np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[Synchronation]

precisely how many EQs can kill aegis in shield form though?

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While he certainly isn't shrugging off these hits, he's certainly not dieing to them. It's actually really really hard to kill aegi in shield form.

Any mon you send out to kill aegislash should do so with the expectation of having to eat the shadow ball + shadow sneak combo in return (at a minimum. Ideally he should be able to stomach a subset of his coverage moves as well). Otherwise aegi will live, and you will die, which defeats the purpose of revenge killing.

That's why I said you should send something in that actually threatens it out.
If we are still talking about revenge killing then Aegislash wouldn't be at full health anyway since it probably needed to check something already leaving it in kill-range for all them.
If we are really assuming that Aegislash is at full health, then we have a totally different situation: Does your opponent need Aegislash? Excadrills Earthquake nearly kills it, which means it is unable to check your Lati@s if he really decides to stay in. If I would need my Aegislash, I would still switch out despite winning the 1vs1 situation.

This is why I am tired of seeing these stupid 50/50-arguments. They are most of the time out of context and in 1vs1 situations which are obviously in favor for Aegislash. In a real battle you will rarely be in these kinds of situations, so this is a very poor argument.

I can do that too

Bisharp forces 50/50 with Lati@s because it can kill it with Sucker Punch or Pursuit if it switches.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see, Bisharp can live an attack if I mispredict and used Pursuit instead of Sucker Punch. He now has to win the 50/50 a second time to escape, while I only have to win it once to be victorious.

I really hope that I don't have to explain why every good player would disagree with me on this situation I described here.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

precisely how many EQs can kill aegis in shield form though?

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While he certainly isn't shrugging off these hits, he's certainly not dieing to them. It's actually really really hard to kill aegi in shield form.

Any mon you send out to kill aegislash should do so with the expectation of having to eat the shadow ball + shadow sneak combo in return (at a minimum. Ideally he should be able to stomach a subset of his coverage moves as well). Otherwise aegi will live, and you will die, which defeats the purpose of revenge killing.

This is assuming that aegislash is at full health. Any bit of chip damage will turn those guaranteed 2HKOs into chances to KO or guaranteed OHKOs. Especially with aegislash's primary use being switching into hits. Say he pursuit traps latios, chances are he ate a draco or EQ turning excadrill's EQ into a OHKO or even giving bisharp momentum with pursuit/knock off. A lot of excadrills run life orb with a jolly nature anyway.

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, 68% chance at full.

Again, this on paper makes aegislash look threatening. However the occurrence that aegislash is going to be capable of tanking hits and sticking around for awhile without recovery is fairly uncommon.

The situation of something having to be able to OHKO aegislash before dying to it seems similar to wobbuffet. Wobbuffet can come in, and unless something OHKO's it or uses a status move, it's gone to counter/mirror coat.

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 28 HP / 228 Def Wobbuffet: 384-452 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Wobbuffet: 484-572 (82.8 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(dunno their usual spread)

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[pika pal]

This is assuming that aegislash is at full health. Any bit of chip damage will turn those guaranteed 2HKOs into chances to KO or guaranteed OHKOs. Especially with aegislash's primary use being switching into hits. Say he pursuit traps latios, chances are he ate a draco or EQ turning excadrill's EQ into a OHKO or even giving bisharp momentum with pursuit/knock off. A lot of excadrills run life orb with a jolly nature anyway.

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock,

Again, this on paper makes aegislash look threatening. However the occurrence that aegislash is going to be capable of tanking hits and sticking around for away without recovery is fairly uncommon.

The situation of something having to be able to OHKO aegislash before dying to it seems similar to wobbufett. Wobbufett can come in, and unless something OHKO's it or uses a status move, it's gone to counter/mirror coat.

