself, but I'd say if the debate comes down to it King's Shield stays with Aegislash, wherever he's tiered. Aegislash's intent if we bring it down is to bring the tier back around it and reduce match-up issues. I feel like without the ability to use both his forms effectively, he fails to do that job to the extent he brings the metagame the Pro-Drop crowd most likely hopes to see.
- Status