Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Shrug]

Meta-wise, it's still a fantastic physical wall, and annoys Fighting-types to no end. Spritzee's biggest problem is that it gives out free turns like candy on Halloween. Between Wish, Protect, Aromatherapy, and the fact that it saps your team's momentum heavily, your opponent has plenty of turns to make a switch, set up hazards or boosts, or heal themselves while Spritzee is busy not hitting them. This makes it ill-suited for anything but stall and defensive balance teams, and from my experience using it, I find it too much of a load to bear for use on more offensive teams. If Spritzee is the bulkiest member of your team, those free turns become a problem quickly.

I support Spritz to A+, so i'll just point out some places where we disagree bout the effectiveness of Sprtizee. The "free turns" argument is valid to a degree, but I don't think it's a condition that afflicts Spritz worse than any other defensively-oriented mon. It's inherent to a Wishmon to give up free turns, but that flaw is mitigated by the substantial utility of those wishes; also, if you're feeling saucily predictive, you can attack on a turn you would normally protect, keeping offensive pressure while recovering. In a general sense, Spritzee is still a decent attacker, as a semipowerful special attack with a good type fired from an acceptable SpA stat hits hard. you make it seem a little like Aroma / Wish / Protect are moves that give up a free turn with no benefit, but the use of any of those reflect a decision on the risk of a free turn for your opponent vesus the significant advantages of self / team healing or status clearance. Of course this lends itself to a team that can sponge hits efficiently, which is why it fits best on defensively-oriented (or at least slow-tempoed balanced) playstyles exactly as you said, but i don't think thats necessarily a disqualifying negative; while many mons in the upper upper tiers do slot well on to multiple playstyles, no one is advocating a Fletch drop because it cannot soak hits - mons are measured by their effectiveness in their role. With that considered, Spritz's unfortunate tendency to leak free turns isn't crippling, as the teams it is natural on can easily work around that, and those teams appreciate the bountiful positive effects of utility moves more than they resent having to take free hits.

Another one of Spritzee's biggest flaws is its reliance on Wish. Sure, you can heal your teammates with it, but doing so basically guarantees that Spritzee will be too weakened to do its job next time. After all, you are taking hazard damage plus any damage dealt to Spritzee as it uses Wish, and even if it's only 26%, that's a 3HKO after two rounds of SR. For example, Porygon's Psychic deals 7 HP to Spritzee without a Download boost, which is certainly not much. However, if you pass a Wish and then try to switch into Psychic later in the game while SR is up, Spritzee is KOed by two more Psychics and those two rounds of SR. Passing a Wish after taking a hit means Spritzee is basically dead unless you manage to get it in on a Timburr or something. When you pass a Wish to your teammate, you are also giving up 2 turns with absolutely no damage dealt to your opponent besides hazards. As for healing Spritzee itself with Wish, the delayed healing is almost always a detriment except in fringe cases such as stalling out Guts Taillow or something.

Wish isn't a perfect move, but i feel like you approach it the wrong way. It seems like you think its primary focus is to pass to teammates, which leads to death, and secondarily healing Spritzee. The primary use of Wish is to heal Spritz itself; wishpassing is just a (quite quite useful) bonus. Essentially, instead of focusing on Wish as "a difficult thing to get to teammates and an inferior method of self-healing besides" it can be looked at as "an inferior self-healing method made up for by the situationally fantastic role of wishpassing", a much more favorable opinion. Wishingpassing itself isn't quite as difficult as you make it sound, either (thought we can free admit it's hard); the Wish often recovers the HP the switchin lost from the free attack granted by Spritz, and even if Spritzee is weakened in the process, the superabundance of Fighting-types in lc means it is never impossible for a self-healing wish to be fired off.

