Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Martin]

Using lure sets for justification is poor unless it is something like M-Mega because - lets face it - Mega Metagross' entire moveset is effectively one big lure. Using things like Ice Beam Clefable or HP Ice/Smack Down Lando-T aren't really a valid reason for them to be ranked higher because they should only be used if ur team is particularly weak to something (see: Aerial Ace Bisharp in XY).

 

[dramadrama]

one graet thing about clefable is that it can beat most of its counters depending on a set. if you run twave you can beat mvenusaur, if you run ice beam you can beat gliscor, if you run focus blast you can beat heatran, fire blast set beats the rest of the steel types.

 

[Bluwing]

i notice a lot off arguments here are focused on clefable's offensive spectrum which isn't where it rly shine in oras. clefable have the bulk needed to check what it needs to check like, thundurus, lopunny, kyu-b, special altaria, lati@s, diancie etc. the list goes on. not only that, but also having a ton off utility in stealth rock, thunder wave, heal bell, wish u fuckin name it, which makes every mon tele named as a counter/check nearly unusable after getting twaved.

clefable is also no slouch offensively either, it packs amazing coverage and wonderful abilities to utilize it's offensive spectrum nicely. not to mention it's one off the most slappable pokemon in the whole tier atm, checking extreme threats to bulkier teams like kyu-b, manaphy, thund, lopunny, altaria and diancie is just crazy for a single mon to do. there is no reason for clefable not rising up to S as it does what it needs to do extremely well, there is no risk involved in using clefable whatsoever.

 

[AM]

Using lure sets for justification is poor unless it is something like M-Mega because - lets face it - Mega Metagross' entire moveset is effectively one big lure. Using things like Ice Beam Clefable or HP Ice/Smack Down Lando-T aren't really a valid reason for them to be ranked higher because they should only be used if ur team is particularly weak to something (see: Aerial Ace Bisharp in XY).

i dont see how this is a valid point when things like ice beam, knock off, counter, thunderbolt, focus blast all have legitimate merits. M-metagross in all fairness is much more predictable where the things you really have to worry about are minor differences such as ice punch and hone claws. Sure it might have a higher power output but its versatility isnt high enough to use metagross as some sort of example that the lure aspect surpasses clefable which i dont believe is the case.

 

[Ptyra]

Why Scizor didn't move up to B+ ? He has one of the most powerful priority in the tier, is a very good check to Fairies, can Pursuit trap Psyshic-types and his U-turn hits very hard.
I understand he's outclassed by his mega, but Scizor is still a solid choice. Maybe his lack of bulk.

 

[Laurel]

i dont see how this is a valid point when things like ice beam, knock off, counter, thunderbolt, focus blast all have legitimate merits. M-metagross in all fairness is much more predictable where the things you really have to worry about are minor differences such as ice punch and hone claws. Sure it might have a higher power output but its versatility isnt high enough to use metagross as some sort of example that the lure aspect surpasses clefable which i dont believe is the case.

Mega Metagross still gets Thunder Punch and Grass Knot, which hit arguably its best counters, Skarmory and Slowbro effectively.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-160 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Thats a max defense Skarmory... most run some speed to use Taunt or some SpDef for Diancie.

 

[Martin]

i dont see how this is a valid point when things like ice beam, knock off, counter, thunderbolt, focus blast all have legitimate merits. M-metagross in all fairness is much more predictable where the things you really have to worry about are minor differences such as ice punch and hone claws. Sure it might have a higher power output but its versatility isnt high enough to use metagross as some sort of example that the lure aspect surpasses clefable which i dont believe is the case.

IDK I was just thinking of the first thing with lots of coverage options that are not absolutely necessary with the metagross thing more than anything XD

 

[Taliheim]

Why Scizor didn't move up to B+ ? He has one of the most powerful priority in the tier, is a very good check to Fairies, can Pursuit trap Psyshic-types and his U-turn hits very hard.
I understand he's outclassed by his mega, but Scizor is still a solid choice. Maybe his lack of bulk.