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 28 HP / 228 Def Wobbuffet: 384-452 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (dunno their usual spread)

EDIT: ninja'd

Can we note the opposite problem though: By Pursuit Trapping Latios, you're out said Dragon and Aegislash took some but not astronomical damage.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 144-172 (44.4 - 53%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO (2 Dracos = 1.5 full power factoring in the drop)

4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Factoring in potential Leftovers, Aegislash at worst has 59% HP (47% left + 12% Leftovers recovery), which is enough to take a blow if Metagross is your attempt to revenge (ergo EQ is coverage and not STAB). Meanwhile Latios is sitting at best holding 15% of its health assuming it was full when Aegislash switched into it.

Even if Aegislash is left in to suffer the revenge, Aegislash still pulled a 1-for-1 exchange, which I personally consider the minimum amount of work for an offensive, non-win condition Pokemon. Not to mention, EQ, the most common coverage option to beat the Sword, is potent, but exploitable, which only leads into more 50/50 arguments, since there's the 50/50 of "do I attack or set up on a King's Shield" as well as "Do I Earthquake or pick coverage for a potential switch-in?" if you decide to attack. Considering one of the (many) Pokemon Aegislash partners well with is Landorus, for example, a free-switch in with a hasty Earthquake is not something you want to give the Genie, but neither do you want to give Aegislash a free turn by picking Iron Head/U-Turn/etc. expecting him to switch out.

This is the odd thing, because Aegislash seems to force 50/50's or predictions within themselves: First you have the 50/50 of whether to attack or set-up, depending on King's Shield/Switch, then you have to anticipate what the switch is if you think it's coming to get the appropriate coverage move, because it's not likely Aegislash is partnered with mons that share too many weaknesses considering his typing can cover 13/18 types as just one part of a defensive core.

 

[Merritt]

Aegislash has an additional advantage in 50/50 situations where the opponent has their threat out in the option to switch Aegislash out to a counter. While switching in on Aegislash is difficult due to its incredibly power, hard to resist attacks, the same is not true for what Aegislash faces. Your Excadrill came in? Aegislash can use KS, survive EQ, and maybe KO Excadrill. Alternatively, if they predict that you're going to use a different move, they can attack and threaten to dent or KO Excadrill. Then, another option altogether, they switch to their Landorus, avoid the EQ, and then sweep your whole team with the Rock Polish set or something like that.

Aegislash's advantage in the "50/50"s it causes is the tremendous offensive pressure it provides. Switching is a much more viable option for the Aegislash user, since it can force the opponent into the option where there is the best worst case scenario so they don't lose members of their team.

e: ninja

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

Aegislash has an additional advantage in 50/50 situations where the opponent has their threat out in the option to switch Aegislash out to a counter. While switching in on Aegislash is difficult due to its incredibly power, hard to resist attacks, the same is not true for what Aegislash faces. Your Excadrill came in? Aegislash can use KS, survive EQ, and maybe KO Excadrill. Alternatively, if they predict that you're going to use a different move, they can attack and threaten to dent or KO Excadrill. Then, another option altogether, they switch to their Landorus, avoid the EQ, and then sweep your whole team with the Rock Polish set or something like that.

Replace the word aegislash with heatran, excadrill, charizard x, diancie, metagross, and any other pokemon weak to EQ. Your result is the exact same, and thus you cannot call that a 50/50 forced by aegislash. Say this a scarf lando-T, should you lock into EQ or is gengar, lando-I, or DD gyarados going to come in and sweep, or should you knock off/stone edge/double switch to counter the switch in before it sets up? Same case scenario here.

pika pal I get what you're saying however I cannot say that still doesn't describe other mons like wobbuffet, gothitelle, bisharp, tyranitar, and the like. Wobbuffet gets a 1 for 1 as it already did it's job in countering something, and then gets revenge killed. Gothitelle gets a 1 for 1 as it already eliminated the pink blobs of stall and after being revenge killed, gave a special sweeper like zard y a massive advantage. Tyranitar got rid of latias, and latios more flawlessly then bisharp, and although it still can put in work after the job is finished, it's still an example of a 1 for 1 scenario. Aegislash's role in this argument isn't particularly something we don't see or have currently going on. If aegislash guarantees a death before it's own, remember that there are other pokemon who do this much more flawlessly, and in tyranitar's case, don't get RK'd as easily or recieve the chip damage.