CM Spritzee seems like a great sweeper on paper, but in practice it's underwhelming. At the risk of sounding fanboyish, Timburr really is the gold standard that bulky boosters need to reach, and Spritzee doesn't cut it. To make a sweep, Spritzee needs its Eviolite and it needs to be at mostly full health, which means that its role as a wall directly compromises its sweeping chances. It cannot sweep and wall in the same game, and while Timburr can't do that either, its immediate power gives it an advantage over Spritzee. It has only one attacking move, which means it can't be useful until Poison-, Fire-, and Steel-types are gone, especially since it lacks Knock Off or priority to chip away at things when its checks are still alive like Timburr can. Spritzee lacks immediate power, making it reliant on boosts to deal large amounts of damage. Most importantly, it can't recover health while attacking at the same time. This is what makes Timburr shine as a sweeper, and this is where Spritzee falls flat. Without Draining Kiss (which makes Spritzee's lack of immediate power even worse), Spritzee is forced to stop boosting or dealing damage to heal itself, and also has to dedicate a slot to Protect to prevent it from taking more damage than it can heal off the next turn.

You and I both think Timburr is the best setup sweeper in the tier, but that definition sorta invalidates your next statement; of course spritzee doesnt stand next to timburr, because nothing does. Being worn down (and knocked off) is a problem for Spritzee, but more balanced teams (on which CM Spritz is devastating) can apply the pressure that means Sprtiz doesnt need to be a wall as much as it would have in the past. It's like using Timburr - you want a secondary Pawn check, as if Timburr is your only one, it can be hit with Knock Offs (and later Iron Heads) that lower its chances to sweep - as you said later, Drain Punch helps with this, but it is not a problem uncommon to bulky boosters with roles checking mons on the other team. Similarly, if using CM Spritz, you want at least other mons that come in to Fighting types walled by Spritzee so you can keep Spritz fresh for the endgame. While Spritzee isn't the most immediately powerful mon, it is one of the most immediately bulky, a quality that aids it immensely in sweeping. The coverage is an issue, but team support for the types you mention is not that hard to offer; besides, you don't attempt Timburr sweeps with (hehe) Spritzee on the other side.

Overall, the weaknesses Spritz has are not damning, and the strengths it has substancial enough, where i think A+ is the best place

 

[macle]

Just throwing it out there, Totodile from D to C-. While highly outclassed, DD and SD sets with sheer force are p strong. Access to a variety of moves isn't too shabby and imo better than every D mon and some C- mons.

 

[Merritt]

Just throwing it out there, Totodile from D to C-. While highly outclassed, DD and SD sets with sheer force are p strong. Access to a variety of moves isn't too shabby and imo better than every D mon and some C- mons.

While I love Totodile, its issue is that there is only one reason to use it over Corphish and that is Ice Punch. Unlike many of the C- ranks, who I agree Totodile is technically on par with, there is little reason to use Totodile. While its niche of being able to hit Foongus harder (or I guess Cottonee, but encore) than Corphish is enough to put it on the rankings, it's just so outclassed.

There are so few teams that would prefer Totodile's lower immediate power and lesser utility (aka no Knock Off) compared to Corphish, that it really doesn't deserve C-.

 

[Kavatika]

Yes, Totodiile is certainly outclassed by Corphish, that's why the proposal is only to C- rank, and not any higher. Looking at the definition of C rank, Totodile fits it better than D; it has a notable niche (sweep with DD or wall break with SD), but is outclassed by Corphish. If you compare Totodile to the other D-ranks, it's easy to tell that it can actually accomplish something in a match, whereas the rest of D-rank is piss-poor and is just unique in some way. Ice Punch also differentiates it just enough from Corphish to warrant a slight bump, that likely won't go any higher.

 

[Celestavian]

I support Spritz to A+, so i'll just point out some places where we disagree bout the effectiveness of Sprtizee. The "free turns" argument is valid to a degree, but I don't think it's a condition that afflicts Spritz worse than any other defensively-oriented mon. It's inherent to a Wishmon to give up free turns, but that flaw is mitigated by the substantial utility of those wishes; also, if you're feeling saucily predictive, you can attack on a turn you would normally protect, keeping offensive pressure while recovering. In a general sense, Spritzee is still a decent attacker, as a semipowerful special attack with a good type fired from an acceptable SpA stat hits hard. you make it seem a little like Aroma / Wish / Protect are moves that give up a free turn with no benefit, but the use of any of those reflect a decision on the risk of a free turn for your opponent vesus the significant advantages of self / team healing or status clearance. Of course this lends itself to a team that can sponge hits efficiently, which is why it fits best on defensively-oriented (or at least slow-tempoed balanced) playstyles exactly as you said, but i don't think thats necessarily a disqualifying negative; while many mons in the upper upper tiers do slot well on to multiple playstyles, no one is advocating a Fletch drop because it cannot soak hits - mons are measured by their effectiveness in their role. With that considered, Spritz's unfortunate tendency to leak free turns isn't crippling, as the teams it is natural on can easily work around that, and those teams appreciate the bountiful positive effects of utility moves more than they resent having to take free hits.