Scizor's ranked where is is due to having a lot of its effective sets outclassed by its Mega form, leaving it with pretty much one set, the Band variant. It also suffers from the combination of low speed and only decent bulk, and has no viable reliable recovery (Roost on a Choice set ?_?), which means that it can only really either Revenge kill or force something out to provide momentum. It's still viable, and IMHO should rise a rank, but it's not particularly outstanding in the current metagame.

 

[Martin]

Scizor can very easily sub in with the mega's set if u need another mega, which is the main thing which warrants its going up. While m-zor is better in most roles, if u need another mega to fill a weakness you can very easily give it Lefties/LO/Iron Plate and call it a day. That is what is so good about Scizor.

 

[Alfalfa]

Scizor's ranked where is is due to having a lot of its effective sets outclassed by its Mega form, leaving it with pretty much one set, the Band variant. It also suffers from the combination of low speed and only decent bulk, and has no viable reliable recovery (Roost on a Choice set ?_?), which means that it can only really either Revenge kill or force something out to provide momentum. It's still viable, and IMHO should rise a rank, but it's not particularly outstanding in the current metagame.

gamer boy's point is valid in how Scizor can be swapped in in certain certain scenarios, though I think it would me more telling if we asked someone like AM on why it did not rise, for he probably knew why it did not rise when the votes were counted.

 

[Taliheim]

Scizor can very easily sub in with the mega's set if u need another mega, which is the main thing which warrants its going up. While m-zor is better in most roles, if u need another mega to fill a weakness you can very easily give it Lefties/LO/Iron Plate and call it a day. That is what is so good about Scizor.

gamer boy's point is valid in how Scizor can be swapped in in certain certain scenarios, though I think it would me more telling if we asked someone like AM on why it did not rise, for he probably knew why it did not rise when the votes were counted.

Completely agreed, just didn't mention it since I didn't think it was relevant enough to mention.
This is what I get for trying to post something useful immediately after a 2-month-something break.

 

[BKC]

yea not like rotomw can volt switch and gain momentum anyway

I'm not denying this, but the point is that Clef is barely being worn down in the process, which is a big reason for why it's so good.

not like clefa is set up fodder for gliscor and talonflame which are extremely popular rn especially paired with sableye

I mean this was the case even at the end of XY, but sure. Half of what makes me like Clef so much is its ability to switch up its 4th move to handle these dudes since the first 3 are gonna be good almost no matter what, so you can run Ice Beam or... HP Rock if you're into that (Talon doesn't like Knock/Twave either!).

not like its completely useless against eye stall as they can trap with goth without even having to predict

I personally consider any team with Goth to be utter trash but fair point I guess! Glad you brought up Mega Sableye though since that's a new mon Clef loves smacking around.

not like every well built team has at least 2 bar 3 counters to this thing anyway

I feel like that's a slight exaggeration but fair. Regardless, I've found that Clef's ability to not get worn down lets it outlast these counters pretty easily.

not like its an extremely passive mon that can be played around very easily

I'm not sure I understand, what do you mean by playing around Clef? You can't exactly double switch on it to force hazards damage and can't capitalize on a switch because it resists Pursuit... if you mean take advantage of its presence to set up with something that scares it to beat the rest of the team, sure, but I could say the same for like Mega Altaria setting up on Keldeo.

not like ice beam clef is extremely matchup dependant (i wont say its garbage, but it actually is)

Well, that's what's great about it... its first 3 moves are so potent that it can afford to run a ~matchup dependent~ move in the last slot to help itself out!

not like offense gained many checks and counters as well with the transition to oras most notably serperior and metagross

I'm not denying that they check it real great and all (although I'd personally be a lot less enthusiastic about switch Serp into Clef than you seem to be, not nearly as much as MegaGross anyway) but don't pretend that Clef can't cripple them if it chooses to do so while staying alive easily, which is a big part of my argument!

not like most megas shit on it, see mega garde sd mega hera, both chars, mega bro venu pinsir beedrill and swamp

Notice how Clef can mess with all those switchins somehow without breaking a sweat (Twave alone owns all of them except Slowbro and Swampert!). Not to mention it does pretty damn well against some other new (and I daresay more relevant than the vast majority of the ones you listed) megas such as the aforementioned Diancie, Lopunny, Altaria and the aforementioned Sableye!

cant even switch safely on mega piggy lol, but w/e

Does this mean Pidgeot? Well sure, but I don't think there are many non-Chansey (who sucks) non-flying resists I'd want switching into him...