 

[pika pal]

pika pal I get what you're saying however I cannot say that still doesn't describe other mons like wobbuffet, gothitelle, bisharp, tyranitar, and the like. Wobbuffet gets a 1 for 1 as it already did it's job in countering something, and then gets revenge killed. Gothitelle gets a 1 for 1 as it already eliminated the pink blobs of stall and after being revenge killed, gave a special sweeper like zard y a massive advantage. Tyranitar got rid of latias, and latios more flawlessly then bisharp, and although it still can put in work after the job is finished, it's still an example of a 1 for 1 scenario. Aegislash's role in this argument isn't particularly something we don't see or have currently going on. If aegislash guarantees a death before it's own, remember that there are other pokemon who do this much more flawlessly, and in tyranitar's case, don't get RK'd as easily or recieve the chip damage.

Fair enough, but I'm just noting Aegislash puts in that minimum 1-for-1 almost by default, and puts in more on top of that. With Tyranitar or Gothitelle, they can manage that work, but they have to be played much more intelligently to do so, since a stall player will be treading cautiously if they spot Gothitelle on the opposing team. While the same can be said for Aegislash and what he checks, he checks so many things beyond what he (soft) counters that he's putting in work even against the cautious player and just trying to get that 1 target as his ultimate goal.

 

[Mencee]

If Aegislash's issue is forcing 50/50's with King's Shield then I don't understand what is wrong with banning King's Shield. Smeargle does not take advantage of it in singles. Without King's Shield there are many advantages and nerfs to Aegislash while still making it a threat in the tier:

- Prone to Pursuit trapping if trying to switch out to resume Shield Form.
- Physical Attackers that don't rely on EQ can freely attack it without the -2 attack drop.
- Removes the unhealthy "50/50" everyone is complaining about.

It's worth considering imo. However, this could become problematic if anything else learns King's Shield in next games/gen 7.

 

[MZ]

If Aegislash's issue is forcing 50/50's with King's Shield then I don't understand what is wrong with banning King's Shield. Smeargle does not take advantage of it in singles. Without King's Shield there are many advantages and nerfs to Aegislash while still making it a threat in the tier:

- Prone to Pursuit trapping if trying to switch out to resume Shield Form.
- Physical Attackers that don't rely on EQ can freely attack it without the -2 attack drop.
- Removes the unhealthy "50/50" everyone is complaining about.

I know it's a complex ban but it's worth considering imo.

The reasons I'm against this is that 1. It being ban worthy is really specific and debatable and 2. I think even without it Aegis is still banworthy (although not as much). I think most people don't like it for being a slippery slope to banning sucker punch, or they disagree that it's a problem. Or they think they can outplay a coin flip x_X

 

[WebBowser]

If Aegislash's issue is forcing 50/50's with King's Shield then I don't understand what is wrong with banning King's Shield. Smeargle does not take advantage of it in singles. Without King's Shield there are many advantages and nerfs to Aegislash while still making it a threat in the tier:

- Prone to Pursuit trapping if trying to switch out to resume Shield Form.
- Physical Attackers that don't rely on EQ can freely attack it without the -2 attack drop.
- Removes the unhealthy "50/50" everyone is complaining about.

I know it's a complex ban but it's worth considering imo. However, this could become problematic if anything else learns King's Shield in next games/gen 7.

For me, it's just that when given the choice between banning a mon and banning a move, it's almost always better to just ban the mon. If broken KS abusers were running rampant, I might reconsider, but since KS is only on 1 mon (Smeargle really doesn't count), it's better to just ban that mon. Unless a move is so utterly borked that virtually anything that got it would be broken *cough*geomancy*cough*, I see no reason to ban it.