The fact that it has Wish means it does give up more free turns than other defensive Pokemon. Porygon, Slowpoke, Pumpkaboo-XL, and pretty much every other wall in the tier besides Lickitung all have reliable one-turn recovery, meaning they give up about half as many free turns. Sure, you can be fancy and try to attack instead of Protecting on the healing turn of Wish, but that's just as likely to backfire on you if the opponent attacks, which could KO you or cause you to lose net health over the 2 Wish turns. Spritzee does hit harder than you might think, but naturally it's not enough to scare away anything other than frail Pokemon or Fighting-types, and especially not opposing walls. Aromatherapy is the only move you listed Spritzee has that actually does something the turn you use it, so yes, Wish and Protect really do give up a free turn with no immediate benefit. Wish does nothing the turn you use it, and Protect does nothing on its own besides preventing damage, doing some scouting, or letting Wish heal you without taking damage. I can't think of another Pokemon in LC that runs three moves that do nothing to your opponent, and yes, that is a big issue. Spritzee's teammates do do a good job patching that up, and having a status healer is very nice, especially one that can potentially heal your team. Let's not forget here that I'm not trying to move Spritzee to B- or something, I think it's good enough to almost reach A+, but it's lack of offensive presence and reliance on its teammates to do something meaningful outside of forcing out Fighting-types and tanking lots of stuff is what holds it back for me.

Wish isn't a perfect move, but i feel like you approach it the wrong way. It seems like you think its primary focus is to pass to teammates, which leads to death, and secondarily healing Spritzee. The primary use of Wish is to heal Spritz itself; wishpassing is just a (quite quite useful) bonus. Essentially, instead of focusing on Wish as "a difficult thing to get to teammates and an inferior method of self-healing besides" it can be looked at as "an inferior self-healing method made up for by the situationally fantastic role of wishpassing", a much more favorable opinion. Wishingpassing itself isn't quite as difficult as you make it sound, either (thought we can free admit it's hard); the Wish often recovers the HP the switchin lost from the free attack granted by Spritz, and even if Spritzee is weakened in the process, the superabundance of Fighting-types in lc means it is never impossible for a self-healing wish to be fired off.

That wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm definitely aware that healing Spritzee is Wish's main purpose, I'm just pointing out that actually using Wish's passing ability more often than not condemns Spritzee to being 2HKOed the next time it comes in. WishPassing is hard, and only really works if the Pokemon you're passing to is already at full health; trying to WishPass to something at 60% or below is very hard if you are not careful. That is pretty useful since it almost always heals back the damage received by the switch-in, but there's also the chance that your opponent just sets up SR or uses a boosting move, making the Wish worthless. Also, the only Fighting-type you are using Wish on freely is Timburr. Mienfoo can U-turn out on either Spritzee's switch-in or the turn it uses Wish to bring in something that can beat what you are passing Wish to (it is usually obvious: the one that's at low HP) or just bring in a Poison-type, and Croagunk is a Poison-type so Spritzee obviously doesn't want to be in on that. Scraggy doesn't count because it sucks so much.