 

[North Gate]

Oh, you mistook my post for a reason for it to rank up. No, I was just mentioning a set that I've used personally, I personally believe that Clefable should stay A+ because of how easily it's exploited depending on ability, and needs to be a max health - which is harder than it looks - to check what it's supposed to, and since it has low stats - which is not a main argument point -, it can be killed rather easily, even with mixed bulk. With the raise of steels it hurts it, maybe if Mega Metagross wasn't in the tier, I could see it in S, although Babiri Fire Blast variants of Clefable do decent damage to MMeta.

Imo, it should stay in A+, but I can see it in S.

 

[Srn]

I'm not denying this, but the point is that Clef is barely being worn down in the process, which is a big reason for why it's so good.

I mean this was the case even at the end of XY, but sure. Half of what makes me like Clef so much is its ability to switch up its 4th move to handle these dudes since the first 3 are gonna be good almost no matter what, so you can run Ice Beam or... HP Rock if you're into that (Talon doesn't like Knock/Twave either!).

I personally consider any team with Goth to be utter trash but fair point I guess! Glad you brought up Mega Sableye though since that's a new mon Clef loves smacking around.

I feel like that's a slight exaggeration but fair. Regardless, I've found that Clef's ability to not get worn down lets it outlast these counters pretty easily.

I'm not sure I understand, what do you mean by playing around Clef? You can't exactly double switch on it to force hazards damage and can't capitalize on a switch because it resists Pursuit... if you mean take advantage of its presence to set up with something that scares it to beat the rest of the team, sure, but I could say the same for like Mega Altaria setting up on Keldeo.

Well, that's what's great about it... its first 3 moves are so potent that it can afford to run a ~matchup dependent~ move in the last slot to help itself out!

I'm not denying that they check it real great and all (although I'd personally be a lot less enthusiastic about switch Serp into Clef than you seem to be, not nearly as much as MegaGross anyway) but don't pretend that Clef can't cripple them if it chooses to do so while staying alive easily, which is a big part of my argument!

Notice how Clef can mess with all those switchins somehow without breaking a sweat (Twave alone owns all of them except Slowbro and Swampert!). Not to mention it does pretty damn well against some other new (and I daresay more relevant than the vast majority of the ones you listed) megas such as the aforementioned Diancie, Lopunny, Altaria and the aforementioned Sableye!

Does this mean Pidgeot? Well sure, but I don't think there are many non-Chansey (who sucks) non-flying resists I'd want switching into him...

Well you tend to be throwing around the argument that this magical fourth slot is all clefable needs to succeed, but doesn't this kind of sound like 4mss? You want t-wave to be able to touch 80% of your counters (see mmeta, gengar, etc), you want knock off just to be annoying in general, you want CM to boost, you need moonblast/healing no matter what, you want ice beam to hit gliscor, you want tbolt/hp rock to beat talon, you want stored power to break past heatran and hit poisons, you want flamethrower to hit steels in general, you want focus blast to nail other steels, AND EVEN AFTER ALL THIS, pokemon like tentacruel, mega venusaur, and jirachi are still pretty much hard counters, and I'm sure i'm missing a few.

It's kinda like infernape. Nape has gunk shot for altaria/azu, thunderpunch for gyarados, stone edge for char-x/talon, gknot for rhyperior/quagsire, hp ice for garchomp/lando-t, mach punch to have priority, swords dance/nasty plot to break walls, etc. And even after all of that, lati@s are still pretty much flawless counters. Does it have the potential to annoy its checks? yes. Can it do it all at once? No. Are its moveslots matchup-based+require team support? yes. A lot like clefable.

and yeah, clefable's pretty annoying with its t-wave bs and such, but as long as you let one pokemon get paralyzed it often ends there; it's not exactly spreading para when i can just keep switching my tenta/heatran/ferro/etc in repeatedly to absorb thunder waves.