 

[Freeroamer]

My issue with a potential King's Shield ban or at least the option to vote it as a result of this test is that there's been no attempt to test it, so everything that's assumed about it is merely theoretical and not practical evidence, and while you can ascertain a certain amount from theory, there are always surprising trends and new ideas that come about as the result of change but those would be pretty crucial to a lot of people's votes as they would help to define the new metagame that came around as a result.

On the actual idea of banning King's Shield as a blanket move, someone made an excellent point earlier in the thread in that it just seems like an attempt to slightly nerf Aegislash enough so it might be manageable in OU. I generally don't like this way of thinking, as while tiering is a necessity to have functioning and balanced metagames, we should aim to keep as much to the heart of the actual games as much as possible so the only way I could see it being justified was as has already been said, as an uncompetitive element. My thoughts on this are that Aegislash's qualities are what makes KS so good, the stat distribution, the excellent typing etc etc. Would those qualities be diminished enough with the removal of King's Shield? Well without testing it's hard to say, but becoming a lot more Pursuit prone is pretty damn huge, as well as the loss of ability to regularly utilise something with 150 base attacking stats and defensive stats when facing up to a faster attacker without setup, such as 3 attacks Thundurus. Overall thought, I still think Aegislash would be strong enough to overcome those new flaws and still be at the top of the pile as a potentially broken mon. Wouldn't mind seeing a test for it though, I think it would be very interesting.

tl;dr

If there's going to be a vote to ban KS option, there needs to be a means of testing it

 

[Jaguar360]

Clarifying again, banning King's Shield isn't a complex ban. Banning King's Shield + Aegislash is. I still don't see why it's such a big deal, but I already shared my thoughts and no one replied, so I'll stop there.

I'm undecided on the Aegislash suspect and am leaning towards an unban if banning King's Shield isn't a viable option, but I don't want to expand on this just yet until I've gotten more experience on the ladder and can articulate my thoughts better.

 

[Gorechomp]

I feel that with the current metagame, Aegislash should be given a another shot at OU. There are checks and counters such as Bisharp (gives no fucks about King's Shield), Charizard Y, Both Landos, Mandibuzz, Heatran, Mega Lopunny, and many more. Also since King's Shield doesn't block status aliment, that can also be used to players advantages. That said Aegislash's unpredictability might give some inexperienced players trouble like in the past. Oh well, I'm rooting for Aegislash to be unbanned, at least for right now.

#FREEAEGISLASH2015

 

[Empress]

I feel that with the current metagame, Aegislash sgould be given a another shot at OU. There are checks and counters such as Bisharp (gives no fucks about King's Shield), Charizard Y, Both Landos, Mandibuzz, Heatran, Mega Lopunny, and many more. Also since King's Shield doesn't block status aliment, that can also be used to players advantages. That said Aegislash's unpredictability might give some inexperienced players trouble like in the past. Oh well, I'm rooting for Aegislash to be unbanned, at least for right now.

#FREEAEGISLASH2015

No, no, and no. Aegi always had a wide array of checks and counters; yes, it's ORAS and not XY, but what did Aegi gain for checks and counters besides Mega Lopunny? Also, remember that having checks and counters does not instantly make a mon not broken. King's Shield also hasn't changed since then- never blocked status ailments, yet it's still seen as one of the main reasons for Aegi's unhealthy effect on OU. Moreover, would you really click KS against a predicted status move? One more thing too: Aegi's unpredictability doesn't just trouble inexperienced players. IT CAUSES FUCKING TOURNAMENT PLAYERS TO BE FORCED INTO GUESSING GAMES. That just goes to show how dangerous this thing is. Predict its set incorrectly and it'll punish you dearly; whether you're a ladder n00b or a seasoned veteran, it doesn't matter.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I feel that with the current metagame, Aegislash sgould be given a another shot at OU. There are checks and counters such as Bisharp (gives no fucks about King's Shield), Charizard Y, Both Landos, Mandibuzz, Heatran, Mega Lopunny, and many more. Also since King's Shield doesn't block status aliment, that can also be used to players advantages. That said Aegislash's unpredictability might give some inexperienced players trouble like in the past. Oh well, I'm rooting for Aegislash to be unbanned, at least for right now.