You and I both think Timburr is the best setup sweeper in the tier, but that definition sorta invalidates your next statement; of course spritzee doesnt stand next to timburr, because nothing does. Being worn down (and knocked off) is a problem for Spritzee, but more balanced teams (on which CM Spritz is devastating) can apply the pressure that means Sprtiz doesnt need to be a wall as much as it would have in the past. It's like using Timburr - you want a secondary Pawn check, as if Timburr is your only one, it can be hit with Knock Offs (and later Iron Heads) that lower its chances to sweep - as you said later, Drain Punch helps with this, but it is not a problem uncommon to bulky boosters with roles checking mons on the other team. Similarly, if using CM Spritz, you want at least other mons that come in to Fighting types walled by Spritzee so you can keep Spritz fresh for the endgame. While Spritzee isn't the most immediately powerful mon, it is one of the most immediately bulky, a quality that aids it immensely in sweeping. The coverage is an issue, but team support for the types you mention is not that hard to offer; besides, you don't attempt Timburr sweeps with (hehe) Spritzee on the other side.

I don't know about best set-up sweeper, here I'm talking specifically about bulky set-up sweepers that use either Bulk Up or Calm Mind to take hits while they set up. Considering how offensive the tier is, this is an extremely hard task. It requires coddling the set-up sweeper in question until it gets an opportunity to set up a boost, and then go from there and hopefully not take too much damage after beating one Pokemon that the next one doesn't KO you. Any set-up sweeper can go to town if its checks are all removed, the question is: How good is that Pokemon when it can't sweep? Spritzee loses Aromatherapy when it opts for Calm Mind, unless you're really risky and drop Protect which I do not recommend, and so it then it can only be a meat shield and occasionally pass Wishes if the enemy team is not conducive to a sweep. Timburr, on the other hand, still has Knock Off and priority to remain a threat even if it can't use Bulk Up, along with more immediate power if it can't time the time to boost. That's not to say swapping Aromatherapy for Calm Mind suddenly makes Spritzee entirely worthless if it can't sweep, instead I'm saying that it loses one of its main draws by doing so. A Spritzee that can't sweep is worth less than a Timburr that can't sweep.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

I want to approve Budew being C .
Budew isn't a D Rank for me. I'm actually using a Budew Offense, and I'm just amazed.
Budew has a lot of niches that make it just incredible in Spiker.

First, his access to Sleep Powder + Spikes. SP, sleep, and then spikes. Budew strategy, wow.
Also, Budew can run 16 spd, like dwebble, outspeeding a lot of things. Here is the set that I'm using :

Budew @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Spikes
- Leaf Storm
- Rest

The bulk is 21/18/21 with the spread. A little bit frail yeah. However, Budew can set spikes on some current mons in the meta :

Foongus/Spritzee/Cottonee/Mienfoo without Taunt/Chinchou without Ice Beam/Corphish/Timburr/Ferroseed/Pumpkaboo-S/Chespin/Shellos

I'm just taking B rank and more.
I read that some people said "Mienfoo Taunt blocks it". Yeah, that's true. But tbh Mienfoo taunt totally blocks Dwebble, Spinarak, and slows rock setters...
If you doesn't like to be taunted, then play mental heb lol.
Budew has a good match-up against a lot of things. Leaf Storm + decent spatk allows it to OHKO some threats :

36 SpA Budew Leaf Storm vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Rest + Natural Cure allows him to Spikes more than once, while Dwebble set all of his spikes in one time.
And he isn't that frail without evio, it can always take some hits from fairies, for exemple.

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Budew: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO

And even if Budew is weakened, Sleep Powder is always useful to use against a threat for your team. If you want a most bulky Budew, you can even run a defensive budew without speed. Even it's not a viable argue, in all the games I played recently, I just set at least two layers of spikes in each games without any troubles.

Budew also has a lot of interesting moves, like Stun Spore, Dazzling Gleam, Extrasensory luring Croagunk, Covet stealing Evio's after being knock off'd, and Synthesis if you doesn't like Rest + Natural Cure. That's just too bad that it doesn't get Tspikes.

So, for me, Budew has really, really more than one niche : His typing for a Spiker, SP + Spikes who is just a lot of fun, a good recovery move, and a really decent speed. I will try to add replays in order to show how Budew is efficient, but really atm, I think the right place for him is C/C+ . Really good mon, but it needs some support.