You also mentoin that clefable does well against diancie, lopuny, and mega altaria.
what?
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only does clefable lose to every one of these with only about 10%-15% prior damage, each of these guys have ways of beating it even at full health.
Mega altaria sets up a dd as clefable switches in, and gets 2hko'd as it fails to OHKO with moonblast. T-wave can be dealt with via heal bell or refresh. Hyper voice cleanly 2hko's physically defensive variants.
Mega Diancie can set up a Cm as it switches in and 2hko with moonblast safely in every situation, and it often doesn't even need that. (yeah your beloved 4th moveslot doesn't do shit here)
Mega Lopunny is a little tricker, but if you're MG it can come in on a soft-boiled, encore you into it, power-up punch, and eventually 2hko with following returns. It can't even counter that.

This is what i mean; if its stats were higher then maybe it'd be able to take these attacks better and wouldn't need to left in fucking pristine shape to do anything.
MG maybe able to "outlast" its checks (of which there are often several), but its very easy to pressure and overwhelm. Unaware may be able to take on boosting mons better, but its far easier to wear down, and its recovery blows. Clefable cannot be both a great blanket check and difficult to wear down.

The 4th moveslot makes clefable annoying. But that's it. Not metagame defining. Not threatening. Not teambuilding-altering. Not S-rank worthy. Just annoying.

 

[Shruggy]

Well you tend to be throwing around the argument that this magical fourth slot is all clefable needs to succeed, but doesn't this kind of sound like 4mss? You want t-wave to be able to touch 80% of your counters (see mmeta, gengar, etc), you want knock off just to be annoying in general, you want CM to boost, you need moonblast/healing no matter what, you want ice beam to hit gliscor, you want tbolt/hp rock to beat talon, you want stored power to break past heatran and hit poisons, you want flamethrower to hit steels in general, you want focus blast to nail other steels, AND EVEN AFTER ALL THIS, pokemon like tentacruel, mega venusaur, and jirachi are still pretty much hard counters, and I'm sure i'm missing a few.

It's kinda like infernape. Nape has gunk shot for altaria/azu, thunderpunch for gyarados, stone edge for char-x/talon, gknot for rhyperior/quagsire, hp ice for garchomp/lando-t, mach punch to have priority, swords dance/nasty plot to break walls, etc. And even after all of that, lati@s are still pretty much flawless counters. Does it have the potential to annoy its checks? yes. Can it do it all at once? No. Are its moveslots matchup-based+require team support? yes. A lot like clefable.

and yeah, clefable's pretty annoying with its t-wave bs and such, but as long as you let one pokemon get paralyzed it often ends there; it's not exactly spreading para when i can just keep switching my tenta/heatran/ferro/etc in repeatedly to absorb thunder waves.

You also mentoin that clefable does well against diancie, lopuny, and mega altaria.
what?
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only does clefable lose to every one of these with only about 10%-15% prior damage, each of these guys have ways of beating it even at full health.
Mega altaria sets up a dd as clefable switches in, and gets 2hko'd as it fails to OHKO with moonblast. T-wave can be dealt with via heal bell or refresh. Hyper voice cleanly 2hko's physically defensive variants.
Mega Diancie can set up a Cm as it switches in and 2hko with moonblast safely in every situation, and it often doesn't even need that. (yeah your beloved 4th moveslot doesn't do shit here)
Mega Lopunny is a little tricker, but if you're MG it can come in on a soft-boiled, encore you into it, power-up punch, and eventually 2hko with following returns. It can't even counter that.

This is what i mean; if its stats were higher then maybe it'd be able to take these attacks better and wouldn't need to left in fucking pristine shape to do anything.
MG maybe able to "outlast" its checks (of which there are often several), but its very easy to pressure and overwhelm. Unaware may be able to take on boosting mons better, but its far easier to wear down, and its recovery blows. Clefable cannot be both a great blanket check and difficult to wear down.

The 4th moveslot makes clefable annoying. But that's it. Not metagame defining. Not threatening. Not teambuilding-altering. Not S-rank worthy. Just annoying.