#FREEAEGISLASH2015

Sadly only Mandibuzz is the only soft counter, and all those that are checks are very soft checks for the most part since a lot of their ability to take the mon down relies on prediction, which goes both ways as we have stated a million times over. And implying Aegi is a problem to inexperienced players was a cute little jab.

#PREDICTTHECOINFLIP

C'mon guys, let's not make this into a meme base.

That just goes to show how dangerous this thing is. Predict its set incorrectly and it'll punish you dearly; whether you're a ladder n00b or a seasoned veteran, it doesn't matter.

This thread also goes to show how dangerously low our standards are when it comes to votes, I mean Megagross stayed OU for christ's sake. . .

 

[MattyBrollic]

I'm sure that people have mentioned this already, but I feel that a complicated ban such as removing King Shield's attack lowering effect could solve a lot of problems. That way, Aegi is still a very good Pokemon, but doesn't create as many 50/50s especially regarding physical attackers. Without the attack drop, there would be a much lower opportunity cost of attacking Aegi with moves like Knock Off and pretty much all physical moves.

I realize that such a complicated ban is probably impossible, but it may be some food for thought.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'm sure that people have mentioned this already, but I feel that a complicated ban such as removing King Shield's attack lowering effect could solve a lot of problems. That way, Aegi is still a very good Pokemon, but doesn't create as many 50/50s especially regarding physical attackers. Without the attack drop, there would be a much lower opportunity cost of attacking Aegi with moves like Knock Off and pretty much all physical moves.

I realize that such a complicated ban is probably impossible, but it may be some food for thought.

See, the problem I, and I'm sure many others have with this is, if we're going to limit aegi to not using a move, that alone is not broken, Then we should be able to do the same thing with other Pokemon. I mean, if you limit Pokemon to not being able to use certain moves in their arsenal, we'd have a lot of things in Ubers in OU. We shouldn't allow Aegi to do this just because we want to "balance the meta" (which it doesn't). It should be Aegislash as a whole, simple as that. I mean, remove Dark void from Darkrai's movesets, and you have something that is actually relatively manageable.
This is why I strongly disagree with getting rid of King's shield. Aegislash is the problem, not King's shield.

EDIT: We're also not going to alter the move, such as removing the -2 attack side effect because it can not be done in the cartridge itself.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm sure that people have mentioned this already, but I feel that a complicated ban such as removing King Shield's attack lowering effect could solve a lot of problems. That way, Aegi is still a very good Pokemon, but doesn't create as many 50/50s especially regarding physical attackers. Without the attack drop, there would be a much lower opportunity cost of attacking Aegi with moves like Knock Off and pretty much all physical moves.

I realize that such a complicated ban is probably impossible, but it may be some food for thought.

Yeah, I don't think changing the game mechanics isn't going to appeal as a method of banning/unbanning. I remember suggesting that "the recipient of a Baton Pass cannot use Baton Pass itself" (effectively denying ChainPassing but still allowing more than one BPer to be used on a team), but that got turned down and the Baton Pass clause you see today is implemented since it limits the number of users to be used, rather than limiting the move itself. A similiar case occurred with DrizzleSwim in Gen 5 in that it also limits the specific mons to be used, instead of changing Rain mechanics and whatnot.

 

[haunter]

I'm sure that people have mentioned this already, but I feel that a complicated ban such as removing King Shield's attack lowering effect could solve a lot of problems. That way, Aegi is still a very good Pokemon, but doesn't create as many 50/50s especially regarding physical attackers. Without the attack drop, there would be a much lower opportunity cost of attacking Aegi with moves like Knock Off and pretty much all physical moves.

I realize that such a complicated ban is probably impossible, but it may be some food for thought.

This is not going to happen, ever. We're not altering in-game mechanics. We either ban King's Shield as a whole or don't ban it at all.