 

[kingmidas]

Alright so about the spritzee argument, I am normally the one who be extremely argumentative but the fact remains, spritzee was dropped in the same meta we're playing rn, so nothings changed, and honestly everyone hawkstar is saying in general is true, you cannot deny spritzee doesn't give turns away, and honestly aromatherapy is sorta useless at times especially if you have status absorbers, which is why coverage like tbolt/energy ball are not that bad, for archen and water types or chinchou simply with energy ball, and Shrug you cannot make prediction arguments when trying to prove a point, its objective, battle theories can leave people going a 100 different ways. Basically don't try to make a change with no basis other than "well this guy is used a lot and theoretically checks a ton of shit, lets ignore the previous discussion and move it back up" Its a rarity to see a spritzee with eviolite late game, and if it did you faced a mienfoo that played the shit out of you with a gastly pairing.

 

[Shrug]

So Celestavian and i's trading of tl;dr has boiled down to a razor's edge of valuations:
- how much is aromatherapy worth, and is the benefit worth the cost of giving up momentum?
- does the (hard to use successfully) benefit of being able to wishpass make up for the fact that wish causes added passivity in the form of the Protect turn?
- is being knock off weak a problem or a risk inherent in being a defensive mon in gen 6?
- does being a vital component of specific teambuilds counter the fact it's essentially deadweight on more uptempo styles?
- does Spritz's CM set have enough utility to put in work when faced with a team with counters, and how hard are those counters to eliminate?
- does walling fighting types mean a significant amount given the fact Sprizee forfeits momentum to do so?

im not going to lie, thats a hard judgement to make. I lean more towards A+ because it has a certain je ne sais quoi that makes it FEEL important in every battle, like you always know Spritzee is going to influence the game by being a bitch to break through + spreading wishes. I fully understand why it can be A though, i just think A+ feels right.

spritzee was dropped in the same meta we're playing rn, so nothings changed

. Basically don't try to make a change with no basis other than "well this guy is used a lot and theoretically checks a ton of shit, lets ignore the previous discussion and move it back up"

this argument however is totally worthless. Metagae shifts happen - viability rankings arent locked if the meta doesnt have any adds / drops, because people adapt and the meta changes regardless. TUO didnt "ignore" previous discussion and post an essay on it, nor did i when i gave many more reasons than "it theoretically checks things". judge it based on the arguments made; if you feel it's A i understand and can see the logic, but you cant just say "nothing changes so it cant move".

 

[kingmidas]

So Celestavian and i's trading of tl;dr has boiled down to a razor's edge of valuations:
- how much is aromatherapy worth, and is the benefit worth the cost of giving up momentum?
- does the (hard to use successfully) benefit of being able to wishpass make up for the fact that wish causes added passivity in the form of the Protect turn?
- is being knock off weak a problem or a risk inherent in being a defensive mon in gen 6?
- does being a vital component of specific teambuilds counter the fact it's essentially deadweight on more uptempo styles?
- does Spritz's CM set have enough utility to put in work when faced with a team with counters, and how hard are those counters to eliminate?
- does walling fighting types mean a significant amount given the fact Sprizee forfeits momentum to do so?

im not going to lie, thats a hard judgement to make. I lean more towards A+ because it has a certain je ne sais quoi that makes it FEEL important in every battle, like you always know Spritzee is going to influence the game by being a bitch to break through + spreading wishes. I fully understand why it can be A though, i just think A+ feels right.





this argument however is totally worthless. Metagae shifts happen - viability rankings arent locked if the meta doesnt have any adds / drops, because people adapt and the meta changes regardless. TUO didnt "ignore" previous discussion and post an essay on it, nor did i when i gave many more reasons than "it theoretically checks things". judge it based on the arguments made; if you feel it's A i understand and can see the logic, but you cant just say "nothing changes so it cant move".

Actually yeah they do most of the time, we don't have any major tours running annually yet like smogon has for its past gens which are in the same state as ours, where they don't change, a little exaggerated of course. SPLC usage isn't indicative as spritzee has been used a lot, leading to either side having one and it suffering from having a loss/win in those games no matter what, which was hawkstar's point I believe. Honestly when I see a spritzee I think, how easily can I turn this into my bitch, because despite all the good parts, its not hard to accomplish it. CM spritzee is honestly hard pressed unless you really support it. It cannot get rid of status so it has a lot of issues with that while trying to clean, it has no instant recovery and therefore it needs protect usually which means attack damage from the turn before/status adds up if it does enough. It cannot wall all fighting types, like pancham nukes it. Knock off itself is not the issue, its that spritzee switches into the knock off users purposely.