Correct me if in wrong sir but i think the point he is making is that clefable is the complete opposite of 4mss. It only needs 3 moves to be completely successful not 4 or more. The fact that with just 3 moves (softboil/cm/moonblast) he can do perfectly fine then having an extra move slot to customize to have whatever you want in there - be it twave/knock off/rocks etc etc is what makes clefable such a good mon. There arent many mons that could get by perfectly well with just 3 moveslots and then have the complete luxury of so many coverage options, the 4th is like an added bonus to do what you want with completely.

 

[North Gate]

Correct me if in wrong sir but i think the point he is making is that clefable is the complete opposite of 4mss. It only needs 3 moves to be completely successful not 4 or more. The fact that with just 3 moves (softboil/cm/moonblast) he can do perfectly fine then having an extra move slot to customize to have whatever you want in there - be it twave/knock off/rocks etc etc is what makes clefable such a good mon. There arent many mons that could get by perfectly well with just 3 moveslots and then have the complete luxury of so many coverage options, the 4th is like an added bonus to do what you want with completely.

Uh dude, even if it gets to +6 I don't think Moonblast will do be jack to Rachi, Venu, Tenta, all who actually still wall Clefable to shit after all coverage, and Rachi takes shit from Flamethrower at a first couple of boosts while donking you with Iron Head. The point is that Clef's fourth moveslot is managable but even after that a bunch of shit can still wall it after it has 4 moves. Although as AM pointed out in the last thread, 4MSS isn't exactly the best argument to warrant for something like this, although it is a big thing. But since it is team specific, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

4MSS is a bad argument and people should really stop using it to legitimize a point honestly when it's always a team specific asset. I'm pretty indifferent with some of the previous noms but the ones that keep bringing up 4MSS are just silly at this point lol. Just thought I would point this out before someone flips their lid why something moves up, down, or stays in ranking and just assumes this becomes a real point that holds some sort of strong weight. I'm more than likely going to not take points like these seriously if that's the foundation of your argument, just pointing this out from my end.

Fetched from page 114 on the OU VR V2.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ad-v2-check-post-2500-pg-100.3526596/page-114

 

[JoshHarmony]

I would like to nominate Mega Pidgeot for B-/B
I personally feel like (insert random type) spam has always been a solid strategy. Bird spam though has always taken the cake by giving you a reasonably solid layout in team structure to follow. With ORAS (and specifically the prominence of Mega-Metagross) I feel like bird spam took a hit. Lando-T also became incredibly popular acting as a solid bird check seeing as bird spam usually consisted of mainly M-Pinsir, Staraptor, and Talonflame. Now what do these mons share? They're PHYSICAL attackers. Mega Pidgeot works as a solid, consistent member of a bird spam team by firing off 100% accurate Hurricanes, U-turning to keep up any potential volt-turn cores which work beauitfully on birdspam, and catching/overpowering mons like Skarmory that Bird spam struggled to beat before. That coupled with a natural chance of confusion easily swaying battles in your favor makes Mega Pidgeot a powerful mon for B- if not B imo.

 

[Clone]

Aight. Long ass post incoming as to why Clefable should stay in A+.

There are three things I mainly want to cover with this post: Clefable's stats, its roles (ie versatility), and its "splashability."