 

[Karxrida]

No, no, and no. Aegi always had a wide array of checks and counters; yes, it's ORAS and not XY, but what did Aegi gain for checks and counters besides Mega Lopunny? Also, remember that having checks and counters does not instantly make a mon not broken. King's Shield also hasn't changed since then- never blocked status ailments, yet it's still seen as one of the main reasons for Aegi's unhealthy effect on OU. Moreover, would you really click KS against a predicted status move? One more thing too: Aegi's unpredictability doesn't just trouble inexperienced players. IT CAUSES FUCKING TOURNAMENT PLAYERS TO BE FORCED INTO GUESSING GAMES. That just goes to show how dangerous this thing is. Predict its set incorrectly and it'll punish you dearly; whether you're a ladder n00b or a seasoned veteran, it doesn't matter.

You act like King's Shield is a risk-free move for the user when it's not. The user is just as much at risk as the opponent of getting taken advantage of by a mispredict (which is part of the game that can't be avoided). Getting to know your opponent's patterns and analyzing the risk vs. reward of the situation will allow you to take the correct choice when facng it, and it's a not a much of a crapshoot as you make it out to be. Also any guessing games are thrown out the window when it's in front of a Special Attacker, STAB Ground user (bar Iimmunity switch-ins, but this isn't an issue inherent to Aegislash so much as a risk in using what is arguably ons of the best offensive types), or Bisharp. They are perfectly viable with or without Aegislash's presence, so it's not like checks are hard to come by. You could also run a lure, which wouldn't be that hard since Shadow Ball has large distribution, hits a couple other relevant targets now like Mega Metagross and Jirachi (btw Jirachi is an annoying fuck) on top of having has great neutral coverage. Aegislash doesn't have any recovery to utilize other than Lefties so you could easily wear it down for teammates.

 

[ginganinja]

Getting to know your opponent's patterns and analyzing the risk vs. reward of the situation will allow you to take the correct choice when facng it, and it's a not a much of a crapshoot as you make it out to be.

So basically, just outplay the coinflip?

 

[Karxrida]

So basically, just outplay the coinflip?

There is no coinflip because both players make the choice. With Swagger it was solely based on the RNG whether or not the target got to do what they wanted.

 

[Martin]

There is no coinflip because both players make the choice.

You have just described a coin flip. If one side makes the wrong choice the other is at an advantage, and vice versa. There are two outcomes: player 1 making the right choice and player 2 making the right choice - i.e. a 50:50. Swagger is a coin flip in a literal sense, this scenario is in a practical sense. Either way, they are both coin flips.

 

[Karxrida]

You have just described a coin flip. If one side makes the wrong choice the other is at an advantage, and vice versa. There are two outcomes: player 1 making the right choice and player 2 making the right choice - i.e. a 50:50. Swagger is a coin flip in a literal sense, this scenario is in a practical sense. Either way, they are both coin flips.

By this logic literally every choice in the game is a coinflip.

 

[Martin]

By this logic literally every choice in the game is a coinflip.

I guess, but the difference here is that this "wrong move" is usually enough to make the player lose all their momentum/lose a pokemon/cripple a pokemon beyond repair. With most in-game decisions, these things can be worked around and, as a result, are no longer 50:50s. However, with Aegislash, it is basically 'make the right choice or take a major hit that will severely hinder your chances of victory'. A coin flip is where the wrong choice results in the 'losing' side being set back, and that is what Aegislash does v.s. an insanely large number of pokemon in a way that is much more common/problematic than the ones caused by the other 50:50 forcer Bisharp. I guess that is what I meant in the post, but just forgot to say it XD

 

[Metalhand]

Pokemon is a game bsaed on prediction-its full of situations where your predictions gonna be crucial for the game, and thats the same with king shield. You can't just ban a pokemon(or a move) for doing something that is part of the game. If you comeplain about such a thing saying its we have no control on it , lets ban first scald, ice beam and crits, at least in aegislash case the game truly is in our hands.