 

[vladpesh]

I'd like to see Doduo moving up by B to B+/A-. It has an insane base attack for the tier (85) boosted by the LO. His coverage is incredible too: Brave Bird, Return, Knock Off and HP Fighting hits hard all the tier and HP Fighting can be dropped for Quick Attack that can be nice too for revenge killing. His speed tier is good too, outspeeding many promiment threats like Archen, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Pawn and it is in tie with Gastly. His low defenses are a pain because let him getting easy to revenge kill, but in late game Doduo can be potentially letal so i think it deserves to be higher in the viability rankings :)

 

[Merritt]

I'd like to see Doduo moving up by B to B+/A-. It has an insane base attack for the tier (85) boosted by the LO. His coverage is incredible too: Brave Bird, Return, Knock Off and HP Fighting hits hard all the tier and HP Fighting can be dropped for Quick Attack that can be nice too for revenge killing. His speed tier is good too, outspeeding many promiment threats like Archen, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Pawn and it is in tie with Gastly. His low defenses are a pain because let him getting easy to revenge kill, but in late game Doduo can be potentially letal so i think it deserves to be higher in the viability rankings :)

Although Doduo is a potent threat, it's not quite as good as you suggest. It has just short of incredible speed, not quite amazing power (while 18 attack is good, it's not insane), and is frail. LO sets are very vulnurable to priority, especially as its best STAB causes huge amounts of recoil damage. It can absolutely put in work, but its vulnurability to most of the Fletchling checks which invade the meta and lack of ability to OHKO everything that it needs to leaves it below the potency of Snivy, Zigzagoon, and Munchlax. While a viable cleaner, so is fellow B-rank Taillow, who is less likely to be outsped and KOed by a weakened Ponyta for example. In my opinion it is very much on par with the rest of the B rank mons, which is by no means a bad rank.

Doduo should remain B-rank.

 

[Celestavian]

I'd like to point out that Murkrow had the same Attack stat and its LO Brave Birds were definitely "insane" just the same as Doduo's are. Murkrow is on another level because it has that 19 Speed, Sucker Punch, equally good Special Attack to roast Steel-types with Heat Wave, and Prankster make it an annoyance on top of all that. Doduo lacks strong priority, has none of Murkrow's versatility with the only choice being whether you're running LO or Scarf, is more frail, and has no way to get past Rock- or Steel-types. Doduo is good at B.

 

[Shrug]

I'm nominating Goldeen to C+, from its current position at C-. Goldeen has a bunch of good traits that make it more viable than its current position would indicate. To start, it provides one of the most useful Chinchou stops in the current metagame with Lightning Rod. While sadly unable to use the +1 boost afforded by a Lightningrod suckup of an electric move due to an ultrabad SpA (35 base), Goldeen comes in nice and easy on a resisted Water attack or absorbed Electric move and goes to work. With Dark / Water / Ground / Bug coverage, it threatens a ton of mons and can open people up with Knock Off. It successfully comes in to a bunch of other mons and poses a threat - pure Water with an Electric immunity is a good defensive typing.

In terms of stats, Goldeen's are surprisingly adequate to contend in Lc. Max/Max+ Attack/Speed is 16/17, reaching the common speed tier of many high-tier lc mons and hitting hard. I personally drop Speed to 15 (fuck ties) and run 116 Def Evs, hitting 14 in that stat, which tanks an awful lot of things pretty well. My set ends up with 21 / 17 (max+) / 14 / x / 11 / 15, which does a lot in the meta. It 2hko's Foongus with Megahorn after Knock Off, does the same to Foo with Waterfall, bonks Chou with Drill run, etc. It takes little damage from Drain Punches, etc, and is likely to avoid the 2HKO from Drillbur's EQ if you keep rocks off the field.