So lemme start off with clefable's stats, as they are the biggest hindrance to it. I'll be focusing on its 95/73/90 defenses since they are the most important when it comes to what it does. Quite frankly, they're shit. For a defensive mon, Clefable is lacking. Really lacking. It has less overall bulk than Keldeo. Let that sink in. Now let's take this bulk into real game scenarios. Clefable is used to check prominent threats in the tier such as Latios, Keldeo, Thundurus, Raikou, Mega Manectric, and others. It has two main EV spreads — physically defensive (for CM), and mixed defense (for pure support roles). The problem with these is that if Clefable is using the wrong spread, the very things it checks beat it. PhysDef loses to ever special attacker it's supposed to check bar Latios, while the mixed defense sets can be broken through by naturally strong physical attackers. Furthermore, the hits that clef do live are doing around 40-49% on average. Sure, you're avoiding a 2HKO so you're all good right? Nope, not really. Clef has terrible speed, and on top of this, literally any prior damage makes it a liability. Think of it like this. Clef switches into Manectric so it can wall it, except Clefable ends up eating a volt switch. Now, a Clefable check is brought in, forcing clef out. Guess what? Clefable can no longer switch into Manectric because t is not 2HKO ed by thunderbolt on the switch in next time. This is what is holding Clefable back from S. It can't reliable check things throughout the match because its stats are too low to be able to do so consistently. I will admit that magic guard and softboiled definitely help with this and mitigate this issue. However, what if you're using unaware? Now you're fucked by stealth rock and spikes and burns and toxic and everything else. Clef can't check half the shit it's supposed to when it's taking sr damage. On top of this, Clefable cannot simply take on the powerful attackers of the tier (the wallbreakers). Mega Garde, Megagross, Landorus, Specs Keldeo, Bisharp, Diggersby, Medicham, etc all 2HKO it with a neutral hit. For a Pokémon to be S rank under the support category, this is simply unacceptable. Yes Clefable does have teammates. However, having to rely on teammates to check the most powerful threats in the tier is not a good argument for those that want it to raise. I realize that bulk alone does not define a mon, but when you're talking about a defensive Pokémon, it is one of the most important aspects about it. Clefable simply doesn't have it.

Next, I'll delve into the versatility. Clefable has three "main" sets: MG CM, Support (includes SR, cleric, etc), and Unaware wall. That's really it. Sure you have lure sets but they're really not that great. Yeah they lure in shit but this variant of clef dies so fucking fast it's not even funny. Plus it's not even that strong (lol @ base 95 SpAtk). Anyways, MG CM is arguably clefs best set. And it's a damn good one. It's easily A+ worthy and I will not deny that at all. However, it's not S rank worthy. Despite the fact that it is an excellent sweeper, it still has its stops, and those stops stop it in its tracks. It's problem lies in the fact that it it really slow and relies on at least two boosts to deal any meaningful damage. This, coupled with the fact that it only has one coverage slot (which il get to in a minute), means that no matter what, it will be walled by something. It is also shut down by taunt and is revenge killed pretty easily by the abundant steel types in the tier. Now, Clefable does have its ways of getting past certain checks. T wave fucks over faster things that need their speed, but it still leaves clef walled by Gliscor, and it doesn't entirely stop steels from killing you (you still die to them). Flamethrower means any non Heatran steel can't safely switch in, but then you have mons like Gliscor and Talon that best you. Ice beam is cool until you realize that steels and mega Venu still beat you, and TBolt is ass lol. It doesn't even 2HKO SpDef Talon w/o a boost, and roost removes the weakness + taunt is a thing. Also BKC why would you run SR (or HWish) CM? Like that's literally the worst thing you can do because you're literally inviting every Talonflame, Scizor, Manaphy, Skarmory, etc to come in and set up in your face. I respect you as a player but honestly that is a terrible set and I don't get why you're even bringing it up. Anyways clef relies on its teammates to take on its counters. Normally this is a weak argument, but you have to consider that Clefable has a shiton of checks and counters because of how prepared the meta is for it. Every competent team will have ways of dealing with it because otherwise you're asking to get swept.

The support set can do A crapload of things like cleric, lay sr, t wave, what have you. However, this set in particular is extremely passive and cannot really do much back to its foes aside from maybe para them or spam recover. It is also complete setup bait unless it runs unaware, which leaves it susceptible to hazards and as I said earlier hazards fuck it up completely. I will also touch on unaware here. It's a good set, what with it countering dd alt, tg mana, etc. however, while it does wall setup sweepers it can't wall natural wallbreakers, especially special attackers. Furthermore, hazards and toxic wear this set down, especially when it has to run either wish tect or moonlight for recovery. This either gives it opponents free turns or puts it on a timer. And in longer matches, the latter means that clef is a liability after 6 turns of moonlight (because now x setup sweeper can stay in and force it to use its last two recovery moves then break clef and sweep the team). Let's also not forget that clef can no longer switch into Keldeo or Manaphy with impunity anymore why? Because scald is a thing. Even unaware CM sets aren't perfect (quite frankly this set is extremely overrated and quite shit in practice). If they get burned they're done for because they're put on a timer because of burn and limited recovery. Add on the fact that this variant is extremely hard pressed for moveslots (if it wants a coverage move, it has 8 PP of recovery. If it wants wish tect, every steel type ever walls it bar Bisharp. If it goes for heal bell, literally anything that resist Moonblast and can status / deal meaningful damage to it can beat it). Support sets are good, but are not nearly as good as the MG CM set and in no way S worthy.