Goldeen is certainly comfortable in a tier with Lileep, Pump-Small, and Koffing. It has strong attacks, comes in decently easy, and has utility with Knock Off. I think it's a solid C+ mon.

Move Snubbs up to A

 

[infamy]

Edit: last part of post got cut off; mobile sucks :(
Nominating Skrelp to A:
Skrelp is absurdly good at the moment. It has literally two reliable switchins- Croagunk and Ferroseed- to its STABs. Its typing also lets it switch in on the omnipresent Fighting-types, and it has the bulk to do this effectively several times before it's worn down enough to the point of not being a threat anymore. It can also take advantage of the numerous free switches it forces to set up Toxic Spikes, which are great at the moment for the amount of pressure the residual damage puts on common archetypes like VoltTurn. While it doesn't have recovery outside of Rest, its bulk lets it live a lot of hits while firing back with strong attacks itself. It's also got great synergy with Pokemon like Spritzee, which can heal Skrelp with Wish and appreciates the switchin to Poison- and Steel-type attacks. It definitely belongs with Pokemon like Ferroseed and Gastly than it d.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Snubbull: A- -> A
Corphish B -> B+
Totodile D -> C-
Feel free to object

 

[AM]

Can someone explain to me why Abra is in A+ as opposed to S?

 

[tcr]

The main reason is that it really only does one thing exceptionally well, revenge kill. It cannot pivot well, is not bulky, and is too frail to be a sweeper. S tier Pokemon are generally reserved for those that can do multiple roles effectively and can fit on literally any team. While abra is good (too good but thats just me) it cannot fit on bulkier stall teams, for example. Mienfoo and Pawniard, however, can fit quite well.

 

[RZL]

Abra is in A+ because it can only perform two roles, which are easily determinable, and lacks the coverage, and power to full out sweep any team, unless they run Life Orb and even then it sometimes is not enough. Most somewhat bulky Pokemon can live any hit, and break the sash, for gods sake, even Berry Juice Archen can take a Psychic and break the Sash. Note that this is not true in the case of Life Orb. The coverage moves on both sets are the same. Pursuit trapping exists, and Abra is fully countered by Pokemon like Stunky. Abra also has no bulk. Pawniard may have many counters, but it has Bulk and can run a multitude of sets, likewise with Mienfoo. Abra just misses the criteria.

 

[AM]

I get the reasoning by Amaura but I don't exactly get yours RZL2000 It's suppose to fit the role of a revenge killer anyways and to get kills late game scenarios due to maintaining its Sash in the first place. I wouldn't exactly say it lacks effectiveness when the focus you're putting are flaws that aren't even emphasizing the mindlessness that Abra can be at times because it's guaranteed to survive a hit and hit back while not giving a care in the world about hazards. Lack of sufficient bulk seems like a moot point cause the nature of Abra wouldn't even be implying you're using this as a pivoting tool in the first place and Sash is already giving you that second win to do w/e anyways. Not fitting on a multitude of archtypes makes sense as amaura mentioned but I never thought Pawniard is an entire subrank above Abra in terms of just general effectiveness so that's partially where my line of thinking is coming from.

 

[Berks]

I would actually support a move to S for Abra, simply because it can go on just about any offensive team. There truly is no better offensive glue mon, simply because Abra can check just about anything at least once. This is generally enough for offensive teams. Of course, Abra isn't gonna be on any stall team anytime soon, and its bulk should not be keeping it out of the top tier. That simply is not its role, and the role(s) it does or can perform are done exceptionally well.

Of course, I'm not here to say that its borked or nuffin'

 

[RZL]

I will try and elucidate what I was trying to get across. Abra has one of two sets, Sash, and Life Orb, both are revenge killers. One is more potent, and one can survive any hit. Life Orb's main problem is that it can not live most priority. Abra only has one counter to every set it can run, this is Stunky. Abra is a very effective Revenge Killer, but it sometimes lacks potency after a revenging one Pokemon. Thus giving your opponent a free turn as, you want your Abra's sash still intact.
This can be a problem with Pokemon such as, a Shell Smasher getting a free boost, and then sweeping. Switching in Abra also does not happen at all.

Sorry, if I confused anyone, but my points were similar to Amaura's so, I will not reiterate what he already said. I had not yet received the notification for his post when I posted mine.

 

[Rowan]

s:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

a:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

does anyone else think that Foo and Pawn fit the A rank description more than S? I mean the descriptions are so similar, but I just think that you can't say that Mienfoo and Pawniard have almost no flaws. I feel the connotations of S make it out that it's pretty much always better to use an S rank mon that another. However, I think Mienfoo's lesser overall bulk and ability to check less things means that it's often better to run Timburr on certain teams. Of course I know that foo has many advantages over timburr but you can't say that running isn't without drawbacks. It also doesn't have much offensive presence when running the bulky set since it has to invest so much in speed and defenses.
I also feel the same about Pawniard, its lack of recovery means its easy to wear down, scarf isn't that good atm, I know evio is good but still can't switch in loads cos no recovery, and still has difficulty getting past a lot of bulky things, not to mention the presence of a fighter on every team. most teams carry a few checks that prevent Pawniard from really shining. The fact that every team has a few checks can be seen as a testament to how good it is, but imo pretty much all of these checks have other roles as well, they're not just put on to check Pawn.

S should be empty imo

 

[AM]

s:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

a:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

does anyone else think that Foo and Pawn fit the A rank description more than S? I mean the descriptions are so similar, but I just think that you can't say that Mienfoo and Pawniard have almost no flaws. I feel the connotations of S make it out that it's pretty much always better to use an S rank mon that another. However, I think Mienfoo's lesser overall bulk and ability to check less things means that it's often better to run Timburr on certain teams. Of course I know that foo has many advantages over timburr but you can't say that running isn't without drawbacks. It also doesn't have much offensive presence when running the bulky set since it has to invest so much in speed and defenses.
I also feel the same about Pawniard, its lack of recovery means its easy to wear down, scarf isn't that good atm, I know evio is good but still can't switch in loads cos no recovery, and still has difficulty getting past a lot of bulky things, not to mention the presence of a fighter on every team. most teams carry a few checks that prevent Pawniard from really shining. The fact that every team has a few checks can be seen as a testament to how good it is, but imo pretty much all of these checks have other roles as well, they're not just put on to check Pawn.

S should be empty imo

I don't think rank definitions are good to establish rankings more so practical applications to where it's sort of obvious what is clearly the top of the top or has enough utility to show it's easily implemented on teams with little to no opportunity cost. My issue with using rank definitions alone is that they're subject to any case based on peoples own perceptions, this happens a lot in the OU version of rankings and most times we just ignore it cause it will always come back to how it plays out in higher levels of play. This is sort of my idea where I was coming from with Abra in S cause Pawniard I think is a bit, over exaggerated for S in terms of what it does in practice? I guess that's more of a case for it to drop than Abra to rise maybe. I think Mienfoo is clearly better than Pawniard in the long run but that's probably the cue that you need to take a look at A+ and see what's realistically easily splashable in comparison to everything else, if the notion is that Mienfoo isn't exactly some god in the tier. I think it's effective but your tier doesn't seem to have anything flat out broken to have a good threshold of S at the moment other than stuff that is sort of A+ / S based on circumstances.

 

[Coconut]

s:
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

I'd say that Mienfoo, Pawniard, and even a few more things like Abra could fit into this criteria.

 

[Shrug]

im tapped out bout abra so i will nominate the true lc don:

a move to A- for this guy would serve as a fitting sendoff to Fiend Hound (Big L rest in peace) as well as something that more accurately represents the true value of Zev Love X in this meta (it's dope if you get it). just quickly popping off strengths:

- Hits the speed tier, which is 17, and also has nice prio to rail things.
- Is very strong, 2hkoing most of the meta
- is the premier sun blaster with vulpix as mambo and berks would attest to
- has cool secondary options such as: Dbond / solarbeam / thief / Taunt, all of which add utility.
- Comes in on a bunch - Pump, Pony sometimes, Abra if used right, grass mons in general - more than you'd expect
- w/ evio is a p solid abra trapper that isnt deadweight against most other shit

there are some negatives - a bit frail, etc - but it's good enough to be A- i think