Finally, it's splashability. Is this honestly a reason to move it up? I mean I don't think it is. Despite being a great glue mom that can hold teams together, clefs ability to fit on many balance teams isn't a reason to move it up. It's a glue mon, and a damn good one at that. But that doesn't make it s rank. By nature if being a glue mon, it's forced to hold a team together, which means it can be overloaded at times. This isn't a good thing because then it's incredibly easy to pressure with a competent team and it will be broken eventually.

I get it. Clef is a cut above the rest of the A+ ranks because of how good it is. But it's not S rank worthy. The only way it would be is if there was an S- rank and then it could go in there alongside Keldeo. But that's been struck down repeatedly so I won't bother talking about that anymore. Clef simply isn't meta defining like the rest of the s ranks. It's fairly easy to keep it in line both in the team builder and in battle. It's strength comes from its utility, but that's really not a reason to move it up.

TL;DR keep clef in A+.

 

[Bluwing]

clone thx for posting a huge wall off nothing, gawn.

how is even clefables stats a problem for it? it checks what it needs to check and outlast whatever it needs to outlast. it has 0 opportunity cost, amazing typing, excellent movepool, amazing abilities, superb splashability, it can sweep and it can act as a wallbreaker (life orb set). it simply got everything an s ranked mon should have, there is no reason for it not move up so idk why u even bother wasting ur time by writing a huge af posts about it staying in a+ ._.

 

[Clone]

clone thx for posting a huge wall off nothing, gawn.

how is even clefables stats a problem for it? it checks what it needs to check and outlast whatever it needs to outlast. it has 0 opportunity cost, amazing typing, excellent movepool, amazing abilities, superb splashability, it can sweep and it can act as a wallbreaker (life orb set). it simply got everything an s ranked mon should have, there is no reason for it not move up so idk why u even bother wasting ur time by writing a huge af posts about it staying in a+ ._.

how is it outlasting spdef skarm, gliscor, talonflame, mega scizor w/ roost etc? they all switch into it with impunity. unless they get bopped by a coverage move but even then a competent team will probably have a secondary way of dealing with it (+ talon, skarm, and gliscor take anything anyways bar a boost (except ice beam clefable but thats so rare and not that good that it has a slew of other problems)). and this is assuming the mg set. unaware sets arent outlasting anything lol. if you bring up teammates its a two way street dude. and i bring up the stats because they hinder the unaware set so much and while mg fares better, its still getting pressured to shit by having to spam softboiled to stay healthy.

 

[Bluwing]

it outlasts skarm with flamethrower, or even smacks it hard at +1 if u want to whirlwind it out, nice check mate. talonflame gets bopped by twave variants, gliscor lose to ice beam variants (gliscor is also rly uncommon atm) and scizor gets smacked by fire blast or flamethrower and can't ko back with bullet punch. they all also lose to last mon scenarios with the right coverage move, except talonflame which oh actually lose to tbolt which is getting some use atm.

 

[Merritt]

Clefable has exactly one move for coverage and depending on what it runs, gets walled by common threats. If you run fire coverage then Heatran is 7HKOed when you're at +6 (!!!) even though it really can't touch you. If it's got roar though then Clefable is complete dead weight against SpD Heatran.

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 18-21 (4.6 - 5.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever

That's not outdamaging leftovers recovery. Heatran is gaining health off you. Same thing goes for Ice Beam. Even with SE coverage Clefable is incredibly weak, due to its need to run massive defensive investment to make up for its poor defenses for a tanky mon.

Sure, Clefable can get past a few of its counters. But for the not insignificant number who can take most of Clefable's coverage Clefable needs support to get past. The other S-rank mons require little support or provide consistent support for so much of the meta. Clefable is incredibly good, but it's not S rank in my opinion.

 

[Srn]

Why is outlasting your counters even an argument lol. You strictly depend on your team and your plays in order to do this, and while not taking hazards damage is nice, this really shouldn't be considered a huge plus. I can keep a feebas healthy enough as long as hazards are off the field and I don't let it take any hits, and I can use lures and whatever other bullshit I need to get rid of feebas's counters too. So what? This applies to every pokemon, and the only plus clefable has over everything else is MG. Nothing else.

Besides, clefable is 2hko'd by practically everything with a boost under its belt or is remotely strong, so idk why we're pulling up the "omg it has mg it lives everything" argument here; it straddles the 2hko border for anything it supposedly checks regardless. Hazard immunity really doesn't make a difference when its hardly bulky anyway. It's survivability is being sorely overrated.

 

[Clone]

it outlasts skarm with flamethrower, or even smacks it hard at +1 if u want to whirlwind it out, nice check mate. talonflame gets bopped by twave variants, gliscor lose to ice beam variants (gliscor is also rly uncommon atm) and scizor gets smacked by fire blast or flamethrower and can't ko back with bullet punch. they all also lose to last mon scenarios with the right coverage move, except talonflame which oh actually lose to tbolt which is getting some use atm.

0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 112-134 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- 33.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

meanwhile Skarm has taunt, Iron Head, and whirlwind. Assuming you get a CM up you dont even guarantee a 2HKO (84% chance so i guess u have /somewhat/ of a point), so skarm still taunts and wins. and normally skarm is coming in on a softboiled anyways so clef is forced out and the cycle repeats untill one player gains an advantage. this matchup is so match specific that whatever you argue i can argue against, and 90% of the time skarm still wins because thats why spdef has so much usage now. its a clef check and a damn good one at that.

Talonflame still beats TWave clef unless it gets severe parahax, and that shouldnt be taken into account when dealing with C&Cs. also: 0 SpA Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 112-134 (31.1 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery TBolt clef loses to spdef talon lol. talon literally SDs, roosts, then continues. and just for fun: +1 0 SpA Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 170-200 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. granted sr changes this but still. talon aint losing unless sr or its rly worn down (and even then clef has to be at +1 and sr up for it to have a shot at winning with tbolt!).

Gliscor is somewhat uncommon rn, sure, but that doesnt matter ?_? its still a solid ass counter to non ice beam clef and sds up on it all day erry day. ice beam is literally only for gliscor and given that its "also rly uncommon atm" (said by yours truly), whats the point of running it if youd benefit from another coverage move 99% of the time anyways? even if you do run it its not exactly hard to scout for it if youre that paranoid given that roosting avoids a 2HKO, even at +1 (+1 0 SpA Clefable Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 170-202 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal <- calced with no flying type). gliscor wins unless u hide the ice beam and hide it well.

Yeah scizor can lose but it still lives one flamethrower when bulky so if it is a last mon scenario bulky mega scizor actually wins by SDing up (+2 bp ohkoes), and offensive sets win if clef has just a bit of prior damage (35% aint much for a last mon scenario unless you played really badly. and if clef is carrying any other coverage move it straight up loses lol.

last mon scenarios dont mean shit because theyre just literally the course of the game and this argument holds no value in any serious debate. what happens in one match is different than what happens in another.

 

[North Gate]

Dude the big problem with Clefable is that while according to you it 'checks what it needs to check' but it's poor stats make it almost impossible to tank hits with it unless it has max bulk on that side, leaving it open to hits from one side, and half the shit it's supposed to check destroy it with prior damage, even very little, and it takes only a very small amount of exploit on it's abilities to really cause that, half the stuff you're supposed to blanket check destroys you with prior chip damage, and considering the state of this metagame. -SR every game, Toxic spam, set up sweepers on every team- even MG sets can fall before some powerful set up sweepers. Clefable is really good, better than some of the A+ shit, but imo it's still just fit for A+, but maybe if some of the steel types weren't around, it could be in S.